Anyone else's head spinning with all these skills/rune combinations?
Along with most of you, I have been trying to study the wizard's skills and rune possibilities in conjunction with complementing passive abilities. After a few days of it, and after noticing so many different 'highly suggested' builds, I have a few questions regarding your opinion on the general theory and concept behind skill/rune selections. Please forgive my ignorance if any questions are redundant or just plain stupid.
1. I've been seeing indications of 120 Arcane Power as the starting amount for Wizards. Is that correct? (Leaving out any passives/actives that increase AP pool)
2. What is the default regeneration rate of Arcane Power in Diablo 3?
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3. For heavy AP casters, is having a cheap signature spell to regenerate AP a necessity? Is Familiar with 270 AP/min sufficient, even coupled with Astral Presence passive?
....Or is having a skill that decreases AP costs by X amount more attractive?
4. If playing exclusively with others (no soloing), could one afford to roll a 'weaker' wizard and concentrate on damage-dealing spells and AP-regenerating spells while passing up on armor/defensive skills? Would it not be advantageous to have a very powerful, although weak, wizard at the back of the pack doing massive damage?
----
5. In summary, what are your guidelines and suggested necessary components of the following build types:
- A 'glass cannon' wizard dealing massive damage
- A 'support class' wizard capable of debuffing enemies and controlling battlefield
- A stronger, up-close and personal wizard that is balanced with both damage output and defense
1. No it's 100.
2. 12.5 per sec
3. I don't see a reason not to have a Golden Sig spell to regen AP. IMO Golden Storm Armor isn't as good as Indigo Energy Armor. (20% boost to your stat that reduces all damage by a flat %, plus +40 AP)
4. Yes. A wizard focused on groups could afford to channel Crimson Disintegrate whereas a solo wizard would struggle. In general any channel spell is going to shine in multi player and be weaker solo. Keep in mind there's no real reason to have more than 3-4 damage spells.
5. I threw these builds together -really- fast.
I wondered about the amount of Arcane power too, I was never planning on doing meteor but if arcane power really is stuck at 100 then I'm going on my main plan with Storm armor with gold rune so every spell I cast is neutral on ap and the rest you already know.
I don't know where I saw that regen was 12 ap a second but I have seen the same thing I think it was 12.5 when I saw it though too. I mentioned it when I threw Power Hungry over the cliff.
I love Rof and you know that, but disintegrate uses less mana, RoF with Storm armor is above the mana regen cut off.... and disintegrate hits more targets.... Even with RoF and storm armor it takes 22 ap, the most you can regen so far is 18.5... I don't know why he chose it, but Disintegrate with Crimson would always be my first choice, and it comes sooner in the game
Just curious, why choose Disintegrate over Ray of Frost?
Disintegrate - Crimson - 188-234 dmg/sec
Ray of Frost - Crimson - 369-434 dmg/sec
I've been seeing that selection a lot, am I missing some advantage to Dis versus RoF ?
Lol good point, I havn't researched the wizard a lot, but I'd take an instant beam that does more damage and slows enemies over an instant beam that does less damage with no CC. Strange
Edit : Ahh nvm, from what i've read dis is a pierce and costs less ap.
12.5 natural regen X 60 seconds = 750 total regen
120 regen a minute from Astral P = 120 total regen
------------------------------------------------
870 total.
870
_______ = Regen of 14.5 arcane power a second without familiar.
60 seconds
Disintegrate (crimson ) with Storm Armor Gold rune = 13 mana lost a second.
Total of 1.5 arcane power gained every second, while firing disintegrate.
That means you can do it for 4 minutes until shield goes down, not impressive in the real word but in a game that is awesome...
RoF (Crimson) with Storm Armor = 22 Arcane Power lost a second, welcome to the titanic If it is true that wizards only have 100 arcane power in the game, (120 with astral presence). That is 2 casts of meteor and if your rocking Energy Armor, it is gone or soon will be.
I took Ray because you wanted a utility build, not a damage build. Ray puts up negative attack speed to reduce the damage your party is taking.
Disintegrate has 100% pierce, Ray only hits the target in front. Ray for bosses, Disintegrate for trash. Disintegrate can also slow everything on screen with the arcane passive while Ray only slows the front target it hits.
You can channel Disintegrate for 4 minutes, okay how is that useful? The speed AP regens, especially when coupled with a Golden Sig spell, not to mention the fact stuff should actually be dying means channeling for 4 minutes is meaningless. If you were in an arena with endless waves of enemies coming towards you it would be useful, but you're running around and not always fighting. Storm Armor gold is to reduce the cost of the massive spells like Hydra and Meteor, not the cheap spells.....
I guarantee you in game, side by side, another Wizard without your Storm Armor golden will be able to channel Disintegrate for exactly the same amount of time as you. Because there is always down time between fights where you will regen to full.
Hey I didn't say you should do it, just that it is an option if you feel so inclined, write your name in the snow with it I don't care. I'm sure there is time between fights..... but I'm talking about a game where your running around doing stuff, also if you cast another spell once, like say.... Meteor then go to disintegrate you can get your full mana back while the other person is running around dodging your Disintegrate, then calamity teleport on top of them and Impactful wave etc. etc.
Did you see the numbers ? If they are using Energy shield and your both hitting each other assuming neither one has diamond skin etc. they won't be able to cast it because they won't have mana, so my precious Storm armor is what a lot of people will be using and Ice armor doesn't work with non-melee hit with that good intentioned little Armor increase from Gold rune.
If it is true that wizards only have 100 arcane power in the game, (120 with astral presence). That is 2 casts of meteor and if your rocking Energy Armor, it is gone or soon will be.
With Astral Presence and Indigo Energy Armor I have 160 AP and 14.5 energy regen. If you use Meteor you'll use Golden Electrocute. Assuming a cast speed of 1 spell per second:
0 second - Meteor, 100 AP
1 second - Electrocute, 135 AP
2 second - Meteor, 75 AP
3 second - Electrocute, 110 AP
4 second - Meteor, 50 AP
5 second - Electrocute, 85 AP
6 second - Meteor, 25 AP
7 second - Electrocute, 60 AP
8 second - Meteor 0 AP
So in 8 seconds you can drop 5 meteors/hyrdas. If everything isn't dead after that much damage something is seriously wrong. Then by the time the next fight starts your regen would have brought you back. This is for solo too, in team fights enemies are going to be dying even faster.
While Golden Storm Armor may seem very powerful, when compared to Indigo Energy Armor, it really isn't.
Did you see the numbers ? If they are using Energy shield and your both hitting each other assuming neither one has diamond skin etc. they won't be able to cast it because they won't have mana, so my precious Storm armor is what a lot of people will be using and Ice armor doesn't work with non-melee hit with that good intentioned little Armor increase from Gold rune.
I never said the wizards were fighting. You're PvEing side by side.
Meteor is still clumsy spell with a vast range between high and low damage, and using Frost nova crimson rune or Arcane torrent Crimson rune would get more damage with Meteor... You can do electrocute dance but I don't think people will (in Arena but in the game, sure...? I wouldn't be surprised if it happened in a game but on arena there are only 2 - 4 enemies? Would they stand close and let you do this? I thought they were supposed to be running from the Meteor...
I have my doubts about that builds "stamina" against someone using DIAT or DIFrostNova...
Electric... you've already been stomped on the other forum posts? why you want seconds?
1 meteor cast does slightly (like 50) dmg less in 6 seconds of BaseAT +5s of disint
in this time we have already cast another spell, and done an AP filler x2-3 to have enough AP to do meteor again + another spell + 2-3 AP filler to crush ur dmg again?
DKR already showed u the math for it
Ray of Frost does more dmg per point of AP used than Disint
RoF - 18.25
Disint - 16.2
so what? RoF does 13% more damage per point of AP used, it's a more efficient use of AP than Disint
However Disint pierces, if you can hit 2-3 more targets while channeling it, it's a DPS increase. Also RoF has a slow built in, and an AS debuff aswell.
Fighting a boss or super Uniques RoF smashes Disint into oblivion.
Fighting a group of Mobs, Meteor smashes Disint into oblivion.
Fighting a boss or super Unique Meteor Smashes Disint into oblivion if you know how to kite properly.
Disint will fill that middle ground of sub par bad players that cant land Meteor properly, or people who just want to use it cause they think it's cool! and it is a cool skill! For anyone min maxing though, and wants to play with a skill and speed, will use meteor as the numbers stand now. All purpose it's just flat out better. If you want to hunt super unique monsters and bosses RoF looks damn hot as the best option. I mean highest single target sustain, and a debuff to boot!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
WTH are you talking about ? The only thing people had a question that they asked was meteor and damage and I already said RoF does more damage, the ap and stopping at first target are the reason I wouldn't use it. Stop with the personal attacks, the numbers are right for the things I am trying to get.
OMG !!! Learn to READ I never ever said Disintegrate does more damage than RoF per point of mana, I said storm armor with gold rune and Disintegrate is ap neutral.
Meteor is still clumsy spell with a vast range between high and low damage, and using Frost nova crimson rune or Arcane torrent Crimson rune would get more damage with Meteor... You can do electrocute dance but I don't think people will (in Arena but in the game, sure...? I wouldn't be surprised if it happened in a game but on arena there are only 2 - 4 enemies? Would they stand close and let you do this? I thought they were supposed to be running from the Meteor...
I have my doubts about that builds "stamina" against someone using DIAT or DIFrostNova...
Arena in D3 is a joke where you go to mess around. The builds are going to be vastly different than for PvE. I'm not sure why you even bring it up, obviously my math was assuming PvE.
And if you think in Arena you'll be able to stand in place and cast Disintegrate while a Barbarian pounds your face in you're sadly mistaken.
No I think I'll be able to cast Diamond skin with indigo rune then cast disintegrate and watch them all run..... would probably get teleport if I knew I was going to do that though.
Why are people looking down on sig spells? I mean any spell that gets to a 0 resource cost is a win in my book. Yes, I know there is a power difference but, at some point your going to tap out and need that freebee spell there.
Why are people looking down on sig spells? I mean any spell that gets to a 0 resource cost is a win in my book. Yes, I know there is a power difference but, at some point your going to tap out and need that freebee spell there.
I know, I don't get Electric's thinking. MM for 14 or Electrocute for 7 - 21 AP gain. Takes one cast, coupled with natural regen means more of the stronger spells.
His build is all about the fact you don't need sigs cause you never run out of AP only casting Disintegrate. Personally, I'd get ridiculously bored only ever casting one spell. To each their own though.
WTH are you talking about ? The only thing people had a question that they asked was meteor and damage and I already said RoF does more damage, the ap and stopping at first target are the reason I wouldn't use it. Stop with the personal attacks, the numbers are right for the things I am trying to get.
OMG !!! Learn to READ I never ever said Disintegrate does more damage than RoF per point of mana, I said storm armor with gold rune and Disintegrate is ap neutral.
You said RoF was titanic use of AP, it's not, it's a more effective use of AP on a single target, way more effective use of AP. No one cares about AP cost, only that you have the AP to use the skill in conjunction with other spells. People will care about DMG per point of AP, and the effectiveness of the DMG/AP ratio.
RoF > Disint for Single Target Single Target/2 Targets/3 Targets depending on the buff they have (try lining up 3 super fast monsters with disint lol)
Meteor > Disint for AOE and single target when u l2kite
It's not a personal attack, I just don't want you spreading around a bunch of shit on this site that's false, like "meteor is trash" i expect that kind of low grade nubbery on blizz forums or the off topic on this site as a troll post.
If you come out with hostility towards a spell or bunch of spells like you did in your original post you better make sure when your shit gets peer reviewed by people on this site that will check numbers that you don't make a huge colossal mistake and call something trash when its really one of the best, if not THE best offensive spell for wizards.
That is all.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
Yeah, if your not using Storm armor with gold rune and ap neutral spells (spells below the 14.5 ap a second regen) with astral presence, Then yes, you will tap out...
They can be great, but sometimes it just looks like you'll be casting these spells most of the time that is why I personally don't like to focus on it, unless your a Melee Wizard with energy armor and pinpoint barrier then spamming sig spells is your bread and butter and I think they would be a match for a meteor or even disintegrate wizard 1 on 1.
Actually it wouldn't be only casting disintegrate, it would be also casting Arcane torrent with crimson to get 120% extra damage then disintegrate, and or slow time with miasma, it wouldn't even come close to being just 1 spell cast over and over.....
RoF is greater damage but how long you can do it is the question, it isn't nearly as bad as meteor, a person going full throttle with RoF and frost nova to get 110% increased damage I think would kill someone doing Disintegrate and Arcane Torrent if they can be aggressive enough. If you liked to kite something and don't have a tank, then yes, meteor could be fun but it still is a clumsy spell to hit someone with. I think that most people who are wizards will probably be using disintegrate for the aforementioned reasons, some will be RoF and hell I might have it as well, but Disintegrate has a lot of pluses.
Yeah, if your not using Storm armor with gold rune and ap neutral spells (spells below the 14.5 ap a second regen) with astral presence, Then yes, you will tap out...
They can be great, but sometimes it just looks like you'll be casting these spells most of the time that is why I personally don't like to focus on it, unless your a Melee Wizard with energy armor and pinpoint barrier then spamming sig spells is your bread and butter and I think they would be a match for a meteor or even disintegrate wizard 1 on 1.
Actually it wouldn't be only casting disintegrate, it would be also casting Arcane torrent with crimson to get 120% extra damage then disintegrate, and or slow time with miasma, it wouldn't even come close to being just 1 spell cast over and over.....
Did you even look at my post? Sure, you tap out after 8 seconds after dropping 5 Meteors or Hyrdas. I don't care that I'm tapped out because everything is DEAD.
Mac and I aren't attacking you. Your Golden Storm Armor + Crimson Disintegrate build simply isn't as amazing as you keep claiming it is. It's like you came up with the idea and can't think of anything else. I still don't know what build I really want to use (All I know is Storm Armor, Shock Pulse, Unstable Anomaly and Galvanizing Ward are crap imo).
Along with most of you, I have been trying to study the wizard's skills and rune possibilities in conjunction with complementing passive abilities. After a few days of it, and after noticing so many different 'highly suggested' builds, I have a few questions regarding your opinion on the general theory and concept behind skill/rune selections. Please forgive my ignorance if any questions are redundant or just plain stupid.
1. I've been seeing indications of 120 Arcane Power as the starting amount for Wizards. Is that correct? (Leaving out any passives/actives that increase AP pool)
2. What is the default regeneration rate of Arcane Power in Diablo 3?
----
3. For heavy AP casters, is having a cheap signature spell to regenerate AP a necessity? Is Familiar with 270 AP/min sufficient, even coupled with Astral Presence passive?
....Or is having a skill that decreases AP costs by X amount more attractive?
4. If playing exclusively with others (no soloing), could one afford to roll a 'weaker' wizard and concentrate on damage-dealing spells and AP-regenerating spells while passing up on armor/defensive skills? Would it not be advantageous to have a very powerful, although weak, wizard at the back of the pack doing massive damage?
----
5. In summary, what are your guidelines and suggested necessary components of the following build types:
- A 'glass cannon' wizard dealing massive damage
- A 'support class' wizard capable of debuffing enemies and controlling battlefield
- A stronger, up-close and personal wizard that is balanced with both damage output and defense
DKR
2. 12.5 per sec
3. I don't see a reason not to have a Golden Sig spell to regen AP. IMO Golden Storm Armor isn't as good as Indigo Energy Armor. (20% boost to your stat that reduces all damage by a flat %, plus +40 AP)
4. Yes. A wizard focused on groups could afford to channel Crimson Disintegrate whereas a solo wizard would struggle. In general any channel spell is going to shine in multi player and be weaker solo. Keep in mind there's no real reason to have more than 3-4 damage spells.
5. I threw these builds together -really- fast.
Glass cannon multi-party wizard: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#kQUhOm!bXZ!ZYZZZZ
Support party wizard: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#SQljad!VXb!ZYcbZb (not terribly thrilled with this build)
Durable solo wizard: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#dhQRkO!XZe!bZYaZZ
Disintegrate - Crimson - 188-234 dmg/sec
Ray of Frost - Crimson - 369-434 dmg/sec
I've been seeing that selection a lot, am I missing some advantage to Dis versus RoF ?
I don't know where I saw that regen was 12 ap a second but I have seen the same thing I think it was 12.5 when I saw it though too. I mentioned it when I threw Power Hungry over the cliff.
I love Rof and you know that, but disintegrate uses less mana, RoF with Storm armor is above the mana regen cut off.... and disintegrate hits more targets.... Even with RoF and storm armor it takes 22 ap, the most you can regen so far is 18.5... I don't know why he chose it, but Disintegrate with Crimson would always be my first choice, and it comes sooner in the game
Lol good point, I havn't researched the wizard a lot, but I'd take an instant beam that does more damage and slows enemies over an instant beam that does less damage with no CC. Strange
Edit : Ahh nvm, from what i've read dis is a pierce and costs less ap.
120 regen a minute from Astral P = 120 total regen
------------------------------------------------
870 total.
870
_______ = Regen of 14.5 arcane power a second without familiar.
60 seconds
Disintegrate (crimson ) with Storm Armor Gold rune = 13 mana lost a second.
Total of 1.5 arcane power gained every second, while firing disintegrate.
That means you can do it for 4 minutes until shield goes down, not impressive in the real word but in a game that is awesome...
RoF (Crimson) with Storm Armor = 22 Arcane Power lost a second, welcome to the titanic If it is true that wizards only have 100 arcane power in the game, (120 with astral presence). That is 2 casts of meteor and if your rocking Energy Armor, it is gone or soon will be.
Disintegrate has 100% pierce, Ray only hits the target in front. Ray for bosses, Disintegrate for trash. Disintegrate can also slow everything on screen with the arcane passive while Ray only slows the front target it hits.
You can channel Disintegrate for 4 minutes, okay how is that useful? The speed AP regens, especially when coupled with a Golden Sig spell, not to mention the fact stuff should actually be dying means channeling for 4 minutes is meaningless. If you were in an arena with endless waves of enemies coming towards you it would be useful, but you're running around and not always fighting. Storm Armor gold is to reduce the cost of the massive spells like Hydra and Meteor, not the cheap spells.....
I guarantee you in game, side by side, another Wizard without your Storm Armor golden will be able to channel Disintegrate for exactly the same amount of time as you. Because there is always down time between fights where you will regen to full.
Did you see the numbers ? If they are using Energy shield and your both hitting each other assuming neither one has diamond skin etc. they won't be able to cast it because they won't have mana, so my precious Storm armor is what a lot of people will be using and Ice armor doesn't work with non-melee hit with that good intentioned little Armor increase from Gold rune.
With Astral Presence and Indigo Energy Armor I have 160 AP and 14.5 energy regen. If you use Meteor you'll use Golden Electrocute. Assuming a cast speed of 1 spell per second:
0 second - Meteor, 100 AP
1 second - Electrocute, 135 AP
2 second - Meteor, 75 AP
3 second - Electrocute, 110 AP
4 second - Meteor, 50 AP
5 second - Electrocute, 85 AP
6 second - Meteor, 25 AP
7 second - Electrocute, 60 AP
8 second - Meteor 0 AP
So in 8 seconds you can drop 5 meteors/hyrdas. If everything isn't dead after that much damage something is seriously wrong. Then by the time the next fight starts your regen would have brought you back. This is for solo too, in team fights enemies are going to be dying even faster.
While Golden Storm Armor may seem very powerful, when compared to Indigo Energy Armor, it really isn't.
I never said the wizards were fighting. You're PvEing side by side.
I have my doubts about that builds "stamina" against someone using DIAT or DIFrostNova...
1 meteor cast does slightly (like 50) dmg less in 6 seconds of BaseAT +5s of disint
in this time we have already cast another spell, and done an AP filler x2-3 to have enough AP to do meteor again + another spell + 2-3 AP filler to crush ur dmg again?
DKR already showed u the math for it
Ray of Frost does more dmg per point of AP used than Disint
RoF - 18.25
Disint - 16.2
so what? RoF does 13% more damage per point of AP used, it's a more efficient use of AP than Disint
However Disint pierces, if you can hit 2-3 more targets while channeling it, it's a DPS increase. Also RoF has a slow built in, and an AS debuff aswell.
Fighting a boss or super Uniques RoF smashes Disint into oblivion.
Fighting a group of Mobs, Meteor smashes Disint into oblivion.
Fighting a boss or super Unique Meteor Smashes Disint into oblivion if you know how to kite properly.
Disint will fill that middle ground of sub par bad players that cant land Meteor properly, or people who just want to use it cause they think it's cool! and it is a cool skill! For anyone min maxing though, and wants to play with a skill and speed, will use meteor as the numbers stand now. All purpose it's just flat out better. If you want to hunt super unique monsters and bosses RoF looks damn hot as the best option. I mean highest single target sustain, and a debuff to boot!
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
OMG !!! Learn to READ I never ever said Disintegrate does more damage than RoF per point of mana, I said storm armor with gold rune and Disintegrate is ap neutral.
Arena in D3 is a joke where you go to mess around. The builds are going to be vastly different than for PvE. I'm not sure why you even bring it up, obviously my math was assuming PvE.
And if you think in Arena you'll be able to stand in place and cast Disintegrate while a Barbarian pounds your face in you're sadly mistaken.
I know, I don't get Electric's thinking. MM for 14 or Electrocute for 7 - 21 AP gain. Takes one cast, coupled with natural regen means more of the stronger spells.
His build is all about the fact you don't need sigs cause you never run out of AP only casting Disintegrate. Personally, I'd get ridiculously bored only ever casting one spell. To each their own though.
You said RoF was titanic use of AP, it's not, it's a more effective use of AP on a single target, way more effective use of AP. No one cares about AP cost, only that you have the AP to use the skill in conjunction with other spells. People will care about DMG per point of AP, and the effectiveness of the DMG/AP ratio.
RoF > Disint for Single Target Single Target/2 Targets/3 Targets depending on the buff they have (try lining up 3 super fast monsters with disint lol)
Meteor > Disint for AOE and single target when u l2kite
It's not a personal attack, I just don't want you spreading around a bunch of shit on this site that's false, like "meteor is trash" i expect that kind of low grade nubbery on blizz forums or the off topic on this site as a troll post.
If you come out with hostility towards a spell or bunch of spells like you did in your original post you better make sure when your shit gets peer reviewed by people on this site that will check numbers that you don't make a huge colossal mistake and call something trash when its really one of the best, if not THE best offensive spell for wizards.
That is all.
for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
shall be my brother..."
They can be great, but sometimes it just looks like you'll be casting these spells most of the time that is why I personally don't like to focus on it, unless your a Melee Wizard with energy armor and pinpoint barrier then spamming sig spells is your bread and butter and I think they would be a match for a meteor or even disintegrate wizard 1 on 1.
Actually it wouldn't be only casting disintegrate, it would be also casting Arcane torrent with crimson to get 120% extra damage then disintegrate, and or slow time with miasma, it wouldn't even come close to being just 1 spell cast over and over.....
RoF is greater damage but how long you can do it is the question, it isn't nearly as bad as meteor, a person going full throttle with RoF and frost nova to get 110% increased damage I think would kill someone doing Disintegrate and Arcane Torrent if they can be aggressive enough. If you liked to kite something and don't have a tank, then yes, meteor could be fun but it still is a clumsy spell to hit someone with. I think that most people who are wizards will probably be using disintegrate for the aforementioned reasons, some will be RoF and hell I might have it as well, but Disintegrate has a lot of pluses.
Did you even look at my post? Sure, you tap out after 8 seconds after dropping 5 Meteors or Hyrdas. I don't care that I'm tapped out because everything is DEAD.
Mac and I aren't attacking you. Your Golden Storm Armor + Crimson Disintegrate build simply isn't as amazing as you keep claiming it is. It's like you came up with the idea and can't think of anything else. I still don't know what build I really want to use (All I know is Storm Armor, Shock Pulse, Unstable Anomaly and Galvanizing Ward are crap imo).
On a side note, since you keep bringing up Arena, here's my Barb build who would crush your Disintegrate Wiz: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#dbePRY!bWa!aZbZcZ