CMWW is literally the only reason Wizards are included in MP10 uber groups.
PS, anyone who says that you can gear CMWW for less than a million obviously hasn't tried to do it. Just like everything else, you CAN do it for under a mil, but not well. My source alone costs upwards of 50M and that's a cheap one.
Doing CM at the 2.00001 breakpoint isn't doing CM ubers at mp10
Doing CM with 40k dps isn't doing CM ubers at mp10
PS, anyone who says that you can gear CMWW for less than a million obviously hasn't tried to do it.
There are many guides (both written and on Youtube) about gearing up CMWW with low budget. I remember one CMWW MP10 guide for 1 million gold budget a while ago. Sure, it wasn't perfect, but it somewhat works.
Btw, with a 50m source you're way out of the low budget discussion and seem to be unable to think in smaller numbers. CMWW works on MP10 due to its skill mechanics, not because your gear is so awesome. With awesome gear you can run any spec on MP10, as Jaetch showed (before deciding to get his gear level down to one that is more comparable to us mortals' gear again ;-)).
With awesome gear you can run any spec on MP10, as Jaetch showed (before deciding to get his gear level down to one that is more comparable to us mortals' gear again ;-)).
But now I'm ranked #1 in the U.S. for wizard 1v1 PvP score
OT: Again and again, CM/WW is just proven to be the most "effective" (not always "efficient," i.e. 1 million gold budget CM/WW builds) way for wizards to handle high MP levels. At all gear levels, some aspect of CM will be required to make builds work on high MPs. Even if I run Archon on MP10, I will need CM to remove the cooldown because there is just no way to consistently make Archon last 2 minutes at a time.
There are many guides (both written and on Youtube) about gearing up CMWW with low budget. I remember one CMWW MP10 guide for 1 million gold budget a while ago. Sure, it wasn't perfect, but it somewhat works.
Btw, with a 50m source you're way out of the low budget discussion and seem to be unable to think in smaller numbers. CMWW works on MP10 due to its skill mechanics, not because your gear is so awesome. With awesome gear you can run any spec on MP10, as Jaetch showed (before deciding to get his gear level down to one that is more comparable to us mortals' gear again ;-)).
I'm sure you just *sound* like a jerk...
Obviously CM "works" under 1m. Every build "works" without dedicated equipment. Getting to 18 Apoc, 40+crit, 2.8-3 AS, all while maintaining EHP and DPS is NOT CHEAP. It's not a "disability to think in small numbers" it's a request for people to stop calling CMWW a loser Wiz build for people who don't have money and/or ability to do a "real" build. The exact quote I was responding to was "Turns out, the wizard class has a glitch where you can do MP10 even for less than a million gold" which isn't even close to true unless you're running with 3 300k+ dps tanks that don't mind that you can't stunlock Mag or survive a hit from any of the ubers, or stand in ghom's stank, etc, much less doing MP10 Ubers solo.
Okay, let's not derail this thread by getting in a personal fight I'm not even interested in. I think the core of our posts are about the same - it's possible to survive on MP10 thanks to CMWW mechanics (that's what I said) and it might be possible to kill things on MP10 with these low budget builds (that's what has been shown) but it takes so long, like literally ages, such that it can't really be called a "working solution", let alone being used to farm MP10 (that's what you say and I totally agree).
The one and only thing that I would've liked to be seen is a nerf of one of the 4 things you need for CMWW (DS for survivability, FN for stunlock, CM for resetting the timers, IAS with a working spell for proccing CM so often). Sure, there would be a shitstorm on Blizzard, but right now the low budget players and people with an equipment worth around a few dozens million gold (yes, these people exist) will force any wizard in their group to go CMWW for high MP and/or ubers because it's such an easy mode button and their only realistic chance on getting stuff on these levels done. Therefore, in my opinion, CMWW as of now is nothing but a huge help for bypassing the gear hunt that Diablo has ever been about in the first place.
Which brings us back to the thread's title - yeah, CMWW is the only way to do high MPs unless you have godly gear. If you have godly gear and want to kill things in less than a few hours, CM (not necessarily CMWW, but CM) is mandatory - like Jaetch and maka said. However, "is CMWW the only way to high MP" (topic)? Maybe, but maybe you can also get your EHP to levels where you don't mind to be hit by enemies and you're able to kill them with Blizzard (especially once it's buffed after the patch), Disintegrate, or some similar spell that does not rely on CM procs. It will probably never be as efficient as CM(WW), but it might work once you have MP10 endgame gear.
Well diablo was always about farming in the most efficient way and by no means CMww wizard that is low budget can do it efficiently at mp7-10 yes they can tank and kill elites after one hour but does he do it efficiently no....
On the other side my wiz cost me around 250 M and still doing mp1 in archon is waaaayy better then running mp8 upwards. because my survivality and dmg are lacking and this gear was build for quarter bilion gold...
Well diablo was always about farming in the most efficient way and by no means CMww wizard that is low budget can do it efficiently at mp7-10 yes they can tank and kill elites after one hour but does he do it efficiently no....
On the other side my wiz cost me around 250 M and still doing mp1 in archon is waaaayy better then running mp8 upwards. because my survivality and dmg are lacking and this gear was build for quarter bilion gold...
I think the whole point of people who play cmww is to cheat into a higher mp than you could normally handle. While you're right that it's more efficient to farm on lower mps, it's probably not more efficient to farm keys or do uber fights on lower mps. Personally I can fly through mp2-3 solo, but I can't handle mp8-10 solo with archon. I have several friends and family members that are newer to the game and don't have the dps/ehp to handle mp7 but I can "cheat" them into mp7 with cmww. I've taken down ubers at mp9 with myself a 3.01 AS 100k dps CMWW with three characters who had an average dps of 90k. I think that's the problem with it and I agree with Bagstone's rather simple, elegant solution... make the entry cost higher.
The proliferation of CMWW is probably why this thread was created in the first place and I feel like it really signifies the exact problem... I really don't think it's possible to do high mp solo with wizard unless you are godly equipped.
You certainly can gear a mp10 cm build for relatively cheap. I made mine (3aps with stretch time,127k stat sheet dps, able to do mp10 uber runs) for about 150 to 200 mil. Initially I built it for under 100mil, only reason for the increase in cost was for higher dps.
PS, anyone who says that you can gear CMWW for less than a million obviously hasn't tried to do it. Just like everything else, you CAN do it for under a mil, but not well. My source alone costs upwards of 50M and that's a cheap one.
Doing CM at the 2.00001 breakpoint isn't doing CM ubers at mp10
Doing CM with 40k dps isn't doing CM ubers at mp10
There are many guides (both written and on Youtube) about gearing up CMWW with low budget. I remember one CMWW MP10 guide for 1 million gold budget a while ago. Sure, it wasn't perfect, but it somewhat works.
Btw, with a 50m source you're way out of the low budget discussion and seem to be unable to think in smaller numbers. CMWW works on MP10 due to its skill mechanics, not because your gear is so awesome. With awesome gear you can run any spec on MP10, as Jaetch showed (before deciding to get his gear level down to one that is more comparable to us mortals' gear again ;-)).
But now I'm ranked #1 in the U.S. for wizard 1v1 PvP score
OT: Again and again, CM/WW is just proven to be the most "effective" (not always "efficient," i.e. 1 million gold budget CM/WW builds) way for wizards to handle high MP levels. At all gear levels, some aspect of CM will be required to make builds work on high MPs. Even if I run Archon on MP10, I will need CM to remove the cooldown because there is just no way to consistently make Archon last 2 minutes at a time.
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I'm sure you just *sound* like a jerk...
Obviously CM "works" under 1m. Every build "works" without dedicated equipment. Getting to 18 Apoc, 40+crit, 2.8-3 AS, all while maintaining EHP and DPS is NOT CHEAP. It's not a "disability to think in small numbers" it's a request for people to stop calling CMWW a loser Wiz build for people who don't have money and/or ability to do a "real" build. The exact quote I was responding to was "Turns out, the wizard class has a glitch where you can do MP10 even for less than a million gold" which isn't even close to true unless you're running with 3 300k+ dps tanks that don't mind that you can't stunlock Mag or survive a hit from any of the ubers, or stand in ghom's stank, etc, much less doing MP10 Ubers solo.
The one and only thing that I would've liked to be seen is a nerf of one of the 4 things you need for CMWW (DS for survivability, FN for stunlock, CM for resetting the timers, IAS with a working spell for proccing CM so often). Sure, there would be a shitstorm on Blizzard, but right now the low budget players and people with an equipment worth around a few dozens million gold (yes, these people exist) will force any wizard in their group to go CMWW for high MP and/or ubers because it's such an easy mode button and their only realistic chance on getting stuff on these levels done. Therefore, in my opinion, CMWW as of now is nothing but a huge help for bypassing the gear hunt that Diablo has ever been about in the first place.
Which brings us back to the thread's title - yeah, CMWW is the only way to do high MPs unless you have godly gear. If you have godly gear and want to kill things in less than a few hours, CM (not necessarily CMWW, but CM) is mandatory - like Jaetch and maka said. However, "is CMWW the only way to high MP" (topic)? Maybe, but maybe you can also get your EHP to levels where you don't mind to be hit by enemies and you're able to kill them with Blizzard (especially once it's buffed after the patch), Disintegrate, or some similar spell that does not rely on CM procs. It will probably never be as efficient as CM(WW), but it might work once you have MP10 endgame gear.
On the other side my wiz cost me around 250 M and still doing mp1 in archon is waaaayy better then running mp8 upwards. because my survivality and dmg are lacking and this gear was build for quarter bilion gold...
I think the whole point of people who play cmww is to cheat into a higher mp than you could normally handle. While you're right that it's more efficient to farm on lower mps, it's probably not more efficient to farm keys or do uber fights on lower mps. Personally I can fly through mp2-3 solo, but I can't handle mp8-10 solo with archon. I have several friends and family members that are newer to the game and don't have the dps/ehp to handle mp7 but I can "cheat" them into mp7 with cmww. I've taken down ubers at mp9 with myself a 3.01 AS 100k dps CMWW with three characters who had an average dps of 90k. I think that's the problem with it and I agree with Bagstone's rather simple, elegant solution... make the entry cost higher.
The proliferation of CMWW is probably why this thread was created in the first place and I feel like it really signifies the exact problem... I really don't think it's possible to do high mp solo with wizard unless you are godly equipped.