Anyways, let me state my opinion for the record. Wizard will never be a melee viable class if playing solo in Inferno. How do I know this.....because wizard doesn't have a skill that grants DR reduction to the enemy. Every class except wizard has one or two. And yes DH's passive that gives damage reduction (to the enemy) is crap-tastic. So to me, a melee Wizard will have to be played with Monk/WD/Barb, preferable all three for some serious DR debuffing.
By viable I mean competitive. I fully believe that at this point there's no information that shoots the melee wizard out of water.
You may insist that defensively there is no comparison but I think the majority agrees that the differences are not that great (and have been shown in this thread). Even more so, it's been shown that the despite falling behind a bit in defense, the melee wizard will put out more damage which I feel will offset the slight disadvantage they have on the defense front.
Until the game comes out and we can see for ourselves, I don't really think there's much else to talk about concerning this topic.
I don't think anyone is claiming that the wizard will survive better than the melee classes. They're just saying that it's very comparable and because of that, there's a good chance that the melee wizard will be viable... even in the later difficulties.
Good point about ranged damage being the 1 thing melee wizard's will have trouble with. It may be important to get Slow Time which will allow you to avoid ranged attacks. Ranged attacks always hurt a lot in D2, it's going to be even worse for the D3 wizard... ouch.
both the barbarian and the monk have the luxury of their primary stats reducing all, as in both physical and magical, incoming damage while intelligence only reduces magical.
Actually if you look at your stat sheet there is a physical resistance... and it's increased by + resistances.
I personally don't understand the "melee wizard" bit.
What's the point of trying to tie yourself down to skills that are short or melee range only, when you can nuke from afar?
It seems logical that people wanting to melee effectively will make chars specifically for that purpose.
To each their own.
The point, at least for me, is that the melee builds do more damage. Blizzard wasn't stupid when they created the melee skills. They created a risk/reward system. It's risky to be in melee range but you'll do more damage if you can survive.
For example,
Arcane Orb - Tap the Source costs 20 AP and does 175 Damage
Ray of Frost - Sleet Storm costs 20 AP and does 215 Damage
They seem to have about the same AoE range from the beta so the only difference is that one is centered around you and the other is ranged.
Also, some people find the play style of being on the front lines more exciting compared to kiting.
- Even if you're correct about the damage calculations, that wouldn't account for the massive amount of damage the wizard puts out compared to the monk. (also, the wizard +20% was not added correctly as well then)
-Deadly reach rune is not a normal line AoE, it's much much wider. (but yes it's awesome range in beta)
-Good point on Blur... this gives the monk the advantage on ranged but a wash for melee.
-Frost Nova Freezes which is the same thing as a stun. The enemies do not keep attacking.
-How does the monk have 33% dodge? you get 15% for 3 seconds after you use the mantra... that's neglectable and not even worth including though.
-Very good point on the -25% debuff. This of course depends on the proc chance but this does help the -25% damage debuff a lot.
I'll change Survivability to "Monk Advantage if solo, slight monk nod if grouped (due to aura's and debuffs being shared)"
The monk has the advantage in survivability but to say that they aren't comparable isn't right. It will be interesting to see how the whole melee wizard thing pans out but I wouldn't be surprised if they're viable... especially in a group setting where they won't be taking all the hits. I think Blizzard did a great job at making options for casters.
BTW... cool looking monk build.
Didn't know that about Frost Nova even tho I played beta with Wizard about 20 hours, lol
Monk gains 33% dodge with this build: http://us.battle.net...bZXh!ZdU!cbcbbc (seems as if monk builder is bugged, guardians path has a picture, but once you click it you get another passive, oh well, here is correct). Now you see from where i get 33% dodge. That 100 spirit boost beforehand made zero sense, sorry about the misunderstanding. Thx for the compliment btw.
Anyway, as I said before: I love the idea of a melee Wizard and (especially) a melee DH, but they will never be exactly as good as the other melee classes since they have to catch up in defensive stats. When they are forced to do that, they'll lack either mobility or damage.
I will play D3 for fun and I will most likely spend hours and hours playing range barbarian and melee DH, but it's still such a shame that one cannot play these classes without being slightly gimped. Especially with a game that has RMAH. One guy shouldn't have better chances of making money just because the game is unbalanced.
I'm willing to bet that the melee wizard will do pretty well in groups but if you try soloing with a melee wizard it'll be a bit hard.
It's possible that we just need to experience the content and something will work surprisingly well. Mirror Images sound good on paper but are they actually helpful in practice? Will the monsters actually attack them? If they work well, an illusionist mirror image build could survive pretty well.
-Blur is on MELEE damage only. It doesn't work on any type of range what so ever. The monk reduction is DR is on everything. They do NOT cancel eachother out. Monk comes out way on top.
-Frost nova does not stun, it just causes enemies not to move. That is good for range wizards, for a melee wizard it is ok.
-You will sustain archon about 25% of the time. Let's say that's 20% more armor all the time instead. You still do not come out on top on DR.
-Monk build does not have 15% dodge, it has 33%. That's a HUGE difference.
- -25% damage on enemies will be activated about 100% of the time: The tail kick is a AOE similar to disintegrate and dodge mantra will cause ALL enemies around me to burn (take damage). The -25% damage will therefore work when needed. If there are many enemies, I need it. If there are many enemies, there are many hits. If there are many hits, there are many dodges. If there are many dodges, they all get -25% damage. If there are many enemies, i dodge and causes damage. If there are few enemies, I will hit them all with combo, dashing strike or kicks. It's basicly always on.
- Even if you're correct about the damage calculations, that wouldn't account for the massive amount of damage the wizard puts out compared to the monk. (also, the wizard +20% was not added correctly as well then)
-Deadly reach rune is not a normal line AoE, it's much much wider. (but yes it's awesome range in beta)
-Good point on Blur... this gives the monk the advantage on ranged but a wash for melee.
-Frost Nova Freezes which is the same thing as a stun. The enemies do not keep attacking.
-How does the monk have 33% dodge? you get 15% for 3 seconds after you use the mantra... that's neglectable and not even worth including though.
-Very good point on the -25% debuff. This of course depends on the proc chance but this does help the -25% damage debuff a lot.
I'll change Survivability to "Monk Advantage if solo, slight monk nod if grouped (due to aura's and debuffs being shared)"
The monk has the advantage in survivability but to say that they aren't comparable isn't right. It will be interesting to see how the whole melee wizard thing pans out but I wouldn't be surprised if they're viable... especially in a group setting where they won't be taking all the hits. I think Blizzard did a great job at making options for casters.
lol... please stop saying your opinion instead of actually comparing the numbers. It's not easy to compare build vs build... but let's give it a shot beyond just saying x is better! Keep in mind, it's difficult to calculate dps for lines and close range aoe. I am assuming a line spell for a melee class won't be as good as a close range radius AoE (which is a safe assumption). The exact number of monsters each skill will hit will vary of course.
Wizard Damage
235% Spammable AoE about 10 yards (which will hit 3-4 monsters on average to be 705-940 DPS.. 822 avg)
337% avg from spamming Spectral Blades (Assuming it will hit 2-3 on avg)
Not enough information about Archon to make an estimation, I'll completely disregard this even though it's a large increase of DPS when it's active.
Lets go with an uptime of 3/4 Sleet Storm 1/4 Spectral Blades.
(882+882+882+337) / 4 =745 DPS
vs. Monk Damage
240% + 33% if buffs active (line AoE Spender (aka, once every 5 attacks) The problem is... it's a melee character doing a line aoe. Line aoe's are great for ranged classes because you can line it up. Line AoE's are so-so for melee because the monsters are surrounding you so that they can attack. They aren't lined up very nicely due to this and you often only hit 2-4 monsters (sometimes more though). I'll even give the benefit of the doubt here and say you have your buffs active to make it (546-1092 DPS.. 819 avg)
When you're generating spirit
140 + 33 = 173 DPS for 2 hits
250 + 33 = 283 hitting about 2-4 monsters = 566-1132DPS (849 DPS avg)
For ease of use... we'll see 6 normal attacks and then a tail kick
173+173+849+173+173+849+819 = 3209/7=458DPS
Damage Conclusion
458 vs the 745DPS avg from the Wizard. I'm not counting the dodge mantra because it says "chance" to do 35% damage so I'm not sure which numbers to use. It wouldn't add much more than 10-20 DPS though.
Surviveability
Ward + Blades vs Heal = slight nod to Monk (Heal comes out to be 413 health/sec if you spam it exactly on cooldown (which is an unreasonable assumption) + it spends spirit). Ward is 310 and it's difficult to say how much blades will be but I doubt it'll be 100 health/sec.
20% DR from Blur 65% Increased armor from energy Shield = How much DR would this be? I honestly have no idea. It depends on armor scaling which we don't know much. Would it be safe to say 10% DR? Frost Nova to stun for 3 seconds every 9 seconds (a 33% uptime) 40% increased armor when Archon is cast 30% DR after a teleport for 4 seconds
vs
30% DR
15% dodge
25% less damage for some enemies (very hard to calculate). You have 0 radius AoE skills so only enemies in a line will be doing 25% less damage. On average, you could say 3 enemies are attacking your front arc and only 1 of them has the debuff.
The DR cancel each other out. I'm going to say the situational surviveability cancel each other out as well (teleport and Archon vs 25% less damage debuff). I'm sure you'll claim that you can somehow debuff every enemy even though all of your skills are straight line or single target... it's a non factor.
So really it comes down to 15% dodge vs 33% uptime stun. 33% of the time taking no damage or 15%... which one is higher?
Survivability Conclusion
Very slight nod to Monk due to healing
Also, a lot of those abilities help the entire group (aka would help the wizard too) and won't stack with other classes debuffs (the 25% less damage debuff).
If you want to say you are more valuable because you help out the group more, I agree 100%. I think you are discounting the wizard too much if you say he'll do crappy damage and won't be able to survive though.
Disclaimer... the above math doesn't prove anything, there are tons of assumptions... it's a heck of a lot better than just throwing out opinions though and I think at the very least it proves that you'll put out respectable.
If you disagree with these, I can rerun the numbers.
Assumptions:
2-3 monsters hit with spec blade
3-4 monsters hit with radius AoE (sleet storm)
2-3 monsters hit with line AoE cast by melee class
75% sleet storm uptime with absorption energy armor rune
65% increased armor = 10% DR
You are overlooking facts. You've made a nice build, sure. A barb can have a nice build such as yours AND 30% damage reduction. You will, no matter what, never catch up. You can make a melee wizard which might be able to beat Inferno, you will, however, never make a melee Wizard who can compare herself to the barbarian or the monk. That's silly. Shouldn't be that way.
EDIT: Ray of Frost damage i is per second. You normally cast ~1,6 spells per second otherwise, so it deals less damage than signature spells. It does slow tho.
Ray of Frost is based on weapon speed (not per second) just like all abilities.
Can you show me a monk/barb build to compare side by side to prove your point? It's meaningless to just state that Barb/Monk will do more damage because they start ahead of the curve in DR.
I think talking in absolutes at this point is pretty silly. The game is not even out and we already have people saying what will and will not be viable. You don't know, so stop pretending like you do.
Here's my personal melee build and it's quite high on damage. I can spam Ray of Frost most of the time for 235% (area effect) damage per second. That isn't "crappy" damage.
Also, when the going gets rough, I can hit Archon which will not only blow everything up for 450% area effect damage, but I will also get some massive area effect spells and increase my armor by another 40%
Here's the abilities that help the wizard survive from my build:
20% DR from Blur
65% Increased armor from energy Shield
310 life regen per sec from ward
Frost Nova to stun for 3 seconds every 9 seconds (a 33% uptime)
40% increased armor when Archon is cast
30% DR after a teleport for 4 seconds
Chance to heal from Spectral Blades
To me, that sounds pretty comparable to a monk/Barb. Also, once we actually EXPERIENCE the game and how difficult it is, the build can be tweaked to make it even better. Currently it's at a max survivability state but I could easily change a few things to increase the damage a lot. Magic weapon could add +12% more damage. I could add AP regen to my signature to increase the uptime for Ray of Frost. It all depends on how hard everything is.
Even at 235% damage, that's pretty good for a spammable spell.... even loaded up on Defensive abilities the Wizard won't be doing crap damage.
Considering how all of the short range wizard spells do more damage than the longer range ones, if the wizard can stay alive in Inferno with the right build, it will likely be an optimal build. Only time will tell but there's enough defensive abilities to make it possible imo.
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This is untrue.
Arcane Torrent - Arcane Mines - 30% attack speed debuff.
You may insist that defensively there is no comparison but I think the majority agrees that the differences are not that great (and have been shown in this thread). Even more so, it's been shown that the despite falling behind a bit in defense, the melee wizard will put out more damage which I feel will offset the slight disadvantage they have on the defense front.
Until the game comes out and we can see for ourselves, I don't really think there's much else to talk about concerning this topic.
Actually if you look at your stat sheet there is a physical resistance... and it's increased by + resistances.
The point, at least for me, is that the melee builds do more damage. Blizzard wasn't stupid when they created the melee skills. They created a risk/reward system. It's risky to be in melee range but you'll do more damage if you can survive.
For example,
Arcane Orb - Tap the Source costs 20 AP and does 175 Damage
Ray of Frost - Sleet Storm costs 20 AP and does 215 Damage
They seem to have about the same AoE range from the beta so the only difference is that one is centered around you and the other is ranged.
Also, some people find the play style of being on the front lines more exciting compared to kiting.
I'm willing to bet that the melee wizard will do pretty well in groups but if you try soloing with a melee wizard it'll be a bit hard.
It's possible that we just need to experience the content and something will work surprisingly well. Mirror Images sound good on paper but are they actually helpful in practice? Will the monsters actually attack them? If they work well, an illusionist mirror image build could survive pretty well.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#bZmOPX!dfa!YYaaaa could be really good. It lacks mobility though(it would probably be better to have teleport instead of Archon but I think it would be so boring to just spam sleet storm non stop).
- Even if you're correct about the damage calculations, that wouldn't account for the massive amount of damage the wizard puts out compared to the monk. (also, the wizard +20% was not added correctly as well then)
-Deadly reach rune is not a normal line AoE, it's much much wider. (but yes it's awesome range in beta)
-Good point on Blur... this gives the monk the advantage on ranged but a wash for melee.
-Frost Nova Freezes which is the same thing as a stun. The enemies do not keep attacking.
-How does the monk have 33% dodge? you get 15% for 3 seconds after you use the mantra... that's neglectable and not even worth including though.
-Very good point on the -25% debuff. This of course depends on the proc chance but this does help the -25% damage debuff a lot.
I'll change Survivability to "Monk Advantage if solo, slight monk nod if grouped (due to aura's and debuffs being shared)"
The monk has the advantage in survivability but to say that they aren't comparable isn't right. It will be interesting to see how the whole melee wizard thing pans out but I wouldn't be surprised if they're viable... especially in a group setting where they won't be taking all the hits. I think Blizzard did a great job at making options for casters.
BTW... cool looking monk build.
Wizard Damage
235% Spammable AoE about 10 yards (which will hit 3-4 monsters on average to be 705-940 DPS.. 822 avg)
337% avg from spamming Spectral Blades (Assuming it will hit 2-3 on avg)
Not enough information about Archon to make an estimation, I'll completely disregard this even though it's a large increase of DPS when it's active.
Lets go with an uptime of 3/4 Sleet Storm 1/4 Spectral Blades.
(882+882+882+337) / 4 =745 DPS
vs.
Monk Damage
240% + 33% if buffs active (line AoE Spender (aka, once every 5 attacks) The problem is... it's a melee character doing a line aoe. Line aoe's are great for ranged classes because you can line it up. Line AoE's are so-so for melee because the monsters are surrounding you so that they can attack. They aren't lined up very nicely due to this and you often only hit 2-4 monsters (sometimes more though). I'll even give the benefit of the doubt here and say you have your buffs active to make it (546-1092 DPS.. 819 avg)
When you're generating spirit
140 + 33 = 173 DPS for 2 hits
250 + 33 = 283 hitting about 2-4 monsters = 566-1132DPS (849 DPS avg)
For ease of use... we'll see 6 normal attacks and then a tail kick
173+173+849+173+173+849+819 = 3209/7=458DPS
Damage Conclusion
458 vs the 745DPS avg from the Wizard. I'm not counting the dodge mantra because it says "chance" to do 35% damage so I'm not sure which numbers to use. It wouldn't add much more than 10-20 DPS though.
Surviveability
Ward + Blades vs Heal = slight nod to Monk (Heal comes out to be 413 health/sec if you spam it exactly on cooldown (which is an unreasonable assumption) + it spends spirit). Ward is 310 and it's difficult to say how much blades will be but I doubt it'll be 100 health/sec.
20% DR from Blur
65% Increased armor from energy Shield = How much DR would this be? I honestly have no idea. It depends on armor scaling which we don't know much. Would it be safe to say 10% DR?
Frost Nova to stun for 3 seconds every 9 seconds (a 33% uptime)
40% increased armor when Archon is cast
30% DR after a teleport for 4 seconds
vs
30% DR
15% dodge
25% less damage for some enemies (very hard to calculate). You have 0 radius AoE skills so only enemies in a line will be doing 25% less damage. On average, you could say 3 enemies are attacking your front arc and only 1 of them has the debuff.
The DR cancel each other out. I'm going to say the situational surviveability cancel each other out as well (teleport and Archon vs 25% less damage debuff). I'm sure you'll claim that you can somehow debuff every enemy even though all of your skills are straight line or single target... it's a non factor.
So really it comes down to 15% dodge vs 33% uptime stun. 33% of the time taking no damage or 15%... which one is higher?
Survivability Conclusion
Very slight nod to Monk due to healing
Also, a lot of those abilities help the entire group (aka would help the wizard too) and won't stack with other classes debuffs (the 25% less damage debuff).
If you want to say you are more valuable because you help out the group more, I agree 100%. I think you are discounting the wizard too much if you say he'll do crappy damage and won't be able to survive though.
Disclaimer... the above math doesn't prove anything, there are tons of assumptions... it's a heck of a lot better than just throwing out opinions though and I think at the very least it proves that you'll put out respectable.
If you disagree with these, I can rerun the numbers.
Assumptions:
2-3 monsters hit with spec blade
3-4 monsters hit with radius AoE (sleet storm)
2-3 monsters hit with line AoE cast by melee class
75% sleet storm uptime with absorption energy armor rune
65% increased armor = 10% DR
Ray of Frost is based on weapon speed (not per second) just like all abilities.
Can you show me a monk/barb build to compare side by side to prove your point? It's meaningless to just state that Barb/Monk will do more damage because they start ahead of the curve in DR.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#WZmOQY!Wfa!YaaaaZ
Here's my personal melee build and it's quite high on damage. I can spam Ray of Frost most of the time for 235% (area effect) damage per second. That isn't "crappy" damage.
Also, when the going gets rough, I can hit Archon which will not only blow everything up for 450% area effect damage, but I will also get some massive area effect spells and increase my armor by another 40%
Here's the abilities that help the wizard survive from my build:
20% DR from Blur
65% Increased armor from energy Shield
310 life regen per sec from ward
Frost Nova to stun for 3 seconds every 9 seconds (a 33% uptime)
40% increased armor when Archon is cast
30% DR after a teleport for 4 seconds
Chance to heal from Spectral Blades
To me, that sounds pretty comparable to a monk/Barb. Also, once we actually EXPERIENCE the game and how difficult it is, the build can be tweaked to make it even better. Currently it's at a max survivability state but I could easily change a few things to increase the damage a lot. Magic weapon could add +12% more damage. I could add AP regen to my signature to increase the uptime for Ray of Frost. It all depends on how hard everything is.
Even at 235% damage, that's pretty good for a spammable spell.... even loaded up on Defensive abilities the Wizard won't be doing crap damage.