Alright, this is one of those thread where when one got tired of running rifts and decide to fantasize how the game can be improved...
Keep in mind that I am well aware of Bliz's firm stances on NO to putting skill points.. but it doesn't hurt anybody to fantasize about this... So for those who are tired of reading posts like this, you can simply skip this post.
Also, I understand Bliz wants to keep things simple and focus on itemization, and I agree with that..
But this was just rough idea I have been thinking on the weekends, and have come up with a clearer picture of how this should work... and this could also help with usage of Gold, and encourage people to play more Adventure mode, or even story mode...
I am just gonna post this before I go to sleep...
The Cons for skill point system has been discussed by Autocthon and st0rmie in another post, so no this is not another post that's like, "HOLY SHIT, MAJOR REVOLUTIONARY IDEA FOR D3, BLIZ MUST READ, OR ELSE THE WORLD WILL END." I am well aware of the flaws, but there are already so many posts coming up with ideas for itemization so there's no need for a similar post. This is just one of the posts you haven't seen for 1-2 years because everybody knows Bliz got rid of the skill point system for good. Could be interesting for you to read.
Anyway, basically, there will be 4 main concepts.
1. Skill points can be allocated in Passive Skills
2. Items now has a new affix which will give bonus skill points to certain Passive Skills.
3. There will be a NPC who will help you with those items.
4. There will be a new material called "Dark shards", Blood shards
So now let's go into details
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SKILL POINT IN PASSIVE SKILLS
1. You gain 5 skill points at level 10, and then 1 skill points for every 2 levels. (MAX of 35 skill points for a character at level 70)
2. You gain 1 skill points for every 50 paragons.
3. You will be able to put these skill points in any passive skills you want, with each point increasing the effectiveness of that passive.
4. There's a maxim number of skill points you can put in each skill; some skills may have higher level cap than other skills.
5. It's possible to exceed the passive skill cap, by equipping items that give passive skill bonus.
EXAMPLE:
(old) Pound of Flesh - Gain 50% additional life from health globe. (Current skill effect)
*new* Pound of Flesh (0/5) - Gain 10/20/30/40/50% additional life and 2/4/6/8/10 Fury from health globe.
(old) Ruthless - You deal 40% additional damage to enemies below 30% health. (Current Skill effect)
*new* Ruthless (0/6) - You deal 15/23/29/34/38/41% additional damage to enemies below 15/19/23/26/29/32% health.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ITEMS THAT GIVE BONUS SKILL POINTS TO PASSIVE SKILLS
1. Items now has a chance to roll with a new secondary affix that provide bonus skill point to Passive Skills.
2. The new secondary affix cannot be re-rolled by Enchantress, but can be done through someone else - the new NPC I will talk about later.
3. Legacy items that do not have this affix can have the affix added to the item by the new NPC.
4. If an item rolls with the new secondary affix, it will give bonus like this:
+2 to Skill One, + 1 to Skill Two (10% chance)
+2 to Skill One. (40% chance)
+1 to Skill One, + 1 to Skill One (40% chance)
+1 to Skill One (10% chance)
-
5. Hellfire Amulet will be a special Legendary that provide a much better new secondary affix:
+ 3 to Skill One, +3 to Skill Two
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ DARK SHARDS
1. Dark Shards will be guarantee drop by Key Wardens and Uber bosses.
2. You get Dark Shards instead of Blood Shards for completing Quest in Adventure mode.
3. Horadric Caches are also guaranteed to drop Dark Shards.
4. Dark Shards will be used by the NPC to help you improve (or sometimes worsen) your items.
5. Dark Shards will drop rarely in Rifts.
Dark Shards hopefully will give players more rewarding experience when they play Adventure Mode and Story Mode. Also, it should help to lessen the frustration of not finding any key or organ after killing Key Warden and Uber bosses.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ NEW NPC
1. He's probably someone from Hell who has access to the Hellforge.
2. He can add an item affix that gives bonus skill points to Passive Skills on a item that does not have this affix, for a price:
Magical Items - 1 Dark Shards, some gold, some magical crafting materials
Rare Items - 1 Dark Shards, some gold, some rare crafting materials
Legendary and Set Items - 10 Dark Shards, 1 Forgotten Soul (or 1 Fiery Brimstone), a lot of gold, some magical and rare crafting materials.
3. He can re-roll the item affix that gives bonus skill points to Passive Skills, with increasing gold cost with each re-roll (like Enchanting).
Magical Items - 1 Dark Shards, some gold, some magical crafting materials
Rare Items - 1 Dark Shards, some gold, some rare crafting materials
Legendary and Set Items - 10 Dark Shards, 1 Forgotten Soul (or 1 Fiery Brimstone), a lot of gold, some magical and rare crafting materials.
-
*Hellfire Amulet's affix cannot be re-rolled.
4. He can re-roll an item with completely new stats and affix, with increasing cost of Dark Shards, Forgotten Soul/Fiery Brimstone and Gold. Also, different type of items have different cost.
Magical Items - 3 Dark Shards, some gold, some magical crafting materials
Rare Items - 6 Dark Shards, some gold, some rare crafting materials
Legendary and Set Items - 20-40 Dark Shards, 2-5 Forgotten Soul (or Fiery Brimstone), a lot of gold, some magical and rare crafting materials.
-
This is intended to try your luck with Legacy items, or with the Legendary items you really want but have rolled with pathetic stats that's beyond help even by the Enchantress. The increasing costs for re-rolling will hopefully prevent players from repetitively re-rolling the same legendary items, as it will be more efficient to just find a new item of the same kind, after that legendary item has been re-rolled 1-2 times. Of course, some players will always try to re-roll some specific items no matter how costly it has become, like Furnace. But then the need of Dark Shards kinda force you to play more Adventure Mode than you normally would need to, so you might as well go back to the Never-ending Hell of Rift runs to find new items.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ CONCLUSION
The whole idea is just to enrich the end game for D3, without adding too many complicate components. This should also help to give players more rewarding experience for their time spent in D3. Also, being able to put skill points in Passive Skills allow you to build your characters either more effectively or more interestingly than the old Passive Skill system. The numbers can be worked, so the new system will not change the game too significantly and people who want to use the same passives can still be effective, but the builds will be improved because there will be items that give bonus to Passive Skills.
And that Pound of Flesh example.. I still think some Barbs would go 5/5, some would go 0/5, and nobody would actually go 3/5. They'd look at it, look at the other passive they were considering putting some points in.. and go 5/5 on one and none on the other.
Yuck, you seem to have been brainwashed by the modern insanity of cookie cutter.......
Unlike the videos you watch, well over 50% of the D3 population is already trying random new and intricate things for the sake of trying them. We are sick of doing "the best" thing, and want to do "the fun" thing.
Introducing some manner of buffing passives is certainly an entertaining idea!
Sorry, I think even the people trying random new things for fun are going to say "it would be fun to take Pound of Flesh" or "it would be fun to take (some other Passive)".. NOT "it would be fun to take half of each".
And I never disagreed that some manner of buffing passives would be interesting.
Well there are some skills I will just need partial bonus of, such as Unforgiving and Boon of Bul-Kathos because I won't need as much fury regeneration or as much cooldown reduction for my other skills because my items have enough CDR. And also skill like Superstition. I don't mind having a little buff for my resistance, but I don't need the whole 20%. Or if I want, I could try to boost it up to 24% just because one of my item has skill point bonus to that skill.
Yes, I understand they are two very different games from design perspective, but after all, it's been called the FPS of Diablo, so that's why I compared them. And very nice of you explain the pros and cons in details. But see, I was hoping that D3 passive could achieve this kind of state, as you have described for BL
"and the ones where you absolutely HAVE to make a choice generally have little enough crunch that it becomes preference."
Of course this will probably take major work, and the energy can be used to expand on itemization aspect of the game.
"because (from a designer perspective) balancing one system is far easier than balancing two."
That's why never in my post I show strong urge to push the ideas because in reality, it will take too much work and they might as well develop another new game. But then, I am just reluctant to see skill point system totally neglected.
I respect your opinions, but I simply do not agree with you on a lot of the ideas. Good thing this is a free country and I am allowed to disagree. I don't like forcing my ideas on people, but your arguments also cannot persuade me. So it's all cool.
You are perfectly welcome to disagree. I'm simply trying to impress on you how, the the fantasy sounds great, the mechanics simply don't translate.
Effectively the only way to make a skill point system fair is for all bonuses to be additive with the exact same scaling. For optimization the alternatives are...
Bonuses Same, Multiplicative: One point in everything that multiplies what you want to do, continue to spread points evenly to maximize multiplicative output.
Bonuses Different, Additive/Multiplicative - Cap each skill that affects what you want to do in order of highest total multiplier.
Yes; it's a great system for feeling like a special snowflake. No; the system has consistently shown itself non-viable for balance and offering actual choices to players.
There's games and games and games and even in the BEST skill-point systems there's no escaping the fact that the skill point systems provide far more false choice than they do real choice. Players like you who are looking more for "feeling" obviously gravitate toward the design as properly executed the balance is good enough that the baseline is usable. However for players looking for optimization the system only presents a simple math problem to pick the absolute best output for expenditure. This is also a core problem with itemization (though blizzard is trying its best to fix it, and for the most part has produced several roughly balanced output potentials within classes).
What you REALLY want is a reason to take those lesser used passives. And there are much better ways (objectively) to approach the problem than adding an at best net-neutral mechanic. Maybe add a ring with the effect "Gain (damage stat) based on health globe bonus" with a generous conversion. Suddenly that "bad" 50% health globe bonus that you want a reason to use becomes a viable replacement for another damage passive. And it does so without adding a thousand false choices to the game or adding an "optimization spreadsheet" situation. You add a single point of balance rather than changing 30 passives into 150 passives. You can now tune how desirable the globe passive is by supporting it with another item (Razor Strop fire nova build???) or tuning a skill to synergize with it (HotA - Birthright). Rather than adding a passive minigame you create an environment that asks the player to work toward items that synergize with each other or find ways to improve their weak spots that synergize with their build.
Now some part of the stuff I wholeheartedly agree. For example, adding an legendary that gives special affix that benefits the Health Globe Bonus.
And actually I was one of those people who actually defended D3 when it came out, telling D2 that stats point and skill point were illusion of player's freedom to choose their own builds because there were only a few viable builds in D2. But then not all players, including me, just want to build characters that has the most optimal and viable builds. I don't mind building characters that are good to own Tier 6 and only able to do up to Grift 35, as long as it's fun and interesting for me. I just feel like choosing how much bonus I can get from my passive would make it more fun, even though it might be an illusion of free choice. In fact, I think most players will probably have 1 or 2 characters that are optimally built, and the rest are just for fun and experimentation, and it would be more fun for me and some players if we could choose more than 4 passives (or 5 with Hellfire Amulet). After all, games are to provide entertaining value. A game that is not fun to you, may be fun for others. Truth is, they will never to balance the game with itemization anyway, so skill point system in passive skills is definitely an option to make the game "FEEL" more entertaining without further wrecking the balance.
Like I said, I integrated this concept with other concepts which I have posted somewhere else. So it's not just simply skill points in passive skills I have in mind.
I like the game now, and I like the way it's going. And I really don't mind if they never implement skill point system, since you have made it sound like an obstacle to make a game fun (however games like Borderland and Borderland 2 are actually pretty fun to me).
Well the scenario will totally change if it's 50% health globe bonus and 0% damage vs 10% damage and 0% health globe bonus.
This will probably a case where I may consider choosing 20% health globe bonus and 6% damage. The number can be worked on, but I am not gonna freaking write up a whole passive tree. Bliz is not even gonna look it, let along implement it. I am just writing out my idea to the extent I see fit.
I mean, you can say, why bother posting this post then?
True, but if that's logic, than 90% of the posts in the forum shouldn't have been created in the first place.
I don't see why not. That's how skill worked back in D2, you don't get to maximize all the skills you want because there is not enough skill points. And there are some skills where partial bonus is more enough.
So take Pound of Flesh as an example...
Right now the skill gives you 50% additional health from globe... well, personally I don't feel I need that much, so I can maybe just put 3 points in there so I gain only 30% bonus and I can put these 2 skill points in other passive skills..
My memory of D2 was that there were certain skills you wanted to pump to 20, and certain skills which you would put only 1 point in (because they had diminishing returns, or because you only wanted them as prereqs) and maybe pump with items.
I don't recall any significant amount of decision making going on beyond "all in" or "just the one".
And that Pound of Flesh example.. I still think some Barbs would go 5/5, some would go 0/5, and nobody would actually go 3/5. They'd look at it, look at the other passive they were considering putting some points in.. and go 5/5 on one and none on the other.
So for Pound of Flesh, it's either 0% HP bonus , or 50% bonus HP?... 30% bonus HP from health globe would be totally useless?
And what if I get extra 2 or 3 points at the end, after I have maximize all the passive skills I really want?
..would you ever build a character with two separate passives each "half full"? Or would you just fill up the four you wanted full?
If not.. and I suspect that you would not.. then what's the point?
No, it doesn't have to be limited to be only four passives. You can put points in any passive skills. 3 points here, 4 points there. And you can get extra points from item attribute, possibly going over max points you can put in a passive skill, just like Diablo 2.
So for example if you put 5 points, which is the max points you can put in that skill, in Pound of Flesh, you will gain 50% additional life from health globe. But one of your item has +1 to Pound of Flesh, so your Pound of Flesh will be 6/5, and you gain 60% instead.
And if you feel like you only need additional 20% from health globe, then you can just put 2 points in that skill.
You misunderstand my question. I was saying: "Would YOU ever choose to only put, say, 2/5 in Pound of Flesh so you could have points left for another 'half full' passive?"
I don't think anyone would. I think everyone would pick the four passives they want most - same as they do now - and fill them up.
So the only interesting element remaining is that it becomes possible for items to grant partial passives.
I don't see why not. That's how skill worked back in D2, you don't get to maximize all the skills you want because there is not enough skill points. And there are some skills where partial bonus is more enough.
So take Pound of Flesh as an example...
Right now the skill gives you 50% additional health from globe... well, personally I don't feel I need that much, so I can maybe just put 3 points in there so I gain only 30% bonus and I can put these 2 skill points in other passive skills..
And if one day Bliz really goes nuts and decides to implement this system... they can easily make some modification to this passive skill to make partial bonus more tempting.. for example...
the new Pond of Flesh can be like... "You gain 10/20/30/40/50% additional health and 2/4/6/8/10 Fury from health globe"...
So for some barb, it may be useful to just have 3 points in this skill...
And about these items.. I actually have come up with new ideas that can help putting passive skill bonus on items while also making good use of legacy items and legendary items with crappy affix that's beyond hopeless even with the help of enchantress... and also maybe encouraging people to play more adventure mode or even story mode...
Because just like it has always been in almost all skill point system games it will take a few people doing a bit of math to cleverly break the system and reveal all the flaws. Skill point systems are by their nature flawed in aRPGs and MMOs. This is why many games are moving away from skill point systems to skill experience or something more complicated/less impact with less clear or impossible optimization.
Regardless D3 already uses a skill point system. You have 4 points to spend on passive slots chosen from whatever number of passives are available to you at your level. Maybe at some point there will be more gear which improves passives (Helskull), but there won't be a skill point system for many reasons. Not the least of which being that your power is intended to come from your gear not the 20 points you threw in frozen orb that will carry you from level 50 to level 99 (and you'll get nearly zero power increase in between because the system is broken).
Legacy items are not intended to be used. That's why they're legacy items, that's why there are seasons. Bounties are intended to be something players do before they rift or when they've run out of rift resources, they're not intended to be the core of playtime and more of a "I feel like not rifting" reward scheme (caches could be improved but that's an incentive talk and not about design intent). Story mode is designed, rightly so, to be something a player only ever has to do once. Doing it more than once defeats the purpose of adventure mode, think of adventure mode as new game + from many RPGs.
If you want a skill point system play Path of Exile or Grim Dawn. The former has one of the more balances point systems I've seen (it's still terribly imbalanced in terms of where you'll be spending your points) and if Grim Dawn learned from TQ it should have a solid progression of skill points (though once again it most likely has imbalanced expenditure targets).
Yes I am well aware of what you are talking about. I am actually one of the people who never complained about loss of skill point system in D3 because it's actually exhausting to figure out the optimal skill points to put in skills, especially the active ones. And the balance will become a big issue.
That's why I only mention putting points in PASSIVE SKILLS, but not ACTIVE SKILLS. Seriously sometimes I feel Pound of Flesh can be useful, but compared to other barbarian's Passive Skills, no way anyone is going to pick it. But what if we could just put a few points in that skill. Personally I feel the Passive Skills in D3 now is imbalanced anyway, and adding skill point system in there may help to improve the balancing issue. (e.g. more skill points are needed to reach the level cap for damage/defense improving passive skills.)
And about Legacy items... I just thought it can be salvaged in another way so you get reward for ever finding these legacy items before...
And about adventure mode.. people are farming for keys and rift keys anyway, I am just thinking giving some more rewards for doing those... and those rewards can be found in story mode as well... it's an incentive... but you can totally skip it...
And No, I will not move to other games... I love Diablo the way it is actually... I am just fantasizing how it can be improved, but thanks for your input..
I have actually written a detailed explanation in the official D3 forum... I will see what response I get from there..
if people are not irritated by it, I will post it here and we can all have our D3 improvement fantasy orgy.
..would you ever build a character with two separate passives each "half full"? Or would you just fill up the four you wanted full?
If not.. and I suspect that you would not.. then what's the point?
No, it doesn't have to be limited to be only four passives. You can put points in any passive skills. 3 points here, 4 points there. And you can get extra points from item attribute, possibly going over max points you can put in a passive skill, just like Diablo 2.
So for example if you put 5 points, which is the max points you can put in that skill, in Pound of Flesh, you will gain 50% additional life from health globe. But one of your item has +1 to Pound of Flesh, so your Pound of Flesh will be 6/5, and you gain 60% instead.
And if you feel like you only need additional 20% from health globe, then you can just put 2 points in that skill.
You misunderstand my question. I was saying: "Would YOU ever choose to only put, say, 2/5 in Pound of Flesh so you could have points left for another 'half full' passive?"
I don't think anyone would. I think everyone would pick the four passives they want most - same as they do now - and fill them up.
So the only interesting element remaining is that it becomes possible for items to grant partial passives.
I don't see why not. That's how skill worked back in D2, you don't get to maximize all the skills you want because there is not enough skill points. And there are some skills where partial bonus is more enough.
So take Pound of Flesh as an example...
Right now the skill gives you 50% additional health from globe... well, personally I don't feel I need that much, so I can maybe just put 3 points in there so I gain only 30% bonus and I can put these 2 skill points in other passive skills..
And if one day Bliz really goes nuts and decides to implement this system... they can easily make some modification to this passive skill to make partial bonus more tempting.. for example...
the new Pond of Flesh can be like... "You gain 10/20/30/40/50% additional health and 2/4/6/8/10 Fury from health globe"...
So for some barb, it may be useful to just have 3 points in this skill...
And about these items.. I actually have come up with new ideas that can help putting passive skill bonus on items while also making good use of legacy items and legendary items with crappy affix that's beyond hopeless even with the help of enchantress... and also maybe encouraging people to play more adventure mode or even story mode...
besides blizzard was emphasizing on their regret that they people didnt pick things like find potion because 1 out of 6 was too much for 'fun' skills, if they made these things into passive skill points, they could give us more fun passives too and you wouldnt feel pigeonholed into always taking the biggest dps upgrade, especially if items gave random points into the skills.
Yeah, that's actually part of a reason I would like to see this implanted, because we will get to have some fun passive abilities that people can actually put skill points in, instead of wasting one whole passive skill slots.
..would you ever build a character with two separate passives each "half full"? Or would you just fill up the four you wanted full?
If not.. and I suspect that you would not.. then what's the point?
No, it doesn't have to be limited to be only four passives. You can put points in any passive skills. 3 points here, 4 points there. And you can get extra points from item attribute, possibly going over max points you can put in a passive skill, just like Diablo 2.
So for example if you put 5 points, which is the max points you can put in that skill, in Pound of Flesh, you will gain 50% additional life from health globe. But one of your item has +1 to Pound of Flesh, so your Pound of Flesh will be 6/5, and you gain 60% instead.
And if you feel like you only need additional 20% from health globe, then you can just put 2 points in that skill.
You should probably research Blizzard's stances on its design changes from Diablo 2 to Diablo 3 back in 2011 when the beta was running because this is just going to repeat that information.
Yep.
They aren't going to budge from this stance. They've moved WoW away from the point system as well. Current design philosophy at Blizzard is to keep it simple, but ensure that stats are arcane.
Oh they even removed point system in WoW? Wow...(no puns intended, lol)
I think skill points in passive abilities won't make the game too complicated. It would satisfy the hardcore players who wants to optimize their passive bonuses, and please casual players like me who just like to see the less popular passive being utilized. I mean I have never seen Barb using Pound of Flesh as passive..... but with skill point system people might just start putting points in it.
You should probably research Blizzard's stances on its design changes from Diablo 2 to Diablo 3 back in 2011 when the beta was running because this is just going to repeat that information.
Yeah I understand their stance. And I do like the way the game system is headed, no complaints from me. Just that putting skill points in passive skill will much simpler in terms of balance than putting skill points in active skills, but I feel can help build character diversity even more, rather than totally relying on RNG-dependent items. I just feels that sometimes I just need a partial bonus of certain passives or a stronger version of certain passives, and by using skill point system this can be done.
But I understand many people have talked about this, and bliz's stance is pretty firm. Just sharing my thoughts on how the game can be improved.
I am pretty sure many people, especially Diablo 2 lovers have already thought about this. I think this can be an interesting idea. I mean it will probably be similar to WoW talent system (I don't play WoW, but last time I saw it, I remember seeing putting skill points in talents, which is like passive abilities).
I mean putting skill points in passive skills would help to satisfy those who would like to build their characters using skill points and possibly allow more usage for gold and normal gem.
So take Barbarian's first three passive skills for instance.
Pound of Flesh - Gain 50% additional life from health globe. (Current skill effect)
it can become something like this:
*new* Pound of Flesh (0/5) - Gain X% additional life from health globe. (or Maybe even add more bonus like increase pickup range.)
Ruthless - You deal 40% additional damage to enemies below 30% health. (Current Skill effect)
*new* Ruthless (0/8) - You deal X% additional damage to enemies below Y% health.
Nerve of Steel - Fatal damage instead reduces you to 15% Life. For 3 seconds afterward, you take 95% reduced damage and are immune to all control-impairing effects. This effect may occur once every 60 seconds.
*new* Nerve of Steel (0/6) - Fatal damage instead reduces you to X% Life. For 3 seconds afterward, you take Y% reduced damage and are immune to all control-impairing effects. This effect may occur once every Z seconds.
So these are just examples and the numbers can be easily worked on and balanced.
And how can this help make use of gold and gems?
Well, for starter, it will cost gold to relocate skill points. We'll just need an NPC to do that.
And then there's the issue with items which will provide bonus to the passive skills. I am sure a lot of people has suffered the agonizing pain after they introduced Ancient version of legendary items, making a lot of your old item obsolete, especially weapons, so a possible solution to avoid this is to allow this NPC to be able to add or change the passive skill bonus on your item.
So each item will now drop with a chance to have an extra attribute that is neither primary or secondary, and that attribute will provide bonus to passive skills. For those items which do not have the extra attribute, you can pay extra gold and gems to NPC to add a random passive skill bonus to your item. And if you are not satisfied with the current passive skill bonus, you can also pay to change it. Yes, it works almost exactly the same as enchanting, so why not include the bonus as a secondary or primary attribute, which will be changeable by the enchantress.
Well, for one, I think there will not be enough attribute slots on items. I mean a lot of people are already getting rid of attribute like vitality for the items, and now they have to get rid of even other attributes for passive skill bonus? I know Bliz wants us to struggle a bit on choosing our own optimal items, and I do actually like it, but I think adding another must-have attribute into the pool will make a lot of weep. (I would.)
And about Hellfire amulet.... the new Hellfire amulet should always comes with a passive skill bonus, and a very good one that cannot be changed by the NPC (just like some of the legendary items' non-unique attribute, eg. Utar's Roar's +% cold damage, non-unique yet unchangeable by the enchantress) .... but then I am not sure what to do with all the Hellfire amulets we have already got... make it available to exchange an old one with a new one?
So that's my take on passive skills. At least that's giving the players a bit more freedom on building their characters rather than relying 90% on RNG.
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Alright, this is one of those thread where when one got tired of running rifts and decide to fantasize how the game can be improved...
Keep in mind that I am well aware of Bliz's firm stances on NO to putting skill points.. but it doesn't hurt anybody to fantasize about this... So for those who are tired of reading posts like this, you can simply skip this post.
Also, I understand Bliz wants to keep things simple and focus on itemization, and I agree with that..
But this was just rough idea I have been thinking on the weekends, and have come up with a clearer picture of how this should work... and this could also help with usage of Gold, and encourage people to play more Adventure mode, or even story mode...
I am just gonna post this before I go to sleep...
The Cons for skill point system has been discussed by Autocthon and st0rmie in another post, so no this is not another post that's like, "HOLY SHIT, MAJOR REVOLUTIONARY IDEA FOR D3, BLIZ MUST READ, OR ELSE THE WORLD WILL END." I am well aware of the flaws, but there are already so many posts coming up with ideas for itemization so there's no need for a similar post. This is just one of the posts you haven't seen for 1-2 years because everybody knows Bliz got rid of the skill point system for good. Could be interesting for you to read.
Anyway, basically, there will be 4 main concepts.
1. Skill points can be allocated in Passive Skills
2. Items now has a new affix which will give bonus skill points to certain Passive Skills.
3. There will be a NPC who will help you with those items.
4. There will be a new material called "Dark shards", Blood shards
So now let's go into details
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SKILL POINT IN PASSIVE SKILLS
1. You gain 5 skill points at level 10, and then 1 skill points for every 2 levels. (MAX of 35 skill points for a character at level 70)
2. You gain 1 skill points for every 50 paragons.
3. You will be able to put these skill points in any passive skills you want, with each point increasing the effectiveness of that passive.
4. There's a maxim number of skill points you can put in each skill; some skills may have higher level cap than other skills.
5. It's possible to exceed the passive skill cap, by equipping items that give passive skill bonus.
EXAMPLE:
(old) Pound of Flesh - Gain 50% additional life from health globe. (Current skill effect)
*new* Pound of Flesh (0/5) - Gain 10/20/30/40/50% additional life and 2/4/6/8/10 Fury from health globe.
(old) Ruthless - You deal 40% additional damage to enemies below 30% health. (Current Skill effect)
*new* Ruthless (0/6) - You deal 15/23/29/34/38/41% additional damage to enemies below 15/19/23/26/29/32% health.
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ITEMS THAT GIVE BONUS SKILL POINTS TO PASSIVE SKILLS
1. Items now has a chance to roll with a new secondary affix that provide bonus skill point to Passive Skills.
2. The new secondary affix cannot be re-rolled by Enchantress, but can be done through someone else - the new NPC I will talk about later.
3. Legacy items that do not have this affix can have the affix added to the item by the new NPC.
4. If an item rolls with the new secondary affix, it will give bonus like this:
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5. Hellfire Amulet will be a special Legendary that provide a much better new secondary affix:
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DARK SHARDS
1. Dark Shards will be guarantee drop by Key Wardens and Uber bosses.
2. You get Dark Shards instead of Blood Shards for completing Quest in Adventure mode.
3. Horadric Caches are also guaranteed to drop Dark Shards.
4. Dark Shards will be used by the NPC to help you improve (or sometimes worsen) your items.
5. Dark Shards will drop rarely in Rifts.
Dark Shards hopefully will give players more rewarding experience when they play Adventure Mode and Story Mode. Also, it should help to lessen the frustration of not finding any key or organ after killing Key Warden and Uber bosses.
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NEW NPC
1. He's probably someone from Hell who has access to the Hellforge.
2. He can add an item affix that gives bonus skill points to Passive Skills on a item that does not have this affix, for a price:
3. He can re-roll the item affix that gives bonus skill points to Passive Skills, with increasing gold cost with each re-roll (like Enchanting).
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*Hellfire Amulet's affix cannot be re-rolled.
4. He can re-roll an item with completely new stats and affix, with increasing cost of Dark Shards, Forgotten Soul/Fiery Brimstone and Gold. Also, different type of items have different cost.
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This is intended to try your luck with Legacy items, or with the Legendary items you really want but have rolled with pathetic stats that's beyond help even by the Enchantress. The increasing costs for re-rolling will hopefully prevent players from repetitively re-rolling the same legendary items, as it will be more efficient to just find a new item of the same kind, after that legendary item has been re-rolled 1-2 times. Of course, some players will always try to re-roll some specific items no matter how costly it has become, like Furnace. But then the need of Dark Shards kinda force you to play more Adventure Mode than you normally would need to, so you might as well go back to the Never-ending Hell of Rift runs to find new items.
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CONCLUSION
The whole idea is just to enrich the end game for D3, without adding too many complicate components. This should also help to give players more rewarding experience for their time spent in D3. Also, being able to put skill points in Passive Skills allow you to build your characters either more effectively or more interestingly than the old Passive Skill system. The numbers can be worked, so the new system will not change the game too significantly and people who want to use the same passives can still be effective, but the builds will be improved because there will be items that give bonus to Passive Skills.
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Well there are some skills I will just need partial bonus of, such as Unforgiving and Boon of Bul-Kathos because I won't need as much fury regeneration or as much cooldown reduction for my other skills because my items have enough CDR. And also skill like Superstition. I don't mind having a little buff for my resistance, but I don't need the whole 20%. Or if I want, I could try to boost it up to 24% just because one of my item has skill point bonus to that skill.
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Yes, I understand they are two very different games from design perspective, but after all, it's been called the FPS of Diablo, so that's why I compared them. And very nice of you explain the pros and cons in details. But see, I was hoping that D3 passive could achieve this kind of state, as you have described for BL
"and the ones where you absolutely HAVE to make a choice generally have little enough crunch that it becomes preference."
Of course this will probably take major work, and the energy can be used to expand on itemization aspect of the game.
"because (from a designer perspective) balancing one system is far easier than balancing two."
That's why never in my post I show strong urge to push the ideas because in reality, it will take too much work and they might as well develop another new game. But then, I am just reluctant to see skill point system totally neglected.
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You are perfectly welcome to disagree. I'm simply trying to impress on you how, the the fantasy sounds great, the mechanics simply don't translate.
Effectively the only way to make a skill point system fair is for all bonuses to be additive with the exact same scaling. For optimization the alternatives are...
Bonuses Same, Multiplicative: One point in everything that multiplies what you want to do, continue to spread points evenly to maximize multiplicative output.
Bonuses Different, Additive/Multiplicative - Cap each skill that affects what you want to do in order of highest total multiplier.
Yes; it's a great system for feeling like a special snowflake. No; the system has consistently shown itself non-viable for balance and offering actual choices to players.
There's games and games and games and even in the BEST skill-point systems there's no escaping the fact that the skill point systems provide far more false choice than they do real choice. Players like you who are looking more for "feeling" obviously gravitate toward the design as properly executed the balance is good enough that the baseline is usable. However for players looking for optimization the system only presents a simple math problem to pick the absolute best output for expenditure. This is also a core problem with itemization (though blizzard is trying its best to fix it, and for the most part has produced several roughly balanced output potentials within classes).
What you REALLY want is a reason to take those lesser used passives. And there are much better ways (objectively) to approach the problem than adding an at best net-neutral mechanic. Maybe add a ring with the effect "Gain (damage stat) based on health globe bonus" with a generous conversion. Suddenly that "bad" 50% health globe bonus that you want a reason to use becomes a viable replacement for another damage passive. And it does so without adding a thousand false choices to the game or adding an "optimization spreadsheet" situation. You add a single point of balance rather than changing 30 passives into 150 passives. You can now tune how desirable the globe passive is by supporting it with another item (Razor Strop fire nova build???) or tuning a skill to synergize with it (HotA - Birthright). Rather than adding a passive minigame you create an environment that asks the player to work toward items that synergize with each other or find ways to improve their weak spots that synergize with their build.
Now some part of the stuff I wholeheartedly agree. For example, adding an legendary that gives special affix that benefits the Health Globe Bonus.
And actually I was one of those people who actually defended D3 when it came out, telling D2 that stats point and skill point were illusion of player's freedom to choose their own builds because there were only a few viable builds in D2. But then not all players, including me, just want to build characters that has the most optimal and viable builds. I don't mind building characters that are good to own Tier 6 and only able to do up to Grift 35, as long as it's fun and interesting for me. I just feel like choosing how much bonus I can get from my passive would make it more fun, even though it might be an illusion of free choice. In fact, I think most players will probably have 1 or 2 characters that are optimally built, and the rest are just for fun and experimentation, and it would be more fun for me and some players if we could choose more than 4 passives (or 5 with Hellfire Amulet). After all, games are to provide entertaining value. A game that is not fun to you, may be fun for others. Truth is, they will never to balance the game with itemization anyway, so skill point system in passive skills is definitely an option to make the game "FEEL" more entertaining without further wrecking the balance.
Like I said, I integrated this concept with other concepts which I have posted somewhere else. So it's not just simply skill points in passive skills I have in mind.
I like the game now, and I like the way it's going. And I really don't mind if they never implement skill point system, since you have made it sound like an obstacle to make a game fun (however games like Borderland and Borderland 2 are actually pretty fun to me).
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Well the scenario will totally change if it's 50% health globe bonus and 0% damage vs 10% damage and 0% health globe bonus.
This will probably a case where I may consider choosing 20% health globe bonus and 6% damage. The number can be worked on, but I am not gonna freaking write up a whole passive tree. Bliz is not even gonna look it, let along implement it. I am just writing out my idea to the extent I see fit.
I mean, you can say, why bother posting this post then?
True, but if that's logic, than 90% of the posts in the forum shouldn't have been created in the first place.
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So for Pound of Flesh, it's either 0% HP bonus , or 50% bonus HP?... 30% bonus HP from health globe would be totally useless?
And what if I get extra 2 or 3 points at the end, after I have maximize all the passive skills I really want?
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Yes I am well aware of what you are talking about. I am actually one of the people who never complained about loss of skill point system in D3 because it's actually exhausting to figure out the optimal skill points to put in skills, especially the active ones. And the balance will become a big issue.
That's why I only mention putting points in PASSIVE SKILLS, but not ACTIVE SKILLS. Seriously sometimes I feel Pound of Flesh can be useful, but compared to other barbarian's Passive Skills, no way anyone is going to pick it. But what if we could just put a few points in that skill. Personally I feel the Passive Skills in D3 now is imbalanced anyway, and adding skill point system in there may help to improve the balancing issue. (e.g. more skill points are needed to reach the level cap for damage/defense improving passive skills.)
And about Legacy items... I just thought it can be salvaged in another way so you get reward for ever finding these legacy items before...
And about adventure mode.. people are farming for keys and rift keys anyway, I am just thinking giving some more rewards for doing those... and those rewards can be found in story mode as well... it's an incentive... but you can totally skip it...
And No, I will not move to other games... I love Diablo the way it is actually... I am just fantasizing how it can be improved, but thanks for your input..
I have actually written a detailed explanation in the official D3 forum... I will see what response I get from there..
if people are not irritated by it, I will post it here and we can all have our D3 improvement fantasy orgy.
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I don't see why not. That's how skill worked back in D2, you don't get to maximize all the skills you want because there is not enough skill points. And there are some skills where partial bonus is more enough.
So take Pound of Flesh as an example...
Right now the skill gives you 50% additional health from globe... well, personally I don't feel I need that much, so I can maybe just put 3 points in there so I gain only 30% bonus and I can put these 2 skill points in other passive skills..
And if one day Bliz really goes nuts and decides to implement this system... they can easily make some modification to this passive skill to make partial bonus more tempting.. for example...
the new Pond of Flesh can be like... "You gain 10/20/30/40/50% additional health and 2/4/6/8/10 Fury from health globe"...
So for some barb, it may be useful to just have 3 points in this skill...
And about these items.. I actually have come up with new ideas that can help putting passive skill bonus on items while also making good use of legacy items and legendary items with crappy affix that's beyond hopeless even with the help of enchantress... and also maybe encouraging people to play more adventure mode or even story mode...
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Yeah, that's actually part of a reason I would like to see this implanted, because we will get to have some fun passive abilities that people can actually put skill points in, instead of wasting one whole passive skill slots.
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No, it doesn't have to be limited to be only four passives. You can put points in any passive skills. 3 points here, 4 points there. And you can get extra points from item attribute, possibly going over max points you can put in a passive skill, just like Diablo 2.
So for example if you put 5 points, which is the max points you can put in that skill, in Pound of Flesh, you will gain 50% additional life from health globe. But one of your item has +1 to Pound of Flesh, so your Pound of Flesh will be 6/5, and you gain 60% instead.
And if you feel like you only need additional 20% from health globe, then you can just put 2 points in that skill.
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Oh they even removed point system in WoW? Wow...(no puns intended, lol)
I think skill points in passive abilities won't make the game too complicated. It would satisfy the hardcore players who wants to optimize their passive bonuses, and please casual players like me who just like to see the less popular passive being utilized. I mean I have never seen Barb using Pound of Flesh as passive..... but with skill point system people might just start putting points in it.
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Yeah I understand their stance. And I do like the way the game system is headed, no complaints from me. Just that putting skill points in passive skill will much simpler in terms of balance than putting skill points in active skills, but I feel can help build character diversity even more, rather than totally relying on RNG-dependent items. I just feels that sometimes I just need a partial bonus of certain passives or a stronger version of certain passives, and by using skill point system this can be done.
But I understand many people have talked about this, and bliz's stance is pretty firm. Just sharing my thoughts on how the game can be improved.
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I am pretty sure many people, especially Diablo 2 lovers have already thought about this. I think this can be an interesting idea. I mean it will probably be similar to WoW talent system (I don't play WoW, but last time I saw it, I remember seeing putting skill points in talents, which is like passive abilities).
I mean putting skill points in passive skills would help to satisfy those who would like to build their characters using skill points and possibly allow more usage for gold and normal gem.
So take Barbarian's first three passive skills for instance.
Pound of Flesh - Gain 50% additional life from health globe. (Current skill effect)
it can become something like this:
*new* Pound of Flesh (0/5) - Gain X% additional life from health globe. (or Maybe even add more bonus like increase pickup range.)
Ruthless - You deal 40% additional damage to enemies below 30% health. (Current Skill effect)
*new* Ruthless (0/8) - You deal X% additional damage to enemies below Y% health.
Nerve of Steel - Fatal damage instead reduces you to 15% Life. For 3 seconds afterward, you take 95% reduced damage and are immune to all control-impairing effects. This effect may occur once every 60 seconds.
*new* Nerve of Steel (0/6) - Fatal damage instead reduces you to X% Life. For 3 seconds afterward, you take Y% reduced damage and are immune to all control-impairing effects. This effect may occur once every Z seconds.
So these are just examples and the numbers can be easily worked on and balanced.
And how can this help make use of gold and gems?
Well, for starter, it will cost gold to relocate skill points. We'll just need an NPC to do that.
And then there's the issue with items which will provide bonus to the passive skills. I am sure a lot of people has suffered the agonizing pain after they introduced Ancient version of legendary items, making a lot of your old item obsolete, especially weapons, so a possible solution to avoid this is to allow this NPC to be able to add or change the passive skill bonus on your item.
So each item will now drop with a chance to have an extra attribute that is neither primary or secondary, and that attribute will provide bonus to passive skills. For those items which do not have the extra attribute, you can pay extra gold and gems to NPC to add a random passive skill bonus to your item. And if you are not satisfied with the current passive skill bonus, you can also pay to change it. Yes, it works almost exactly the same as enchanting, so why not include the bonus as a secondary or primary attribute, which will be changeable by the enchantress.
Well, for one, I think there will not be enough attribute slots on items. I mean a lot of people are already getting rid of attribute like vitality for the items, and now they have to get rid of even other attributes for passive skill bonus? I know Bliz wants us to struggle a bit on choosing our own optimal items, and I do actually like it, but I think adding another must-have attribute into the pool will make a lot of weep. (I would.)
And about Hellfire amulet.... the new Hellfire amulet should always comes with a passive skill bonus, and a very good one that cannot be changed by the NPC (just like some of the legendary items' non-unique attribute, eg. Utar's Roar's +% cold damage, non-unique yet unchangeable by the enchantress) .... but then I am not sure what to do with all the Hellfire amulets we have already got... make it available to exchange an old one with a new one?
So that's my take on passive skills. At least that's giving the players a bit more freedom on building their characters rather than relying 90% on RNG.