I guess I was the naive one to think that the "community" over here was more mature than the official forums.
I guess you have, after all, proven me wrong about something.
Oh, and your "argument" that haunt sucks? Its meaningless unless you can "prove" it, unfortunately you've so far displayed an inability to do so. You've pretty much displayed an inability to do much of anything. One could argue based on that, that so far you've been useless to this thread.
edit: logic is fun
It would be hard or at least tiring to mathematically prove that haunt is crap. Anyone who understood that would already know haunt sucks, but seeing as you don't then you probably wouldn't be able to understand or accept it anyways. So in the end I would just be wasting my time.
Just think of this sort of like global warming and evolution. Don't bother thinking about the validity of it, rather just accept that some really smart people already figured this shit out for you and that you should just accept it.
You seriously just said proving something Diablo based with math is hard? Seriously? The math involved is incredibly simple. You could have just said that you don't know how. Don't worry nobody would have thought anything less of you.
Considering you haven't provided links to any of this stuff these really smart people have figured out, I think I'll pass on taking your word for it.
#4 Glass cannon and magic weapon and + attack and +intellect have all been tested, and proven to work as multiplicative effects.
Its interesting you mention these two skills only. Considering neither mention "additional damage." Of course, the logic taken to deduce a word such as "additional" is referring to additively when needed for computations, eluding you isn't that surprising either. At least not when the authority you've established yourself with, is what we've seen ITT.
I guess I was the naive one to think that the "community" over here was more mature than the official forums.
I guess you have, after all, proven me wrong about something.
Oh, and your "argument" that haunt sucks? Its meaningless unless you can "prove" it, unfortunately you've so far displayed an inability to do so. You've pretty much displayed an inability to do much of anything. One could argue based on that, that so far you've been useless to this thread.
edit: logic is fun
It would be hard or at least tiring to mathematically prove that haunt is crap. Anyone who understood that would already know haunt sucks, but seeing as you don't then you probably wouldn't be able to understand or accept it anyways. So in the end I would just be wasting my time.
Just think of this sort of like global warming and evolution. Don't bother thinking about the validity of it, rather just accept that some really smart people already figured this shit out for you and that you should just accept it.
You seriously just said proving something Diablo based with math is hard? Seriously? The math involved is incredibly simple. You could have just said that you don't know how. Don't worry nobody would have thought anything less of you.
Considering you haven't provided links to any of this stuff these really smart people have figured out, I think I'll pass on taking your word for it.
#4 Glass cannon and magic weapon and + attack and +intellect have all been tested, and proven to work as multiplicative effects.
Its interesting you mention these two skills only. Considering neither mention "additional damage." Of course, the logic taken to deduce a word such as "additional" is referring to additively when needed for computations, eluding you isn't that surprising either. At least not when the authority you've established yourself with, is what we've seen ITT.
How can someone be this dumb? I think its pretty obvious why you left the battle net forums.
I am just going to report you for trolling. I have made a lot of points and you haven't addressed one of them. Its obvious you don't want an intelligent conversation.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
IMHO, Haunt isn't completely useless. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, Haunt can still be used to gain a lot of life per second. According to the Consuming Spirit tooltip, it can leech at a maximum of 155 life per second for every unique target. Since generally Witch Doctors (along with Wizards) would have the lowest Vitality, I'd say this is pretty good for a cheap 15 mana cost.
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"We have a hockey stick in one hand, a beer in the other, we all wear toques and live in igloos. Right, world?"
How to judge haunt sucks. Cast haunt on SK in beta. Watch 1-2 dmg ticks. Watch Every single other ability hit/tick for 10+
Fact: Haunt is underpowered to the point of being basically useless unless used in an incredibly long term fight. Even still, you could use better abilities with bigger damage output instead of haunt.
Considering the only support I gave for Haunt ITT was based on the Resentful Spirit rune effect, maybe we should look at some damage which might be leading you to believe this:
Base Haunt:
9 mana per cast
360% weapon damage over 15 seconds
this gives us 24% weapon damage per second
which gives us 2.66% weapon damage per mana
Resentful Spirit Haunt:
9 mana per cast
180% weapon damage over 3 seconds
this gives us 60% weapon damage per second
which gives us 6.66% weapon damage per mana
Now, looking at those #'s alone we see that Resentful Spirit gives us 2.5 times more weapon damage per second.
If that still doesn't convince you its not a worthless skill, perhaps thinking of Haunt and Poison Dart as signature spells for the Witch Doctor would make more sense. Their mana costs are so small that most likely at any and all points in a Witch Doctor's career, they will have more mana regen than casting cost for either of these skills.
That means, figuring their effectiveness is subjective based on the build you are working with. If you've already got enough "spenders" (anything over 60 per cast, I'd say) then perhaps taking Haunt or Poison Dart isn't such a bad idea.
I'd rather have SOME damage output when oom, than none at all. Thats how I look at it at least.
If you look at the abilities for monks healing, some wd spells, even potions.. they're all in the thousands.. 35,000 for a single potion, which is ROUGHLY GUESSTIMATED at 15% of total hp.. so 155 life per second seems incredibly low for haunt to heal back at higher levels.
How can someone be this dumb? I think its pretty obvious why you left the battle net forums.
I am just going to report you for trolling. I have made a lot of points and you haven't addressed one of them. Its obvious you don't want an intelligent conversation.
Your reading comprehension skills are somewhat lacking. I never said I left the official forums. Quote ONE "point" you've made. Other than cussing of course.
How old are you btw? If you are as young as you appear, perhaps I should "dumb down" my thinking and word usage as clearly we've hit an impasse. At least, thats my assumption based on all the swearing and anger coming from your end.
If you look at the abilities for monks healing, some wd spells, even potions.. they're all in the thousands.. 35,000 for a single potion, which is ROUGHLY GUESSTIMATED at 15% of total hp.. so 155 life per second seems incredibly low for haunt to heal back at higher levels.
You also have to remember though, you can have UNLIMITED Haunts active at any point in time. If you choose that rune, the level of healing you receive from the skill is entirely up to you
If you look at the abilities for monks healing, some wd spells, even potions.. they're all in the thousands.. 35,000 for a single potion, which is ROUGHLY GUESSTIMATED at 15% of total hp.. so 155 life per second seems incredibly low for haunt to heal back at higher levels.
You also have to remember though, you can have UNLIMITED Haunts active at any point in time. If you choose that rune, the level of healing you receive from the skill is entirely up to you
Please just ignore our local troll here. He doesn't understand simple concepts. Like you can't have unlimited haunts.
If you look at the abilities for monks healing, some wd spells, even potions.. they're all in the thousands.. 35,000 for a single potion, which is ROUGHLY GUESSTIMATED at 15% of total hp.. so 155 life per second seems incredibly low for haunt to heal back at higher levels.
Where are you getting 15% at? I would think it would be much higher than that with the long cooldown.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
If you look at the abilities for monks healing, some wd spells, even potions.. they're all in the thousands.. 35,000 for a single potion, which is ROUGHLY GUESSTIMATED at 15% of total hp.. so 155 life per second seems incredibly low for haunt to heal back at higher levels.
You're right, the other classes do have better healing skills than the WD. Since this class lacks a decent source of life regain (potions have a cooldown, so their limited to one use per mob fight), I think the 155 life leech from a number of different targets is the best way for the WD to gain health without worrying for cooldowns.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"We have a hockey stick in one hand, a beer in the other, we all wear toques and live in igloos. Right, world?"
You also have to remember though, you can have UNLIMITED Haunts active at any point in time. If you choose that rune, the level of healing you receive from the skill is entirely up to you
Please just ignore our local troll here. He doesn't understand simple concepts. Like you can't have unlimited haunts.
You also have to remember though, you can have UNLIMITED Haunts active at any point in time. If you choose that rune, the level of healing you receive from the skill is entirely up to you
Please just ignore our local troll here. He doesn't understand simple concepts. Like you can't have unlimited haunts.
I can't tell......are you.....serious?
Go back to the battlenet forums that you ran away from like a little girl. You aren't going to let them get away with calling you an idiot are you?
If you look at the abilities for monks healing, some wd spells, even potions.. they're all in the thousands.. 35,000 for a single potion, which is ROUGHLY GUESSTIMATED at 15% of total hp.. so 155 life per second seems incredibly low for haunt to heal back at higher levels.
You're right, the other classes do have better healing skills than the WD. Since this class lacks a decent source of life regain (potions have a cooldown, so their limited to one use per mob fight), I think the 155 life leech from a number of different targets is the best way for the WD to gain health without worrying for cooldowns.
Idk about that.
Sacrifice can yield over 47k worth of healing, and soul harvest, which is only a 15 sec CD, can yield over 20k hp.
The wizard in contrast has no direct heals, and only has a heal over time if she takes galvanizing ward.
Well magic weapon - blood magic - might heal...maybe.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
If you look at the abilities for monks healing, some wd spells, even potions.. they're all in the thousands.. 35,000 for a single potion, which is ROUGHLY GUESSTIMATED at 15% of total hp.. so 155 life per second seems incredibly low for haunt to heal back at higher levels.
You're right, the other classes do have better healing skills than the WD. Since this class lacks a decent source of life regain (potions have a cooldown, so their limited to one use per mob fight), I think the 155 life leech from a number of different targets is the best way for the WD to gain health without worrying for cooldowns.
Idk about that.
Sacrifice can yield over 47k worth of healing, and sacrifice which is only a 15 sec CD can yield over 20k hp.
The wizard in contrast has no direct heals, and only has a heal over time if she takes galvanizing ward.
Well magic weapon - blood magic - might heal...maybe.
True, Sacrifice is also a great alternative. The only problem I have with it is that in order for me to use it I have to allocate that and Summon Zombie Dogs in two slots, and these skills have no effectiveness in my build. For anyone else's build, I'm sure it would work great for the same purpose.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"We have a hockey stick in one hand, a beer in the other, we all wear toques and live in igloos. Right, world?"
i did say 15% was a rough guesstimate, but clearly those 2 words mean nothing in this arguement. I thought haunt could only affect 3 enemies at most? that or i'm reading back to patch 3/4
If you look at the abilities for monks healing, some wd spells, even potions.. they're all in the thousands.. 35,000 for a single potion, which is ROUGHLY GUESSTIMATED at 15% of total hp.. so 155 life per second seems incredibly low for haunt to heal back at higher levels.
You're right, the other classes do have better healing skills than the WD. Since this class lacks a decent source of life regain (potions have a cooldown, so their limited to one use per mob fight), I think the 155 life leech from a number of different targets is the best way for the WD to gain health without worrying for cooldowns.
Idk about that.
Sacrifice can yield over 47k worth of healing, and sacrifice which is only a 15 sec CD can yield over 20k hp.
The wizard in contrast has no direct heals, and only has a heal over time if she takes galvanizing ward.
Well magic weapon - blood magic - might heal...maybe.
True, Sacrifice is also a great alternative. The only problem I have with it is that in order for me to use it I have to allocate that and Summon Zombie Dogs in two slots, and these skills have no effectiveness in my build. For anyone else's build, I'm sure it would work great for the same purpose.
True. Though even in the standard persons build they would only be useful in a situation where you were going to run away or the CD was ready. I have been debating on it, but I really like soul harvest.
The mana return from sacrifice is pretty intriguing as well. 180 mana per dog, for up to 720 mana. That is nearly your full mana bar back at 60.
i did say 15% was a rough guesstimate, but clearly those 2 words mean nothing in this arguement. I thought haunt could only affect 3 enemies at most? that or i'm reading back to patch 3/4
It did a long time ago, but it was changed. Now you can cast it as much as you want.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
i did say 15% was a rough guesstimate, but clearly those 2 words mean nothing in this arguement. I thought haunt could only affect 3 enemies at most? that or i'm reading back to patch 3/4
Its not your fault, Antirepublican has been giving incorrect information on quite a few things ITT. But yes, the cap of 3 Haunts has been removed for at least 2 patches now. This thread does a good job illustrating that its pretty common knowledge, and has been for over a month:
i hardly read patch notes, as im not in beta. But even still. casting haunt 9x on a group of mobs would take longer to do than pop grasp and burn with acid rain or even poison dart spam. And not to mention the fact that i'd probably only get 2 ticks before the monsters died, which again, seems like more time wasted than gained.
i hardly read patch notes, as im not in beta. But even still. casting haunt 9x on a group of mobs would take longer to do than pop grasp and burn with acid rain or even poison dart spam. And not to mention the fact that i'd probably only get 2 ticks before the monsters died, which again, seems like more time wasted than gained.
Sorry I should've been more specific...I'm not suggesting spamming Haunt on EVERY enemy as that would get INCREDIBLY tedious lol. But, it does have a few good qualities:
it can bypass environmental obstacles thus letting you target and deal damage to ANY enemy you can see on the screen, whenever you want
you can have as many applications as you want, giving you a great additional damage source vs. elite monster groups
it has good rune effect choices with healing, slowing, increased damage, and mana regen properties
it is incredibly cheap mana wise, making it a great fit for mana intensive builds
Base Haunt:
9 mana per cast
360% weapon damage over 15 seconds
this gives us 24% weapon damage per second
which gives us 2.66% weapon damage per mana
Resentful Spirit Haunt:
9 mana per cast
180% weapon damage over 3 seconds
this gives us 60% weapon damage per second
which gives us 6.66% weapon damage per mana
This math is wrong.
Base Haunt:
9 mana per cast
360% weapon damage over 15 seconds
this gives us 24% weapon damage per second
which gives us 2.66% weapon damage per second per mana Which is actually 40% weapon damage per mana.
Resentful Spirit Haunt:
9 mana per cast
180% weapon damage over 3 seconds
this gives us 60% weapon damage per second
which gives us 6.66% weapon damage per second per mana Which is actually 20% weapon damage per mana.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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You seriously just said proving something Diablo based with math is hard? Seriously? The math involved is incredibly simple. You could have just said that you don't know how. Don't worry nobody would have thought anything less of you.
Considering you haven't provided links to any of this stuff these really smart people have figured out, I think I'll pass on taking your word for it.
Oh, and
Its interesting you mention these two skills only. Considering neither mention "additional damage." Of course, the logic taken to deduce a word such as "additional" is referring to additively when needed for computations, eluding you isn't that surprising either. At least not when the authority you've established yourself with, is what we've seen ITT.
How can someone be this dumb? I think its pretty obvious why you left the battle net forums.
I am just going to report you for trolling. I have made a lot of points and you haven't addressed one of them. Its obvious you don't want an intelligent conversation.
Epicurus
Considering the only support I gave for Haunt ITT was based on the Resentful Spirit rune effect, maybe we should look at some damage which might be leading you to believe this:
Base Haunt:
9 mana per cast
360% weapon damage over 15 seconds
this gives us 24% weapon damage per second
which gives us 2.66% weapon damage per mana
Resentful Spirit Haunt:
9 mana per cast
180% weapon damage over 3 seconds
this gives us 60% weapon damage per second
which gives us 6.66% weapon damage per mana
Now, looking at those #'s alone we see that Resentful Spirit gives us 2.5 times more weapon damage per second.
If that still doesn't convince you its not a worthless skill, perhaps thinking of Haunt and Poison Dart as signature spells for the Witch Doctor would make more sense. Their mana costs are so small that most likely at any and all points in a Witch Doctor's career, they will have more mana regen than casting cost for either of these skills.
That means, figuring their effectiveness is subjective based on the build you are working with. If you've already got enough "spenders" (anything over 60 per cast, I'd say) then perhaps taking Haunt or Poison Dart isn't such a bad idea.
I'd rather have SOME damage output when oom, than none at all. Thats how I look at it at least.
Your reading comprehension skills are somewhat lacking. I never said I left the official forums. Quote ONE "point" you've made. Other than cussing of course.
How old are you btw? If you are as young as you appear, perhaps I should "dumb down" my thinking and word usage as clearly we've hit an impasse. At least, thats my assumption based on all the swearing and anger coming from your end.
You also have to remember though, you can have UNLIMITED Haunts active at any point in time. If you choose that rune, the level of healing you receive from the skill is entirely up to you
Please just ignore our local troll here. He doesn't understand simple concepts. Like you can't have unlimited haunts.
Where are you getting 15% at? I would think it would be much higher than that with the long cooldown.
Epicurus
You're right, the other classes do have better healing skills than the WD. Since this class lacks a decent source of life regain (potions have a cooldown, so their limited to one use per mob fight), I think the 155 life leech from a number of different targets is the best way for the WD to gain health without worrying for cooldowns.
I can't tell......are you.....serious?
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Go back to the battlenet forums that you ran away from like a little girl. You aren't going to let them get away with calling you an idiot are you?
Idk about that.
Sacrifice can yield over 47k worth of healing, and soul harvest, which is only a 15 sec CD, can yield over 20k hp.
The wizard in contrast has no direct heals, and only has a heal over time if she takes galvanizing ward.
Well magic weapon - blood magic - might heal...maybe.
Epicurus
True, Sacrifice is also a great alternative. The only problem I have with it is that in order for me to use it I have to allocate that and Summon Zombie Dogs in two slots, and these skills have no effectiveness in my build. For anyone else's build, I'm sure it would work great for the same purpose.
The mana return from sacrifice is pretty intriguing as well. 180 mana per dog, for up to 720 mana. That is nearly your full mana bar back at 60.
It did a long time ago, but it was changed. Now you can cast it as much as you want.
Epicurus
Its not your fault, Antirepublican has been giving incorrect information on quite a few things ITT. But yes, the cap of 3 Haunts has been removed for at least 2 patches now. This thread does a good job illustrating that its pretty common knowledge, and has been for over a month:
http://us.battle.net...ic/3988300956#6
I love it.
Sorry I should've been more specific...I'm not suggesting spamming Haunt on EVERY enemy as that would get INCREDIBLY tedious lol. But, it does have a few good qualities:
Base Haunt:
9 mana per cast
360% weapon damage over 15 seconds
this gives us 24% weapon damage per second
which gives us 2.66% weapon damage per second per mana
Which is actually 40% weapon damage per mana.
Resentful Spirit Haunt:
9 mana per cast
180% weapon damage over 3 seconds
this gives us 60% weapon damage per second
which gives us 6.66% weapon damage per second per mana
Which is actually 20% weapon damage per mana.