I presume it is because Rapid Fire is also taken, between that and Elemental Arrow/Multishot the H spending will be quite high, this would probably limit the usage of RoV somewhat. Personally I think RoV would still be a reasonable choice, particularly with - as you say - a golden rune - for the "at a targeted location" mainly, it implies you can use it at longer range; though I cannot confirm this.
In the smokescreen build, the panic button effect is lessened slightly since you're probably going to be using it as often as possible for the H generation, the short time scale in which this happens coupled with Prep probably covers it though. Another potential issue with the smokescreen (SS) build is that Rapid Fire really eats up Hatred; given that SS only provides 60H for 15D and RF uses 20H +10Hps means that you could potentiall be chugging D like there's no tommorrow!
Howdy Ive been following both your DH and Monk threads for awhile now. Just wanted to say how intriguing a no hatred gen build seems to me.
I wanted to know why the change from RoV to FoK? I know that FoK gives you another option to apply slows (prep veng build), but i dont intend on letting mobs get that close to me, 18 yards seems kind of close dont you think especially if you use the Prep + Vengeance build in Inferno? Would RoV with Golden rune be a better option to keep mobs away or is the high hatred cost just not reliable as an oh shit kind of ability?
At least with your smokescreen build, loving this build, you have 2 slows to keep mobs away plus smokescreen as a panic button.
Glad to hear I have a fan XD
I am a little confused by what you said. I assume you read the revised post correct? Going to quote it just to make sure you don't miss anything
Quote from "azuresky808" »
Rain of Vengeance: A very powerful one shot AOE. I only state this here because it is a good way to get rid of extra hatred generated from Multi Shot. Since Multi Shot gets an absurd amount of discipline generated this move and FoK are nice to burn it off with. The only reason why I value this over FoK is because this one has a very long range to it and can burn off the hatred much faster than any other move.
I was actually saying RoV is better in most cases than FoK. The point of FoK is in a build with little mobility the extra added in slow is very very powerful. In a build lacking Smoke Screen it is probably better to chose FoK over RoV because the lack of the stealth. I perfer RoV to FoK myself but remember the cost is very high to use. The main point was to use it in a close up engagement when you already fired Multi Shot to get back some discipline/hatred. FoK on the other hand can be used in lieu of Multi Shot and/or RoV because of its lower cost and slow component.
Most of this is subjective to the player playing as well. With the golden rune RoV can be a great tool to keep enemies at arms length for someone who likes to keep distance but you have to make sure you want to commit that hatred to RoV instead of something else.
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I presume it is because Rapid Fire is also taken, between that and Elemental Arrow/Multishot the H spending will be quite high, this would probably limit the usage of RoV somewhat. Personally I think RoV would still be a reasonable choice, particularly with - as you say - a golden rune - for the "at a targeted location" mainly, it implies you can use it at longer range; though I cannot confirm this.
In the smokescreen build, the panic button effect is lessened slightly since you're probably going to be using it as often as possible for the H generation, the short time scale in which this happens coupled with Prep probably covers it though!
You mentioned the rune on RoV. Someone was able to get us a video a month back about with the animation. It seems to be a directed cone type of attack. In comparison FoK with crimson has about the same reach. Both moves look like useful tools for keeping enemies at arms length, but remember with the way the builds are on the front page they are stated to be not part of the normal rotation but should be used in particular situations that best fit.
If you choose your weapon attack speed properly you can certainly add RoV into a regular (use on cool down) rotation but you will have to probably take the Companion + golden to compensate for this case but it is possible. The Elemental Arrow/Rapid Fire/Multi will not be as hatred hungry as you make it out with proper passives and skills like Prep/Screen/Companion.
Thanks for the comment!
PS I find this amusing that as soon as they announce 450 beta keys the forums explode with activity XD
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I presume it is because Rapid Fire is also taken, between that and Elemental Arrow/Multishot the H spending will be quite high, this would probably limit the usage of RoV somewhat. Personally I think RoV would still be a reasonable choice, particularly with - as you say - a golden rune - for the "at a targeted location" mainly, it implies you can use it at longer range; though I cannot confirm this.
In the smokescreen build, the panic button effect is lessened slightly since you're probably going to be using it as often as possible for the H generation, the short time scale in which this happens coupled with Prep probably covers it though. Another potential issue with the smokescreen (SS) build is that Rapid Fire really eats up Hatred; given that SS only provides 60H for 15D and RF uses 20H +10Hps means that you could potentiall be chugging D like there's no tommorrow!
I like the updated original post btw!
Yeh i kinda figured it was cos of the high cost =(, Im just not very comfortable with FoK being a very close range skill coupled with latency issues might become a pain in inferno. Maybe i shouldnt worry too much i guess since i wont be playing hardcore anyway...
I just wish there was a way to regulate hatred as to accommodate RoV... why? Cos i love the thought of RoV
With regards with smokescreen being used as a hatred generator as opposed to a panic button i guess these builds really just require that we play smart.
I am a little confused by what you said. I assume you read the revised post correct? Going to quote it just to make sure you don't miss anything
Quote from "azuresky808" »
Rain of Vengeance: A very powerful one shot AOE. I only state this here because it is a good way to get rid of extra hatred generated from Multi Shot. Since Multi Shot gets an absurd amount of discipline generated this move and FoK are nice to burn it off with. The only reason why I value this over FoK is because this one has a very long range to it and can burn off the hatred much faster than any other move.
I was actually saying RoV is better in most cases than FoK. The point of FoK is in a build with little mobility the extra added in slow is very very powerful. In a build lacking Smoke Screen it is probably better to chose FoK over RoV because the lack of the stealth. I perfer RoV to FoK myself but remember the cost is very high to use. The main point was to use it in a close up engagement when you already fired Multi Shot to get back some discipline/hatred. FoK on the other hand can be used in lieu of Multi Shot and/or RoV because of its lower cost and slow component.
Most of this is subjective to the player playing as well. With the golden rune RoV can be a great tool to keep enemies at arms length for someone who likes to keep distance but you have to make sure you want to commit that hatred to RoV instead of something else.
Yeh i read that you did prefer RoV over FoK but i guess the amount of hatred being burned by Rapid Fire and needing to reserve some hatred for multishot just in case a situation suddenly pops up requiring that we needed to pop a Prep doesnt really leave room for another hatred hog like RoV.
I guess maybe with gear that increases resource generation we might be able to comfortably incorporate RoV.
Im definately not a fan of any of the hatred gen skills so Ill be following this thread closely =)
You mentioned the rune on RoV. Someone was able to get us a video a month back about with the animation. It seems to be a directed cone type of attack. In comparison FoK with crimson has about the same reach. Both moves look like useful tools for keeping enemies at arms length, but remember with the way the builds are on the front page they are stated to be not part of the normal rotation but should be used in particular situations that best fit.
If you choose your weapon attack speed properly you can certainly add RoV into a regular (use on cool down) rotation but you will have to probably take the Companion + golden to compensate for this case but it is possible. The Elemental Arrow/Rapid Fire/Multi will not be as hatred hungry as you make it out with proper passives and skills like Prep/Screen/Companion.
Thanks for the comment!
PS I find this amusing that as soon as they announce 450 beta keys the forums explode with activity XD
I always thought RoV+Golden, like some other runes, seemed like it lands where the mouse pointer is but after what you said it does kindof look like it comes out as a frontal cone... If this is the case then FoK may just be better since it is 360 and is half the cost.
Hahaha you noticed that huh? Yeh ive always wanted to reply to your posts but felt too shy? I guess the beta key giveaway gave me incentive ;P
You mentioned the rune on RoV. Someone was able to get us a video a month back about with the animation. It seems to be a directed cone type of attack. In comparison FoK with crimson has about the same reach. Both moves look like useful tools for keeping enemies at arms length, but remember with the way the builds are on the front page they are stated to be not part of the normal rotation but should be used in particular situations that best fit.
If you choose your weapon attack speed properly you can certainly add RoV into a regular (use on cool down) rotation but you will have to probably take the Companion + golden to compensate for this case but it is possible. The Elemental Arrow/Rapid Fire/Multi will not be as hatred hungry as you make it out with proper passives and skills like Prep/Screen/Companion.
Thanks for the comment!
PS I find this amusing that as soon as they announce 450 beta keys the forums explode with activity XD
I always thought RoV+Golden, like some other runes, seemed like it lands where the mouse pointer is but after what you said it does kindof look like it comes out as a frontal cone... If this is the case then FoK may just be better since it is 360 and is half the cost.
Hahaha you noticed that huh? Yeh ive always wanted to reply to your posts but felt too shy? I guess the beta key giveaway gave me incentive ;P
Like many other my friend. At least you are one of the coherent ones instead of these guys who show up and fail to really read and follow the thread. Thanks for lurking XD
I did say I believe in one of my last two posts that with a careful build RoV can be used as an on cooldown basis. Basically speaking something that would involve Preperation + Vengeance(passive) + Companion with golden rune. That triple combo gives you enough gen to use RoV even taking into consideration having a relativity decent attack speed 1.3-1.4. You can work it into your normal rotation but why I stress its usage for utility purposes is because most new people do not realize what the true potential of an attack is. Pointing out to them that there is a stun on a rune that they may have missed just opens more doors for more builds.
The main reason for the thread is to promote the idea of this system and couple that with some good advice and guidance on how to go about building around this theme not to give cookie cutter builds.
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Still working my way trough the thread, and it is amazing Really love the out of the box thinking.
But I just found something that might become a huge problem with all the builds.
As they rely on a certain max attack speed and since you build you whole build/items around having 1.1 attack speed with dual wield, skill buffs and other item, what about buffs from other players.
Some skills like the WD Big Bad Vodoo increase attack speed by 15%, which potentially could bring you under the 1.1 mark and ruin your build. Since coop is a major part of the game, what solution do you see for this? (one would be to get friends to compliment your build but what about random games).
The slowest attack speed for a DH is a 2h xbow. If you look through the math section the numbers point to you not only being able to sustain a constant assault with Elemental Arrow/Rapid Fire but you can even have about 30% attack speed bonus for your character. You have a gray area of attack speed where going over something like 1.4 or 1.5 (depending on the method of getting hatred from the options) will make you run dry but having less and you will have extra.
Basically the build itself makes you think twice about gear choices and who you are partying with. What I really like about this build is that you can focus on getting high crit gear or +dmg instead of attack speed. This build might suffer a little bit from the idea of randomized gear stats but other builds that rely on high crit or other stats like that have the same problem.
If I remember correctly they were talking about adding an item in that takes a piece of gear and re-rolls the bonus stats on it. In essence you can just keep doing this until you get a golden amount, or if you are a little lazy you can just get less than the cap and just have a little extra hatred to mess around with.
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Still working my way trough the thread, and it is amazing Really love the out of the box thinking.
But I just found something that might become a huge problem with all the builds.
As they rely on a certain max attack speed and since you build you whole build/items around having 1.1 attack speed with dual wield, skill buffs and other item, what about buffs from other players.
Some skills like the WD Big Bad Vodoo increase attack speed by 15%, which potentially could bring you under the 1.1 mark and ruin your build. Since coop is a major part of the game, what solution do you see for this? (one would be to get friends to compliment your build but what about random games).
The slowest attack speed for a DH is a 2h xbow. If you look through the math section the numbers point to you not only being able to sustain a constant assault with Elemental Arrow/Rapid Fire but you can even have about 30% attack speed bonus for your character. You have a gray area of attack speed where going over something like 1.4 or 1.5 (depending on the method of getting hatred from the options) will make you run dry but having less and you will have extra.
Basically the build itself makes you think twice about gear choices and who you are partying with. What I really like about this build is that you can focus on getting high crit gear or +dmg instead of attack speed. This build might suffer a little bit from the idea of randomized gear stats but other builds that rely on high crit or other stats like that have the same problem.
If I remember correctly they were talking about adding an item in that takes a piece of gear and re-rolls the bonus stats on it. In essence you can just keep doing this until you get a golden amount, or if you are a little lazy you can just get less than the cap and just have a little extra hatred to mess around with.
So having the perfect attack speed will be something you watch, a good balance between solid attack speed and attack speed with buffs - that might be fun I really like the idea of maxing the dmg and crit instead of the attack speed, since that gives a really hard hitting deamon hunter. There is however another problem with this.
It is the wasted dmg concept. If you do 100 dmg pr hit and a hit takes 2 seconds, but the mob only has 50 hp you would actually be better off with 50 dmg pr hit and an attack every second. Technically the dps is the same, but the 50 wasted dmg will make the slow one inferior. (aka. 0,5 kill/sec vs 1 kill/sec).
Would there be any way to prevent this with this build?
And to the reroll of items, I think was removed as far as I remember it is now somehow build into the crafting, where you can remake an item to get the perfect modifiers on it. Correct me if I am wrong and this is implemented somewhere else too.
I tried to find a link but I think it was said at blizzcon or something but don't remember the exact one and don't have time to watch them all again.
I think that even if you were to jack up the damage you still will not run into that exact situation when talking about higher difficulties. I would say the main issue would be when playing with others how often will you miss a shot when someone kills something you fire at. Still attacking at 1.1+ times per second is not really that bad. I did spend some time with the 2h xbow on purpose to really see how slow it was and to be honest it is not all that bad.
I found the exact post. It was a change back in Patch 10, before I got access to the beta so I was not following closely back then, and it was the removal of Scrolls of Reforging. However they did state that they wanted to implement Scrolls of Reforging in a more meaningful manner. Probably something to do with the crafting system. They did say they wanted it in but the way it was done before was something they did not like.
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Its not like in WoW where attack speeds are kinda just randomly thrown in. Each weapon has a specific attack speed attached to it. This is why there are some passives like the monk, barb or the DH that work solely with weapon type.
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Soon as I saw the Punishment option for Prep I had to start thinking about the possibilities. Then I found your post here and it gives some great ideas on some various combos to use. This is a build I'm definetly gonna try because I'm falling in love with Rapid Fire as a single target damage dealer and there's so much synergy that you can tweak with your gear that the options are left wide open instead of it being a "this is how you MUST spec it" build. Can't wait to give this a try with my DH (along with an engineer build).
Its not like in WoW where attack speeds are kinda just randomly thrown in. Each weapon has a specific attack speed attached to it. This is why there are some passives like the monk, barb or the DH that work solely with weapon type.
That makes i all easier.
I have been thinking about building a melee DH for awhile, and finalized a build today. But what about melee weapons and attack speed, for some reason I can't seem to find it anywhere?
The build relies on automatic hatred generation and improved discipline generation. It has a lot of mobility skills to close gaps and some melee skills. As far as I can see there is no problem with it except that weapon speed might be different but "Marked for Death" might make up for that.
Edit: fixed the build - somehow smokescreen had made its way there instead of preperation.
I don't like the idea of having a melee range DH. I feel you sacrifice too much to try and get an interesting way to play. On top of that DH has the worst passives for defense ever. Wizard has armors/diamond skin/mirror image/frost nova. Monk has Mantras/BoH/Serenity/amazing passives. Barb as stuff >.>. WD has health returns/passives. DH? We got Smoke Screen. Some leeching attacks with Cluster and Ele Arrow (both of which are horrid returns by the way) and a halfway decent passive that only works when we don't take damage.
I'm talking about tanking here. Not things like Vault and slows. If you want to be in melee you have to devote at least some passives and skills to tanking damage since you will be too close too often. The big issue with the DH is they have little to none tanking passives/skills. Once they get in melee they melt compared to any other ranged caster. This is why their slows and snares are so strong and Vault so spammable.
That being said your melee DH looks to be the most solid one I have seen yet. I highly stress that you play this build with a Monk/Barb who is build to tank. I only say this because you can not take the damage like they can.
Side note we don't exactly know how Smoke Screen works. If an enemy is inside it can it see you? If you fire while in it can enemies see you? Does moving out of the smoke also drop the stealth?
Soon as I saw the Punishment option for Prep I had to start thinking about the possibilities. Then I found your post here and it gives some great ideas on some various combos to use. This is a build I'm definetly gonna try because I'm falling in love with Rapid Fire as a single target damage dealer and there's so much synergy that you can tweak with your gear that the options are left wide open instead of it being a "this is how you MUST spec it" build. Can't wait to give this a try with my DH (along with an engineer build).
Thanks!
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Vengeance broken but DH gets buffs across many skills. Regardless I have to redo my math on top of getting some time with the new patch. Update to the changed numbers will come within the next day or so. Hold tight until then.
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Patch could have been a lot worse for us; though the "nerf" to vengeance is disappointing, now it's more important to know how reliable health globes are. That being said, this highlights another possible interesting build style, a no hatred generator (I'm just gonna go ahead and say nHG from now on), that relies primarily on Prep and Health Globes via using *some* Health Globe gear (increased range or whatever). This again though hinges on how frequent globes are, which I have no idea on - I'll look into it later.
I'm going to re-evaluate my build again in the next few days and check how things work out still. Since Rune ranks have been removed now and homogenised at what was rank4/5 this needs to be considered when evaluating D consumption. Here's hoping nHG builds remain strongly viable
Patch could have been a lot worse for us; though the "nerf" to vengeance is disappointing, now it's more important to know how reliable health globes are. That being said, this highlights another possible interesting build style, a no hatred generator (I'm just gonna go ahead and say nHG from now on), that relies primarily on Prep and Health Globes via using *some* Health Globe gear (increased range or whatever). This again though hinges on how frequent globes are, which I have no idea on - I'll look into it later.
I'm going to re-evaluate my build again in the next few days and check how things work out still. Since Rune ranks have been removed now and homogenised at what was rank4/5 this needs to be considered when evaluating D consumption. Here's hoping nHG builds remain strongly viable
First off it is not bad of a nerf. 25 Hatred is not a huge loss. However this means globes will be much more valuable, and might I add hard to obtain since we are a ranged class. The balancing factor of increasing the damage of most of the other skills we have is quite powerful.
As you state they rune system is based around the rank 4/5 runes that we saw on the calculator. Didn't he state that they still scaled to your level? This is the main reason for holding me back from posting is I am waiting for the new calculator to be posted. I want to go over all the information from the patch at least one more time with the calc in front of me just to make sure I don't mess up the math.
The big question is how badly did it effect Prep, Smoke Screen, Companion and Marked for Death. I know many aspects with the Monk rune system are stealth changed and I have no clue how the DH was effected. Things like the DH's Seeking Arrow + old indigo was 6 targets and the new one when you unlock it starts at only 3. Until that calculator is posted, or we get much more definitive info on the changes ie a full rune listing I can not accurately update :/
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Indigo Vault got shat on at the very least....vault has no cost but instead a 15 seconds cooldown...derp. I really do hope that things scale with level otherwise some things are a lot less interesting than they were before
Don't hold me to this since I cba leveling another dh to 11 atm but I think there is at least some degree of scaling since the Chain Lightning rune for Entangling Shot (used to be obsidian) says it does 31% extra damage at level 13 and I think it said 25% earlier when I was a lower level
The runes do scale from what the blue post said. I can also confirm that the values did go up as I leveled myself. Like I said in my previous post we need to find out how good the runes are for Prep, Smoke Screen, Marked and Companion. There are two problems with these new changes. Supposedly we can only have 5 runes equipped at any given point and time, and if there are changes to the runes how much did they change for those skills. They very well may have been stealth changed. The big problem is we won't know the extent of how much they are changed until there is a calculator up.
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Oh yes I know it's not a bad nerf, hence the quotation marks in my post. Yes I do recall seeing something about scaling with level - I hope a calculator is posted soon so we can start nomming some numbers. I wonder what the logic for reducing the number of runes to 5 was? I thought it was all about diversifying and customising. Though I can see the sixth rune and an additional skill slot unlocking in an expansion or something at level 70 (ohai WoW). Personally it doesn't really affect my build too much, I'd probably just drop the vault rune.
What would be an interesting trade off would be if they changed the Bat companion to collect Health Globes...
I probably won't be levelling as nHG anyway, might just go standard trapper for NM/Hell at least.
Well because they almost all require Preparation or Smoke Screen with a rune. That already requires somewhere in the 30+ range in terms of levels. ie you get Prep at 24(i think) but the rune wont unlock until somewhere in the 40-50 range I bet.
Also don't quote me on that 5 rune thing. I may have read that wrong.
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Yeah you're probably right. Does anyone know what the levelling curve is like roughly? Say Normal is 1-30, NM is 30-55, Hell is 55+, Inf is 60 only sort of thing? Front page says to expect the new calculator "next week"... Guess I'll just twiddle my thumbs until then!
I believe those numbers are accurate. I know Inferno is going to be a 60 only mode. The rest of them sound about right but I think Hell is 50-60. I really hope the leveling is smooth. IE finishing hell and you are almost guaranteed level 60 and finishing Nightmare is around 50 so u can get into hell.
Just speculation though so ya idk
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Just a quick suggestion; when you redo the math, or b4 if you feel like it, can you make clearer some of the skill usage with regards to hatred/disc gen please? Reading multishot and RoV I got kinda confused. i guess you mean generating disc, then using that with prep for hatred, but you swing back and forth saying hatred then disc then hatred etc. Otherwise I'm loving the thread and can't wait to see the updated version for patch 13. Doubt I will go full no hatred gen, but I'm liking a low hatred gen build, and obviously all your info massively helps with that.
Yes I fully intend to make some of these changes. The main reason why I did not put more exact numbers for skills is that we were only a day or two from patch 13 and doing all that math would have been fruitless if some major change were to happen.
Also about the multi/RoV. If you alabaster rune Multi you will generate disc which in turn generates hatred. What I was trying to get at was because of the 15 cost per shot of Multi you made up for it by generating disc. The thing is you generate so much disc so fast (4 shots can get you enough for a Prep if you have 6 enemies hit with the current rune levels) that you will have trouble spending all the hatred. There is a catch though. You are in close. RoV and FoK are only useful in close and have high costs. This is why I say to take one of them. High damage and high cost but it is useful to blow off your extra hatred generated if this situation were to happen.
Very interesting aside about these builds in general. I did some poking around and found this http://diablonut.incgamers.com/affix/regeneration-hatred. The info looks solid because I can confirm the first 3 ranks personally from in game items. What is most surprising is that the affix at level 60 is around 3 generated per second. Keep in mind you have two weapons or quiver so you have about 6 passive hatred generation just from the weapon affix. I almost did a double take when I saw this. I think I will have to factor this passive regen into the stats as well only because of how high it is.
Those numbers basically show that you can do a genless build with only Smoke Screen as a generator and remain stable. I will do the math when the calc is up but it also might mean we can use only the Companion/Marked as well. It would be really interesting to see if we don't need Prep or a doubled up option on every build to be able to sustain.
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In the smokescreen build, the panic button effect is lessened slightly since you're probably going to be using it as often as possible for the H generation, the short time scale in which this happens coupled with Prep probably covers it though. Another potential issue with the smokescreen (SS) build is that Rapid Fire really eats up Hatred; given that SS only provides 60H for 15D and RF uses 20H +10Hps means that you could potentiall be chugging D like there's no tommorrow!
I like the updated original post btw!
Glad to hear I have a fan XD
I am a little confused by what you said. I assume you read the revised post correct? Going to quote it just to make sure you don't miss anything
I was actually saying RoV is better in most cases than FoK. The point of FoK is in a build with little mobility the extra added in slow is very very powerful. In a build lacking Smoke Screen it is probably better to chose FoK over RoV because the lack of the stealth. I perfer RoV to FoK myself but remember the cost is very high to use. The main point was to use it in a close up engagement when you already fired Multi Shot to get back some discipline/hatred. FoK on the other hand can be used in lieu of Multi Shot and/or RoV because of its lower cost and slow component.
Most of this is subjective to the player playing as well. With the golden rune RoV can be a great tool to keep enemies at arms length for someone who likes to keep distance but you have to make sure you want to commit that hatred to RoV instead of something else.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oEYtDJGRHc
You mentioned the rune on RoV. Someone was able to get us a video a month back about with the animation. It seems to be a directed cone type of attack. In comparison FoK with crimson has about the same reach. Both moves look like useful tools for keeping enemies at arms length, but remember with the way the builds are on the front page they are stated to be not part of the normal rotation but should be used in particular situations that best fit.
If you choose your weapon attack speed properly you can certainly add RoV into a regular (use on cool down) rotation but you will have to probably take the Companion + golden to compensate for this case but it is possible. The Elemental Arrow/Rapid Fire/Multi will not be as hatred hungry as you make it out with proper passives and skills like Prep/Screen/Companion.
Thanks for the comment!
PS I find this amusing that as soon as they announce 450 beta keys the forums explode with activity XD
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Sorry had to fix that table.
Yeh i kinda figured it was cos of the high cost =(, Im just not very comfortable with FoK being a very close range skill coupled with latency issues might become a pain in inferno. Maybe i shouldnt worry too much i guess since i wont be playing hardcore anyway...
I just wish there was a way to regulate hatred as to accommodate RoV... why? Cos i love the thought of RoV
With regards with smokescreen being used as a hatred generator as opposed to a panic button i guess these builds really just require that we play smart.
Yeh i read that you did prefer RoV over FoK but i guess the amount of hatred being burned by Rapid Fire and needing to reserve some hatred for multishot just in case a situation suddenly pops up requiring that we needed to pop a Prep doesnt really leave room for another hatred hog like RoV.
I guess maybe with gear that increases resource generation we might be able to comfortably incorporate RoV.
Im definately not a fan of any of the hatred gen skills so Ill be following this thread closely =)
I always thought RoV+Golden, like some other runes, seemed like it lands where the mouse pointer is but after what you said it does kindof look like it comes out as a frontal cone... If this is the case then FoK may just be better since it is 360 and is half the cost.
Hahaha you noticed that huh? Yeh ive always wanted to reply to your posts but felt too shy? I guess the beta key giveaway gave me incentive ;P
Like many other my friend. At least you are one of the coherent ones instead of these guys who show up and fail to really read and follow the thread. Thanks for lurking XD
I did say I believe in one of my last two posts that with a careful build RoV can be used as an on cooldown basis. Basically speaking something that would involve Preperation + Vengeance(passive) + Companion with golden rune. That triple combo gives you enough gen to use RoV even taking into consideration having a relativity decent attack speed 1.3-1.4. You can work it into your normal rotation but why I stress its usage for utility purposes is because most new people do not realize what the true potential of an attack is. Pointing out to them that there is a stun on a rune that they may have missed just opens more doors for more builds.
The main reason for the thread is to promote the idea of this system and couple that with some good advice and guidance on how to go about building around this theme not to give cookie cutter builds.
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Sorry had to fix that table.
The slowest attack speed for a DH is a 2h xbow. If you look through the math section the numbers point to you not only being able to sustain a constant assault with Elemental Arrow/Rapid Fire but you can even have about 30% attack speed bonus for your character. You have a gray area of attack speed where going over something like 1.4 or 1.5 (depending on the method of getting hatred from the options) will make you run dry but having less and you will have extra.
Basically the build itself makes you think twice about gear choices and who you are partying with. What I really like about this build is that you can focus on getting high crit gear or +dmg instead of attack speed. This build might suffer a little bit from the idea of randomized gear stats but other builds that rely on high crit or other stats like that have the same problem.
If I remember correctly they were talking about adding an item in that takes a piece of gear and re-rolls the bonus stats on it. In essence you can just keep doing this until you get a golden amount, or if you are a little lazy you can just get less than the cap and just have a little extra hatred to mess around with.
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I think that even if you were to jack up the damage you still will not run into that exact situation when talking about higher difficulties. I would say the main issue would be when playing with others how often will you miss a shot when someone kills something you fire at. Still attacking at 1.1+ times per second is not really that bad. I did spend some time with the 2h xbow on purpose to really see how slow it was and to be honest it is not all that bad.
I found the exact post. It was a change back in Patch 10, before I got access to the beta so I was not following closely back then, and it was the removal of Scrolls of Reforging. However they did state that they wanted to implement Scrolls of Reforging in a more meaningful manner. Probably something to do with the crafting system. They did say they wanted it in but the way it was done before was something they did not like.
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2h xbow 1.1 aps
bow 1.4 aps
1h xbow 1.6 aps
2 1h xbow 1.86 aps (15% speed buff from duel wield)
Its not like in WoW where attack speeds are kinda just randomly thrown in. Each weapon has a specific attack speed attached to it. This is why there are some passives like the monk, barb or the DH that work solely with weapon type.
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I'm talking about tanking here. Not things like Vault and slows. If you want to be in melee you have to devote at least some passives and skills to tanking damage since you will be too close too often. The big issue with the DH is they have little to none tanking passives/skills. Once they get in melee they melt compared to any other ranged caster. This is why their slows and snares are so strong and Vault so spammable.
That being said your melee DH looks to be the most solid one I have seen yet. I highly stress that you play this build with a Monk/Barb who is build to tank. I only say this because you can not take the damage like they can.
Side note we don't exactly know how Smoke Screen works. If an enemy is inside it can it see you? If you fire while in it can enemies see you? Does moving out of the smoke also drop the stealth?
Thanks!
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I'm going to re-evaluate my build again in the next few days and check how things work out still. Since Rune ranks have been removed now and homogenised at what was rank4/5 this needs to be considered when evaluating D consumption. Here's hoping nHG builds remain strongly viable
First off it is not bad of a nerf. 25 Hatred is not a huge loss. However this means globes will be much more valuable, and might I add hard to obtain since we are a ranged class. The balancing factor of increasing the damage of most of the other skills we have is quite powerful.
As you state they rune system is based around the rank 4/5 runes that we saw on the calculator. Didn't he state that they still scaled to your level? This is the main reason for holding me back from posting is I am waiting for the new calculator to be posted. I want to go over all the information from the patch at least one more time with the calc in front of me just to make sure I don't mess up the math.
The big question is how badly did it effect Prep, Smoke Screen, Companion and Marked for Death. I know many aspects with the Monk rune system are stealth changed and I have no clue how the DH was effected. Things like the DH's Seeking Arrow + old indigo was 6 targets and the new one when you unlock it starts at only 3. Until that calculator is posted, or we get much more definitive info on the changes ie a full rune listing I can not accurately update :/
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The runes do scale from what the blue post said. I can also confirm that the values did go up as I leveled myself. Like I said in my previous post we need to find out how good the runes are for Prep, Smoke Screen, Marked and Companion. There are two problems with these new changes. Supposedly we can only have 5 runes equipped at any given point and time, and if there are changes to the runes how much did they change for those skills. They very well may have been stealth changed. The big problem is we won't know the extent of how much they are changed until there is a calculator up.
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What would be an interesting trade off would be if they changed the Bat companion to collect Health Globes...
I probably won't be levelling as nHG anyway, might just go standard trapper for NM/Hell at least.
Also don't quote me on that 5 rune thing. I may have read that wrong.
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Just speculation though so ya idk
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Yes I fully intend to make some of these changes. The main reason why I did not put more exact numbers for skills is that we were only a day or two from patch 13 and doing all that math would have been fruitless if some major change were to happen.
Also about the multi/RoV. If you alabaster rune Multi you will generate disc which in turn generates hatred. What I was trying to get at was because of the 15 cost per shot of Multi you made up for it by generating disc. The thing is you generate so much disc so fast (4 shots can get you enough for a Prep if you have 6 enemies hit with the current rune levels) that you will have trouble spending all the hatred. There is a catch though. You are in close. RoV and FoK are only useful in close and have high costs. This is why I say to take one of them. High damage and high cost but it is useful to blow off your extra hatred generated if this situation were to happen.
Very interesting aside about these builds in general. I did some poking around and found this http://diablonut.incgamers.com/affix/regeneration-hatred. The info looks solid because I can confirm the first 3 ranks personally from in game items. What is most surprising is that the affix at level 60 is around 3 generated per second. Keep in mind you have two weapons or quiver so you have about 6 passive hatred generation just from the weapon affix. I almost did a double take when I saw this. I think I will have to factor this passive regen into the stats as well only because of how high it is.
Those numbers basically show that you can do a genless build with only Smoke Screen as a generator and remain stable. I will do the math when the calc is up but it also might mean we can use only the Companion/Marked as well. It would be really interesting to see if we don't need Prep or a doubled up option on every build to be able to sustain.
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