Apparently you have not even played on the beta...because none of your preconceived notions are true.
And to top it off, its completely pointless and meaningless.
It does nothing to refute the fact that Electrocute has the best AoE dmg, Equal or better Single target dmg. Ohh and on top of that it has by far the best Arcane power generating capability(You know the only reason to even use a signature).
The beta is the tutorial of the game... who cares what the best moves are in the beta? If you want to worry about what is OP in Normal difficulty fine, but I'm more concerned with Inferno myself. Bosses and Elite mob packs that don't die in 1 or 2 Meteors and dish out enough damage to keep you on your toes and running aren't going to give you time to just spam AP regen skills.
Electrocute DOESN'T have the best AOE damage, depending on the situation and what runes are used, Shock Pulse with Alabaster could create crazy AOE damage, Magic Missle with Indigo adds up to more than Electrocute if used properly etc.
As for single target damage? Again, unless you can just sit there and spam your spells, which if we can take the devs at their word about Inferno we will NOT be able to do, Electrocute being 2 times as fast will not allow it to equate to better or equal single target damage... but who cares, because as even you point out, a signature skill is for when you are unable to get off the attacks that actually do the big damage anyway...
Its a good skill, but it isn't OP like its the only skill you should ever take from that tree. That is your premise and the subject of your poll. I think that is a flawed assumption. Other signatures have their uses as well, things don't work out on paper like they do on a calculator, things don't work in the beta like they will in Inferno, and many builds are not going to rely on or heavily rely on a signature move at all anyway. So how is it OP?
In a spreadsheet environment, a "rotation" like casting Meteor, Meteor, AP Regen Electrocute x 5, Meteor, Meteor would be a ton of dps, but I HIGHLY doubt that will work in Diablo 3 as a viable strategy. It might work OK in Normal and Nightmare, maybe MAYBE even Hell... but if we can take the devs at their word at all, Diablo 3 will be much more about mechanics and challenging gameplay in Inferno rather than late Hell Diablo 2 in which the only difficulty was basically in that there were plenty of mobs out there that could kill you in 1 or 2 hits and the immunes.
Diablo 3 looks to be a deeper game with more varied AI and attack types, with less focus on being squished instantly and more focus on survivability residing in strategic play and awareness. We will be forced to play strategically over time to preserve our health and use our defenses and utilities wisely in addition to just DPSing. At the same time though, monsters won't have millions of HP like an MMO. So, its kind of a hybrid of having more mechanics like an MMO, but still being shorter and more brutal fights without time to go into a rotation trance like an MMO.
If all of this is true, you can't just stand around casting a rotation of spells that will let you infinitely spam Meteors and Hydras. You are going to have to cast 1 or 2 meteors, then run away from a mob's mortar fire and arcane orbs, or flee from the pack of mobs that just climbed up the cliff behind you. You'll need to Teleport, Slow Time, or utilize another AP free cooldown spell like Frost Nova. 12.5 AP per second IS a TON... by the time you have cast your first Meteor and then dealt with the mechanics, you will have the AP for another one. It only takes 5 seconds to recharge your bulb 62 AP.
Even still, if I'm wrong about all of this, then Electrocute AP regen is still only good for some builds, a build that spams Meteors and then spams Electrocute. Other spells that don't cost as much AP can be used in other builds that can do less damage per hit than a meteor, but used properly can compete in dps and have good survivability with better AP management. Electrocute isn't OP across the board, its just better for some things, not all.
I used to think Electrocute was far and away the best too and posted about it in a build of mine as well, but even though I haven't yet played the game of course... getting a better understanding of AP regen deflates the argument that Electrocute is OP.
AP regens so fast that Signature move AP regeneration builds look like they completely suck actually. It looks more and more like many viable end game builds may not even use any signature skills at all actually.
As for the rest, damage and use/speed... it being double the casting speed sounds good on paper, but its one of those things I doubt very much in practice will actually come out to equate to it doing 2 times the damage listed as compared with the damage listed on the other abilities. You'll probably be lucky to get 1.5x in practice.
The runes on some of the other abilities pull away from Electrocute in damage, and runes in general have different effects. Electrocute may be the best signature option for certain things, but not others. Take MM with Indigo for example: 66% x 5 missles. Yes they won't all hit just as much as you won't get true 2x damage with Electrocute's speed, but for tightly packed AOE group where you are pretty much guaranteed to hit with all 5... or if you are good with your aim during a boss fight and hit the boss with 4 or 5 of them each? This blows Electrocute away in damage. It really depends on the use and situation. There are other examples but my post is way to long already.
Thank you both for that tip! I guess I'm still too used to the idea of a large pool of slowly regenerating resource (mana) and haven't really had the opportunity to see a really good video of AP regen until recently. Many of the official videos I saw didn't have the orb at all or didn't show skills being spammed enough to clearly give a picture of how fast that bulb fills. 12.5 per second is a lot faster than I thought when I finally saw someone's beta video of it.
So, based on that, Diamond Skin really is a good idea, and Electrocute, especially runed to regen AP is worthless. Archon could be good too, but I like the idea of opening this build up to not only being able to dish out damage but also increase chance to survive, and DS would help any mishaps with standing still for RoF.
I also changed the passives to remove the AP regen stuff and the now useless Prodigy entirely. The way DS is runed with Indigo, it could stay up almost all the time with Evocation, and Teleport would be available more often. Blur helps even more with the RoF concept as well.
Actually, to better take advantage of now using Evocation, Slow Time might be a better alternative to Familiar. If I understand the Crimson rune right, it would add damage for other party members too, plus the slow in addition to the Evocation synergy seems like an improvement:
Ok, so I don't know if RoFLHydra is a good tile for the build concept or not hehe but this is the Ray of Frost/Hydra build I came up with on the skill calculator. I know, I know, the game isn't out yet and there's no real way to know if anything is good/bad or not without in-game trials, but here it is anyway:
Electrocute is the AP regen skill, and is my personal favorite signature for the time being unless in-game play changes my mind. As long as there are 3 enemies on the screen (which is almost always in Diablo), this combined with the Prodigy passive grants 17 AP per cast. Even when its a boss with no adds, it still grants 9 AP per cast. Shock Pulse just seems like it will miss too much to compete, Spectral Blades is to up close and personal for this build, and magic missle just can't compete per cast for regen.
Hydra is runed with Indigo because a little bird told me the other Hydra effects will tend to miss enemies but lighting strikes are instantaneous, plus it lists as doing more damage. Obviously, in-game and through infinite respec, this skill is very malleable so you can switch this rune to taste or to suit the fights you are getting in, though this would ruin the "L" in "RoFLHydra" hehe.
Ray of Frost is the companion big damage skill to Hydra. Its runed with a Golden, which combined with the Astral Presence passive and high AP regen at higher levels will basically make this a free, high sustained damage cast that keeps enemies slowed and away from you while you snipe them down.
Teleport is runed with Alabaster because this is not an up close and personal build, you want to be able to get away... far away if need be, AND in situations where you can't just run away, but standing still for RoF is not easy to do, Hydra can continue to deal damage while you Teleport a few times to regroup.
Familiar is runed with Crimson (a shock I know :P) but depending on just how "free" RoF is, Golden may be swapped in here to keep your AP from draining.
Energy Armor... honestly, unless the mechanics of the game prove very different from the tooltips and videos we've seen, all of the builds I make on the skill calculator, not just this one, tend to gravitate towards Energy Armor. It just seems superior to me with its 20% defense. The downside of it taking away your AP max is easily runed out for the opposite effect! Indigo rune here so that between Astral presence and Energy Armor, you can focus on keeping Hydra up and RoF going... the less time spent doing maintenance with Electrocute the better. Glavanizing ward provides the only HP refill in this build and you don't want your rhythm messed up even every 3 mins by having to recast it with a build like this either.
TL;DR
Cast Electrocute when AP is below 75 (enough for a Hydra and a Teleport), keep Hydra up, spam free or virtually free RoF as often as possible. Teleport around with Hydra up when standing still for RoF is too dangerous.
Ladder only is almost as bad as MMO style requirements. Not quite as bad, but almost. I actually had to miss out on the fun of playing with others for D2 because I simply couldn't stand the idea of an outside influence deciding when my character gets destroyed. All games are temporary and eventually we all abandon our files in games, but I want the freedom to choose when that happens... not have a ladder reset decide "your done!" I hope they don't have a ladder either now that you bring that up...
After scouring multiple forums and reading blue posts, I've not found the answer...
Does anyone know any information about whether it's only the "content" that will be soloable in any mode (offline, online sp, online co-op), or if loot and enhancement items will be restricted by mode as well?
In MMOs made by this company like WoW, you can only get most of and the best of the "epics" by completing content that requires at least 10 or 25 players... something that is incredibly tedious and turns the game into a job and actually minimizes the social aspect instead of increasing it by turning your "friends" into coworkers and loot generating impersonal objects. IMHO...
I very much hope that you can get the same items in any mode that you can in any other mode in D3. Mutliplayer shouldn't be a requirement for rewards, the fun of playing with your friends should be its own reward. Playing solo shouldn't be punished either. The very worst part of MMOs is the waiting and scheduling and people management. A game should be something you can just turn on and play, if your friends are on or not, and not have any worry about getting less of that carrot on the stick when they aren't.
I kind of understand if they make a larger quantiy loot of the same quality drop in MP, but even then it should be a nominal increase. Anything more than that, and despite that there is not a persistent world, this IS an MMO... basically the hallmark of an MMO is not the number of players total on a server at once, but the fact that multiplayer is required for rewards. I don't want another MMO, I sincerly hope D3 is something refreshing that doesn't require time management.
But, I've not seen any definitive information on this subject yet.
I doubt the system will be anything like this, but I like the idea of having to work specifically for your respec. If you really wanted to respec instead of reroll, still force that to be an investment of your time. If you want to respec you have to earn your respec points, not buy them with gold or questing. So, you click a button that toggles putting experience points you gain into a respec levels pool instead of a leveling pool, and you gain 1 respec point per level gained while that pool is being filled instead of leveling experience. That way, you have to work hard on your existing character to get to respec it. When you reach level 99/100 (or whatever max is) all experience goes to that pool, but that's ok because it takes more and more time to gain a respec level.
This way, people that are really attached to a specific character/build but just need a few points or 10 points to respect to feel totally satisfied that its perfect can do it with an investment of time and effort, but it takes enough effort to respec that people might just rather find rerolling more enjoyable than grinding for a respec. Just an idea.
There are going to be both waypoints and checkpoints.
Nice. Then as long as it isn't as far of a walk from halfway between waypoints as it was halfway between merchants in TQ, we'll all be fine and not miss TPs.
I agree that it was just part of D2 to have portals... not cheap, just part of it, the game was designed with the portal in mind, give the devs some credit...
D3 is a new game, yes, but... after having played Titan Quest, wow is it ever just BORING and game-killing to have to walk all the way back to town though. Sorry if I'm uniformed, but there are going to be waypoints right?
So, I've played LoD single player a bunch way back but never played online. I played WoW for a while, but grinding dallies made me quit. Yuck. Anyway, I can't wait for Diablo III so I got to thinking, if anyone still plays LoD online... I'd be a complete and utterly pitiful noob to multi-player haha, but do you think its even possible to start now just for fun or would it be entirely dissapointingly hard for me being that behind? I'm just trying to get in the spirit of what it will be like once Diablo III hits, because I do intend to try MP this time around while its still new.
Noone really liked this loot diferentiation in D2 (ladder only items).
I hope they don't add that. I think the max they should do is increased rates in HC.
Yeah, I agree, if anything, this only makes sense for Hardcore since the risk is so high, the rewards being higher is somewhat legitimate. It kind of makes sense for PvP, but only if the stuff that drops only on PvP has stats that favor PvP combat... and if they make equipment like that, its starting to be too WoW-like imo.
I can't seem to find this by searching. The closest thing I found was that they said there was no content that wouldn't be solable. Just because the content is solable doesn't mean all types of loot are though.
Does anyone know if there is going to be different loot drops for single player PvM vs multi-player PvM, or different loot drops for PvM vs PvP, or for Hardcore vs non-hardcore?
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The beta is the tutorial of the game... who cares what the best moves are in the beta? If you want to worry about what is OP in Normal difficulty fine, but I'm more concerned with Inferno myself. Bosses and Elite mob packs that don't die in 1 or 2 Meteors and dish out enough damage to keep you on your toes and running aren't going to give you time to just spam AP regen skills.
Electrocute DOESN'T have the best AOE damage, depending on the situation and what runes are used, Shock Pulse with Alabaster could create crazy AOE damage, Magic Missle with Indigo adds up to more than Electrocute if used properly etc.
As for single target damage? Again, unless you can just sit there and spam your spells, which if we can take the devs at their word about Inferno we will NOT be able to do, Electrocute being 2 times as fast will not allow it to equate to better or equal single target damage... but who cares, because as even you point out, a signature skill is for when you are unable to get off the attacks that actually do the big damage anyway...
Its a good skill, but it isn't OP like its the only skill you should ever take from that tree. That is your premise and the subject of your poll. I think that is a flawed assumption. Other signatures have their uses as well, things don't work out on paper like they do on a calculator, things don't work in the beta like they will in Inferno, and many builds are not going to rely on or heavily rely on a signature move at all anyway. So how is it OP?
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Diablo 3 looks to be a deeper game with more varied AI and attack types, with less focus on being squished instantly and more focus on survivability residing in strategic play and awareness. We will be forced to play strategically over time to preserve our health and use our defenses and utilities wisely in addition to just DPSing. At the same time though, monsters won't have millions of HP like an MMO. So, its kind of a hybrid of having more mechanics like an MMO, but still being shorter and more brutal fights without time to go into a rotation trance like an MMO.
If all of this is true, you can't just stand around casting a rotation of spells that will let you infinitely spam Meteors and Hydras. You are going to have to cast 1 or 2 meteors, then run away from a mob's mortar fire and arcane orbs, or flee from the pack of mobs that just climbed up the cliff behind you. You'll need to Teleport, Slow Time, or utilize another AP free cooldown spell like Frost Nova. 12.5 AP per second IS a TON... by the time you have cast your first Meteor and then dealt with the mechanics, you will have the AP for another one. It only takes 5 seconds to recharge your bulb 62 AP.
Even still, if I'm wrong about all of this, then Electrocute AP regen is still only good for some builds, a build that spams Meteors and then spams Electrocute. Other spells that don't cost as much AP can be used in other builds that can do less damage per hit than a meteor, but used properly can compete in dps and have good survivability with better AP management. Electrocute isn't OP across the board, its just better for some things, not all.
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AP regens so fast that Signature move AP regeneration builds look like they completely suck actually. It looks more and more like many viable end game builds may not even use any signature skills at all actually.
As for the rest, damage and use/speed... it being double the casting speed sounds good on paper, but its one of those things I doubt very much in practice will actually come out to equate to it doing 2 times the damage listed as compared with the damage listed on the other abilities. You'll probably be lucky to get 1.5x in practice.
The runes on some of the other abilities pull away from Electrocute in damage, and runes in general have different effects. Electrocute may be the best signature option for certain things, but not others. Take MM with Indigo for example: 66% x 5 missles. Yes they won't all hit just as much as you won't get true 2x damage with Electrocute's speed, but for tightly packed AOE group where you are pretty much guaranteed to hit with all 5... or if you are good with your aim during a boss fight and hit the boss with 4 or 5 of them each? This blows Electrocute away in damage. It really depends on the use and situation. There are other examples but my post is way to long already.
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So, based on that, Diamond Skin really is a good idea, and Electrocute, especially runed to regen AP is worthless. Archon could be good too, but I like the idea of opening this build up to not only being able to dish out damage but also increase chance to survive, and DS would help any mishaps with standing still for RoF.
I also changed the passives to remove the AP regen stuff and the now useless Prodigy entirely. The way DS is runed with Indigo, it could stay up almost all the time with Evocation, and Teleport would be available more often. Blur helps even more with the RoF concept as well.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#VRjiPQ!VfU!YYbaZY
Any better?
Actually, to better take advantage of now using Evocation, Slow Time might be a better alternative to Familiar. If I understand the Crimson rune right, it would add damage for other party members too, plus the slow in addition to the Evocation synergy seems like an improvement:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#VRjiSQ!VfU!YYbaZY
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http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#eRjiPQ!Vcd!bYbaZY
Electrocute is the AP regen skill, and is my personal favorite signature for the time being unless in-game play changes my mind. As long as there are 3 enemies on the screen (which is almost always in Diablo), this combined with the Prodigy passive grants 17 AP per cast. Even when its a boss with no adds, it still grants 9 AP per cast. Shock Pulse just seems like it will miss too much to compete, Spectral Blades is to up close and personal for this build, and magic missle just can't compete per cast for regen.
Hydra is runed with Indigo because a little bird told me the other Hydra effects will tend to miss enemies but lighting strikes are instantaneous, plus it lists as doing more damage. Obviously, in-game and through infinite respec, this skill is very malleable so you can switch this rune to taste or to suit the fights you are getting in, though this would ruin the "L" in "RoFLHydra" hehe.
Ray of Frost is the companion big damage skill to Hydra. Its runed with a Golden, which combined with the Astral Presence passive and high AP regen at higher levels will basically make this a free, high sustained damage cast that keeps enemies slowed and away from you while you snipe them down.
Teleport is runed with Alabaster because this is not an up close and personal build, you want to be able to get away... far away if need be, AND in situations where you can't just run away, but standing still for RoF is not easy to do, Hydra can continue to deal damage while you Teleport a few times to regroup.
Familiar is runed with Crimson (a shock I know :P) but depending on just how "free" RoF is, Golden may be swapped in here to keep your AP from draining.
Energy Armor... honestly, unless the mechanics of the game prove very different from the tooltips and videos we've seen, all of the builds I make on the skill calculator, not just this one, tend to gravitate towards Energy Armor. It just seems superior to me with its 20% defense. The downside of it taking away your AP max is easily runed out for the opposite effect! Indigo rune here so that between Astral presence and Energy Armor, you can focus on keeping Hydra up and RoF going... the less time spent doing maintenance with Electrocute the better. Glavanizing ward provides the only HP refill in this build and you don't want your rhythm messed up even every 3 mins by having to recast it with a build like this either.
TL;DR
Cast Electrocute when AP is below 75 (enough for a Hydra and a Teleport), keep Hydra up, spam free or virtually free RoF as often as possible. Teleport around with Hydra up when standing still for RoF is too dangerous.
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Does anyone know any information about whether it's only the "content" that will be soloable in any mode (offline, online sp, online co-op), or if loot and enhancement items will be restricted by mode as well?
In MMOs made by this company like WoW, you can only get most of and the best of the "epics" by completing content that requires at least 10 or 25 players... something that is incredibly tedious and turns the game into a job and actually minimizes the social aspect instead of increasing it by turning your "friends" into coworkers and loot generating impersonal objects. IMHO...
I very much hope that you can get the same items in any mode that you can in any other mode in D3. Mutliplayer shouldn't be a requirement for rewards, the fun of playing with your friends should be its own reward. Playing solo shouldn't be punished either. The very worst part of MMOs is the waiting and scheduling and people management. A game should be something you can just turn on and play, if your friends are on or not, and not have any worry about getting less of that carrot on the stick when they aren't.
I kind of understand if they make a larger quantiy loot of the same quality drop in MP, but even then it should be a nominal increase. Anything more than that, and despite that there is not a persistent world, this IS an MMO... basically the hallmark of an MMO is not the number of players total on a server at once, but the fact that multiplayer is required for rewards. I don't want another MMO, I sincerly hope D3 is something refreshing that doesn't require time management.
But, I've not seen any definitive information on this subject yet.
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This way, people that are really attached to a specific character/build but just need a few points or 10 points to respect to feel totally satisfied that its perfect can do it with an investment of time and effort, but it takes enough effort to respec that people might just rather find rerolling more enjoyable than grinding for a respec. Just an idea.
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Nice. Then as long as it isn't as far of a walk from halfway between waypoints as it was halfway between merchants in TQ, we'll all be fine and not miss TPs.
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D3 is a new game, yes, but... after having played Titan Quest, wow is it ever just BORING and game-killing to have to walk all the way back to town though. Sorry if I'm uniformed, but there are going to be waypoints right?
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0
Yeah, I agree, if anything, this only makes sense for Hardcore since the risk is so high, the rewards being higher is somewhat legitimate. It kind of makes sense for PvP, but only if the stuff that drops only on PvP has stats that favor PvP combat... and if they make equipment like that, its starting to be too WoW-like imo.
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Does anyone know if there is going to be different loot drops for single player PvM vs multi-player PvM, or different loot drops for PvM vs PvP, or for Hardcore vs non-hardcore?