As far as I'm concerned, it's not a problem. If we want to try a different build, or go a different way, we'll have to do the same thing. Our way just happens to be more in line with what the developers want.
It's a matter of how we view the game. I look at it as a whole. If I want to play a PvP game, I'll buy a pvp game. I'm not going try and force the developers to change the game around how I want to play the game.
As I've said before, I honestly think that PvP in Diablo II was more of an afterthought rather than a decided design. My reasoning being the development path of Diablo III.
Edit: If they were to change the game to fully support PvPers in a way that is detrimental to PvE'ers, I have no qualms with reducing the amount of time I will spend playing the game. It's not the end-all be-all, or the end of the world for me. I'll end up playing a different game. It's that simple.
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Well, true... but that's because you have overlapping non-ladders. As soon as a ladder resets, all ladder characters become non ladder characters, combining previous non-ladder characters. This increases the amount of tradable items by a ton, watering down the prices due to a spike in supply.
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A) Ladder resets do not wipe all items, so that is a moot point
In a sense it does. Ladder only items cannot be used on non-ladder characters, and vice versa. Every time a ladder resets, everyone must start from scratch and level again. Doesn't this sound like what'll have to happen anyway? BoE or no?
"You want to dull an aspect of the game that the whole thing is based around, to promote an aspect of the game that, I feel, was more of an afterthought to appease a small niche group?" --- What are you talking about? Item binding is a completely ALIEN concept to D2. Its a concept taken from WoW and other games. If anything, it is Blizz who are trying to dull an aspect of the game - a core pivotal one (open trading) in order to appease PVE'ers
By making items even more scarce, you're creating a high demand for it. Yes, we love to trade and haggle for our items too, but we also don't mind going out and farming them. I personally thing you're worrying about something trivial and small. If only the top 1% of items are BoE, it doesn't mean you won't see them on the market, it just means you'll have to be that much better at haggling.
C) "All I'm really reading is "I don't really want to have to work as hard as other people because I PvP". Gaming affirmative action much?" Games are not about working hard. Games are about fun and enjoyment. We work hard enough in school and work. We don't log onto games to "work hard". And what "working hard" means to a PvP'er and a PvE'er are completely different things. PVE'ers enjoy killing mobs over and over. Thats fun to them, so it is not work - but pvp'ers cringe at the thought of it. While PVP'ers in diablo "work hard" by spending a large amount of time seeking out lucrative trades.
You're missing the point, and nitpicking my words. Nobody's asking you to bust out five hours a night MF grinding. Nobody's asking you to play 40 hours a week to get the items you need to be a good trader. What Blizzard is saying, though, is "For the rarest of rare, you'd better be a good charmer, or a good farmer. One way or another, those items be rare."
For Diablo PVP'ers, trying out new items, trading, chatting with pvp buddies in games, going over build strategies with different weapon setups etc.
THAT is what is fun for us. For us the hard-work part comes in during the endless trade haggling back and forth. PVE'ers may hate that crap.
For PvE'ers, trying out new items, trading, chatting with PvE buddies in games, going over new build strategies with different weapon setups, dungeon crawling, MFing, rushing friends, questing, and haggling for bigger and better. THAT is what is fun for us. The hard-work part comes in during the fact that we do ALL of the above, and still enjoy PvP every now and then.
You mock the idea of giving bind on equip items on a delayed 1 year or so timer. Why? How does it harm your pve experience? How? Binding was never a part of Diablo. And having it on a delayed timer would still solve the issue of rares building up in the game, whilst still giving pvp'ers access to a vital aspect of what diablo pvp'ing is all about.
Yes, I mock it because it's ridiculous. BoE Delayed one year? Are you reading what you type? That means, in economical terms, that the items value will degrade exponentially (roughly 1/(x^1/2) if I remember my economics class correctly) because of the item now having a decay time. Nobody will want the item if it has three days left (unless they're desperate). I think that the one year delay does nothing more than complicates things. Think about it... essentially, you're not really relieving the situation, and might as well just remove BoE instead (Because in essence, that's what you're doing).
Just another example of what I meant when I said most pve'ers who come into threads like this are selfish. They don't even entertain ideas which do them ZERO harm, but benefit a huge part of the diablo community.
Selfish? Really? Look kid, I'm not going around pissing and moaning about PvE stuff. I'm not bitching and complaining about changing mechanics of a game to better suit what I want. I understand that; I'm a consumer. If the game doesn't live up to my expectations, I don't have to buy it. - Blizzard makes great games that last a long time. They listen to the mature community, and take all rational and feasible suggestions into consideration. - To hold judgement on a game until after release. Current design is not final production.
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You realize that the PvE-ers aren't bitching and moaning about BoE items... because they get it. They understand how the game works, how PvE is integral to the entire game. I would highly recommend stepping off of the high horse and expecting a huge rework of the game just because you PvP.
If they want to build another character... guess what? They'll have to grind it out just like you.
Face it, you're a gamer just like the rest of us. We want to kill monsters, you want to kill people. You're not special, neither are we. Stop trying to piss and moan about it.
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I'm sorry Michal, but I really can't see your point. You want to dull an aspect of the game that the whole thing is based around, to promote an aspect of the game that, I feel, was more of an afterthought to appease a small niche group?
Maybe the group of PvPers is bigger than I think.... but then again, maybe the group is smaller than you think.
As far as a delayed timer... after trying to look at it rationally, I can't really find a clean way to say that [that idea] is probably one of the worst ones I've heard yet (no offense to you). I've seen ladder resets happen in a shorter amount of time.
All I'm really reading is "I don't really want to have to work as hard as other people because I PvP". Gaming affirmative action much?
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You're right! There's no way a game can survive only on PVM, beating the crap out of other players is the ultimate goal in a game like D3!
Sure it can! Fallout 3, Oblivion, and the original Final Fantasy XI are great examples of games that don't (or didn't) support PvP. In addition, games that focused on PvP on equal or greater terms aren't as popular (or last as long) with the general populace (DAoC, GW, Warhammer, ect. ect.)
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As for myself, I believe that BoE items on higher end characters are designed for several reasons:
1) To add longer gameplay. In many games (specific to the RPG category), multitudes of devices are designed to increase time spent playing the game. Take, for example, older Final Fantasy games (of which I can comfortably speak about as I'm not too knowledgeable of the newer ones, and I <3 the old-schoolers). Be it a higher percentage of random encounters, multiple side quests, pre-set bosses that forced leveling, and (later on) CG storytelling movies, they were all devices to increase gametime (which is why some games can boast 70+ hours of game time).
2) To enhance the rarity of the item. Lets say I'm running around on my Monk with Natalya's Mark II (see what I did thar?)... there is a presence demanded by that. I either worked hard to earn it, or worked hard to trade items for it. It preserves the rarity of the item, keeping it "rare" for much longer (by limiting the supply even more). It seems to be an interestingly aggressive move to try and keep the market stimulated.
3) <flameshield activated>To require PvPers to play the game as it was meant to. Yes, that's a bold statement from me, but think about it. The Dev team has already stated that, first and foremost, this game is a co-operative game. I assume that they will have something for the PvPers, but they aren't going to revolve this game around PvP (and in this author's honest opinion, rightfully so). In order to get the best, you have to work for it.
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Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
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Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
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It's a matter of how we view the game. I look at it as a whole. If I want to play a PvP game, I'll buy a pvp game. I'm not going try and force the developers to change the game around how I want to play the game.
As I've said before, I honestly think that PvP in Diablo II was more of an afterthought rather than a decided design. My reasoning being the development path of Diablo III.
Edit: If they were to change the game to fully support PvPers in a way that is detrimental to PvE'ers, I have no qualms with reducing the amount of time I will spend playing the game. It's not the end-all be-all, or the end of the world for me. I'll end up playing a different game. It's that simple.
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Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
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Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
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Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
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In a sense it does. Ladder only items cannot be used on non-ladder characters, and vice versa. Every time a ladder resets, everyone must start from scratch and level again. Doesn't this sound like what'll have to happen anyway? BoE or no?
By making items even more scarce, you're creating a high demand for it. Yes, we love to trade and haggle for our items too, but we also don't mind going out and farming them. I personally thing you're worrying about something trivial and small. If only the top 1% of items are BoE, it doesn't mean you won't see them on the market, it just means you'll have to be that much better at haggling.
You're missing the point, and nitpicking my words. Nobody's asking you to bust out five hours a night MF grinding. Nobody's asking you to play 40 hours a week to get the items you need to be a good trader. What Blizzard is saying, though, is "For the rarest of rare, you'd better be a good charmer, or a good farmer. One way or another, those items be rare."
For PvE'ers, trying out new items, trading, chatting with PvE buddies in games, going over new build strategies with different weapon setups, dungeon crawling, MFing, rushing friends, questing, and haggling for bigger and better. THAT is what is fun for us. The hard-work part comes in during the fact that we do ALL of the above, and still enjoy PvP every now and then.
Yes, I mock it because it's ridiculous. BoE Delayed one year? Are you reading what you type? That means, in economical terms, that the items value will degrade exponentially (roughly 1/(x^1/2) if I remember my economics class correctly) because of the item now having a decay time. Nobody will want the item if it has three days left (unless they're desperate). I think that the one year delay does nothing more than complicates things. Think about it... essentially, you're not really relieving the situation, and might as well just remove BoE instead (Because in essence, that's what you're doing).
Selfish? Really? Look kid, I'm not going around pissing and moaning about PvE stuff. I'm not bitching and complaining about changing mechanics of a game to better suit what I want. I understand that; I'm a consumer. If the game doesn't live up to my expectations, I don't have to buy it. - Blizzard makes great games that last a long time. They listen to the mature community, and take all rational and feasible suggestions into consideration. - To hold judgement on a game until after release. Current design is not final production.
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Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
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If they want to build another character... guess what? They'll have to grind it out just like you.
Face it, you're a gamer just like the rest of us. We want to kill monsters, you want to kill people. You're not special, neither are we. Stop trying to piss and moan about it.
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Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
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Maybe the group of PvPers is bigger than I think.... but then again, maybe the group is smaller than you think.
As far as a delayed timer... after trying to look at it rationally, I can't really find a clean way to say that [that idea] is probably one of the worst ones I've heard yet (no offense to you). I've seen ladder resets happen in a shorter amount of time.
All I'm really reading is "I don't really want to have to work as hard as other people because I PvP". Gaming affirmative action much?
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Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
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Sure it can! Fallout 3, Oblivion, and the original Final Fantasy XI are great examples of games that don't (or didn't) support PvP. In addition, games that focused on PvP on equal or greater terms aren't as popular (or last as long) with the general populace (DAoC, GW, Warhammer, ect. ect.)
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Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
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1) To add longer gameplay. In many games (specific to the RPG category), multitudes of devices are designed to increase time spent playing the game. Take, for example, older Final Fantasy games (of which I can comfortably speak about as I'm not too knowledgeable of the newer ones, and I <3 the old-schoolers). Be it a higher percentage of random encounters, multiple side quests, pre-set bosses that forced leveling, and (later on) CG storytelling movies, they were all devices to increase gametime (which is why some games can boast 70+ hours of game time).
2) To enhance the rarity of the item. Lets say I'm running around on my Monk with Natalya's Mark II (see what I did thar?)... there is a presence demanded by that. I either worked hard to earn it, or worked hard to trade items for it. It preserves the rarity of the item, keeping it "rare" for much longer (by limiting the supply even more). It seems to be an interestingly aggressive move to try and keep the market stimulated.
3) <flameshield activated>To require PvPers to play the game as it was meant to. Yes, that's a bold statement from me, but think about it. The Dev team has already stated that, first and foremost, this game is a co-operative game. I assume that they will have something for the PvPers, but they aren't going to revolve this game around PvP (and in this author's honest opinion, rightfully so). In order to get the best, you have to work for it.
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Those who stand for nothing will fall for anything.
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