UPDATE2: Apparently, paragon starts scaling exponentially again - after level 2250. Updated chart at the bottom of this post. However, paragon 750 to 2250 are still unchanged and relatively easy to get, and provide a ridiculous benefit; and even beyond it's not super crazy scaling, though much more difficult than on PTR and pre-2.3. Despite this small bandaid fix to insanely high paragon levels, all the issues (and potential solutions) of this thread are still valid.
UPDATE: Some of the issues in this thread have been addressed as paragon continues to scale linearly after 2000. Nevertheless, paragon is still an issue and, depending on how long season 4 will last, will be an even larger issue as it was in season 3 due to the fact that XP gain will even be more inflated. The core issues are still relevant, and the solutions proposed should still work. Note that CAPPING paragon is not really a solution - better would be to either 1) let it continue to scale exponentially after 750 (best solution), or 2) remove XP gear (it's the same as MF gear in D3V), or 3) lower the benefits paragon gives after level 800 (probably the best overall and feasible solution as it also works retroactively on non-season).
Yay, catchy title! Sorry for the buzzfeed style, but at least I got your attention now. I previously made a thread about my concerns regarding paragon. There was also a nice thread on Reddit by Xabster highlighting an issue with paragon scaling. However, since yesterday we have new data as Kalmah raced to paragon 10000 on PTR using the GR glitch (live on Empyrian's stream). As it turned out, that changed the game once again - because the paragon XP charts we used so far (including Xabster in his post) were off. After reaching paragon 2000, every level requires exactly the same amount of XP - approx. 170 billion. Yep - paragon level 2000 to 2001 takes exactly as much XP as 9999 to 10000.
Edit: If you don't like to read text but prefer videos, watch Empyrian's great summary of the paragon issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llPluMsxE7M
Now, in all those paragon threads many people said "I don't care". If that's the case, and you don't like numbers or charts then just stop reading and don't bother replying, there will be nothing in here for you. Otherwise, hear me out and read on.
This is a chart displaying the race from paragon 1 to 750, how much XP you need for the next level. This is what most people are probably experiencing, or have experienced - in all Diablo games ever: as you acquire more power, acquiring *even more* power becomes more difficult. In one word, power creep is exponential. As it has always been, and as it should be. Now... after 750 this is not the case anymore. This is what it looks like once you reach paragon 750:
The amount of XP needed to reach the next level increases only linearly - by exactly 122.4 million per level. On this level you acquire several billions of XP per hour though - in 2.3 there might be scenarios of 200-250 billion per hour in a fast group - which makes this a minuscule increase. It's not like in D2 where the next level *feels* like it's going to take longer; instead of an hour it will only take an hour and a few seconds more (not even a few minutes), so not noticeable at all. That's the reason why paragon leveling at this point has become so rewarding: after 750 you make steady progress without a noticeable slowing down effect. However, after paragon 800 every level gives you 5 more main stat - which is a noticeable increase in power and something that you can't get easily through gear upgrades on that level. That's why people are hunting paragon like crazy. And the first few have reached 2000 already. That number will increase in season 4 when paragon farming becomes even easier (shared XP, power creep will let us farm 10-15 level higher). In non-season, where half the playerbase (including me) has found its home, it's going to be even worse: from the start we will have several 2000+ paragon players, and many many more just after a few weeks. Now, why is paragon 2000 such an interesting number? The answer can be found in this chart:
After level 2000, the paragon needed does not increase - as aforementioned. It will always be 170 billion. Now, why is this an issue? Simply because you will *increase your power* - more paragon, maybe occasionally even more gear, more DPS/toughness which allows for even more XP, higher GR clears which result in higher gem ranks. Paragon leveling will be faster and faster - but the paragon XP required will be the same. When you're paragon 2000, you need probably a bit more than one hour to get one level. When you're paragon 3000, you will have 5000 more main stat (!!!), which means 5000% more damage - granted, it's additive damage; but it will still make you much much stronger and let you farm faster. What that means: the higher paragon you are, the more powerful you are, and the more paragon you will acquire. "Paragon per time" (or "power per time) will not be an exponential curve anymore in Diablo - as it has always been - but it will be a bell curve. Once you're at paragon 2000, you are definitely on the lowering right slope of the bell curve, and you will acquire more power as you go on, and you will not slow down but actually get faster in acquiring this increased power.
I hope some more people start to understand now why there's something wrong with paragon. There are several issues - and relatively "easy fixes", though they might hurt. Note, I am not crying for nerfs or anything - I am almost 1000 myself, so I can see the "benefits of the bell curve" for me as well soon. But I just don't think that running low-level Greater Rifts non-stop every day is the best that this game can offer. Here are my main issues with the paragon system and how I believe it can be fixed:
Problem 1: Paragon leveling becomes slower and slower until 750, stays at approximately a steady pace from 750 to 2000, and becomes even faster after that.
Solution: It should continue to be exponential after 750, and especially after 2000. It cannot be that the power creep is even exacerbated by a bell curve - that simply has to be a design flaw. It doesn't necessarily need to be as crazy exponential as before 750, but as players gain more power it should be harder to get *even more* power.
Problem 2: Paragon levels after 800 are more rewarding than any before.
Solution: After paragon 800, each additional level should only grant 2 main stat (instead of 5). After paragon 1000 - up until 10000 - each additional level should only grant 1 main stat. That would still mean a paragon 1000 player has 400 more main stat than a paragon 800 player, and a paragon 2000 player has 800 more. On this level, those differences matter - especially in season 4/era 4, where top-level players will all have very similar gear thanks to the cube. But at least with a bit of skillful play and luck in GR RNG you can make up for it, and aren't straight out of the competition.
Alternative solution by Skelos_bg: "Cap the bonus from stats at P800. Turn the points after P800 in a currency: With this currency the dedicated players who reach P1k, P1.5k, P2k etc can buy special cosmetic rewards, more stash space etc..."
I love this idea - I would kill for stash space. The option to have one more stash tab every 200 or 500 or 1000 levels or whatever would just sound amazing and, although I dislike paragon leveling, would have me leveling like a mad man. Plus, it wouldn't break the game for anyone else if I'm paragon 5000, but at least I don't have to re-farm all gear when I want to experiment new builds. Thanks!
Problem 3: Greater Rifts, especially low GRs for speed runs in 2-4 minutes, are too rewarding and pigeonhole competitive players into a very specific, tedious, time-consuming, and (in many people's opinion) boring gameplay.
Solution: Make XP gained similar in all aspects of the game. This low GR speed madness only started after the XP was changed to be multiplicative in GRs. I guess this was done because T6 was more effective for XP than GRs (I don't really remember, but I think that was the case), and it gave people a gearing choice (Hellfire Ring or Stone of Jordan? Diamond or Ruby?). However, this means that you want to run GRs only (as it currently yields about 10 times more XP!), and you want to run approximately 20-25 levels below your "real power level", as you can afford to give up DPS for XP gear on at least some characters in the group and run this at an insane speed which yields the best XP/hour. Basically, if this game's rules would apply to football, it would mean that Champions League players would have to practice 10-16 hours a day against mediocre low-league teams to become the best players. I'm not sure that would be fun for either side. The concrete solutions here would be to reverse the multiplicative bonus XP change - or even better, get rid of XP bonuses on gear (just like you did the absolutely right decision by basically removing magic find).
Thanks for reading everyone. If you want to see the complete 1-10000 XP plot, here it is:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MIVWYG18yayYU52xFPIH2iT-N_Yap3_UoQh_ZSHndlY/
(Last change in 2.3, accurate as of October 2016 (2.4.2/S8), thanks to <ZE> Vajet for data and Diablo3Ladder.com for publishing them)
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Seems like your mate is ready for season 4
I haven't even created a character yet :<
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Balefire = Calamity > Kridershot > Odyssey's = Windforce = Leonine > Regular Bow > Crossbow = Regular 1h Crossbow
This is for the Fire UE build, I will publish some math on this by the end of the week.
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[Read it all or don't even bother to watch the video]
Hi everyone,
this is probably one of the more anecdotal videos and posts you will see from me, I just want to share my feelings about the lightning build going into 2.2. You might or might not remember my video of the world first tier 45 solo clear back in September, which sparked the whole lightning DH meta in season 1 and finally got me several rank 1's (including rank 1 world hardcore all classes in 2.1) and eventually ended up beating tier 55. I really enjoyed playing this build and so did many others, but probably just as many didn't get too attached to it. In 2.1.2, Blizzard tried to kill it by nerfing Smoke Screen and the Helltrapper as well as completely changing the M6 playstyle, all of which were core ingredients of the old lightning build. However, on patch day of 2.1.2, I decided that I will not let go of it so easily and cleared a tier 47 rift with a crazy time using only crappy items (no SoJ / Hellfire / ancient weapon) and declared the lightning build to be alive – but I was so wrong. I got a very good rift and a bad RG, tried to scale things up a little and concluded that it might clear 52, maybe 53 in a perfect rift. Still, nobody played it, including myself, even though it was the one thing I loved most when playing solo DH, and then I published my physical guide, and everyone went for that instead.
Season 2 was very short, and even though I managed to take a few rank 1's and ended up being #4, I'm still unhappy that I couldn't beat Gaby's tier 54 because I got only unbeatable rifts in about 200 tries. Well, after having played the lightning build for the last time on the first day of 2.1.2, I decided to do it again on the last day before perma Smoke Screen would (probably) finally vanish and just see how far I can push it. I just tried a couple of runs and this tier 53 runs was the result. I didn't clear it in time because my playstyle was in a very bad shape, I didn't have all the item rolls necessary and I got screwed over by a nasty reflect pack and one of the worst rift guardians, but it's very clear that the damage potential is clearly there once I manage to get a big pull and don't die. Even though we had some resource issues without the old Night Stalker, there were ways to make true perma SS work even in 2.1.2 if you get close to perfect CDR and RCR on basically every slot, which will make you immune to whatever elites and monsters you encounter, then you just need unburieds + goats, a decent map and a decent rift guardian, (maybe something like Avoid got in his rank 1 clear) and there you are - easy tier 55+. Don't get me wrong, lightning really is back now, even stronger than ever before (I estimate 58-62 solo clears) with the crazy combination of Kridershot / Unhallowed Essence / Bastions of Will, but the unique playstyle and feel of perma SS will most likely never return.
So, here's my video, it's mostly unedited, I kept talking here and there and expressed my thoughts during the run. After clearing the first run I also included the RG kill of another one where you can clearly see that lightning could keep up even with physical if you get a good one, yet the AoE potential was just a lot better. I feel so much regret that I didn't go with it before... Another wasted opportunity, and another reminder to never stop trying to create and bring to life more powerful builds.
RIP Perma SS - Tier 53 Lightning
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DH confirmed easiest Tier 50 class?
Good job
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Hi everyone,
as you might probably know, I have done quite some testing on DH on the PTR for 2.2, and while trying to figure out some cool new stuff the Natalya set I came up with a really efficient speedfarm Strafe build which can be used for T6 and speed low GRs (~tier 35) and subsequently made me clear a T6 rift in 44 seconds. The basic idea is to stack a lot of movement speed and keep strafing all the time, thus quickly reducing your RoV cooldown to boost your dps to high levels. I will add a detailed written post to the builds section once 2.2 hits, for now you have to go with this talent calculator link.
The Natalya set has a lot of flexibility in some item slots and gem choices. Since there are not that many clear-cut choices for everything, I tried to give a good overview of what is good to use, but also encourage everyone to try out a few different things with it.
[2.2] Natalya Strafe + RoV Speedfarm Build
Build + written Guide
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Here is the Build + written guide. Enjoy!
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Over time, I have realized that Night Stalker is the best 5th passive to use, even for crossbows. Becomes even better for faster weapons. Steady Aim and Single Out are still useful, but lack behind a little bit.
And in general, with season 2 being over and season 3 just over the horizon, I think it's time to put this build and thread finally to rest. All the information you might want to have is in here somewhere (mostly first post), and the new builds will be better than this anyway. Last night I paid my last respects to the physical build and season 2 by completing my last 54 key no matter what, and it was a horrible rift that took more than 30 min, but I just did it nevertheless. Fun times, see you in season 3!
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Wizard Tier 59 4p (DH PoV)
Hi everyone,
you might know me from over at the DH forums. I'm just here to share my latest video, a 4-player tier 59 run. Avoid of our clan has found a way to boost the Wizard's dps to crazy levels in specific situations, making use of the Hydra spell alongside Flame Blades. It's really strong, potentially stronger than a 2xDH combo, and excels when fighting many targets at once. This clear was done a few nights ago and recently Avoid has agreed to let me stream and share it, so here it is. We have done only a few runs, spawning the RG in time almost every time up to tier 60 (but unfortunately we always got a very bad RG on 60). In this particular clear, we managed to use only one 58 key and upgrade it to 59 and 60 afterwards. Since the season is so short, we will not continue to push further because both Avoid and me are busy pushing for rank 1 solo, but it certainly has the potential to clear 61-62 and take the rank 1 non-sever clear if you put in some time to fish for a good rift.
Previously, whenever a Wizard tried to enter a group for serious greater rift attempts, he would have to resort to playing a different class or would have to be carried by his teammates. With this new build (that I don't know all the details of, but you should be able to tell just from seeing and hearing the video), Wizards can be a good or even better alternative to a second DH in groups.
The Wizard had the potential all along - and this is a prime example of how focusing on only one class will ultimately leave everyone blind to other options. It's not an optimal situation to have only two options for the dps slots, but it's certainly better than one. I hope this encourages everyone to try out new things, especially with all the changes coming up in season 3, and not just sit there crying for buffs or nerfs =)
[Further links]
DH profile
Wiz profile
Crus profile
WD profile
Avoid's livestream
Clx's livestream
My livestream
[EU leaderboards - 4 player - S2]
[Diabloprogress - Wizards - 4 player - S2]
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Tier 53 =)
The RNG was kind with me - I farmed 122 keys and expected to not even get one doable rift - until I cleared it on my 8th try. WTS 114x53 keys!
At the time of the clear, there were two other clears on 53 and until the upload of this video one DH has actually managed to beat 54. Still, I'm very happy that I could clear 53 and I will try my luck in 54 until the end of the season as well. I'm starting to feel bad that it's always the same monster type and map layout on my successful runs =)
4 days to beat 54 - 14:28. I guess my hardcore aspirations are finally stifled now
I would still have completed it for gem upgrades, Leoric could actually be beaten in a Hell Rift on 49. Saxtris, Bone Warlock and Orlash would have certainly failed it.
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Both the 44s run and the actual guide were recorded without the bugged Strafe runes.