I think we can all agree that PvPers fall into different types.
Some like to use cheats and hacks and than talk big.
Then there are the ones who duel with honor and respect. I believe these players do not like the cheats just as much as the PvMers.
Now i agree, and cheats/bots ws the very reason for me to quit b.net.
For me respect is o ene the most important things in a PvP game. No matter the situation, respect the person in the other side because this person is a humam being just like you.
Bad manners are much more difficult to deal with in games that requires team play (PvP or PvM). In the moment that your failure can be caused by a ally things get really stressing. For exemple, you will find more bm in wow raids and dungeons then in any other place in the planet.
Quote from "maka" »
i only mentioned the issue of teleport because i get the feeling that people that prefer to PvP in diablo don't want to change the way they play the game. teleport has become so ubiquitous in d2; with the likely removal of enigma and with the cooldowns on teleport, PvP play will already change quite a lot (as will PvE, but i'm not worried about that, because i don't like to rush anyway).
when i played PvM on bnet, i usually played with people i already knew in real-life, so the issue of unfriendliness and general rudeness only manifested in the rare occasions where i PvPed, hence what i said.
but we might be getting a bit off-topic, sorry about that.
Everyone one want change, but for the better ! Rationnaly i've seen a great quality in the BoE system but i also saw a problem and all i'm saying is that this problem should be solved.
no,should i quote you again? you said "many many many". that sounds like, at least, over 50%. So BoE won't be the cataclysm that some are saying it will. that is all.
"many" means youalso need weak items, it don't mean you can replace the high end good ones. It means you need both.
And if they don't put a system to reward pvp players BoE can be extremely burdening even if it only appears in very few items.
unfriendly PvP....you know....people that like to talk smack. i would call that unfriendly.
Sorry but i just think i allways played in a different server then you. I allways found alot of bms both in PvMa nd in PvP. The difference is that i also find friends doing pvp while people on pvm barely talk to each other in open rooms because they are to buzy rushing the game like humam bots.
oh, another thing i would like to introduce into the discussion: with Enigma likely gone, and wiz's teleport having a cooldown, PvP playstyle will forcibly change. so you can't look at PvP in D3 from a D2 perspective. just wanted to throw that out there.
Yeah agree but i dunno what teleports have to with this subject O.o
doesn't matter whether you give a crap about them or not...they exist. you're saying "yeah, the PvP players are all about getting together and duel in a friendly manner......if you don't count the ones that are unfriendly".
then why are you so worried about BoE? those "weaker and easier to find items" probably won't be BoE, so....
Sorry but I do not know those "unfriendly" pvpers. All friends I have in D2 i met then in pvp rooms. Are talking about pk, bms or what ? Explain :/
And i said MANY not ALL occasions. In the end whats matter is have a wide array of items at your disposal and know wich one you should pick. Since it's not viable to have all items in the game muled, the best way to achieve this goal is to aces a good and dynamic market.
And you are just antagonizing the thread between PvMers/support BoE and PvPers/don't support BoE. If you play attention you will find out that i SUPPORT BoE even though i'm a pvp player. I just acknowlge that the people that disagreed with me had a valid point.
D2 PvP is not all about skills or all about gear. It's a combination of different fields that determines what you need.
And the "item" part of the PvP is alot more related to know wich item you should wear then in simple have stronger items. In many many many occasions weaker and easier to find items are better then high end stuff.
In other words, be rich and have tons of gear is important, but it's not everything. In the end what mater is your ability to understand the game's mechanics and based on that make the right choice.
And rewards are natural in any competition. The way it works in wow sux because it turns out into something "farmable". Periodical PvP tournaments with reward for the best players would be sweet to mobilize the competitive people and turns the game more enjoyable for pvpers.
I understand that some people don't like to compete and it's fine. Those people still can open room for dueling, chating and all the the d2 magic.
I'm 100% against match making.
Sure, in the end BoE must exist for a greater good, no questions. With a good sink they can put the ideal drop rates in the game.
I just think they should also add some system to reward PvP players, making easier for then to achieve high end items since tradeing high end stuff will problably alot harder.
I still can't believe some people prefer spending 3 hours trying to trade some gear, instead of spending those 3 hours killing monsters. just a hypothetical question: if in 3 hours of PvE you got decent pieces of gear(to trade or use), would you rather play PvE for those 3 hours or would you rather spend 3 hours on trade channels?
btw, good post, Ferret.
I prefer pass 3 hours on pvp and 10 minutes trading.
?! Anyways you're never gain exp when you PvP... so like d2 you need to PvE....
And what you think if you win a good bet's item when you won the duel ? If you're good enough to win PvP you will find quickly good items even more faster than PvE...
? I never heard that !! I heard they want co-op playing in long terms...
I've posted execly this bet idea And another one based at official tornaments were winners get special items.
I"m not trolling around saying D3 will fail because of BoE. I"m saying they will have to find a way to give enough dynamic to the PvP enviorment because BoE decrease it.
And i've posted a interview with jay wilsom a couple pages ago were say the focus of the game are co-op but they wish to add a competitive enviorment in PvP at long terms.
All this discussion depends on numberless factors that we have no info like drop ratings, how they will handle pvp, what items will or not be BoE, etc...
I know it's wrong to see this whole BoE and PvP thing through D2. In D2 a BoE would -=NEVER=- work. And i'm just curious what changes will happen from D2 to D3 to make this whole BoE/PvP matter viable.
If they want to build another character... guess what? They'll have to grind it out just like you.
Face it, you're a gamer just like the rest of us. We want to kill monsters, you want to kill people. You're not special, neither are we. Stop trying to piss and moan about it.
You're a PvE player and want to kill monsters.
I"m a PvP player and want to kill players. The problem here is that i wll need to play PvE even more then any PvE player existent since i'll have to farm all my gear whenever i have to change it. And in PvP some times had to change my weapon 3 times in one day (i only wish i had a AH for that :/).
Can you imagine the effort of farming THREE high end weapons ? It takes years. And thats what we're talking about, how Blizz will manage to solve this problem? Will PvP not be based uppon changing gear to seek the perfect formula? Will PvP gear easy to get like in WoW?
My point is: there is a paradox between the announced D3 systems, and maybe (problably) we only see it as a paradox because we don't have all the info. But thats the question: what they have in mind to avoid this gameplay shock ? Simply saying that theres no problem, screw PvPers they will have to live with that is rude... If they announced something that would make your PvE experience less enjoyable would you like to hear a bunch of PvP elitist saying "whos cares" ?
Watch the blizzcon 08 design panel. At the very beginning, Jay Wilson says the focus of Dibalo 3 is co-op.
Noone start to build a game like diablo through the PvP. It's not like diablo 3 will be a game like GW or WAR. But it doesn't mean they don't give a shit about PvP, it can be ignored and that D3 will survive 10 years due the PvM public. It doesn't mean D3 are being made to maintain the popularity through PvM, it means the game will be selled on stores under a coop pvm banner. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhz3611u1rQ&feature=PlayList&p=5111E43E41B00677&index=13
At this video Jay Wilsom cleary says that in long terms they want D3 to be a competitive PvP game. Thats what i'm talking about. Long term, years after the release, high end.
D1 high end = PvP.
D2 high end = PvP.
D3 high end = we don't know, but w/o regular wow-like updates it's surely PvP.
And we don't really know how they plan to handle PvP. They can even come up with a e-sportive arena were all players must compete using the same gear like in WoW. I don't like this idea but...
If i could choose i would choose regular and official tornaments and leagues. Players would compete and the winners would gain rare drops and gold as prize. The loosers would have to go back to PvM until they farm enough to handle a PvP season.
Sure it can! Fallout 3, Oblivion, and the original Final Fantasy XI are great examples of games that don't (or didn't) support PvP. In addition, games that focused on PvP on equal or greater terms aren't as popular (or last as long) with the general populace (DAoC, GW, Warhammer, ect. ect.)
Those games are not made to be played online. They are popular because lots of people finished it, not because people are playing it right now.
D3 is a totally different case. It's being made to be played online. It's a game based at trading, collecting items, evolving. How this can be possible if the only challenge are killing AI if this AI are not update fast like in WoW ?
Quote from "maka" »
and to everybody that is against BoE because it will (supposedly) ruin PvP: blizzard representatives have already stated that PvM (in particular, co-op PvM) will be the main focus of D3. you can either accept that, or you can continue to bitch about it.
I'll bitch about it
I would like to read a official quote too because if my mind serves me right they said coop was "at the momment" the best part of the game and they didin't even started to make PvP. I'm no professional but i allways though that PvP was the last thing to be planned in a online game so what focus PvP will have or not noone knows execly.
Maybe you can't, anyways you have to level up characters. If one don't like it they perhaps have to stay in D2.
Every online game nowdays are builded in a way where PvP players don`t need to envolve in PvM. If D3 don`t support this those people will just go back to the good PvP games (GW, WoW, WAR, etc...) and leave D3 behind.
and i just can`t imagine a game like D3 w/o a strong PvP community. Blizz will not take 7-8 years to make a game where people will explore it`s full content in 6 mouths like a ordinary PvM rpg.
I"m a absolutly freaking fun of games with PK and i never ever play as one.
I just love the tension of play my normal PvM routine knowing that any momment this rotine cna be broken by a murderer and i will have to defend myself. The sensation of beign hunted is just great.
But i'm afraid Diablo have a format that don't allow the whole PK fight be a fair one. In every game were plays may choose to become a PK the other side of the commmunity may choose to become a APK (Anti-PK). The fight between those two sides are unbelievable nice to have in a game.
But due the format of Diablo multplayer (room based game, not a open world MMO) it's impossible to a APK community organize. The PKs allways have the advantage of the first strike. But after due their dirty job the APK peple can never haunt him down because he can just leave the game and become untrackable.
In the end PKs in diablo are nothing but a warm to the MP experience because they can allways pick weaker enemies, kill then and leave the game before anyone stronger can make vengeance. And thats just BS.
There will likely be mods for D3. Blizzard said the same thing about d2 about no mods. Blizzard will not support mods and that is fine with the mod making community.
Too late it's confirmed by Blizzard... you can cry !
Hey they will problably not leave that way
We don't even know how D3 PvP will be. With the info we have this problem exist, but we don't have all the info right ?
Theres problably a system that prevents that problem, we just dn't know yet. and i'm curious.
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"In time the hissing of her sanity
Faded out her voice and soiled her name
And like marked pages in a diary
Everything seemed clean that is unstained
The incoherent talk of ordinary days
Why would we really need to live?
Decide what is clear and what's within a haze
What you should take and what to give" - Opeth
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Now i agree, and cheats/bots ws the very reason for me to quit b.net.
For me respect is o ene the most important things in a PvP game. No matter the situation, respect the person in the other side because this person is a humam being just like you.
Bad manners are much more difficult to deal with in games that requires team play (PvP or PvM). In the moment that your failure can be caused by a ally things get really stressing. For exemple, you will find more bm in wow raids and dungeons then in any other place in the planet.
Everyone one want change, but for the better ! Rationnaly i've seen a great quality in the BoE system but i also saw a problem and all i'm saying is that this problem should be solved.
"many" means you also need weak items, it don't mean you can replace the high end good ones. It means you need both.
And if they don't put a system to reward pvp players BoE can be extremely burdening even if it only appears in very few items.
Sorry but i just think i allways played in a different server then you. I allways found alot of bms both in PvMa nd in PvP. The difference is that i also find friends doing pvp while people on pvm barely talk to each other in open rooms because they are to buzy rushing the game like humam bots.
Yeah agree but i dunno what teleports have to with this subject O.o
Sorry but I do not know those "unfriendly" pvpers. All friends I have in D2 i met then in pvp rooms. Are talking about pk, bms or what ? Explain :/
And i said MANY not ALL occasions. In the end whats matter is have a wide array of items at your disposal and know wich one you should pick. Since it's not viable to have all items in the game muled, the best way to achieve this goal is to aces a good and dynamic market.
And you are just antagonizing the thread between PvMers/support BoE and PvPers/don't support BoE. If you play attention you will find out that i SUPPORT BoE even though i'm a pvp player. I just acknowlge that the people that disagreed with me had a valid point.
And the "item" part of the PvP is alot more related to know wich item you should wear then in simple have stronger items. In many many many occasions weaker and easier to find items are better then high end stuff.
In other words, be rich and have tons of gear is important, but it's not everything. In the end what mater is your ability to understand the game's mechanics and based on that make the right choice.
And rewards are natural in any competition. The way it works in wow sux because it turns out into something "farmable". Periodical PvP tournaments with reward for the best players would be sweet to mobilize the competitive people and turns the game more enjoyable for pvpers.
I understand that some people don't like to compete and it's fine. Those people still can open room for dueling, chating and all the the d2 magic.
I'm 100% against match making.
I just think they should also add some system to reward PvP players, making easier for then to achieve high end items since tradeing high end stuff will problably alot harder.
I prefer pass 3 hours on pvp and 10 minutes trading.
I've posted execly this bet idea
I"m not trolling around saying D3 will fail because of BoE. I"m saying they will have to find a way to give enough dynamic to the PvP enviorment because BoE decrease it.
And i've posted a interview with jay wilsom a couple pages ago were say the focus of the game are co-op but they wish to add a competitive enviorment in PvP at long terms.
I know it's wrong to see this whole BoE and PvP thing through D2. In D2 a BoE would -=NEVER=- work. And i'm just curious what changes will happen from D2 to D3 to make this whole BoE/PvP matter viable.
You're a PvE player and want to kill monsters.
I"m a PvP player and want to kill players. The problem here is that i wll need to play PvE even more then any PvE player existent since i'll have to farm all my gear whenever i have to change it. And in PvP some times had to change my weapon 3 times in one day (i only wish i had a AH for that :/).
Can you imagine the effort of farming THREE high end weapons ? It takes years. And thats what we're talking about, how Blizz will manage to solve this problem? Will PvP not be based uppon changing gear to seek the perfect formula? Will PvP gear easy to get like in WoW?
My point is: there is a paradox between the announced D3 systems, and maybe (problably) we only see it as a paradox because we don't have all the info. But thats the question: what they have in mind to avoid this gameplay shock ? Simply saying that theres no problem, screw PvPers they will have to live with that is rude... If they announced something that would make your PvE experience less enjoyable would you like to hear a bunch of PvP elitist saying "whos cares" ?
Noone start to build a game like diablo through the PvP. It's not like diablo 3 will be a game like GW or WAR. But it doesn't mean they don't give a shit about PvP, it can be ignored and that D3 will survive 10 years due the PvM public. It doesn't mean D3 are being made to maintain the popularity through PvM, it means the game will be selled on stores under a coop pvm banner.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhz3611u1rQ&feature=PlayList&p=5111E43E41B00677&index=13
At this video Jay Wilsom cleary says that in long terms they want D3 to be a competitive PvP game. Thats what i'm talking about. Long term, years after the release, high end.
D1 high end = PvP.
D2 high end = PvP.
D3 high end = we don't know, but w/o regular wow-like updates it's surely PvP.
And we don't really know how they plan to handle PvP. They can even come up with a e-sportive arena were all players must compete using the same gear like in WoW. I don't like this idea but...
If i could choose i would choose regular and official tornaments and leagues. Players would compete and the winners would gain rare drops and gold as prize. The loosers would have to go back to PvM until they farm enough to handle a PvP season.
Those games are not made to be played online. They are popular because lots of people finished it, not because people are playing it right now.
D3 is a totally different case. It's being made to be played online. It's a game based at trading, collecting items, evolving. How this can be possible if the only challenge are killing AI if this AI are not update fast like in WoW ?
I'll bitch about it
I would like to read a official quote too because if my mind serves me right they said coop was "at the momment" the best part of the game and they didin't even started to make PvP. I'm no professional but i allways though that PvP was the last thing to be planned in a online game so what focus PvP will have or not noone knows execly.
Every online game nowdays are builded in a way where PvP players don`t need to envolve in PvM. If D3 don`t support this those people will just go back to the good PvP games (GW, WoW, WAR, etc...) and leave D3 behind.
and i just can`t imagine a game like D3 w/o a strong PvP community. Blizz will not take 7-8 years to make a game where people will explore it`s full content in 6 mouths like a ordinary PvM rpg.
I just love the tension of play my normal PvM routine knowing that any momment this rotine cna be broken by a murderer and i will have to defend myself. The sensation of beign hunted is just great.
But i'm afraid Diablo have a format that don't allow the whole PK fight be a fair one. In every game were plays may choose to become a PK the other side of the commmunity may choose to become a APK (Anti-PK). The fight between those two sides are unbelievable nice to have in a game.
But due the format of Diablo multplayer (room based game, not a open world MMO) it's impossible to a APK community organize. The PKs allways have the advantage of the first strike. But after due their dirty job the APK peple can never haunt him down because he can just leave the game and become untrackable.
In the end PKs in diablo are nothing but a warm to the MP experience because they can allways pick weaker enemies, kill then and leave the game before anyone stronger can make vengeance. And thats just BS.
Diablo is not the place for PK fights. MMOs are.
Ok ... O.o if you say so.
Hey they will problably not leave that way
We don't even know how D3 PvP will be. With the info we have this problem exist, but we don't have all the info right ?
Theres problably a system that prevents that problem, we just dn't know yet. and i'm curious.