dude, you're talking crap, and you know it. that type of community you describe is perhaps 10 or 15% (TOPS!) of the PvP players, the rest is composed of little kids who like to talk crap all day, or idiotic PvPers/PKers who can only get their rocks off by belittling other people.
I don't give a crap about the "idiotic pvper/pker". They are irrelevant. They are not the community who is still playing diablo 10 years after release.
And is FAR more than "10 or 15%". You talk very confidently for a guy who i'm starting to quickly realize knows jack sh*t about the game
How arrogant of you to declare "well only to a point. i think the #1 reason to play PvE is 'fun', especially if it's co-op. yeah, it might not be the most challenging thing in the world, but i'll take good fun with mates over a good challenge against strangers any day. i think competitiveness is overrated."
And then as a long time PVP'er, when I tell you one of the main reasons why PVP is so popular, you can't even take the highroad on that, and still want to bully through your bullsh*t some more.
well, only to a point. i think the #1 reason to play PvE is 'fun', especially if it's co-op. yeah, it might not be the most challenging thing in the world, but i'll take good fun with mates over a good challenge against strangers any day. i think competitiveness is overrated.
What you think PVP'er spend their time eyeballing each other down and talking smack?
The social aspect of it is 80% of why people like PVP.
PvP'ers have their own private channels, private games, private forums etc. It literally is a tight knit community.
On any given day in a palapk game, we'd be sitting around chatting all night while other PvP'ers float in and out of the game. And almost every person who joins (random people out of the thousands in palapk in those days), everyone in the game would greet them by name. "Sup Mike" "Hey Marco" etc etc
Thats what Diablo PVP is about. Hanging out with people you see every day in dueling games, and who quickly become your friends. The trading and gearing up for PVP is just the fuel which keeps people interested and frequenting the same channels and games. The social aspect is the natural consequence of playing with the same people so often. If your a PVPer, you log onto D2, instantly join whatever private game is common knowledge among pvpers, and youll find the games packed all the time. Duel everyone in the game for fun, then chat away about life and everything in between
Rare item build up hurts PVE'ers because it waters down the game over time. Take the best bows (other than a few crafted) in the game for many years (buriza/eaglehorn/windy). As time goes by, more and more and more people find those bows, so they begin to build up. The more of them that are found, the less valuable they become. Several years in they are relatively cheap, such that nearly every Zon is carrying them
Same thing with the best rare shield (stormshield)
That hurts PVE because the game is not designed to be tackled by parties of players decked out in full rare gear. It watens down the PVE experience making it easier
And i'm assuming PVE'ers enjoy challenges. Thats why rare item build up hurts PVE'ers. (It doesn't really affect PVP'ers because PVP a weapon with 2% more damage is a huge advantage in PVP, but irrelevant in PVE. So as items pool up in the game, it just means the bar for what is elite pvp gear shifts upward with it because your facing other players). Baal doesn't get stronger depending on how many rares are currently in the game
i think you just antagonised the few supporters you had on this thread. a few pages back, they were screaming that D2 PvP was all about skill.
Ofcourse its about skill. But its not the same type of skill which lends itself to things such as arena's or pvp rewards. It skill based on how well you can custom-tailor your characters gear to match your stat points. An infinitely flexible process if you know what your doing. And skill based on knowledge about what really are the best items in the game.
Knowing when you should break the bank and trade everything you have to get that cheesy looking yellow sword which does half the damage of the rares everyone else has simply because you know the mechanics of why that sword is better with your class in terms of frame-rate of attack speed and such. Knowing how to figure out why your paladin zealot is losing to another zealot when he seems to have the same gear as you. Thats the whole fun of pvp in hack-and-slash games, and what determines the skill
But its not skill based in the sense of whoever has the best timing and reflexes wins the fight. Only time that was ever true was in amazon duels when people used to maphack and knowing how to aim guided missile arrows using maphack was a cat and mouse game between amazons.
Other than that, two teleporting sorc or whirlwinding barbarians who have been pvp'ing for are pretty much identical in how much their skill affects the fight. Leave alone java-zons , paladins, and fury druids who basically point and click on each other, and watch as the characters pound each other, until one person's dmg/leech/lethalstrike wins them the duel. It comes down to the skill of the player before the fight even started
How do you know that it is not based on fighting skill. Have you played it?
I'm also guessing that any form of general reward would only be given if you use some form of matchmaking, otherwise it would be abused. Betting or similar things would work just fine since they are optional and a part of a deal. Both parts know what they are doing and can choose to not risk anything if they think that their opponents gear is too good.
Also, there is no stat point customization in Diablo 3.
For the answer, read what I wrote in the few sentences after the portion you quoted
*
Diablo PvP'ers don't need rewards and gimicks to enjoy themselves. On any given day, join one of the popular dueling games and watch the people happily running around the fields outside act 1 chatting about anything and everything with one another while they take turns dueling.
All we want is for our trade system not to get butchered.
In my opinion, the best option would be a delayed soul-binding system.
Something like, on January 1'st of every year - all high end items in peoples inventories/characters will get soul bound permanently
What this allows is basically a full year of free and open trading. But the annual sever wide soul-bind of rare items will ensure that they never build up. Because every year on Jan1st, there are zero rares floating around in the market. Then over the year they begin to slowly build up again.
Ofcourse for PVP'ers, we would prefer no soul binding ever. But that doesn't address the problem of rares pooling up, which harms PVE'ers. So a compromise is to meet each other half way with something like the system I just mentioned.
I appreciate that the conversation has now seemed to have switched to something more constructive.
However I just wanted to point out one thing.
A lot of people the last few pages have been talking about high end pvp rewards for winning duels and that kind of stuff
To put it simply, that quite simply cannot work in Diablo. It just flat out can't. Like i've pointed out many times, Diablo is a hack-and-slash game, and that is actually something which the developers are proud of. In one of the panels, I remember them saying that D3 would not support any interface addons, and that they are designing the game so that it can be played with a mouse alone if a person wanted to play like that.
You can't have "pvp rewards" in a diablo game, because pvp in diablo is not based on fighting skill. The skill comes in when customizing your stat points and gear. Gear gear gear.
pvp rewards works in WoW because WoW pvp is highly dependant on skill. You have to know your class skills inside out, and know all the enemy class skills inside out. My rogue in wow had 6-7 addons running at all times counting down timers on my screen for my skills, timers for enemy skills, cooldowns, spell warnings, immunity warnings, disable warnings etc.
But in Diablo pvp, you win if your gear is better, unless your opponent is completely retarded. But that is not a knock on diablo. I enjoyed my Diablo pvp years 10x more than I enjoyed WoW's pvp, despite the fact that I did very well in arenas
Mainly because WoW is a hamsterwheel. You'll never do well unless you are willing to put in endless hours a day farming honor, dungeons and arena points just to stay with the latest rewards. And at the end of the day, every pvper is decked out in virtually the same gear. Boring
There was a psychology study done several years back involving pre-school kids. The children were given 1 hour "free time" every day, and given access to coloring books and crayons. All the kids spent the entire hour happily coloring to their hearts delight for weeks
Then the experimenters began awarding the children Gold Stars depending on how much they colored.
Then a few days later, the experimenters stopped handing out stars for the coloring sessions. Very quickly, the children who had once loved to color, suddenly didn't have the interest in it anymore. None of them spent that hour of free time coloring anymore
How does this relate to PvP and even PvE? When you give fixed target rewards for something people enjoyed doing, they get tunnel vision and view the activity as a chore that must be done to get the reward. The activity loses its intrinsic enjoyability, to the same person who was happily enjoying it without rewards prior.
This doesn't apply to magic finding because magic finding is an interirely different phenomena (namely magic finding taps into the natural enjoyment we get from gambling and games of chance)
Another thing which people haven't considered is the issue of those annoying online item sellers.
In WoW blizzard eliminated it by making virtually all gear bind on pick up.
Try to imagine a scenario where "top end" items in diablo are bind on equip. The Chinese farmers are going to have a bonanza.
But that is a secondary issue to the ones that concern me the most.
Overall though, I don't know what I was expecting from an internet forum. Maybe the slick design of diablo.fans website, and relative slow moving forum made me assume some kind of more sophisticated mature gamer.
To be quite frank, some of the PVE'ers commenting here are either
a) Complete idiots,
Are woefully ignorant about the intricacies of what made diablo work. (not surprising considering PVP'ers have always been the largest community of long-term players of Diablo 2 in its old age. Whether you know or care to admit this is up to you)
c) Are indeed well informed, but simply to selfish to acknowledge the issues raised here about irreversible BOE and what it will do to the entire fun of what Diablo PVP is about
Normally I would never start bad-mouthing people, but the sheer condacending attitude of PVE'ers in this thread has pushed me to it.
Completely ignore the issues raised, and try to address them with snarky comments like "Oh NO! Don't tell me Binding is going to force PVP'ers to actually play the game!", as if PVP'ers jumped into diablo, and went straight to dueling. Every PVP'er began as a PVE'er, enjoyed and appreciated the beautiful game of Diablo, and only began PVP'ing when the repetitive nature of PVE became boring. The other gamer's who had experienced and enjoyed the game and then got bored, simply quit the game and left. While others turned to PVP and kept supporting the Diablo community for years and years to come
Then you have these childish PVE'ers who arrogantly think the only voice that matters is theirs.
You realize that the PvE-ers aren't bitching and moaning about BoE items... because they get it. They understand how the game works, how PvE is integral to the entire game. I would highly recommend stepping off of the high horse and expecting a huge rework of the game just because you PvP.
If they want to build another character... guess what? They'll have to grind it out just like you.
Face it, you're a gamer just like the rest of us. We want to kill monsters, you want to kill people. You're not special, neither are we. Stop trying to piss and moan about it.
Of-course their not. Because the one ore two percentage differences in gear which fuel what PVP is all about matter zero to a PVE'er. A pve'er couldn't care less if he or she has 18% life leech as opposed to 16% life leech. They don't care about balancing decisions between choosing a faster 4 frame attack weapon with lower damage as opposed to a 5 frame attack one with higher damage. They don't agonize about whether to socket with lethal strike runes or simply go pure attack speed and try to get that lethal strike from other pieces.
But these are the very issues which hack-and-slash pvp is all about. So of-course PVE'ers aren't going to give a crap about bind on equip. Sooner or later theyll get that rare bow or rare axe and that will be the end of it. But for a pvp'er there is no such thing as "the end of it". We are constantly trying to improve our character by trading back and forth until we find optimal gear combination.
And you butcher 90% of the fun part of what makes diablo 2 pvp so lovable and keeps people at it 10 years later when you try to introduce permanent bind on equips. It just can't work if pvp'ers are too scared to try on items because it will bind to you permanently. And if the only available items to trade for are so tiny b/c only unworn gear is available. And equally importantly because for a PVE'er, their in-game wealth grows every time they do what they love. IE pve. While a pvp'er cannot grow richer by pvp'ing. And tourneys or competitive pvp is simply not possible in a hack-and-slash game where gear dictates 90% of the fights outcome. PVP'ers grow richer with smart incremental trades over the career of their characters. When I quit the game for personal obligations, my paladin's full pvp set could have sold for $5000 on ebay if i cared about selling it. (Instead I gave various pieces of my items to pvp friends who id been playing with for years).
What I don't get is why PVE'ers are against suggestions which DO NOT AFFECT THEM IN ANY WAY. But are advocating suggestions which affect PVP'ers HUGELY. It is YOU pve'ers who are being incredibly selfish, and not the other way round
PVE and PVP are both vital aspects of the diablo community. The suggestions i've been giving try to find a middle-ground which addresses the concerns of both communities. Instead of this elitist pve attitude where they think they are the only ones that matter.
I'm sorry Michal, but I really can't see your point. You want to dull an aspect of the game that the whole thing is based around, to promote an aspect of the game that, I feel, was more of an afterthought to appease a small niche group?
Maybe the group of PvPers is bigger than I think.... but then again, maybe the group is smaller than you think.
As far as a delayed timer... after trying to look at it rationally, I can't really find a clean way to say that [that idea] is probably one of the worst ones I've heard yet (no offense to you). I've seen ladder resets happen in a shorter amount of time.
All I'm really reading is "I don't really want to have to work as hard as other people because I PvP". Gaming affirmative action much?
A) Ladder resets do not wipe all items, so that is a moot point
"You want to dull an aspect of the game that the whole thing is based around, to promote an aspect of the game that, I feel, was more of an afterthought to appease a small niche group?" --- What are you talking about? Item binding is a completely ALIEN concept to D2. Its a concept taken from WoW and other games. If anything, it is Blizz who are trying to dull an aspect of the game - a core pivotal one (open trading) in order to appease PVE'ers
C) "All I'm really reading is "I don't really want to have to work as hard as other people because I PvP". Gaming affirmative action much?" Games are not about working hard. Games are about fun and enjoyment. We work hard enough in school and work. We don't log onto games to "work hard". And what "working hard" means to a PvP'er and a PvE'er are completely different things. PVE'ers enjoy killing mobs over and over. Thats fun to them, so it is not work - but pvp'ers cringe at the thought of it. While PVP'ers in diablo "work hard" by spending a large amount of time seeking out lucrative trades. I remember in D2 I once spent 4 full hours in a game chatting with a guy until I'd convinced him to trade me the Cruel Mythical Sword of Lapmprey he had on his druid in exchange for a very rare ethereal 6 socketed warspike I had on my pally. I'd explained to him the mechanics of how it would give his druid a 4 frame attack. Then he'd haggle back asking if its so good why do I wan't to trade it. And i'd explain to him how pallys can hit 4 frames easily, and the lamprey is a better weapon for us, but the 6 socket warspike allows druids to socket it with mutiple attack speed gems and hit 4 frames, and how because it was etheral it had higher damage than other warspikes, and was very rare. ETC ETC ETC
For Diablo PVP'ers, trying out new items, trading, chatting with pvp buddies in games, going over build strategies with different weapon setups etc.
THAT is what is fun for us. For us the hard-work part comes in during the endless trade haggling back and forth. PVE'ers may hate that crap.
You mock the idea of giving bind on equip items on a delayed 1 year or so timer. Why? How does it harm your pve experience? How? Binding was never a part of Diablo. And having it on a delayed timer would still solve the issue of rares building up in the game, whilst still giving pvp'ers access to a vital aspect of what diablo pvp'ing is all about
Just another example of what I meant when I said most pve'ers who come into threads like this are selfish. They don't even entertain ideas which do them ZERO harm, but benefit a huge part of the diablo community.
We do not know how the items are going to be like and how the drop rate is going to be for the items yet. I think many of the items are going to be worked towards the end when they start to balance everything together.
They may decide that some of the quests may reward some high end items just like D1 had. If they decide to are likely going to be random side quests and they should be difficult to complete.
What I don't understand is why accommodations cannot be made.
Example: Why do they want to introduce Bind on Equip gear? Because over time, Rare items become more and more abundant, and their value goes down.
Fair point.
So if you don't want to have hard quests or high gold prices which allow players to unbind gear, why not have the binding of the gear on a simple delayed timer?
When an item designated for soul binding is found or crafted, it will bind to the whichever character has it after 1 year and a half. (18 months)
What this means is that for 18 months, that item can get traded around freely, even if it has been tried on by someone. But after the 18 months is up, it binds to the account of whoever was wearing it, or had it in their bags
This would allow some decent flexibility for the PVP community so that trade is not butchered, whilst solving the problem of rare items building up.
Because every day rare items would be getting soul bound. (ie items which were found/crafted 18 months ago). This means rare items are continually and constantly being removed from the market, allowing the value of rare items for the PVE crowd to remain high.
It will have the EXACT same effects in terms of curbing build up of rares, than if items were binding immediately upon equip.
Imagine a girl walking down the street, dropping flowers on the ground. Under the current instant bind on equip, it just means that there is another guy walking directly behind her who is immediately cleaning up the flowers.
But if you give a 18 month delay, it just means that the guy who is cleaning up the flowers, will wait until the girl has walked a hundred feet befre before he starts picking up the flowers she is dropping
Under both systems, the build up of rare items will be controlled effectively.
But under the delayed system, it will also allow much greater trading and sampling of items than would otherwise be possible.
A compromise that would give the PVP community breathing room, while also addressing Blizzards main concerns regarding build up of rare items in Diablo 2
^^nobody's talking about bind-on-pick-up, it's bind-on-equip.
and to everybody that is against BoE because it will (supposedly) ruin PvP: blizzard representatives have already stated that PvM (in particular, co-op PvM) will be the main focus of D3. you can either accept that, or you can continue to bitch about it.
See thats the problem with guys like you. Early on in the thread, you came in pretending to give partial and fair comments
But in reality, your just another snotty nosed PVE'er who doesn't care if such a crucial aspect of what Diablo PVP is about is ruined for a such a huge fanbase and the Diablo PVP community
What boggles the mind is why you must be so selfish.
If blizzard implemented a system where you could complete as series of hard quests, or farm a certain amount of Gold in order to unbind a particular item, why are you against it?
How the f*ck does it affect your PVE experience? You don't want to trade for items then don't. Go PVE to your hearts content
The whole "only items over level 85" is rediculous. PVP doesn't begin until you are max level anyway. Unless you aer some kind of twink pvp'er who wants to fight only at lvl 50, for 99% of the PVP community, they play through the campagin, enjoy the game, level up their character, and then when they hit level 99, they start the amazingly enjoyable process of wheeling an dealing in trades for better items.
A VITAL part of D2 PVP is TRYING the friggen item first. Thats the whole enjoyment of PVP. Trial and Error. You trade your sword/axe whatever to some guy who has a nice looking kris knife because you heard on the forum it is better with your build. You try out the kris knife, and if you don't like it, you trade it away to some other dude who wants it. And so the endless cycle of improvement continues.
In a hack-and-slash game the whole point is tweaking and matching gear to your hearts content. That DOESN'T WORK if you don't want to try on the weapon/gear because as soon as you do it is forever bound to you and you cannot trade it, and all the value it holds is out the window
PVE is BOOORING to me. The first or second playthough is enjoyable because the content is fresh and new. The lore, the quests, the experience of it all. PVE after a few months is BORING to me.
But thats MY opinion. I'm not going to say Blizzard should make Diablo 3 an open world of PVP so that I can go gank PVE'ers any time I want. Because that would ruin a lot of what PVE'ers find fun. IE minding their own buisness and taking down NPC bosses and finding loot. More power to ya.
But PVE'ers like you don't have the same respect. You selfishly want something as pivotal as end-game trading to be butchered by this BOE crap just because it serves your own selfish PVE needs
PVP'ers don't give a flying crap about killing a Boss you killed two days ago again. The PVE enjoyment for us is in the experience of the first few playhtoughs of the game. And after that for the next 10 years or whatever, the fun is in PVP and the ever enjoyable climb towards the most perfect gear and gear combinations. That cannot happen when items which players have used can no longer be traded, or because you are too scared to try on an item you found b/c it will forever be bound to you
Ok, I tried to argue my points rationally, including long detailed posts, but It seems the the same old crap
PVE'ers coming and shooting down ideas an stubbornly refusing to see the obvious for their own selfish PVE reasons.
Quote from "ScyberDragon" »
Exactly. This thread is one person's opinion who doesn't like the change and he is claiming that 99% of the other players agree with him despite the fact that nobody else here (whom all still play D2 to some degree) agrees with him.
BoE is going to be in the game and it is there for a reason. Blizzard is one of the most successful gaming companies in the world and I am sure they are above making such foolish mistakes that Michal thinks they are. There is no need to go back and forth about the same subject. We understand that BoE will cause players to have less gear to trade with but that is the reason they are adding it. If you want to stop the market from flooding with high-end gear, you have to have a way to control it. Trades will still exist, people will still by their top gear, this just makes it a little harder.
Do not delude yourself
Glance around this thread about the topic which was started a few months ago on Battlnet's forum
At least half of the people are against it. And almots always the same half. The pvp'ers don't like it, and the PVE'ers come in start advocating for the idea.
Since you guys don't like when I make long posts, or seem to even read them, let me cut the bullsh*t and say it right now
Bind on Equip is to reward PVE'ers. I hate PVE. As to most long time PVP'ers. Thats why they PVP. Clicking mindless monsters over and over, no matter how clever the AI is not fun ever, especially when you are doing the run for the 1000 time. Bind on Equip is a PVE'ers wetdream, and it is a PVP'ers nightmare. Plain and simple.
Just look at the idea I gave one or two pages ago about, making expensive gold or very hard quests to do in order to "unbind" an item . A perfectly legitimate compromise which satisfys hardcore pvp'ers, but also addresses the legitamate question of item over-inflation
But snarky pve'ers like Maka don't consider it, because the end of the day, whilst a pvp'er like myself is willing to make consolations like the suggestion I made, PVE'ers selfishly advocate it because it serves their play style
I repeat - The heart of PVP in a hack and slash, is improving your gear incrementally by slowing building up from current items. All the items inyour bag and that you are wearing, which you worked so hard for - they all have value, and help you trade for better items in the future. Bind on equip BUTCHERS this. It forces PVP'ers to become PVEers. Plain and simple.
My apartment: $100,000
My target house: 250,000
If that is your situation, you wan't to be able to sell your apartment, get the money, and then use it towards buying your new house
But bind on equip means your apartment is worthless and you will have to get the whole $250,000 from scratch. And when you enter your new house "equip new items", the whole 250,000 goes down the drain, and you can never use it to buy something again
Since people are getting rude in this thread, ill put it simply.
Permanent bind on equip is a horrible idea, and everything that is diablo, and a hamster-wheel solution which will suck the joy out of all things PVP, and is catered to PVE'ers like the ones in this thread
Suggestion # 2 - Take a moment to read this idea. I think it is a good compromiseAnother idea is this, which may help eliminate the market flooding of items.
Firstly, do not make armor off-pieces soul bound.
Things like belts/rings/boots should not soud bind, since people trade them more often.
Only have Weapons, Chest Armors, Shields, helmets, boots as bind on equip.
However with one crucial caviat;
You can visit an blacksmith/cultist in one of the diablo towns, who will use his talents/magic to unbind the item from you so it can be traded.
However, there is a restriction. Every time you have an armor un-bound from you, it costs more and more gold to unbind other items in the future. (Blizz mentioned they are working hard on gold-sinks that will ensure gold is valuable in diablo 3)
What does this mean? It means that there will never be flooding of high end items on the market, because at some stage, it will become too expensive for players to un-bind a weapon/armor-piece again. (Maybe the first 20 unbinds are fairly cheap, and then prices start rising exponentially) The effort required to harvest all of that gold end up being not worth trading your run-off the mill rare weapons
However, this will leave some flexibility for the PVP crowd. Why? Because for many pvp'ers, some of the very high end items they desire or own, have no price tag.
If for example, I really wanted someone's cruel mythical sword of quicknes, and he really wanted my axe, we could both decide to work on getting that gold over the next two or three weeks to pay for that unbind.
That is a short-term forseeable goal which one can handle. Its not as depressing as saying "My current item is useless and has no trade value, and I have to PVE for months and months, hoping to get enough rare drops so that I can trade with someone who hasn't equipped that really nice item I want"
The items you or I have retain their intrinsic value. It just becomes a matter of working hard for a few weeks perhaps until you have enough gold to pay the blacksmith NPC to unbind it for you.
Such a system would work perfectly. It would have the best of both worlds. Items would not flood the market, because the as the game matures, the Gold-costs of unbinding items on veteran players will be so expensive, that it will not be worth the hastle of unbinding them. You will save your gold for unbinds which really matter to you. Your not gonna bother spending the two or three weeks to unbind that sorceress shaku hat. So it remains off the market.
And at the same time it allows PVP'ers not to feel as if every time they equip a rare item, it is now lost forever. In the back of their minds, they know that if they ever need to upgrade it, they can put in the time and effort needed to unbind the item, and regain its value for as a bargaining chip for a bigger package.
Sorry for the long posts. I do tend to get carried away
Here are two ideas I thought about.
Suggestion # 1
- Make endlessely upward % modifiers for various rare items
Take for example the best Bow for Amazons early on. The Eagle Horn bow. A rare bow drop
Now imagine that not all eagle-horns are created equal. They are all good, but they come with fluctuating random modifiers which have no upper limit.
One eagle-horn may have 100% enhanced damage. (Highest chance to drop)
Another eagle-horn may have 101% enhanced damage (slightly lower chance to drop)
and so on and so forth
Diablo had a similar system, but it was capped. So nearly all the PVP sorceres for example were running around with perfect Shakus (head gear)
Instead of capping it, blizzard should make it endless, such that you can have a180% enhanced damage eagle-horn which has a far lower chance to drop than other eagle-horns which are already very rare.
The greater the damage% extra boost, (or life leech or whatever), the more vanishly harder the item is to drop.
Where theoretically you can have a an eaglehorn with 500% enhanced damage, but chances of it dropping are 1 in a hundred million
What am I getting at?
Think about it. Early on in the game, basic eagle horns will be the cream of the crop for amazons. Its what people will want.
One year into the game, eagle-horns will have began to flood the market as more and more people accumulate them, but all that now happens is that the higher % eaglehorns become the more desirable item for Amazons. (Example a 120% enhanced damage eagle horn)
And one year later, statistically speaking, more eaglehorns would be circulating in the game, but no problem. Because now its the 150% eagle horn which is rarer still which becomes the desirable item.
The same concept can be given to magical items for wizards or witchdoctors. Where the rare items have magical damage boosts % wise.
Or rare armors which have fluctuating % boosts to their base armor stats.
What this means is that you will never have a situation where half the sources are wearing perfect % Shakus (head gear which every sorc has).
Do you see what I'm getting at? You would never ever reach a situation where everyone is carrying the same exact items, because modifers with no upper limit, and the laws of probability, will dictate that even if the game ran for 100 years, there would still be great variety in the desirability of items between different players.
And so whether or not items flood the market becomes irrelevant, because there is such great variety in the desirability of those items themselves
I don't give a crap about the "idiotic pvper/pker". They are irrelevant. They are not the community who is still playing diablo 10 years after release.
And is FAR more than "10 or 15%". You talk very confidently for a guy who i'm starting to quickly realize knows jack sh*t about the game
How arrogant of you to declare "well only to a point. i think the #1 reason to play PvE is 'fun', especially if it's co-op. yeah, it might not be the most challenging thing in the world, but i'll take good fun with mates over a good challenge against strangers any day. i think competitiveness is overrated."
And then as a long time PVP'er, when I tell you one of the main reasons why PVP is so popular, you can't even take the highroad on that, and still want to bully through your bullsh*t some more.
What you think PVP'er spend their time eyeballing each other down and talking smack?
The social aspect of it is 80% of why people like PVP.
PvP'ers have their own private channels, private games, private forums etc. It literally is a tight knit community.
On any given day in a palapk game, we'd be sitting around chatting all night while other PvP'ers float in and out of the game. And almost every person who joins (random people out of the thousands in palapk in those days), everyone in the game would greet them by name. "Sup Mike" "Hey Marco" etc etc
Thats what Diablo PVP is about. Hanging out with people you see every day in dueling games, and who quickly become your friends. The trading and gearing up for PVP is just the fuel which keeps people interested and frequenting the same channels and games. The social aspect is the natural consequence of playing with the same people so often. If your a PVPer, you log onto D2, instantly join whatever private game is common knowledge among pvpers, and youll find the games packed all the time. Duel everyone in the game for fun, then chat away about life and everything in between
Rare item build up hurts PVE'ers because it waters down the game over time. Take the best bows (other than a few crafted) in the game for many years (buriza/eaglehorn/windy). As time goes by, more and more and more people find those bows, so they begin to build up. The more of them that are found, the less valuable they become. Several years in they are relatively cheap, such that nearly every Zon is carrying them
Same thing with the best rare shield (stormshield)
That hurts PVE because the game is not designed to be tackled by parties of players decked out in full rare gear. It watens down the PVE experience making it easier
And i'm assuming PVE'ers enjoy challenges. Thats why rare item build up hurts PVE'ers. (It doesn't really affect PVP'ers because PVP a weapon with 2% more damage is a huge advantage in PVP, but irrelevant in PVE. So as items pool up in the game, it just means the bar for what is elite pvp gear shifts upward with it because your facing other players). Baal doesn't get stronger depending on how many rares are currently in the game
Ofcourse its about skill. But its not the same type of skill which lends itself to things such as arena's or pvp rewards. It skill based on how well you can custom-tailor your characters gear to match your stat points. An infinitely flexible process if you know what your doing. And skill based on knowledge about what really are the best items in the game.
Knowing when you should break the bank and trade everything you have to get that cheesy looking yellow sword which does half the damage of the rares everyone else has simply because you know the mechanics of why that sword is better with your class in terms of frame-rate of attack speed and such. Knowing how to figure out why your paladin zealot is losing to another zealot when he seems to have the same gear as you. Thats the whole fun of pvp in hack-and-slash games, and what determines the skill
But its not skill based in the sense of whoever has the best timing and reflexes wins the fight. Only time that was ever true was in amazon duels when people used to maphack and knowing how to aim guided missile arrows using maphack was a cat and mouse game between amazons.
Other than that, two teleporting sorc or whirlwinding barbarians who have been pvp'ing for are pretty much identical in how much their skill affects the fight. Leave alone java-zons , paladins, and fury druids who basically point and click on each other, and watch as the characters pound each other, until one person's dmg/leech/lethalstrike wins them the duel. It comes down to the skill of the player before the fight even started
For the answer, read what I wrote in the few sentences after the portion you quoted
Diablo PvP'ers don't need rewards and gimicks to enjoy themselves. On any given day, join one of the popular dueling games and watch the people happily running around the fields outside act 1 chatting about anything and everything with one another while they take turns dueling.
All we want is for our trade system not to get butchered.
In my opinion, the best option would be a delayed soul-binding system.
Something like, on January 1'st of every year - all high end items in peoples inventories/characters will get soul bound permanently
What this allows is basically a full year of free and open trading. But the annual sever wide soul-bind of rare items will ensure that they never build up. Because every year on Jan1st, there are zero rares floating around in the market. Then over the year they begin to slowly build up again.
Ofcourse for PVP'ers, we would prefer no soul binding ever. But that doesn't address the problem of rares pooling up, which harms PVE'ers. So a compromise is to meet each other half way with something like the system I just mentioned.
However I just wanted to point out one thing.
A lot of people the last few pages have been talking about high end pvp rewards for winning duels and that kind of stuff
To put it simply, that quite simply cannot work in Diablo. It just flat out can't. Like i've pointed out many times, Diablo is a hack-and-slash game, and that is actually something which the developers are proud of. In one of the panels, I remember them saying that D3 would not support any interface addons, and that they are designing the game so that it can be played with a mouse alone if a person wanted to play like that.
You can't have "pvp rewards" in a diablo game, because pvp in diablo is not based on fighting skill. The skill comes in when customizing your stat points and gear. Gear gear gear.
pvp rewards works in WoW because WoW pvp is highly dependant on skill. You have to know your class skills inside out, and know all the enemy class skills inside out. My rogue in wow had 6-7 addons running at all times counting down timers on my screen for my skills, timers for enemy skills, cooldowns, spell warnings, immunity warnings, disable warnings etc.
But in Diablo pvp, you win if your gear is better, unless your opponent is completely retarded. But that is not a knock on diablo. I enjoyed my Diablo pvp years 10x more than I enjoyed WoW's pvp, despite the fact that I did very well in arenas
Mainly because WoW is a hamsterwheel. You'll never do well unless you are willing to put in endless hours a day farming honor, dungeons and arena points just to stay with the latest rewards. And at the end of the day, every pvper is decked out in virtually the same gear. Boring
There was a psychology study done several years back involving pre-school kids. The children were given 1 hour "free time" every day, and given access to coloring books and crayons. All the kids spent the entire hour happily coloring to their hearts delight for weeks
Then the experimenters began awarding the children Gold Stars depending on how much they colored.
Then a few days later, the experimenters stopped handing out stars for the coloring sessions. Very quickly, the children who had once loved to color, suddenly didn't have the interest in it anymore. None of them spent that hour of free time coloring anymore
How does this relate to PvP and even PvE? When you give fixed target rewards for something people enjoyed doing, they get tunnel vision and view the activity as a chore that must be done to get the reward. The activity loses its intrinsic enjoyability, to the same person who was happily enjoying it without rewards prior.
This doesn't apply to magic finding because magic finding is an interirely different phenomena (namely magic finding taps into the natural enjoyment we get from gambling and games of chance)
In WoW blizzard eliminated it by making virtually all gear bind on pick up.
Try to imagine a scenario where "top end" items in diablo are bind on equip. The Chinese farmers are going to have a bonanza.
But that is a secondary issue to the ones that concern me the most.
Overall though, I don't know what I was expecting from an internet forum. Maybe the slick design of diablo.fans website, and relative slow moving forum made me assume some kind of more sophisticated mature gamer.
To be quite frank, some of the PVE'ers commenting here are either
a) Complete idiots,
Are woefully ignorant about the intricacies of what made diablo work. (not surprising considering PVP'ers have always been the largest community of long-term players of Diablo 2 in its old age. Whether you know or care to admit this is up to you)
c) Are indeed well informed, but simply to selfish to acknowledge the issues raised here about irreversible BOE and what it will do to the entire fun of what Diablo PVP is about
Normally I would never start bad-mouthing people, but the sheer condacending attitude of PVE'ers in this thread has pushed me to it.
Completely ignore the issues raised, and try to address them with snarky comments like "Oh NO! Don't tell me Binding is going to force PVP'ers to actually play the game!", as if PVP'ers jumped into diablo, and went straight to dueling. Every PVP'er began as a PVE'er, enjoyed and appreciated the beautiful game of Diablo, and only began PVP'ing when the repetitive nature of PVE became boring. The other gamer's who had experienced and enjoyed the game and then got bored, simply quit the game and left. While others turned to PVP and kept supporting the Diablo community for years and years to come
Then you have these childish PVE'ers who arrogantly think the only voice that matters is theirs.
Of-course their not. Because the one ore two percentage differences in gear which fuel what PVP is all about matter zero to a PVE'er. A pve'er couldn't care less if he or she has 18% life leech as opposed to 16% life leech. They don't care about balancing decisions between choosing a faster 4 frame attack weapon with lower damage as opposed to a 5 frame attack one with higher damage. They don't agonize about whether to socket with lethal strike runes or simply go pure attack speed and try to get that lethal strike from other pieces.
But these are the very issues which hack-and-slash pvp is all about. So of-course PVE'ers aren't going to give a crap about bind on equip. Sooner or later theyll get that rare bow or rare axe and that will be the end of it. But for a pvp'er there is no such thing as "the end of it". We are constantly trying to improve our character by trading back and forth until we find optimal gear combination.
And you butcher 90% of the fun part of what makes diablo 2 pvp so lovable and keeps people at it 10 years later when you try to introduce permanent bind on equips. It just can't work if pvp'ers are too scared to try on items because it will bind to you permanently. And if the only available items to trade for are so tiny b/c only unworn gear is available. And equally importantly because for a PVE'er, their in-game wealth grows every time they do what they love. IE pve. While a pvp'er cannot grow richer by pvp'ing. And tourneys or competitive pvp is simply not possible in a hack-and-slash game where gear dictates 90% of the fights outcome. PVP'ers grow richer with smart incremental trades over the career of their characters. When I quit the game for personal obligations, my paladin's full pvp set could have sold for $5000 on ebay if i cared about selling it. (Instead I gave various pieces of my items to pvp friends who id been playing with for years).
What I don't get is why PVE'ers are against suggestions which DO NOT AFFECT THEM IN ANY WAY. But are advocating suggestions which affect PVP'ers HUGELY. It is YOU pve'ers who are being incredibly selfish, and not the other way round
PVE and PVP are both vital aspects of the diablo community. The suggestions i've been giving try to find a middle-ground which addresses the concerns of both communities. Instead of this elitist pve attitude where they think they are the only ones that matter.
A) Ladder resets do not wipe all items, so that is a moot point
"You want to dull an aspect of the game that the whole thing is based around, to promote an aspect of the game that, I feel, was more of an afterthought to appease a small niche group?" --- What are you talking about? Item binding is a completely ALIEN concept to D2. Its a concept taken from WoW and other games. If anything, it is Blizz who are trying to dull an aspect of the game - a core pivotal one (open trading) in order to appease PVE'ers
C) "All I'm really reading is "I don't really want to have to work as hard as other people because I PvP". Gaming affirmative action much?" Games are not about working hard. Games are about fun and enjoyment. We work hard enough in school and work. We don't log onto games to "work hard". And what "working hard" means to a PvP'er and a PvE'er are completely different things. PVE'ers enjoy killing mobs over and over. Thats fun to them, so it is not work - but pvp'ers cringe at the thought of it. While PVP'ers in diablo "work hard" by spending a large amount of time seeking out lucrative trades. I remember in D2 I once spent 4 full hours in a game chatting with a guy until I'd convinced him to trade me the Cruel Mythical Sword of Lapmprey he had on his druid in exchange for a very rare ethereal 6 socketed warspike I had on my pally. I'd explained to him the mechanics of how it would give his druid a 4 frame attack. Then he'd haggle back asking if its so good why do I wan't to trade it. And i'd explain to him how pallys can hit 4 frames easily, and the lamprey is a better weapon for us, but the 6 socket warspike allows druids to socket it with mutiple attack speed gems and hit 4 frames, and how because it was etheral it had higher damage than other warspikes, and was very rare. ETC ETC ETC
For Diablo PVP'ers, trying out new items, trading, chatting with pvp buddies in games, going over build strategies with different weapon setups etc.
THAT is what is fun for us. For us the hard-work part comes in during the endless trade haggling back and forth. PVE'ers may hate that crap.
You mock the idea of giving bind on equip items on a delayed 1 year or so timer. Why? How does it harm your pve experience? How? Binding was never a part of Diablo. And having it on a delayed timer would still solve the issue of rares building up in the game, whilst still giving pvp'ers access to a vital aspect of what diablo pvp'ing is all about
Just another example of what I meant when I said most pve'ers who come into threads like this are selfish. They don't even entertain ideas which do them ZERO harm, but benefit a huge part of the diablo community.
What I don't understand is why accommodations cannot be made.
Example: Why do they want to introduce Bind on Equip gear? Because over time, Rare items become more and more abundant, and their value goes down.
Fair point.
So if you don't want to have hard quests or high gold prices which allow players to unbind gear, why not have the binding of the gear on a simple delayed timer?
When an item designated for soul binding is found or crafted, it will bind to the whichever character has it after 1 year and a half. (18 months)
What this means is that for 18 months, that item can get traded around freely, even if it has been tried on by someone. But after the 18 months is up, it binds to the account of whoever was wearing it, or had it in their bags
This would allow some decent flexibility for the PVP community so that trade is not butchered, whilst solving the problem of rare items building up.
Because every day rare items would be getting soul bound. (ie items which were found/crafted 18 months ago). This means rare items are continually and constantly being removed from the market, allowing the value of rare items for the PVE crowd to remain high.
It will have the EXACT same effects in terms of curbing build up of rares, than if items were binding immediately upon equip.
Imagine a girl walking down the street, dropping flowers on the ground. Under the current instant bind on equip, it just means that there is another guy walking directly behind her who is immediately cleaning up the flowers.
But if you give a 18 month delay, it just means that the guy who is cleaning up the flowers, will wait until the girl has walked a hundred feet befre before he starts picking up the flowers she is dropping
Under both systems, the build up of rare items will be controlled effectively.
But under the delayed system, it will also allow much greater trading and sampling of items than would otherwise be possible.
A compromise that would give the PVP community breathing room, while also addressing Blizzards main concerns regarding build up of rare items in Diablo 2
See thats the problem with guys like you. Early on in the thread, you came in pretending to give partial and fair comments
But in reality, your just another snotty nosed PVE'er who doesn't care if such a crucial aspect of what Diablo PVP is about is ruined for a such a huge fanbase and the Diablo PVP community
What boggles the mind is why you must be so selfish.
If blizzard implemented a system where you could complete as series of hard quests, or farm a certain amount of Gold in order to unbind a particular item, why are you against it?
How the f*ck does it affect your PVE experience? You don't want to trade for items then don't. Go PVE to your hearts content
The whole "only items over level 85" is rediculous. PVP doesn't begin until you are max level anyway. Unless you aer some kind of twink pvp'er who wants to fight only at lvl 50, for 99% of the PVP community, they play through the campagin, enjoy the game, level up their character, and then when they hit level 99, they start the amazingly enjoyable process of wheeling an dealing in trades for better items.
A VITAL part of D2 PVP is TRYING the friggen item first. Thats the whole enjoyment of PVP. Trial and Error. You trade your sword/axe whatever to some guy who has a nice looking kris knife because you heard on the forum it is better with your build. You try out the kris knife, and if you don't like it, you trade it away to some other dude who wants it. And so the endless cycle of improvement continues.
In a hack-and-slash game the whole point is tweaking and matching gear to your hearts content. That DOESN'T WORK if you don't want to try on the weapon/gear because as soon as you do it is forever bound to you and you cannot trade it, and all the value it holds is out the window
PVE is BOOORING to me. The first or second playthough is enjoyable because the content is fresh and new. The lore, the quests, the experience of it all. PVE after a few months is BORING to me.
But thats MY opinion. I'm not going to say Blizzard should make Diablo 3 an open world of PVP so that I can go gank PVE'ers any time I want. Because that would ruin a lot of what PVE'ers find fun. IE minding their own buisness and taking down NPC bosses and finding loot. More power to ya.
But PVE'ers like you don't have the same respect. You selfishly want something as pivotal as end-game trading to be butchered by this BOE crap just because it serves your own selfish PVE needs
PVP'ers don't give a flying crap about killing a Boss you killed two days ago again. The PVE enjoyment for us is in the experience of the first few playhtoughs of the game. And after that for the next 10 years or whatever, the fun is in PVP and the ever enjoyable climb towards the most perfect gear and gear combinations. That cannot happen when items which players have used can no longer be traded, or because you are too scared to try on an item you found b/c it will forever be bound to you
PVE'ers coming and shooting down ideas an stubbornly refusing to see the obvious for their own selfish PVE reasons.
Do not delude yourself
Glance around this thread about the topic which was started a few months ago on Battlnet's forum
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=19382695902&sid=3000&pageNo=1
At least half of the people are against it. And almots always the same half. The pvp'ers don't like it, and the PVE'ers come in start advocating for the idea.
Since you guys don't like when I make long posts, or seem to even read them, let me cut the bullsh*t and say it right now
Bind on Equip is to reward PVE'ers. I hate PVE. As to most long time PVP'ers. Thats why they PVP. Clicking mindless monsters over and over, no matter how clever the AI is not fun ever, especially when you are doing the run for the 1000 time. Bind on Equip is a PVE'ers wetdream, and it is a PVP'ers nightmare. Plain and simple.
Just look at the idea I gave one or two pages ago about, making expensive gold or very hard quests to do in order to "unbind" an item . A perfectly legitimate compromise which satisfys hardcore pvp'ers, but also addresses the legitamate question of item over-inflation
But snarky pve'ers like Maka don't consider it, because the end of the day, whilst a pvp'er like myself is willing to make consolations like the suggestion I made, PVE'ers selfishly advocate it because it serves their play style
I repeat - The heart of PVP in a hack and slash, is improving your gear incrementally by slowing building up from current items. All the items inyour bag and that you are wearing, which you worked so hard for - they all have value, and help you trade for better items in the future. Bind on equip BUTCHERS this. It forces PVP'ers to become PVEers. Plain and simple.
My apartment: $100,000
My target house: 250,000
If that is your situation, you wan't to be able to sell your apartment, get the money, and then use it towards buying your new house
But bind on equip means your apartment is worthless and you will have to get the whole $250,000 from scratch. And when you enter your new house "equip new items", the whole 250,000 goes down the drain, and you can never use it to buy something again
Since people are getting rude in this thread, ill put it simply.
Permanent bind on equip is a horrible idea, and everything that is diablo, and a hamster-wheel solution which will suck the joy out of all things PVP, and is catered to PVE'ers like the ones in this thread
Firstly, do not make armor off-pieces soul bound.
Things like belts/rings/boots should not soud bind, since people trade them more often.
Only have Weapons, Chest Armors, Shields, helmets, boots as bind on equip.
However with one crucial caviat;
You can visit an blacksmith/cultist in one of the diablo towns, who will use his talents/magic to unbind the item from you so it can be traded.
However, there is a restriction. Every time you have an armor un-bound from you, it costs more and more gold to unbind other items in the future. (Blizz mentioned they are working hard on gold-sinks that will ensure gold is valuable in diablo 3)
What does this mean? It means that there will never be flooding of high end items on the market, because at some stage, it will become too expensive for players to un-bind a weapon/armor-piece again. (Maybe the first 20 unbinds are fairly cheap, and then prices start rising exponentially) The effort required to harvest all of that gold end up being not worth trading your run-off the mill rare weapons
However, this will leave some flexibility for the PVP crowd. Why? Because for many pvp'ers, some of the very high end items they desire or own, have no price tag.
If for example, I really wanted someone's cruel mythical sword of quicknes, and he really wanted my axe, we could both decide to work on getting that gold over the next two or three weeks to pay for that unbind.
That is a short-term forseeable goal which one can handle. Its not as depressing as saying "My current item is useless and has no trade value, and I have to PVE for months and months, hoping to get enough rare drops so that I can trade with someone who hasn't equipped that really nice item I want"
The items you or I have retain their intrinsic value. It just becomes a matter of working hard for a few weeks perhaps until you have enough gold to pay the blacksmith NPC to unbind it for you.
Such a system would work perfectly. It would have the best of both worlds. Items would not flood the market, because the as the game matures, the Gold-costs of unbinding items on veteran players will be so expensive, that it will not be worth the hastle of unbinding them. You will save your gold for unbinds which really matter to you. Your not gonna bother spending the two or three weeks to unbind that sorceress shaku hat. So it remains off the market.
And at the same time it allows PVP'ers not to feel as if every time they equip a rare item, it is now lost forever. In the back of their minds, they know that if they ever need to upgrade it, they can put in the time and effort needed to unbind the item, and regain its value for as a bargaining chip for a bigger package.
Sorry for the long posts. I do tend to get carried away
Suggestion # 1
- Make endlessely upward % modifiers for various rare items
Take for example the best Bow for Amazons early on. The Eagle Horn bow. A rare bow drop
Now imagine that not all eagle-horns are created equal. They are all good, but they come with fluctuating random modifiers which have no upper limit.
One eagle-horn may have 100% enhanced damage. (Highest chance to drop)
Another eagle-horn may have 101% enhanced damage (slightly lower chance to drop)
and so on and so forth
Diablo had a similar system, but it was capped. So nearly all the PVP sorceres for example were running around with perfect Shakus (head gear)
Instead of capping it, blizzard should make it endless, such that you can have a180% enhanced damage eagle-horn which has a far lower chance to drop than other eagle-horns which are already very rare.
The greater the damage% extra boost, (or life leech or whatever), the more vanishly harder the item is to drop.
Where theoretically you can have a an eaglehorn with 500% enhanced damage, but chances of it dropping are 1 in a hundred million
What am I getting at?
Think about it. Early on in the game, basic eagle horns will be the cream of the crop for amazons. Its what people will want.
One year into the game, eagle-horns will have began to flood the market as more and more people accumulate them, but all that now happens is that the higher % eaglehorns become the more desirable item for Amazons. (Example a 120% enhanced damage eagle horn)
And one year later, statistically speaking, more eaglehorns would be circulating in the game, but no problem. Because now its the 150% eagle horn which is rarer still which becomes the desirable item.
The same concept can be given to magical items for wizards or witchdoctors. Where the rare items have magical damage boosts % wise.
Or rare armors which have fluctuating % boosts to their base armor stats.
What this means is that you will never have a situation where half the sources are wearing perfect % Shakus (head gear which every sorc has).
Do you see what I'm getting at? You would never ever reach a situation where everyone is carrying the same exact items, because modifers with no upper limit, and the laws of probability, will dictate that even if the game ran for 100 years, there would still be great variety in the desirability of items between different players.
And so whether or not items flood the market becomes irrelevant, because there is such great variety in the desirability of those items themselves
A quick idea, but something to build upon
Thats even worse lol ^^