Here's an idea about how DoTs work in D3, without me having Beta.
This is all speculation and could just be overanalyzing of Blizzard's poor skill descriptions.
First of all, DoTs are different from channeled spells. Firebats isn't a DoT exactly, or not what I would call a DoT. Channeled spells drain mana continuously, but DoTs you only cast once and last for a certain duration.
There are 3 types of descriptions you notice with dots.
1) Something happens per/every second.
2) Something happens over X amount of seconds.
3) Something happens for X amount of seconds.
For example, Locust Swarm looks like this: 320% damage as Poison OVER 8 seconds. The Fire Pit rune for Firebomb says 8% weapon damage PER SECOND as fire for 3sec. And the description for Grasp of the Dead says 20% weapon damage as physical FOR 8sec.
Now I'll start speculating...
What I'm thinking is that the abilities that say per/every second will tick once every second no matter what, and are unaffected by weapon speed. Meaning that it's much better to have a slow weapon because it'll tick every second no matter what. Mammoth Hydra is an example of this. But remember that the unruned Hydra is different because it doesn't use a dot but spits projectiles.
The abilities that say over X amount of seconds are affected by weapon speed, but do not really gain a massive bonus from it. For example, if you have a 100 damage / 1.5 speed weapon VS a 150 damage / 1.0 speed weapon, you'll do the same amount of damage with Locust Swarm. However, with a 1.5 speed weapon the ticks will just be faster. Meaning that if you have something that procs each time an enemy is hit, perhaps the faster attack speed would be better. But overall, the damage will be the same.
Then there's the for X amount of seconds description. At this point I think that these abilities will do the described weapon damage for each tick no matter what. This means that these abilities are very good when you have increased attack speed. In addition to Grasp of the Dead, you also have the Enchantress ability Erosion and Rain of Vengeance as abilities that say this. The point here is that if you have a 0.5 weapon speed you'll do 75% weapon damage every 0.5 seconds with Rain of Vengeance. And if you have a 2.0 weapon speed, you'll do 75% every 2.0 seconds. So these abilities with cooldowns are designed to be better for attack speed builds.
It should also be realized that when a skill says FOR X amount of seconds, it tends to be an ability that has a cooldown versus when it says OVER or PER SEC there tends to be no cooldown. Earthquake and Rain of Toads are exceptions to this since Earthquake says OVER but has a cooldown and Rain of Toads says FOR 2sec and doesn't.
So in conclusion... the skill descriptions are perhaps not as random as people think they are. And while most DoT abilities could be unaffected by attack speed vs weapon damage, a select few abilities could be dramatically affected.
Upon further investigation... most of what I said is false really.
It seems like these different descriptions all mean the same thing and all that changes is the rate at which your dots tick. Fast weapon = lots of small dot ticks. Slow weapon = few high damage dot ticks. So the damage will always be the same.
However, I'm thinking that Life on Hit could work for dots because it's clear that other characters are able to attack very fast using direct damage abilities. I would imagine that Life on Hit works for those, so it could possibly work for some dots.
It would make sense to some degree since Life on Kill and health globe healing is more beneficial to people who kill one monster at a time, which is not what dots are best for.
Dots from the same spell don't stack unless they're used by two different players. The only advantage to using a faster weapon with dots seems to be the faster ticks which could proc abilities or count towards Life on Hit. Also, it's worth noting that abilities that benefit from crit may work with dots, in which case having faster ticks would be more beneficial.
What I'm thinking is that the abilities that say per/every second will tick once every second no matter what, and are unaffected by weapon speed. Meaning that it's much better to have a slow weapon because it'll tick every second no matter what. Mammoth Hydra is an example of this. But remember that the unruned Hydra is different because it doesn't use a dot but spits projectiles.
Yes, this seems to be an accurate and fair assumption. I agree.
The abilities that say over X amount of seconds are affected by weapon speed, but do not really gain a massive bonus from it. For example, if you have a 100 damage / 1.5 speed weapon VS a 150 damage / 1.0 speed weapon, you'll do the same amount of damage with Locust Swarm. However, with a 1.5 speed weapon the ticks will just be faster. Meaning that if you have something that procs each time an enemy is hit, perhaps the faster attack speed would be better. But overall, the damage will be the same.
So the duration is always the same here right? You're saying just the ticks get faster (and that means more of them then) but the damage PER TICK is lowered then? And if you get a slower weapon there will be less ticks but they hit harder. All this time the duration is constant.
I can agree with that. I guess there's no big advantges here except for things that proc off crits / hits like you said since there will be more ticks going on.
Then there's the for X amount of seconds description. At this point I think that these abilities will do the described weapon damage for each tick no matter what. This means that these abilities are very good when you have increased attack speed. In addition to Grasp of the Dead, you also have the Enchantress ability Erosion and Rain of Vengeance as abilities that say this. The point here is that if you have a 0.5 weapon speed you'll do 75% weapon damage every 0.5 seconds with Rain of Vengeance. And if you have a 2.0 weapon speed, you'll do 75% every 2.0 seconds. So these abilities with cooldowns are designed to be better for attack speed builds.
I could see it working like that. I could also see it as Blizzard just using different wording for no real reason and that ultimately it's the same as "over".
So as another way to put what you said though, if you have 1.5 APS and a skill that does 200% Weapon Damage FOR 5 seconds, then you'll do 300% Weapon Damage every second (1.5 x 200)? Seems plausible enough. But it also seems like Attack Speed can make these types of spells really powerful.
Are there any spells like this that have a really high Weapon Damage? If so, I would think it DOESN'T work that way because my example seems OP. If all the FOR spells are "lower" and "reasonable" damage, then I can see it working like this.
I also once thought that maybe FOR skills have their own built in APS. Like Grasp of the Dead hits at a certain speed all the time that is not tied to the player APS and is not tied to "per second". Just another theory that should be easily tested by someone less lazy than me (I'll probably try it out in the next few days if I can't find an answer).
It should also be realized that when a skill says FOR X amount of seconds, it tends to be an ability that has a cooldown versus when it says OVER or PER SEC there tends to be no cooldown. Earthquake and Rain of Toads are exceptions to this since Earthquake says OVER but has a cooldown and Rain of Toads says FOR 2sec and doesn't.
Also, Rain of Toads says "over" 2 seconds and Earthquake probably has a cooldown based on it's ridiculous damage.
So in conclusion... the skill descriptions are perhaps not as random as people think they are. And while most DoT abilities could be unaffected by attack speed vs weapon damage, a select few abilities could be dramatically affected.
Makes sense if it works like that. Would make the choice of your weapons mean a little more. I hope this is something that gets 100% cleared up by Blizzard at some point (or really smart theorycrafters).
Upon further investigation... most of what I said is false really.
It seems like these different descriptions all mean the same thing and all that changes is the rate at which your dots tick. Fast weapon = lots of small dot ticks. Slow weapon = few high damage dot ticks. So the damage will always be the same.
Even on things that say "per second"? I would assume those are locked into a certain speed still? If not that is really confusing.
Well, as I said earlier in this post, it wouldn't surprise me if "over" and "for" turned out to be the same (I wrote all of that after just reading your OP and didn't read any responses).
Yeah sorry about that lol... I'll put a disclaimer at the top x_x
I'm pretty sure that all dots work the same way and don't really benefit from attack speed in any special way. The only thing is that if you can gain an advantage from things that proc on critical strikes, etc.
Other than that, it's just slow strong ticks vs fast weak ticks. Yeah, even things that say per second should tick faster if your attack speed is above 1. You could maybe try to make the case that those abilities will simply use your DPS, meaning that your damage would be higher than normal but your attack speed reduced to the 1.0 on the dot.
But it's unlikely it works this way in my opinion. With something like Firebomb: Firepit you should be doing 24% over 3 sec and your attack speed will determine how fast the dot ticks.
It would make things more interesting if the dots worked in different ways, but I don't think Blizzard wants to make the game that complicated although it would be cool. I think they've just written the skill descriptions in a variety of ways that don't always mean what they say.
Looking at something like Bash: Pulverize it says "increases damage of your skills." I'm pretty sure it's the only ability in the game that specifies increases damage to your skills, rather than all damage. There are other abilities that say weird things too.
As I said... the only benefits I can think of for using dots are perhaps Life on Hit, Crit Procs and the ability to do damage passively.
Apparently tick intervals might not be determined by a person's attack speed, but are an innate part of abilities... both channeled and dots. In general it's been said that the interval is every 0.5sec. However, you see with an ability like Rapid Fire it's faster, and like Rain of Vengeance the intervals could be staggered. Basically this would mean that if you have two weapons with the same DPS but different attack speeds, they'll do the same damage but the faster attack speed will make your dots + channeled spells cost more mana. Of course you can regen mana at a faster rate too presumably. To find the mana cost of a channeled ability you multiply your attack speed by the cost.
The predetermined intervals makes sense for dots because if you have an 8sec dot with a 2.1 attack speed you'd only get 3 ticks per cast which wouldn't make any sense. Basically, your DPS will be multiplied by the tick interval, and that'll create your displayed damage.
None of this is all that meaningful in my opinion until you look at Life Per Hit. Is Life Per Hit going to be way better with Rapid Fire even if you have the same attack speed as someone using another ability? Probably not. Life Per Hit likely has some kind of internal cooldown or reduction in healing based on how often you use it or on your attack speed. I don't think anyone knows exactly how Life Per Hit works at this point, but it most certainly will not always give you X amount of healing per hit.
The same can be said for a lot of the proc abilities in the game like those based on crits and such. They'll likely have internal cooldowns and caps that prevent them from being abused.
I doubt that the display interval needs to be different from the damage interval.
Dots stack. So that might a thing to consider. I can see myself changing skills depending on what items I find. Good fast 1h wp + oh = more dot based build etc
Blue stated (regarding a forum post on poison) that dots will not stack unless they state otherwise
Dots stack. So that might a thing to consider. I can see myself changing skills depending on what items I find. Good fast 1h wp + oh = more dot based build etc
Blue stated (regarding a forum post on poison) that dots will not stack unless they state otherwise
This. Don't be confused guys, dots DON'T stack.
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Here's an idea about how DoTs work in D3, without me having Beta.
This is all speculation and could just be overanalyzing of Blizzard's poor skill descriptions.
First of all, DoTs are different from channeled spells. Firebats isn't a DoT exactly, or not what I would call a DoT. Channeled spells drain mana continuously, but DoTs you only cast once and last for a certain duration.
There are 3 types of descriptions you notice with dots.
1) Something happens per/every second.
2) Something happens over X amount of seconds.
3) Something happens for X amount of seconds.
For example, Locust Swarm looks like this: 320% damage as Poison OVER 8 seconds. The Fire Pit rune for Firebomb says 8% weapon damage PER SECOND as fire for 3sec. And the description for Grasp of the Dead says 20% weapon damage as physical FOR 8sec.
Now I'll start speculating...
What I'm thinking is that the abilities that say per/every second will tick once every second no matter what, and are unaffected by weapon speed. Meaning that it's much better to have a slow weapon because it'll tick every second no matter what. Mammoth Hydra is an example of this. But remember that the unruned Hydra is different because it doesn't use a dot but spits projectiles.
The abilities that say over X amount of seconds are affected by weapon speed, but do not really gain a massive bonus from it. For example, if you have a 100 damage / 1.5 speed weapon VS a 150 damage / 1.0 speed weapon, you'll do the same amount of damage with Locust Swarm. However, with a 1.5 speed weapon the ticks will just be faster. Meaning that if you have something that procs each time an enemy is hit, perhaps the faster attack speed would be better. But overall, the damage will be the same.
Then there's the for X amount of seconds description. At this point I think that these abilities will do the described weapon damage for each tick no matter what. This means that these abilities are very good when you have increased attack speed. In addition to Grasp of the Dead, you also have the Enchantress ability Erosion and Rain of Vengeance as abilities that say this. The point here is that if you have a 0.5 weapon speed you'll do 75% weapon damage every 0.5 seconds with Rain of Vengeance. And if you have a 2.0 weapon speed, you'll do 75% every 2.0 seconds. So these abilities with cooldowns are designed to be better for attack speed builds.
It should also be realized that when a skill says FOR X amount of seconds, it tends to be an ability that has a cooldown versus when it says OVER or PER SEC there tends to be no cooldown. Earthquake and Rain of Toads are exceptions to this since Earthquake says OVER but has a cooldown and Rain of Toads says FOR 2sec and doesn't.
So in conclusion... the skill descriptions are perhaps not as random as people think they are. And while most DoT abilities could be unaffected by attack speed vs weapon damage, a select few abilities could be dramatically affected.
It seems like these different descriptions all mean the same thing and all that changes is the rate at which your dots tick. Fast weapon = lots of small dot ticks. Slow weapon = few high damage dot ticks. So the damage will always be the same.
However, I'm thinking that Life on Hit could work for dots because it's clear that other characters are able to attack very fast using direct damage abilities. I would imagine that Life on Hit works for those, so it could possibly work for some dots.
It would make sense to some degree since Life on Kill and health globe healing is more beneficial to people who kill one monster at a time, which is not what dots are best for.
Dots from the same spell don't stack unless they're used by two different players. The only advantage to using a faster weapon with dots seems to be the faster ticks which could proc abilities or count towards Life on Hit. Also, it's worth noting that abilities that benefit from crit may work with dots, in which case having faster ticks would be more beneficial.
Here's to hoping that their game guide website has extremely in depth descriptions of every skill/rune combo : )
Yes, this seems to be an accurate and fair assumption. I agree.
So the duration is always the same here right? You're saying just the ticks get faster (and that means more of them then) but the damage PER TICK is lowered then? And if you get a slower weapon there will be less ticks but they hit harder. All this time the duration is constant.
I can agree with that. I guess there's no big advantges here except for things that proc off crits / hits like you said since there will be more ticks going on.
I could see it working like that. I could also see it as Blizzard just using different wording for no real reason and that ultimately it's the same as "over".
So as another way to put what you said though, if you have 1.5 APS and a skill that does 200% Weapon Damage FOR 5 seconds, then you'll do 300% Weapon Damage every second (1.5 x 200)? Seems plausible enough. But it also seems like Attack Speed can make these types of spells really powerful.
Are there any spells like this that have a really high Weapon Damage? If so, I would think it DOESN'T work that way because my example seems OP. If all the FOR spells are "lower" and "reasonable" damage, then I can see it working like this.
I also once thought that maybe FOR skills have their own built in APS. Like Grasp of the Dead hits at a certain speed all the time that is not tied to the player APS and is not tied to "per second". Just another theory that should be easily tested by someone less lazy than me (I'll probably try it out in the next few days if I can't find an answer).
Also, Rain of Toads says "over" 2 seconds and Earthquake probably has a cooldown based on it's ridiculous damage.
Makes sense if it works like that. Would make the choice of your weapons mean a little more. I hope this is something that gets 100% cleared up by Blizzard at some point (or really smart theorycrafters).
Even on things that say "per second"? I would assume those are locked into a certain speed still? If not that is really confusing.
Well, as I said earlier in this post, it wouldn't surprise me if "over" and "for" turned out to be the same (I wrote all of that after just reading your OP and didn't read any responses).
I'm pretty sure that all dots work the same way and don't really benefit from attack speed in any special way. The only thing is that if you can gain an advantage from things that proc on critical strikes, etc.
Other than that, it's just slow strong ticks vs fast weak ticks. Yeah, even things that say per second should tick faster if your attack speed is above 1. You could maybe try to make the case that those abilities will simply use your DPS, meaning that your damage would be higher than normal but your attack speed reduced to the 1.0 on the dot.
But it's unlikely it works this way in my opinion. With something like Firebomb: Firepit you should be doing 24% over 3 sec and your attack speed will determine how fast the dot ticks.
It would make things more interesting if the dots worked in different ways, but I don't think Blizzard wants to make the game that complicated although it would be cool. I think they've just written the skill descriptions in a variety of ways that don't always mean what they say.
Looking at something like Bash: Pulverize it says "increases damage of your skills." I'm pretty sure it's the only ability in the game that specifies increases damage to your skills, rather than all damage. There are other abilities that say weird things too.
As I said... the only benefits I can think of for using dots are perhaps Life on Hit, Crit Procs and the ability to do damage passively.
The predetermined intervals makes sense for dots because if you have an 8sec dot with a 2.1 attack speed you'd only get 3 ticks per cast which wouldn't make any sense. Basically, your DPS will be multiplied by the tick interval, and that'll create your displayed damage.
None of this is all that meaningful in my opinion until you look at Life Per Hit. Is Life Per Hit going to be way better with Rapid Fire even if you have the same attack speed as someone using another ability? Probably not. Life Per Hit likely has some kind of internal cooldown or reduction in healing based on how often you use it or on your attack speed. I don't think anyone knows exactly how Life Per Hit works at this point, but it most certainly will not always give you X amount of healing per hit.
The same can be said for a lot of the proc abilities in the game like those based on crits and such. They'll likely have internal cooldowns and caps that prevent them from being abused.
I doubt that the display interval needs to be different from the damage interval.
Blue stated (regarding a forum post on poison) that dots will not stack unless they state otherwise
This. Don't be confused guys, dots DON'T stack.