A lot of what keitaruz said is true. I've been running spray of teeth for weeks and it is absolutely secret op. It basically gives the same bonus as the crossbow archery passive, but 1) the 50% damage is done in an aoe that hits the initial target as well as all nearby targets, and 2) the 50% damage bonus counts as an extra hit, not just added bonus tacked on, which means the bonus itself CAN ALSO CRIT. This means that a crit-centric build with high crit% and crit damage will make your hungering arrows beastly. Evasive fire doesn't hold a candle to it, especially now that it no longer bypasses obstacles/walls. Grab a quiver with +% hungering arrow damage and your hungering arrow will basically out dps just about any hatred spender outside cluster bombs.
When comparing primary moves I think it's always good not to do it in a vacuum. The secondary hatred spender, DPS of the character, and playstyle are all factors to be considered.
Generally, I want either an AOE primary and a single target secondary (Hungering[SoT]/Impale[Grievous Wounds], or a single target primary and an AOE secondary (Hungering[Devouring]/Elemental Arrow[Frost]), because there will always be situations where you need either AOE or single target damage, to be the most efficient. I never understood SoT/Cluster because to me they seem redundant: localized AOE DPS.
The DPS of the character is also a critical factor. At end-game gear levels, the majority of white mobs will die in one hit on a crit. Under this condition, the mathematically higher damage output of HA is not as significant as the hitbox of CF, if everything is dying in one hit anyways. If you aren't at these DPS levels, then HA may be more efficient.
Finally, playstyle. I play a speed-farm, glass cannon DH, and I try to kill as quickly as possible and cover as much ground as quickly as possible, bypassing white mobs if there are no more elites and I can safely zone out. The mechanics of Spray of Teeth make it inferior for my playstyle. It has good AOE, but in a small radius. If I want to minimize my shots fired and maximize my running time, I want an attack with a wide radius and CF has an arc of nearly 60 degrees. The instantaneous hitscan nature of CF also makes for a more fluid run, in my opinion. As a side note, CF also generates hatred without hitting a target.
Run through the same level with different builds. Do you notice a more fluid run? Do you die less? Is it noticeably faster/easier? Do you find yourself missing a particular mechanic? In the end what the "best skill" is, depends on you.
Could you also post the approximate total price of your gear? I have like 3.5 million gold and I'm wondering how much DPS I can get if I gear up a DH from scratch with such budget.
As a side note, CF also generates hatred without hitting a target.
So? All of the abilities under the Primary branch generate hatred without hitting a target. Also, what you're missing about Spray of Teeth is that a critical hit explodes, hitting the same target a second time, and if the arrow also penetrates it is likely to come back around and strike a 3rd time. The skill is amazing with high crit chance.
Can't contribute much to playstyle discussion as it's late, however I'll post my gear and build for solo play.
With Scoundrel using 3% crit passive:
107.8k dps (Non SS)
50% crit chance
262% crit damage.
2169 dexterity
1.57 APS.
27.3k hp
191 All Resistance (This amount of hp and res does actually let me take hits without dying, while not sacrificing any dps)
Hungering Arrow (Spray of Teeth) - Such an absurdly powerful skill when you have high crit chance, I would NEVER use Evasive Fire over it, despite my Natalya's chest giving +damage to it.
Cluster Arrow (Cluster Bombs) - Way more than double the damage of Loaded for Bear, but slightly harder to aim. Perfectly positioned shots can do more than 2 million damage when they crit, and it's not hard to position them when using Caltrops to slow. Takes some time to learn, but with practice I don't see how Loaded for Bear is even remotely comparable.
Caltrops (Jagged Spikes) - Great for kiting elites, and setting up Cluster Bombs as mentioned above. The DPS from them is nice, as is the Life on Hit co-efficient when I'm using a 1h LoH crossbow to regen on reflectors.
Smoke Screen (Lingering Fog) - Obvious.
Vault (Acrobatics) - Obvious.
Preparation (Backup Plan) - Most prep runes are pretty good.
Archery
Steady Aim
Grenadier - Allows a 3 cluster burst rather than a 2 cluster burst, and the death effect is amazing. It means you never have to deal with the pain of a phasebeast pack teleporting and 1 shotting you when they're on 5% hp, only to regen when you return. Highest crit I've had with it is 720k.
Gear pic:
If you have any queries about my build, post here and I'll try to answer them tomorrow.
May aswell advertise while I'm here: I'm quitting D3 soon due to moving to Japan for a year, so I'm selling my gear as a pack, and I'd much prefer it to be done on RMAH/Paypal rather than IGG! Feel free to drop me an offer.
-Keitaru
I've tried Cluster Bombs, and much like Grenades, maybe its the animation, but it just feels awkward and slow to use. I think it drops about 6 bombs in a straight line? But it looks like those bombs will always start about 15-20 yds away from my hero which is just too damn close. Granted you are using that in conjunction with caltrope which makes aiming it faster. I guess you have to kite elite/rare packs anyway so it may work for you. I just like the instant gratification of loaded w/ bears since my APS is now 1.49. It's a very fast projectile!!
And I agree the Evasive Fire/Cover Fire animation needs work. It is lackluster in that department by far. I think because its seeking there was laziness getting 3 projectiles to shoot out and hit the 3 different targets at the exact same time. It may very well work to our advantage tho since they don't physically drawn on screen.
A lot of what keitaruz said is true. I've been running spray of teeth for weeks and it is absolutely secret op. It basically gives the same bonus as the crossbow archery passive, but 1) the 50% damage is done in an aoe that hits the initial target as well as all nearby targets, and 2) the 50% damage bonus counts as an extra hit, not just added bonus tacked on, which means the bonus itself CAN ALSO CRIT. This means that a crit-centric build with high crit% and crit damage will make your hungering arrows beastly. Evasive fire doesn't hold a candle to it, especially now that it no longer bypasses obstacles/walls. Grab a quiver with +% hungering arrow damage and your hungering arrow will basically out dps just about any hatred spender outside cluster bombs.
It's not OP in the least. Amount of targets times your crit chance needs to exceed 70% for it to beat other HA (single target) runes. So basically single target it's only better than other HA runes during SS - and I doubt you'd want to use HA when having stacked SS. For most players you need the proc to hit on average >2 targets for the rune to be even with single target HA runes.
So basically we have an AoE rune that outperforms other runes for the same skill at >2 targets when having stacked % crit and like >6 targets when not. I'm not sure whether you noticed it but that's true for every AoE skill in the game when compared to a similar single target skill - and those usually do not require you to stack crit to function at all.
The only reason it's being considered as more than average is that all AoE DH hatred generators are simply horrible - Bola Shot/Grenades are clunky and ineffective to use (unless for very very special builds) and Entangling Shot does less damage than auto shots do. That's why many people use Spray of Teeth/Splitting Arrow/Covering Fire - it provides a semi-AoE generator.
Go clear act 3 and keep a mental count of how many times you are fighting 1 mob and ONLY 1 mob. People get overly focused on the dichotomy of "single target" and "multiple target" encounters but they don't realize that something like 98% of the encounters in this game are multi target. If you are fighting 1 mob and ONLY 1 mob, devouring arrow will outperform spray, but the moment there are more than 1 mob on the screen spray will absolutely destroy all the other single target hungering runes. Additionally, the lead on spray over devouring arrow continues to grow the more mobs there are on the screen.
Aside from boss fights, single target encounters are extremely rare. You will encounter dozens of trash mobs at a time, champions comes in packs of threes, and elites have minions. As someone has already said, spray does tremendous aoe damage AND has the benefit of doing good single target damage. It's unquestionably the most versatile and useful hatred generator.
Maybe my math is wrong here, but with a 30% crit chance, Spray of Teeth has 30% chance to explode, hitting 1 target twice, as well as any nearby enemies. It also has a 30% chance to pierce, thus striking twice. If we add that up, we can conclude that it has a 60% chance to strike at least twice per shot. If you get your crit chance even higher than that, the % climbs even higher. How is that not better than the rest of the HA runes? Is my math borked?
A lot of what keitaruz said is true. I've been running spray of teeth for weeks and it is absolutely secret op. It basically gives the same bonus as the crossbow archery passive, but 1) the 50% damage is done in an aoe that hits the initial target as well as all nearby targets, and 2) the 50% damage bonus counts as an extra hit, not just added bonus tacked on, which means the bonus itself CAN ALSO CRIT. This means that a crit-centric build with high crit% and crit damage will make your hungering arrows beastly. Evasive fire doesn't hold a candle to it, especially now that it no longer bypasses obstacles/walls. Grab a quiver with +% hungering arrow damage and your hungering arrow will basically out dps just about any hatred spender outside cluster bombs.
It's not OP in the least. Amount of targets times your crit chance needs to exceed 70% for it to beat other HA (single target) runes. So basically single target it's only better than other HA runes during SS - and I doubt you'd want to use HA when having stacked SS. For most players you need the proc to hit on average >2 targets for the rune to be even with single target HA runes.
So basically we have an AoE rune that outperforms other runes for the same skill at >2 targets when having stacked % crit and like >6 targets when not. I'm not sure whether you noticed it but that's true for every AoE skill in the game when compared to a similar single target skill - and those usually do not require you to stack crit to function at all.
The only reason it's being considered as more than average is that all AoE DH hatred generators are simply horrible - Bola Shot/Grenades are clunky and ineffective to use (unless for very very special builds) and Entangling Shot does less damage than auto shots do. That's why many people use Spray of Teeth/Splitting Arrow/Covering Fire - it provides a semi-AoE generator.
Go clear act 3 and keep a mental count of how many times you are fighting 1 mob and ONLY 1 mob. People get overly focused on the dichotomy of "single target" and "multiple target" encounters but they don't realize that something like 98% of the encounters in this game are multi target. If you are fighting 1 mob and ONLY 1 mob, devouring arrow will outperform spray, but the moment there are more than 1 mob on the screen spray will absolutely destroy all the other single target hungering runes. Additionally, the lead on spray over devouring arrow continues to grow the more mobs there are on the screen.
Aside from boss fights, single target encounters are extremely rare. You will encounter dozens of trash mobs at a time, champions comes in packs of threes, and elites have minions. As someone has already said, spray does tremendous aoe damage AND has the benefit of doing good single target damage. It's unquestionably the most versatile and useful hatred generator.
You may try actually reading posts before replying to them. You need to hit on average >2 (that means more than two) enemies with the explosions for the rune to benefit you over single target HA runes. This doesn't mean you need to be fighting >2 enemies but they also need to stand close to each other so the explosion actually hits them. Hitting two enemies with it you're only even with single target HA runes (assuming 35% crit).
Sure it's a viable rune at high crit levels but it's far from OP as you were calling it. Personally I'm not even using it most of the time since I only farm A3 on my DH (MF Wizard is more efficient in A1) and I don't enjoy those elite hunting runs so I basically do a 5 NV -> Cydaea -> Azmodan run like pre-patch. Any trash dies in a single Cluster Bomb anyway so I'm mostly using HA to off-screen hard packs (and I prefer focus damage for those - killing one of them allows me to tank the harder packs usually), kill stray runners and as a filler for the two boss fights.
Edit:
I even covered the point why it feels useful to begin with in my previous post. It's simply because our AoE generators suck so if you want an AoE generator, it's still your best bet. I'm not sure how Blizzard spent all those years, but they definitely didn't test Entangling Shot or Bola Shot. At least grenades are somewhat useful in a melee build.
Yea, and when I'm fighting more than 2 enemies, they're usually clumped up to where i can hit more than 1 with the explosion. I thought that leap was obvious and i didn't have to spell it out for you. I'm not really sure i trust your math, and if anyone else has the math for spray of teeth, I'm all ears. And i'm not sure why you've arbitrarily picked 35% crit when I and most DHs like me are closer to 50% if not more.
The reason i like spray over any other hungering arrow rune isn't because i "want an aoe generator" You need to stop thinking in such binary terms. I like spray because it is more useful to me in more situations. It does great single target dps (in the few situations where i need it) and it also does great aoe damage while costing no hatred. That's versatility, and that's what makes it better than any other hungering arrow rune.
Maybe my math is wrong here, but with a 30% crit chance, Spray of Teeth has 30% chance to explode, hitting 1 target twice, as well as any nearby enemies. It also has a 30% chance to pierce, thus striking twice. If we add that up, we can conclude that it has a 60% chance to strike at least twice per shot. If you get your crit chance even higher than that, the % climbs even higher. How is that not better than the rest of the HA runes? Is my math borked?
In this example, the explosion itself also has 30% chance to crit, and also benefits from extra crit damage. That's what makes calculating the dps of the rune so difficult.
In this example, the explosion itself also has 30% chance to crit, and also benefits from extra crit damage. That's what makes calculating the dps of the rune so difficult.
I agree. Although this is merely anecdotal and my own speculation, the explosion seems to almost always crit, and it nearly does the same amount of damage as the original shot, maybe 10-15k less than a 110k crit. Supposedly the explosion should hit for 50%, but it seems much stronger than that.
Maybe my math is wrong here, but with a 30% crit chance, Spray of Teeth has 30% chance to explode, hitting 1 target twice, as well as any nearby enemies. It also has a 30% chance to pierce, thus striking twice. If we add that up, we can conclude that it has a 60% chance to strike at least twice per shot. If you get your crit chance even higher than that, the % climbs even higher. How is that not better than the rest of the HA runes? Is my math borked?
Your math is borked because you are accumulating two independent events. An illustrative example is, imagine that SoT also had a 50% chance to turn the target into a narwhal. Obviously, you could fail the pierce roll (70% chance), fail the crit roll (70% chance), and then fail the narwhal roll (50% chance), and end up with a regular arrow. Under your math, you would have a 30% + 30% + 50% = 110% of at least one of the effects, which is incorrect.
Considering only the two possibilities you brought up and ignoring subsequent pierces, the initial hit would have a 30% chance of piercing, for 200% damage,and a 30% of critting, for [let's pretend] 300% damage, for an expected value of (.3)(200) + (.3)(300) = 150% of HA's base multiplier (115%).
As a side note, CF also generates hatred without hitting a target.
So? All of the abilities under the Primary branch generate hatred without hitting a target. Also, what you're missing about Spray of Teeth is that a critical hit explodes, hitting the same target a second time, and if the arrow also penetrates it is likely to come back around and strike a 3rd time. The skill is amazing with high crit chance.
My mistake, I thought the primaries worked differently.
However, regarding spray of teeth, what YOU are missing is that it is irrelevant how many times a shot pierces a target if the target is already dead after the first shot. Like I mentioned in my earlier post, the DPS of the character is determinative of whether you want a higher DPS or a screen-clearing move.
As a side note, CF also generates hatred without hitting a target.
So? All of the abilities under the Primary branch generate hatred without hitting a target. Also, what you're missing about Spray of Teeth is that a critical hit explodes, hitting the same target a second time, and if the arrow also penetrates it is likely to come back around and strike a 3rd time. The skill is amazing with high crit chance.
My mistake, I thought the primaries worked differently.
However, regarding spray of teeth, what YOU are missing is that it is irrelevant how many times a shot pierces a target if the target is already dead after the first shot. Like I mentioned in my earlier post, the DPS of the character is determinative of whether you want a higher DPS or a screen-clearing move.
This is so nonsensical it's hard to respond to.
1) If everything dies in 1 crit in inferno, you must be playing act 1. in act 3 and beyond, while some mobs do die in 1 crit, there are many that will not, even with your gear.
2) Even if they die in 1 crit, the pierce will allow the arrow to continue further and hit subsequent mobs behind. Damage on covering fire is limited to 3 mobs maximum.
3) How the hell did you get to as far as you are without realizing that all generators generate hatred regardless of whether they hit or not? I figured this out before the game even released and even people who don't know jack about the game before buying it will realize this by level 2. Did you buy your character?
As a side note, CF also generates hatred without hitting a target.
So? All of the abilities under the Primary branch generate hatred without hitting a target. Also, what you're missing about Spray of Teeth is that a critical hit explodes, hitting the same target a second time, and if the arrow also penetrates it is likely to come back around and strike a 3rd time. The skill is amazing with high crit chance.
My mistake, I thought the primaries worked differently.
However, regarding spray of teeth, what YOU are missing is that it is irrelevant how many times a shot pierces a target if the target is already dead after the first shot. Like I mentioned in my earlier post, the DPS of the character is determinative of whether you want a higher DPS or a screen-clearing move.
This is so nonsensical it's hard to respond to.
1) If everything dies in 1 crit in inferno, you must be playing act 1. in act 3 and beyond, while some mobs do die in 1 crit, there are many that will not, even with your gear.
2) Even if they die in 1 crit, the pierce will allow the arrow to continue further and hit subsequent mobs behind. Damage on covering fire is limited to 3 mobs maximum.
3) How the hell did you get to as far as you are without realizing that all generators generate hatred regardless of whether they hit or not? I figured this out before the game even released and even people who don't know jack about the game before buying it will realize this by level 2. Did you buy your character?
Evasire Fire w/ Cover fire and Hungering Arrow are both viable. They both have pros and cons. And depending on what gear you have (50% crit chance), one might be better than the other, although both benefit from higher crit chance obviously. HA can be seeking if you shoot it in the general area. With spray of teeth, it can hit the target twice in addition to being an AOE explosion. I find that puncture or devouring is better for single target (bosses) tho. Evasive fire will hit any 3 target on the screen so there isn't a whole lot of aiming either, and since the projectile is not rendered, I feel visually it has a faster hit time. When working as intended, evasive fire's backflip can save you. When it isn't, it can be the cause of your death (firing it while cornered isn't good!!) as my video has shown.
TL;DR Evasive Fire will hit up to 3 targets guaranteed, whereas HA has the chance to proc.
1) If everything dies in 1 crit in inferno, you must be playing act 1. in act 3 and beyond, while some mobs do die in 1 crit, there are many that will not, even with your gear.
You don't have my gear, and you obviously haven't seen my demonstration. I identify mobs that don't die in one hit to CF, and use cluster for them. It's not rocket science.
2) Even if they die in 1 crit, the pierce will allow the arrow to continue further and hit subsequent mobs behind. Damage on covering fire is limited to 3 mobs maximum.
You are presuming there are mobs behind, or within range for pierce. If mobs are dispersed in an arc, as they are when you encounter them, CF will always hit all three, whereas HA will not. I'm not even factoring in HA's 30% chance to pierce.
3) How the hell did you get to as far as you are without realizing that all generators generate hatred regardless of whether they hit or not? I figured this out before the game even released and even people who don't know jack about the game before buying it will realize this by level 2.
I've never felt that hatred generation was a significant issue, so I don't read on it or test it, which is why I originally brought it up as a side note. I've admitted my error, yet you feel compelled to make a weak personal insult the longest part of your rebuttal.
When I say that I think CF is better, it is because I honestly think it is after testing both, and I want other DH's on this board to be able to use the best skill. I justify my views with both theoretic and anecdotal evidence.
I've always stated, and I will restate because you appear to have poor reading comprehension, that the strength of each move is dependent on your gear and your playstyle. From your bitter diatribe, I can only presume that your gear is bad, and you find that CF does not work for you.
I didn't buy my character, but it seems like you could really benefit from buying mine
Wow. I've never seen so many faulty assumptions in one post. You're right -- I don't have your gear; I'd wager I have better. I have a bit less dps than you, but i'm still over 100k without sharpshooter, and voluntarily took a dps hit for 4 piece nats. If all i cared about was the dps number, i could just toss my nats set and go with zunimazas/andariels/beckons and my dps# could easily be > than yours. I've also seen your "demonstration" and i'm not impressed. I did that run an hour ago in 11 minutes even with 2 deaths. Permanent tactical advantage does wonders for cutting down on clear times.
You prefer using covering fire -- thats great. Doesn't change the fact that covering fire doesn't hold a candle to hungering arrow. Me "presuming" hungering arrow will pierce to targets behind isn't an outrageous presumption, the same as you will "presume" there are 3 mobs on the screen for you to hit with covering fire. I will admit, i tried covering fire before the last patch and was quite pleased with it. But most of that came from the fact that i was able to make trick shots from relative safety behind certain obstacles and still hit mobs out of line of site that i could not hit with hungering arrow. As far as im concerned, once they fixed covering fire's line of site exploit, the discussion was over -- hungering was the clear winner.
And as to your ignorance on hatred generation mechanics, I'm sorry but a demon hunter not knowing this is like a barbarian not knowing that fury degenerates. This isn't something that requires testing or playing close attention to the game, it's something that any demon hunter with basic observation and reasoning skills can gather as they level up starting from level 1. The fact that you've leveled to 60 and collected the gear you have without even knowing the most basic mechanics of our class makes me skeptical of your judgment and understanding of your class.
Wow. I've never seen so many faulty assumptions in one post. You're right -- I don't have your gear; I'd wager I have better. I have a bit less dps than you, but i'm still over 100k without sharpshooter, and voluntarily took a dps hit for 4 piece nats. If all i cared about was the dps number, i could just toss my nats set and go with zunimazas/andariels/beckons and my dps# could easily be > than yours. I've also seen your "demonstration" and i'm not impressed. I did that run an hour ago in 11 minutes even with 2 deaths. Permanent tactical advantage does wonders for cutting down on clear times.
You prefer using covering fire -- thats great. Doesn't change the fact that covering fire doesn't hold a candle to hungering arrow. Me "presuming" hungering arrow will pierce to targets behind isn't an outrageous presumption, the same as you will "presume" there are 3 mobs on the screen for you to hit with covering fire. I will admit, i tried covering fire before the last patch and was quite pleased with it. But most of that came from the fact that i was able to make trick shots from relative safety behind certain obstacles and still hit mobs out of line of site that i could not hit with hungering arrow. As far as im concerned, once they fixed covering fire's line of site exploit, the discussion was over -- hungering was the clear winner.
And as to your ignorance on hatred generation mechanics, I'm sorry but a demon hunter not knowing this is like a barbarian not knowing that fury degenerates. This isn't something that requires testing or playing close attention to the game, it's something that any demon hunter with basic observation and reasoning skills can gather as they level up starting from level 1. The fact that you've leveled to 60 and collected the gear you have without even knowing the most basic mechanics of our class makes me skeptical of your judgment and understanding of your class.
CF can still shoot through some walls/terrain like in the Keeps in Act III.
A lot of what keitaruz said is true. I've been running spray of teeth for weeks and it is absolutely secret op. It basically gives the same bonus as the crossbow archery passive, but 1) the 50% damage is done in an aoe that hits the initial target as well as all nearby targets, and 2) the 50% damage bonus counts as an extra hit, not just added bonus tacked on, which means the bonus itself CAN ALSO CRIT. This means that a crit-centric build with high crit% and crit damage will make your hungering arrows beastly. Evasive fire doesn't hold a candle to it, especially now that it no longer bypasses obstacles/walls. Grab a quiver with +% hungering arrow damage and your hungering arrow will basically out dps just about any hatred spender outside cluster bombs.
It's not OP in the least. Amount of targets times your crit chance needs to exceed 70% for it to beat other HA (single target) runes. So basically single target it's only better than other HA runes during SS - and I doubt you'd want to use HA when having stacked SS. For most players you need the proc to hit on average >2 targets for the rune to be even with single target HA runes.
So basically we have an AoE rune that outperforms other runes for the same skill at >2 targets when having stacked % crit and like >6 targets when not. I'm not sure whether you noticed it but that's true for every AoE skill in the game when compared to a similar single target skill - and those usually do not require you to stack crit to function at all.
The only reason it's being considered as more than average is that all AoE DH hatred generators are simply horrible - Bola Shot/Grenades are clunky and ineffective to use (unless for very very special builds) and Entangling Shot does less damage than auto shots do. That's why many people use Spray of Teeth/Splitting Arrow/Covering Fire - it provides a semi-AoE generator.
Go clear act 3 and keep a mental count of how many times you are fighting 1 mob and ONLY 1 mob. People get overly focused on the dichotomy of "single target" and "multiple target" encounters but they don't realize that something like 98% of the encounters in this game are multi target. If you are fighting 1 mob and ONLY 1 mob, devouring arrow will outperform spray, but the moment there are more than 1 mob on the screen spray will absolutely destroy all the other single target hungering runes. Additionally, the lead on spray over devouring arrow continues to grow the more mobs there are on the screen.
Aside from boss fights, single target encounters are extremely rare. You will encounter dozens of trash mobs at a time, champions comes in packs of threes, and elites have minions. As someone has already said, spray does tremendous aoe damage AND has the benefit of doing good single target damage. It's unquestionably the most versatile and useful hatred generator.
You may try actually reading posts before replying to them. You need to hit on average >2 (that means more than two) enemies with the explosions for the rune to benefit you over single target HA runes. This doesn't mean you need to be fighting >2 enemies but they also need to stand close to each other so the explosion actually hits them. Hitting two enemies with it you're only even with single target HA runes (assuming 35% crit).
Sure it's a viable rune at high crit levels but it's far from OP as you were calling it. Personally I'm not even using it most of the time since I only farm A3 on my DH (MF Wizard is more efficient in A1) and I don't enjoy those elite hunting runs so I basically do a 5 NV -> Cydaea -> Azmodan run like pre-patch. Any trash dies in a single Cluster Bomb anyway so I'm mostly using HA to off-screen hard packs (and I prefer focus damage for those - killing one of them allows me to tank the harder packs usually), kill stray runners and as a filler for the two boss fights.
Edit:
I even covered the point why it feels useful to begin with in my previous post. It's simply because our AoE generators suck so if you want an AoE generator, it's still your best bet. I'm not sure how Blizzard spent all those years, but they definitely didn't test Entangling Shot or Bola Shot. At least grenades are somewhat useful in a melee build.
Yea, and when I'm fighting more than 2 enemies, they're usually clumped up to where i can hit more than 1 with the explosion. I thought that leap was obvious and i didn't have to spell it out for you. I'm not really sure i trust your math, and if anyone else has the math for spray of teeth, I'm all ears. And i'm not sure why you've arbitrarily picked 35% crit when I and most DHs like me are closer to 50% if not more.
The reason i like spray over any other hungering arrow rune isn't because i "want an aoe generator" You need to stop thinking in such binary terms. I like spray because it is more useful to me in more situations. It does great single target dps (in the few situations where i need it) and it also does great aoe damage while costing no hatred. That's versatility, and that's what makes it better than any other hungering arrow rune.
DHs are only "close to 50% if not more" with Natalya's. Otherwise you need perfect crit rolls on every piece + Scoundrel to get to 50% crit without DW Archery. I'd also be at 100k without SS if I spent my gold on a new weapon while keeping 50 Disc, ~300 all resistances and ~30k HP and I'm at roughly 35% crit /w Scoundrel. To get any higher crit without sacrificing defensive stats or damage I'd basically have to spend like an additional 10 million (while selling mine) for the cheapest items that wouldn't even be upgrades but only sidegrades for the purpose of having higher crit.
And it's strictly inferior single target to other runes so that's where your trade-off lies even if you don't want to admit it - that's even the case at 50% crit. It'd be OP if it was stronger single target and AoE, but it simply isn't, so argue as much as you want, but your original statement of it being OP is simply false.
And as it has come up in the topic:
The additional proc damage is 50% weapon damage, not 50% of damage done. Thus the proc critting doesn't increase its scaling any further. It scales linearly with crit when looking at damage increase compared to not having the rune at all. It's not hard to calculate the damage per shot either:
sum_(x=0)^infinity 0.35^x (50 c t+115) = 76.9231 c t+176.923
Puncturing Arrow:
sum_(x=0)^infinity 115 0.5^x = 230.
Thus we can solve for ct:
76.9231 c t+176.923 = 230 => c t = 0.690001
I don't see what makes Natalyas any more special than the basic gettup that any other end game dh can buy. I'm sitting at 49% with the scoundrel and my natalyas doesn't have crit% on the helm or the ring. An end game DH can acquire strong rares in the helm and ring slot to more than make up for the 7% set bonus. If i were to switch out my crossbow for a dual-wield set up and upgrade my gloves and buy a nats gaze with crit%, I'd be closing in on 60% crit with the scoundrel. Is it cheap? no -- but it's absolutely attainable. You don't have the same crit % because you made a conscious choice to build a more sturdy dh as opposed to the traditional glass cannon, but that doesn't make it difficult to reach 50% crit or more if you so desired.
The point I'm trying to make and you seem to keep overlooking is that spray is bar none the most versatile hatred generator we have. I never said it would outdo either devouring or puncturing in regards to single target dps -- in fact I stated the exact opposite -- so I'm not sure why you keep focusing on spray's single target dps to try to prove your point. But you keep focusing on the dichotomy of "single target" vs. "multi target" as if they are equally valuable traits for a skill to have, which is absolute crap. The only time where you have 1 target and 1 target only to maximize the single target potential of devouring/puncturing is for act boss fights. Any other encounters where there is an extra target in the vicinity means your precious "single target" dps of hungering/devouring becomes diluted and is quickly outpaced by spray. And, considering the fact that this entire game is focused on multi target encounters as opposed to encounters where you fight 1 mob at a time, I'm kind of at a loss on why you keep trumpeting the single target damage potential of the other runes.
You yourself agree that spray is our most powerful aoe damage generator, yet you miraculously don't think it's op. You rationalize this by saying that it's not because spray is OP, it's because all our other aoe generators suck. Well, ever thought that that's because we were never MEANT to have a powerful aoe generator? I mean, using your logic, I can say pre-nerf nether tentacles wasn't op, it's just that all our other hatred spenders sucked.
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Generally, I want either an AOE primary and a single target secondary (Hungering[SoT]/Impale[Grievous Wounds], or a single target primary and an AOE secondary (Hungering[Devouring]/Elemental Arrow[Frost]), because there will always be situations where you need either AOE or single target damage, to be the most efficient. I never understood SoT/Cluster because to me they seem redundant: localized AOE DPS.
The DPS of the character is also a critical factor. At end-game gear levels, the majority of white mobs will die in one hit on a crit. Under this condition, the mathematically higher damage output of HA is not as significant as the hitbox of CF, if everything is dying in one hit anyways. If you aren't at these DPS levels, then HA may be more efficient.
Finally, playstyle. I play a speed-farm, glass cannon DH, and I try to kill as quickly as possible and cover as much ground as quickly as possible, bypassing white mobs if there are no more elites and I can safely zone out. The mechanics of Spray of Teeth make it inferior for my playstyle. It has good AOE, but in a small radius. If I want to minimize my shots fired and maximize my running time, I want an attack with a wide radius and CF has an arc of nearly 60 degrees. The instantaneous hitscan nature of CF also makes for a more fluid run, in my opinion. As a side note, CF also generates hatred without hitting a target.
Run through the same level with different builds. Do you notice a more fluid run? Do you die less? Is it noticeably faster/easier? Do you find yourself missing a particular mechanic? In the end what the "best skill" is, depends on you.
Demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6OQUGvWb08
He plays a 100% viable trap/LOH style.
Demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6OQUGvWb08
So? All of the abilities under the Primary branch generate hatred without hitting a target. Also, what you're missing about Spray of Teeth is that a critical hit explodes, hitting the same target a second time, and if the arrow also penetrates it is likely to come back around and strike a 3rd time. The skill is amazing with high crit chance.
I've tried Cluster Bombs, and much like Grenades, maybe its the animation, but it just feels awkward and slow to use. I think it drops about 6 bombs in a straight line? But it looks like those bombs will always start about 15-20 yds away from my hero which is just too damn close. Granted you are using that in conjunction with caltrope which makes aiming it faster. I guess you have to kite elite/rare packs anyway so it may work for you. I just like the instant gratification of loaded w/ bears since my APS is now 1.49. It's a very fast projectile!!
And I agree the Evasive Fire/Cover Fire animation needs work. It is lackluster in that department by far. I think because its seeking there was laziness getting 3 projectiles to shoot out and hit the 3 different targets at the exact same time. It may very well work to our advantage tho since they don't physically drawn on screen.
profile: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/vanboon-1499/hero/3962228
http://i.imgur.com/8AfIp.jpg 4/4pc natalyza dps: 73k (w/o ss), dex: 1967, health: 22k, resist: ~150, mf: 90%/261%
Go clear act 3 and keep a mental count of how many times you are fighting 1 mob and ONLY 1 mob. People get overly focused on the dichotomy of "single target" and "multiple target" encounters but they don't realize that something like 98% of the encounters in this game are multi target. If you are fighting 1 mob and ONLY 1 mob, devouring arrow will outperform spray, but the moment there are more than 1 mob on the screen spray will absolutely destroy all the other single target hungering runes. Additionally, the lead on spray over devouring arrow continues to grow the more mobs there are on the screen.
Aside from boss fights, single target encounters are extremely rare. You will encounter dozens of trash mobs at a time, champions comes in packs of threes, and elites have minions. As someone has already said, spray does tremendous aoe damage AND has the benefit of doing good single target damage. It's unquestionably the most versatile and useful hatred generator.
Yea, and when I'm fighting more than 2 enemies, they're usually clumped up to where i can hit more than 1 with the explosion. I thought that leap was obvious and i didn't have to spell it out for you. I'm not really sure i trust your math, and if anyone else has the math for spray of teeth, I'm all ears. And i'm not sure why you've arbitrarily picked 35% crit when I and most DHs like me are closer to 50% if not more.
The reason i like spray over any other hungering arrow rune isn't because i "want an aoe generator" You need to stop thinking in such binary terms. I like spray because it is more useful to me in more situations. It does great single target dps (in the few situations where i need it) and it also does great aoe damage while costing no hatred. That's versatility, and that's what makes it better than any other hungering arrow rune.
In this example, the explosion itself also has 30% chance to crit, and also benefits from extra crit damage. That's what makes calculating the dps of the rune so difficult.
I agree. Although this is merely anecdotal and my own speculation, the explosion seems to almost always crit, and it nearly does the same amount of damage as the original shot, maybe 10-15k less than a 110k crit. Supposedly the explosion should hit for 50%, but it seems much stronger than that.
Your math is borked because you are accumulating two independent events. An illustrative example is, imagine that SoT also had a 50% chance to turn the target into a narwhal. Obviously, you could fail the pierce roll (70% chance), fail the crit roll (70% chance), and then fail the narwhal roll (50% chance), and end up with a regular arrow. Under your math, you would have a 30% + 30% + 50% = 110% of at least one of the effects, which is incorrect.
Considering only the two possibilities you brought up and ignoring subsequent pierces, the initial hit would have a 30% chance of piercing, for 200% damage,and a 30% of critting, for [let's pretend] 300% damage, for an expected value of (.3)(200) + (.3)(300) = 150% of HA's base multiplier (115%).
If you are using sharpshooter, the explosion occurs within the 1s window of the original crit that triggered it, so it will have 100% crit.
Demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6OQUGvWb08
My mistake, I thought the primaries worked differently.
However, regarding spray of teeth, what YOU are missing is that it is irrelevant how many times a shot pierces a target if the target is already dead after the first shot. Like I mentioned in my earlier post, the DPS of the character is determinative of whether you want a higher DPS or a screen-clearing move.
Demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6OQUGvWb08
This is so nonsensical it's hard to respond to.
1) If everything dies in 1 crit in inferno, you must be playing act 1. in act 3 and beyond, while some mobs do die in 1 crit, there are many that will not, even with your gear.
2) Even if they die in 1 crit, the pierce will allow the arrow to continue further and hit subsequent mobs behind. Damage on covering fire is limited to 3 mobs maximum.
3) How the hell did you get to as far as you are without realizing that all generators generate hatred regardless of whether they hit or not? I figured this out before the game even released and even people who don't know jack about the game before buying it will realize this by level 2. Did you buy your character?
Evasire Fire w/ Cover fire and Hungering Arrow are both viable. They both have pros and cons. And depending on what gear you have (50% crit chance), one might be better than the other, although both benefit from higher crit chance obviously. HA can be seeking if you shoot it in the general area. With spray of teeth, it can hit the target twice in addition to being an AOE explosion. I find that puncture or devouring is better for single target (bosses) tho. Evasive fire will hit any 3 target on the screen so there isn't a whole lot of aiming either, and since the projectile is not rendered, I feel visually it has a faster hit time. When working as intended, evasive fire's backflip can save you. When it isn't, it can be the cause of your death (firing it while cornered isn't good!!) as my video has shown.
TL;DR Evasive Fire will hit up to 3 targets guaranteed, whereas HA has the chance to proc.
profile: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/vanboon-1499/hero/3962228
http://i.imgur.com/8AfIp.jpg 4/4pc natalyza dps: 73k (w/o ss), dex: 1967, health: 22k, resist: ~150, mf: 90%/261%
You are presuming there are mobs behind, or within range for pierce. If mobs are dispersed in an arc, as they are when you encounter them, CF will always hit all three, whereas HA will not. I'm not even factoring in HA's 30% chance to pierce.
I've never felt that hatred generation was a significant issue, so I don't read on it or test it, which is why I originally brought it up as a side note. I've admitted my error, yet you feel compelled to make a weak personal insult the longest part of your rebuttal.
When I say that I think CF is better, it is because I honestly think it is after testing both, and I want other DH's on this board to be able to use the best skill. I justify my views with both theoretic and anecdotal evidence.
I've always stated, and I will restate because you appear to have poor reading comprehension, that the strength of each move is dependent on your gear and your playstyle. From your bitter diatribe, I can only presume that your gear is bad, and you find that CF does not work for you.
I didn't buy my character, but it seems like you could really benefit from buying mine
Demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6OQUGvWb08
You prefer using covering fire -- thats great. Doesn't change the fact that covering fire doesn't hold a candle to hungering arrow. Me "presuming" hungering arrow will pierce to targets behind isn't an outrageous presumption, the same as you will "presume" there are 3 mobs on the screen for you to hit with covering fire. I will admit, i tried covering fire before the last patch and was quite pleased with it. But most of that came from the fact that i was able to make trick shots from relative safety behind certain obstacles and still hit mobs out of line of site that i could not hit with hungering arrow. As far as im concerned, once they fixed covering fire's line of site exploit, the discussion was over -- hungering was the clear winner.
And as to your ignorance on hatred generation mechanics, I'm sorry but a demon hunter not knowing this is like a barbarian not knowing that fury degenerates. This isn't something that requires testing or playing close attention to the game, it's something that any demon hunter with basic observation and reasoning skills can gather as they level up starting from level 1. The fact that you've leveled to 60 and collected the gear you have without even knowing the most basic mechanics of our class makes me skeptical of your judgment and understanding of your class.
CF can still shoot through some walls/terrain like in the Keeps in Act III.
profile: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/vanboon-1499/hero/3962228
http://i.imgur.com/8AfIp.jpg 4/4pc natalyza dps: 73k (w/o ss), dex: 1967, health: 22k, resist: ~150, mf: 90%/261%
I don't see what makes Natalyas any more special than the basic gettup that any other end game dh can buy. I'm sitting at 49% with the scoundrel and my natalyas doesn't have crit% on the helm or the ring. An end game DH can acquire strong rares in the helm and ring slot to more than make up for the 7% set bonus. If i were to switch out my crossbow for a dual-wield set up and upgrade my gloves and buy a nats gaze with crit%, I'd be closing in on 60% crit with the scoundrel. Is it cheap? no -- but it's absolutely attainable. You don't have the same crit % because you made a conscious choice to build a more sturdy dh as opposed to the traditional glass cannon, but that doesn't make it difficult to reach 50% crit or more if you so desired.
The point I'm trying to make and you seem to keep overlooking is that spray is bar none the most versatile hatred generator we have. I never said it would outdo either devouring or puncturing in regards to single target dps -- in fact I stated the exact opposite -- so I'm not sure why you keep focusing on spray's single target dps to try to prove your point. But you keep focusing on the dichotomy of "single target" vs. "multi target" as if they are equally valuable traits for a skill to have, which is absolute crap. The only time where you have 1 target and 1 target only to maximize the single target potential of devouring/puncturing is for act boss fights. Any other encounters where there is an extra target in the vicinity means your precious "single target" dps of hungering/devouring becomes diluted and is quickly outpaced by spray. And, considering the fact that this entire game is focused on multi target encounters as opposed to encounters where you fight 1 mob at a time, I'm kind of at a loss on why you keep trumpeting the single target damage potential of the other runes.
You yourself agree that spray is our most powerful aoe damage generator, yet you miraculously don't think it's op. You rationalize this by saying that it's not because spray is OP, it's because all our other aoe generators suck. Well, ever thought that that's because we were never MEANT to have a powerful aoe generator? I mean, using your logic, I can say pre-nerf nether tentacles wasn't op, it's just that all our other hatred spenders sucked.