Lifesteal

  • #41
    Quote from EarlZ088

    I am not picking any sides, just stating my experience.. Based on extended testing I still feel more comfortable with LoH in elite battles that I cannot melt down with in 6 seconds. The 600 life drained every 100k damage (for 3%LS only) is not best suited for my play style as compared to draining more than 1,500 per hit.. Maybe when I have a budget for like 150M per 3% weapon with 40-50% crit and an open socket, LS will be superior for my build.

    Im actually having a hard time upgrading my weapons now due to the insane prices!


    Well to me it sounds like you are using a 1 hander with low overall damage. So maybe it is better for you to have LOH on that slot.

    I realize I'm nitpicking but since you're comparing 3% lifesteal to your loh. You should realize you can at max get 3597 HPS averaged loh at 2 aps including FoTs hidden IAS, which makes it 3aps. Which an averaged LOH of 1198 per hit, of course this is assuming you have 2aps and you have a perfect 959 loh weapon. Comparing a socket or including loh from other pieces of gear is not a fair comparison as you shouldn't choose between stacking loh vs stacking life steal. You should use whichever property is better in the game for that specific slot for your current setup.

    I agree life steal needs a lot of damage to compete with high end LOH but you should realize that the less base loh a weapon has the less damage is needed to compete. Some examples *based on my previous conditions*
    28k dmg, 3% LS > 320 loh
    35k dmg, 3% LS > 400 loh
    42k dmg, 3% LS > 480 loh
    56k dmg, 3% LS > 640 loh
    70k dmg, 3% LS > 800 loh

    And it would be more important what your other gear is. 150m in gear > 150m on a weapon.
  • #42
    Quote from riptide

    Quote from EarlZ088

    I am not picking any sides, just stating my experience.. Based on extended testing I still feel more comfortable with LoH in elite battles that I cannot melt down with in 6 seconds. The 600 life drained every 100k damage (for 3%LS only) is not best suited for my play style as compared to draining more than 1,500 per hit.. Maybe when I have a budget for like 150M per 3% weapon with 40-50% crit and an open socket, LS will be superior for my build.

    Im actually having a hard time upgrading my weapons now due to the insane prices!


    Well to me it sounds like you are using a 1 hander with low overall damage. So maybe it is better for you to have LOH on that slot.

    I realize I'm nitpicking but since you're comparing 3% lifesteal to your loh. You should realize you can at max get 1798 HPS averaged loh at 2 aps including FoTs hidden IAS, which makes it 3aps. Which an averaged LOH of 599 per hit, of course this is assuming you have 2aps and you have a perfect 959 loh weapon. Comparing a socket or including loh from other pieces of gear is not a fair comparison as you shouldn't choose between stacking loh vs stacking life steal. You should use whichever property is better in the game for that specific slot for your current setup.

    I agree life steal needs a lot of damage to compete with high end LOH but you should realize that the less base loh a weapon has the less damage is needed to compete. Some examples *based on my previous conditions*
    28k dmg, 3% LS > 320 loh
    35k dmg, 3% LS > 400 loh
    42k dmg, 3% LS > 480 loh
    56k dmg, 3% LS > 640 loh
    70k dmg, 3% LS > 800 loh

    And it would be more important what your other gear is. 150m in gear > 150m on a weapon.


    I would suppose a 1k dps axe can be considered low damage these days, Id also like to add that even on a single target I get more than 825 LoH.. 825 is my only LoH value from a single weapon.
  • #43
    Quote from EarlZ088

    I would suppose a 1k dps axe can be considered low damage these days, Id also like to add that even on a single target I get more than 825 LoH.. 825 is my only LoH value from a single weapon.


    I meant low char sheet damage... not weapon damage. Weapon damage is largely irrelevant unless you're actively managing your sweeping winds. An 800 dps weapon with 200 dex is the same damage as a 1000 dps weapon. So until you're talking the best of the best weapon damage isn't as important as the stats on the item. To further illustrate that for my gear a 535 dps weapon with 350 dex and 100% crit dmg + a socket is better than a 1000 dps weapon with a socket by about 685 char sheet dmg.

    Also averaged means just that. For example you strike once with FoT:TC and you get a 75% proc from the initial hit and a 75% hit from the secondary effect. For a total of 1237 but that's only your first 2 hits, your 3rd hit is only 619. So Averaged it's 1055 per hit with your weapon, again if you have a LOH gem then you would have to remove that value and compare once again.

    Now if you were using say FoT: Quickening it's 100% loh, 100% loh, 75%loh that's 825+825+619= 759 averaged loh per hit.


    I also want to point out that I was tired earlier and said the max avg you could get per swing was 599, it's actually 1198. Again this is with a 1 hander only and not including gems or LOH from other slots. The rest is accurate though.
  • #44
    Character sheet DPS is 55k, I prefer more weapon damage of 300dex and 500 dps since the damage difference on SW is day and night.
  • #45
    Quote from EarlZ088

    Character sheet DPS is 55k, I prefer more weapon damage of 300dex and 500 dps since the damage difference on SW is day and night.


    Well now we're getting into optimizing sweeping winds and if you're doing that you would want the dagger I posted with 535 dps with the 350dex and 100% base crit with a socket in your offhand and your other weapon in your main hand. That would serve you A LOT better than a 1000 dps off hand with a socket.

    Or even swapping in a 2 hander for activating sweeping winds.
  • #46
    After a few days of play testing and comparing, I still find my 825LoH spear far better than my 2.9LS axe ( with the axe I get 1k more dps ) I've also managed to increase my dps by upgrading a few things which gives me 59.8k as of now. I understand that there are some of you who are advocating that LS is better and I respect that opinion.
  • #47
    Quote from EarlZ088

    After a few days of play testing and comparing, I still find my 825LoH spear far better than my 2.9LS axe ( with the axe I get 1k more dps ) I've also managed to increase my dps by upgrading a few things which gives me 59.8k as of now. I understand that there are some of you who are advocating that LS is better and I respect that opinion.

    Well, for me the best solution is the price/effectivness ratio in items. Because my funds are limited.

    And I think the most efficient way to gear is get 1h with around 3% life steal+dex+socket and a crit shield (much cheaper combination), a decent amount of LOH on amulet and rings (along with DPS stats) and life per second on armor items (and obviously dex/vita/resists etc).

    I think that weapons with high amounts of LOH are just overpriced and when boosting life per sec, you can even have a weapon without life regenerating stat, which gets even more cheap (an opens up space for potential innate crit damage).
  • #48
    Life on hit is affected by skill modifiers, so some skills grant you a higher percentage of your total LoH number than others.

    As far as I know, Life Steal is unnaffected by skill modifiers and thus you get the full value with every skill based on the damage you deal.

    In that respect, doing math based off your total amount of LoH without knowing the skill modifiers of every skill on your loadout is pointless, as you are missing a variable in your equation.

    I wish Blizzard would just come out and tell us what the numbers are so we could properly test and debate this.
  • #49
    Quote from Echaos

    Life on hit is affected by skill modifiers, so some skills grant you a higher percentage of your total LoH number than others.

    As far as I know, Life Steal is unnaffected by skill modifiers and thus you get the full value with every skill based on the damage you deal.

    In that respect, doing math based off your total amount of LoH without knowing the skill modifiers of every skill on your loadout is pointless, as you are missing a variable in your equation.

    I wish Blizzard would just come out and tell us what the numbers are so we could properly test and debate this.


    True, this is what the paper comparison is missing. But even disregarding the hidden multipliers on the LoH, I cannot imagine how LS will actually be superior in terms of practical usage I mean you only drain 600HP per 100K damage delt, with my 825LoH I gain that per hit. But of course LS is cheaper.. A combination of both would be great.
  • #50
    Quote from Echaos

    Life on hit is affected by skill modifiers, so some skills grant you a higher percentage of your total LoH number than others.

    As far as I know, Life Steal is unnaffected by skill modifiers and thus you get the full value with every skill based on the damage you deal.

    In that respect, doing math based off your total amount of LoH without knowing the skill modifiers of every skill on your loadout is pointless, as you are missing a variable in your equation.

    I wish Blizzard would just come out and tell us what the numbers are so we could properly test and debate this.

    Quote from EarlZ088

    Quote from Echaos

    Life on hit is affected by skill modifiers, so some skills grant you a higher percentage of your total LoH number than others.

    As far as I know, Life Steal is unnaffected by skill modifiers and thus you get the full value with every skill based on the damage you deal.

    In that respect, doing math based off your total amount of LoH without knowing the skill modifiers of every skill on your loadout is pointless, as you are missing a variable in your equation.

    I wish Blizzard would just come out and tell us what the numbers are so we could properly test and debate this.


    True, this is what the paper comparison is missing. But even disregarding the hidden multipliers on the LoH, I cannot imagine how LS will actually be superior in terms of practical usage I mean you only drain 600HP per 100K damage delt, with my 825LoH I gain that per hit. But of course LS is cheaper.. A combination of both would be great.



    If both of you are referring to the numbers I got I did account for the life on hit coefficients and picked the most favorable loh generator too. Which is why if you use anything but FoT:TC Life steal will get better faster. It averages 125% loh per hit while the next best is Wothf:FoF at 125.33% however that is slower than FoT:TC.

    Link to LOH values based on runes.
    https://docs.google....d=0&output=html

    I know my first post that contained this info was long. But if you're going to compare anything you probably should have looked at the details and method rather than just the outcome. Else you're just regurgitating what you heard elsewhere.

    *EDIT * Slightly off topic

    Just a theory I have for 1.04 but if Wave of Light coefficients stay as they are but the spell gets either a damage increase or cost reduction, either of which I expect to happen,on top of 2handers being useful. LOH will actually be bad compared to life steal. Which is something you could never say with FoT:TC
  • #51
    Quote from riptide

    Quote from Echaos

    Life on hit is affected by skill modifiers, so some skills grant you a higher percentage of your total LoH number than others.

    As far as I know, Life Steal is unnaffected by skill modifiers and thus you get the full value with every skill based on the damage you deal.

    In that respect, doing math based off your total amount of LoH without knowing the skill modifiers of every skill on your loadout is pointless, as you are missing a variable in your equation.

    I wish Blizzard would just come out and tell us what the numbers are so we could properly test and debate this.

    Quote from EarlZ088

    Quote from Echaos

    Life on hit is affected by skill modifiers, so some skills grant you a higher percentage of your total LoH number than others.

    As far as I know, Life Steal is unnaffected by skill modifiers and thus you get the full value with every skill based on the damage you deal.

    In that respect, doing math based off your total amount of LoH without knowing the skill modifiers of every skill on your loadout is pointless, as you are missing a variable in your equation.

    I wish Blizzard would just come out and tell us what the numbers are so we could properly test and debate this.


    True, this is what the paper comparison is missing. But even disregarding the hidden multipliers on the LoH, I cannot imagine how LS will actually be superior in terms of practical usage I mean you only drain 600HP per 100K damage delt, with my 825LoH I gain that per hit. But of course LS is cheaper.. A combination of both would be great.



    If both of you are referring to the numbers I got I did account for the life on hit coefficients and picked the most favorable loh generator too. Which is why if you use anything but FoT:TC Life steal will get better faster. It averages 125% loh per hit while the next best is Wothf:FoF at 125.33% however that is slower than FoT:TC.

    Link to LOH values based on runes.
    https://docs.google....d=0&output=html

    I know my first post that contained this info was long. But if you're going to compare anything you probably should have looked at the details and method rather than just the outcome. Else you're just regurgitating what you heard elsewhere.

    *EDIT * Slightly off topic

    Just a theory I have for 1.04 but if Wave of Light coefficients stay as they are but the spell gets either a damage increase or cost reduction, either of which I expect to happen,on top of 2handers being useful. LOH will actually be bad compared to life steal. Which is something you could never say with FoT:TC


    I wasn't referring to any post specifically, but most people who math out LoH vs LS don't take those coefficients into account. Plus, while FoT:TC may be a favorable skill for use with LoH, I would believe that a different load out of skills might slightly favor LS. My point was that it's impossible to generalize one as better than the other when the LoH coefficients innately make it a situational measurement.

    Also I would assume based on Blizzard's earlier statement that they would be buffing LS if it was obviously less powerful and used overall(which it is in many situations) that they will be making it stronger in one way or another eventually.
  • #52
    Quote from Echaos

    I wasn't referring to any post specifically, but most people who math out LoH vs LS don't take those coefficients into account. Plus, while FoT:TC may be a favorable skill for use with LoH, I would believe that a different load out of skills might slightly favor LS. My point was that it's impossible to generalize one as better than the other when the LoH coefficients innately make it a situational measurement.

    Also I would assume based on Blizzard's earlier statement that they would be buffing LS if it was obviously less powerful and used overall(which it is in many situations) that they will be making it stronger in one way or another eventually.


    Oh, well I think I've shown the break point that life steal surpasses LOH for that 1 single property based on optimal conditions for LOH averaged out. If people don't understand how OP the loh coefficient is for fot:tc and use something like quickening thinking it will be the same. Well I don't know what to say.

    I also advocate life steal as being viable and it will likely be even more so after 1.04. But I can't stress enough that either way that doesn't mean one is bad. People can use both, they don't have to pick between one or the other. Though I expect to see some more life steal items through legendaries. Maybe a stealskull or vamp gaze:)

    Basically, you didn't read anything and just posted. Carry on.
  • #53
    Quote from riptide

    Basically, you didn't read anything and just posted. Carry on.


    Incorrect. Don't confuse "You didn't read anything" with "You didn't read MY post so you suck!". The fact is that yes, I did not catch your particular post or the post you previously referenced, because it was not the OP and I did not read every single post in the thread.

    Also, if you're agreeing with me, there's no need to be such a giant asshole about it.
  • #54
    I like life steal. Going fine in A3 with 50k dps, and 3% LS.

    Previously I was using transcendence together with FoT (quickening), now I'm back to FoT+TC and dodge passive and I feel it's going more smoothly in A3. LS is a bit weak when it comes down to fighting single Bosses, but it's good enough :)

    Again concerning LoH, at some point I felt that as my DPS went up, the healing I got went down, since I spent less time actually hitting mobs. With LS that's less of an issue, since the total damage you deal stays the same (the mobs health).
    My monk Vin
  • #55
    Im excited to see what they will do with LS on 1.04 so Im still gonna get another weapon with LS.
  • #56
    Quote from EarlZ088

    Im excited to see what they will do with LS on 1.04 so Im still gonna get another weapon with LS.


    Well I'm happy with it now but I do expect it to become better. Because of skill changes which changes the LOH coefficient and scaling would be affected that way or by actually just flat out buffing life steal.

    If they do buff life steal LOH will probably take a back seat for most people. Which is fine imo, loh should be better at lower gear levels. But just think if they even make it 30% in inferno instead of 20%,how fast people will hit the break point where life steal is better. That would be around 55-60k.
  • #57
    Well atm i am running 2 weapons with LS, and tbh id LOVE to change 1 of en to LoH but if i have to do that it will pretty much mean that i will either go ALOT down in damage or i have to play 24/7 to get the gold for it.

    Prices on EU realm atleast have risen to such a high point that everyone thinks all that glitters is gold.

    The comparing would be:
    800+ dps weapon with 900 loh and a socket = atleast 20 mill start bid.
    800+ dps weapon with 3% LS and a socket = 3 mill start bid.

    I do rather hope some of the new stuff in the next patch will fix some of these issues because it is almost impossible to get weapons at a decent dps to a price thats affordable on EU atleast.

    Im no hardcore player and have had a max of 13 mill gold, simply because i aint had the gold to focus on both resist and MF (again we are here talking + 20 mill for 1 part).

    I choose to use LS because it was simply within my budget, it means i still button mash on my def. skills but it still gives me enough to live through most packs and the rest i kite.

    To me LS is a viable cheap alternative to Loh, its not as good, no, but it will not screw your budget either.
  • #58
    Quote from MostlyH4rm

    To me LS is a viable cheap alternative to Loh, its not as good, no, but it will not screw your budget either.


    I agree on this.

    EDIT:

    A friend lent me his trifecta gloves which increases my dps to 6.6k more.. the single 2.90LS is still not better in all conditions compared to LoH.
  • #59
    Life Steal turns into the most OP stat there is. Myself im a monk sitting with 147k tooltip dps, u can add 15% from wrath and another 24% from overawe, this gives me way over 200k dps + who knows how much dps from sweeping winds and its cyclones. Life steal is so powerfull for me that ive dropped most of my all res, i have like 180 all res and i just smash throu act 3 like it was act 1 normal. I heal so much that i dont have to bother about anything cept not stading in molten. 5k healing ticks happens more often than 2k healing ticks.

    I fear that life steal gets a nerf at some point, because at the max gear level its redicilous OP.

    Oh and people claiming monks should use LOH, Try get over 50k medicore dps before pretending to be an oracle of information. All you do is trolling, spreading more false rumors among the many sadly "not so knowing" players.

    Edit: just checked my stats 29.8k hp, 7199 armor, 190 all res and like 5.60% life steal. Life steal provides all the defence i need. 4 mobs hits me at the same time, yeah it can take over 50% of my health, but nothing to worry about, before they land another attack im way above full health. Not that it matters they are dead anyways before attacking again.
    Currently played toon:
    http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Rage-2973/hero/28310

    Profit:
    Flipping/Sniping: 6577€
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