Can't we just call it off and say that the Witch Doctor is different enough so there's a slim chance for the Necromancer to make an appearance in future expanion packs
Thats what I said.
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Rofl, even if Necro never happens in Diablo 3, the WD ≠ Necro, and it never will. Doesn't mean I won't be playing one though XD. After my ranged guy that is...
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And I don't think the necromancer will comeback just because the game can't have more then 2/5 spellcasters of the total classes. If instead of the WD we had a Priest class that was a suportive healer i would still know for sure that the necro will not come back just because this priest would be a spellcaster.
I don't think there is a doubt in any bodies' mind that we will not be seeing the Necro from the start. Expansion, however, is a different story. Lets keep dreaming.
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Meh, we will just have to see in the end. If he doesn't come back, personally I won't be offended. I do like the WD a lot, however to see the Necro return in a new and innovative way would probably kick ass considering its coming from Blizzard.
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Though the Witch Doctor will have similar abilities to the Necromancer, Wilson didn't want to "have to live by any Necromancer rules." One of the big differences between the two classes is how damage is actually dealt.
"If [the Necromancer] dealt damage, it was through corpses laying around or through his pets," he said. "The Witch Doctor, his pets are a little more transient. If you watch the gameplay video, you really notice his pets come and go like crazy. There's a wall of zombies that go away fairly quickly or pets that just kind of blow up willy-nilly. That was intentional -- to try and make him different than the Necromancer."
He says here that they have been taking steps to keep room for the Necro already. If the Devs are mad about the class decisions and they decided to build the WD to leave room for the Necro, wouldn't that kinda register to you that they might just happen to want to bring back the Necro, along with some of the other classes? There really is no limit to how many characters they can bring back if they choose, but honestly onlly the Druid, Assassin, Pally, and Necro would make sense at this point.
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Alright dude, this has gone one too long. I know exactly what Jay Wilson said, I have watched the vids over and over and over, and I have ready many of the interviews.
Read this entire page, it speaks for itself what I have been trying to tell you for the last 2 days. MTV may specifically phrase it as "WD replaces Necro", but Jay Wilson seems to debunk that theory. At this point its only replacing the Necro in the initial game, they are definitely making room for a Necro come-back if they choose to do so. If anyone can pull it off the way it should be done, Blizzard will be the ones to do it. There has been much controversy about the class choices, even within the Blizzard team itself. I am going to have to say that much of the team would probably like to see him return in the future.
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I do see where your going in a way, but I am under the assumption that if Blizzard does bring Necro back, they will do it right. It could only be assumed since they have already mentioned it as if it might even be part of their grand scheme, or at least a vague idea in place toward that grand scheme.
Blizzard has very rarely let me down, WoW was about to the only case, and I can't blame it on that really. They made a really good MMO (imho), I just personally hate how most MMOs play anyhow. Bummed me that we won't be seeing WC4 any time soon too. Otherwise, I am very happy with Blizzard. Have been since the first Diablo. The only games of theirs I have yet to play is Warcraft 1&2 and their original arcade games. I really like what they have done with Diablo 3 so far, and I think once we see that grand scheme, it will all make perfect since.
But I will say this as well, if they do bring the Necro back (which I personally predict will be the case unless they come up with something way better), it will be more than just for the fans. Necro was a fun character, and they would try to recapture that in a new way to make it something for new players (to the Diablo series) as well. On top of that, the whole Sin War Trilogy really made the Necromancer class (in general, as opposed to the particular hero of D2) an icon in the world of Sanctuary through lore. At this point, I have no doubt in my mind that we will at least see some Necro NPCs, and may actually get a chance to wield their mighty powers once more.
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While he may not have had a ton of debuffs, the Druid actually had a lot of summons and magic. Druid only had one CC debuff, which was Shock Wave, so idk if that really counts so much. But then again Witch Doctor only has two debuffs, which are pretty much CC, just like the Werebear stun, so we could rule that one in. He did however have summons and tons of magic. What does that tell me? It tells me that an Elemental or Summoning focused Druid could play similar to a Bone/Poison or Summoning focused Necro (respectively), with the only change being artistic design and some numbers. Nobody complained that they could not coincide did they? All because why? One tree was entirely different. In gameplay mechanics they were fairly similar, but through art, lore, and a completely different third tree they remained completely different entities.
Now, comparing the D2 Necro to the D3 Witch Doctor is like comparing apples to oranges, especially with your partially incorrect list up there (which didn't even mention Druid or Assassin). The first big thing you need to realize, the Necro had a whole tree dedicated to debuffs (Curses). They weren't just CC debuffs, we are talking a whole tree of stat and utility debuffs alike.
The only two debuffs WD even has are taken from the Necro, I will admit, but he doesn't have a debuff tree. His debuff spells fit in with other trees. Instead of a debuff tree, he has 3 distinctly different trees that do not focus exactly on the same things Necro did, rather they focus on different types of magic that a tribal WD would focus. Were they to implement a Necromancer using the same exact trees (which I doubt, as we are comparing apples to oranges here), you would have a tree focusing specifically on summons, one specifically on spells, and one specifically on debuffs. There really is a difference, even when you do "take a look at the larger picture".
Now I don't know about you, but two debuffs, one similar spell, and the ability to summon one creature (so far) does not tell me that WD is replacing the Necro. It does not at all tell me that these characters cannot coincide. It does not tell me that a WD will feel remotely similar in play to the Necro (other than the fact that they are both casters with summons). It also does not tell me that a new Necromancer could not reinvent the Necromancer concept into something even better and more innovative than before while keeping a different feel from the Witch Doctor.
The problem I have is that you are basing these assumptions off of the fact that the D3 WD and the D2 Necro currently share 2 abilities, have a similar spell (Zombie Wall vs. Bone Wall) , and the fact they are casters who choose a darker sect of magic (through art and lore). Not only that, you are suggesting that since they are so similar, Blizzard shouldn't even bother to implement one of the funnest Diablo classes every created? The Necromancer has been voted the most popular D2 class ever made, and even many Bliz devs themselves share this love. Blizzard has already suggested that they are making the WD feel different so that a Necro could easily make a come back in an expansion, which I personally would be all in favor of, as I too loved the Necro.
Am I saying these two classes aren't similar? No, I never said that. Do we know they will even feel close to the same if/when they both show up side by side? No, we don't know that either. All I am saying is that I have a good feeling that Necromancer isn't down for the count. Blizz has mentioned it themselves.
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As I have previously mentioned, I tend to agree with Italofoca on this one, and I am glad we could hear something from someone who actually played the D3 demo.
They look way different, their direct combat skills are completely different, and their lore is obviously way different. The only thing keeping them closely similar is their two or three similar spells, their ability to summon undead (which so far have been very different in style), and their architype as a dark magic user (even though they use two completely different sects of dark magic lorically).
Characters aren't just about looks and spells either, they are about the way they feel. Though I have not played WD myself, it appears as though it would feel MUCH different than a Necro in play (as Italofoca tells us his friend has confirmed). For all we know a D3 expansion Necro may feel different than the D2 Necro on its own, thus separating the feel of the classes even farther.
Its all speculation at this point, but if you seriously listen to the way they have talked about Necro in the Blizzcon 08 vids, they really sound like Necro has a good shot at an expansion return.
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Don't get me wrong, I never meant to point a finger out and say any particular person was ignorant, especially not for their particular opinion. Everybody has a right to theirs, but if someone tries to lay out what appears to be attempts at fact that are contradictory to something I know, I'm going to debunk it.
I really cannot agree with the statement "Witch Doctor is to Necromancer as Wizard is to Sorceress". Take a look at all the skills that Sorceress and Wizard (respectively) have in common so far: Hydra, Chain Lightning/Electrocute, Frost Nova, and Blizzard. That is 5 skills already in place that are practically identical (if that term can be used when comparing D2 technology to D3).
On the other hand, when you compare the Necromancer to the Witch Doctor, you only get 2 nearly identical skills (respectively): Terror/Horrify and Confuse/Mass Confusion. Other skills are slightly similar in feel, such as summonings and Wall of Bone/Wall of Zombies, however no summon so far are remotely similar other than the fact that they all appear undead. Many WD skills feel very different despite the fact that they all seem related to black magic. In fact, with light on Turmobil's post, their methods of dark magic are very different. Necromancer relates to his name, he uses Necromancy. The Witch Doctor uses a very different brand of dark magic: Tribal Voodoo. To be honest though, as far as similar skills, we don't even have enough of the WD skills to know how close the two classes will really be. If we wanted to get even more technical, we don't even know if half of the existing skills will make it into final production.
Honestly the thing that irks me the most is that many people can't possibly fathom the Necro ever existing with the WD in play, or think they would be too much alike. As I mentioned before, Jay Wilson has made it clear that the WD is intentionally being developed in a way that allows them to coincide freely.
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You guys fail to amaze me. Here comes my two cents.
First thing is first, the WD is not Necro 2.0. First off, the necro didn't have half of the crazy spells the WD has, such as Skull of Flame, Firebats, Plague of Toads, etc. This whole Necro = WD idea is based on individual ignorance passed around as theory, and all these sheep just seem to follow. Your basis of them being too similar is that they BOTH use a form of black magic, they both summon something, and that stupid wall of zombies skill (and for all we know that might not make it into final production for that very reason).
The big problem is, you cease to realize that they are truly very different. Necro had a lot to do with Bones and Necromancy. He summoned skellys and ressurected fallen creatures to do his bidding. His spells were mostly all some sort of bone or poison attack. He was also the leading Debuff class.
So far, Witch Doctor hardly has a debuff other than Mass Confusion and Horrify, which are more like offensive and time buying spells as opposed to debuffs. Also, where Necro focuses on direct bone and poison spell, the Witch Doctor focuses on very indirect and somewhat mundane magic at times. He uses a lot of Fire techniques, something unheard of to the entirely black magic Necro.
To be very honest they would fit just fine side by side, especially if Blizzard updated Necro to be something a little more modernized to fit the Diablo 3 title. They can and honestly may easily be implemented together simultaniously. Blizzard has already stated (in order to calm Necro fans) that they are definately looking toward him as a possible Expansion character, they just don't want him in the opening line up.
And as for this whole " Necro is 120" crap... Even if the Necro was 120, I bet he could still be moving along just fine. Hes a fucking Necro for christ sakes, half the necros from TONS of series turn into an effin Lich. They just don't die of old age from working with the Necromantic arts. This could easily be associated with the game. That, or you know they could just make A NEW NECRO. Its not like there is only one... There are entire sects of these people and we will probably see a few Necro NPCs when DIablo 3 first comes out. There is absolutely nothing stopping them from making a new character (lorically) to fit the same class as our previous well known white haired hero. Plus they would have to make a chick as well, so they might as well.
As you can probably tell, I highly doubt Necro is down for the count just yet. I wish people would have a little fucking faith in the developers for once instead of crying about how "Blizz ruined my Necro with WD". Your points are moot. They can still easily exist together, in fact Jay Wilson has even mentioned that they are making the Witch Doctor in a way that they CAN exist together. Its part of their design plan to leave a very sweet (necro) option open for later expansions if they choose to bring him out. If they are ALREADY planning ahead for this, chances are they won't let that go to waste...
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Thats what I said.
XD, let it go. It either happens or it doesn't. Either way D3 will kill.
I don't think there is a doubt in any bodies' mind that we will not be seeing the Necro from the start. Expansion, however, is a different story. Lets keep dreaming.
He says here that they have been taking steps to keep room for the Necro already. If the Devs are mad about the class decisions and they decided to build the WD to leave room for the Necro, wouldn't that kinda register to you that they might just happen to want to bring back the Necro, along with some of the other classes? There really is no limit to how many characters they can bring back if they choose, but honestly onlly the Druid, Assassin, Pally, and Necro would make sense at this point.
Read this entire page, it speaks for itself what I have been trying to tell you for the last 2 days. MTV may specifically phrase it as "WD replaces Necro", but Jay Wilson seems to debunk that theory. At this point its only replacing the Necro in the initial game, they are definitely making room for a Necro come-back if they choose to do so. If anyone can pull it off the way it should be done, Blizzard will be the ones to do it. There has been much controversy about the class choices, even within the Blizzard team itself. I am going to have to say that much of the team would probably like to see him return in the future.
Blizzard has very rarely let me down, WoW was about to the only case, and I can't blame it on that really. They made a really good MMO (imho), I just personally hate how most MMOs play anyhow. Bummed me that we won't be seeing WC4 any time soon too. Otherwise, I am very happy with Blizzard. Have been since the first Diablo. The only games of theirs I have yet to play is Warcraft 1&2 and their original arcade games. I really like what they have done with Diablo 3 so far, and I think once we see that grand scheme, it will all make perfect since.
But I will say this as well, if they do bring the Necro back (which I personally predict will be the case unless they come up with something way better), it will be more than just for the fans. Necro was a fun character, and they would try to recapture that in a new way to make it something for new players (to the Diablo series) as well. On top of that, the whole Sin War Trilogy really made the Necromancer class (in general, as opposed to the particular hero of D2) an icon in the world of Sanctuary through lore. At this point, I have no doubt in my mind that we will at least see some Necro NPCs, and may actually get a chance to wield their mighty powers once more.
Now, comparing the D2 Necro to the D3 Witch Doctor is like comparing apples to oranges, especially with your partially incorrect list up there (which didn't even mention Druid or Assassin). The first big thing you need to realize, the Necro had a whole tree dedicated to debuffs (Curses). They weren't just CC debuffs, we are talking a whole tree of stat and utility debuffs alike.
The only two debuffs WD even has are taken from the Necro, I will admit, but he doesn't have a debuff tree. His debuff spells fit in with other trees. Instead of a debuff tree, he has 3 distinctly different trees that do not focus exactly on the same things Necro did, rather they focus on different types of magic that a tribal WD would focus. Were they to implement a Necromancer using the same exact trees (which I doubt, as we are comparing apples to oranges here), you would have a tree focusing specifically on summons, one specifically on spells, and one specifically on debuffs. There really is a difference, even when you do "take a look at the larger picture".
Now I don't know about you, but two debuffs, one similar spell, and the ability to summon one creature (so far) does not tell me that WD is replacing the Necro. It does not at all tell me that these characters cannot coincide. It does not tell me that a WD will feel remotely similar in play to the Necro (other than the fact that they are both casters with summons). It also does not tell me that a new Necromancer could not reinvent the Necromancer concept into something even better and more innovative than before while keeping a different feel from the Witch Doctor.
The problem I have is that you are basing these assumptions off of the fact that the D3 WD and the D2 Necro currently share 2 abilities, have a similar spell (Zombie Wall vs. Bone Wall) , and the fact they are casters who choose a darker sect of magic (through art and lore). Not only that, you are suggesting that since they are so similar, Blizzard shouldn't even bother to implement one of the funnest Diablo classes every created? The Necromancer has been voted the most popular D2 class ever made, and even many Bliz devs themselves share this love. Blizzard has already suggested that they are making the WD feel different so that a Necro could easily make a come back in an expansion, which I personally would be all in favor of, as I too loved the Necro.
Am I saying these two classes aren't similar? No, I never said that. Do we know they will even feel close to the same if/when they both show up side by side? No, we don't know that either. All I am saying is that I have a good feeling that Necromancer isn't down for the count. Blizz has mentioned it themselves.
They look way different, their direct combat skills are completely different, and their lore is obviously way different. The only thing keeping them closely similar is their two or three similar spells, their ability to summon undead (which so far have been very different in style), and their architype as a dark magic user (even though they use two completely different sects of dark magic lorically).
Characters aren't just about looks and spells either, they are about the way they feel. Though I have not played WD myself, it appears as though it would feel MUCH different than a Necro in play (as Italofoca tells us his friend has confirmed). For all we know a D3 expansion Necro may feel different than the D2 Necro on its own, thus separating the feel of the classes even farther.
Its all speculation at this point, but if you seriously listen to the way they have talked about Necro in the Blizzcon 08 vids, they really sound like Necro has a good shot at an expansion return.
I really cannot agree with the statement "Witch Doctor is to Necromancer as Wizard is to Sorceress". Take a look at all the skills that Sorceress and Wizard (respectively) have in common so far: Hydra, Chain Lightning/Electrocute, Frost Nova, and Blizzard. That is 5 skills already in place that are practically identical (if that term can be used when comparing D2 technology to D3).
On the other hand, when you compare the Necromancer to the Witch Doctor, you only get 2 nearly identical skills (respectively): Terror/Horrify and Confuse/Mass Confusion. Other skills are slightly similar in feel, such as summonings and Wall of Bone/Wall of Zombies, however no summon so far are remotely similar other than the fact that they all appear undead. Many WD skills feel very different despite the fact that they all seem related to black magic. In fact, with light on Turmobil's post, their methods of dark magic are very different. Necromancer relates to his name, he uses Necromancy. The Witch Doctor uses a very different brand of dark magic: Tribal Voodoo. To be honest though, as far as similar skills, we don't even have enough of the WD skills to know how close the two classes will really be. If we wanted to get even more technical, we don't even know if half of the existing skills will make it into final production.
Honestly the thing that irks me the most is that many people can't possibly fathom the Necro ever existing with the WD in play, or think they would be too much alike. As I mentioned before, Jay Wilson has made it clear that the WD is intentionally being developed in a way that allows them to coincide freely.
First thing is first, the WD is not Necro 2.0. First off, the necro didn't have half of the crazy spells the WD has, such as Skull of Flame, Firebats, Plague of Toads, etc. This whole Necro = WD idea is based on individual ignorance passed around as theory, and all these sheep just seem to follow. Your basis of them being too similar is that they BOTH use a form of black magic, they both summon something, and that stupid wall of zombies skill (and for all we know that might not make it into final production for that very reason).
The big problem is, you cease to realize that they are truly very different. Necro had a lot to do with Bones and Necromancy. He summoned skellys and ressurected fallen creatures to do his bidding. His spells were mostly all some sort of bone or poison attack. He was also the leading Debuff class.
So far, Witch Doctor hardly has a debuff other than Mass Confusion and Horrify, which are more like offensive and time buying spells as opposed to debuffs. Also, where Necro focuses on direct bone and poison spell, the Witch Doctor focuses on very indirect and somewhat mundane magic at times. He uses a lot of Fire techniques, something unheard of to the entirely black magic Necro.
To be very honest they would fit just fine side by side, especially if Blizzard updated Necro to be something a little more modernized to fit the Diablo 3 title. They can and honestly may easily be implemented together simultaniously. Blizzard has already stated (in order to calm Necro fans) that they are definately looking toward him as a possible Expansion character, they just don't want him in the opening line up.
And as for this whole " Necro is 120" crap... Even if the Necro was 120, I bet he could still be moving along just fine. Hes a fucking Necro for christ sakes, half the necros from TONS of series turn into an effin Lich. They just don't die of old age from working with the Necromantic arts. This could easily be associated with the game. That, or you know they could just make A NEW NECRO. Its not like there is only one... There are entire sects of these people and we will probably see a few Necro NPCs when DIablo 3 first comes out. There is absolutely nothing stopping them from making a new character (lorically) to fit the same class as our previous well known white haired hero. Plus they would have to make a chick as well, so they might as well.
As you can probably tell, I highly doubt Necro is down for the count just yet. I wish people would have a little fucking faith in the developers for once instead of crying about how "Blizz ruined my Necro with WD". Your points are moot. They can still easily exist together, in fact Jay Wilson has even mentioned that they are making the Witch Doctor in a way that they CAN exist together. Its part of their design plan to leave a very sweet (necro) option open for later expansions if they choose to bring him out. If they are ALREADY planning ahead for this, chances are they won't let that go to waste...