- 99% of the regular D3 players in the past oriented towards other games
- Viewers interest hit the bottom
- D3 aRPG share went from hero to zero
- A mobile Diablo game has been announced
- Diablofans is shutting down
The only missing thing from the list above is D3 servers closing down.
While we warned and written thousands of posts on the topic no one prevented what eventually happened - the paragon system completely destroyed this game to pieces. D4 guys, take notes.
It's a mess, because the paragon system creates the need for 3 types of leaderboards and we only have one:
1) The one we have right now - the mixed LB, grind + skill
2) The one the competitive players want - the skill LB, based purely on skill, with capped paragon and gem levels
3) The one the paragon lovers want - the grind LB, based purely on paragon level
Wudijo run the last week of the season clearly showed that even the best DH in the world can NOT be rank 1 and overcome the time variable on the mixed LB (case 1). Has wudijo been competing on a case 2) LB he would have reclaimed the rank 1 position again.
I personally don't expect any changes in the paragon system until the next D3 expansion (aka Q3 2017). A lot of time passed since the paragon problem has emerged and the devs didn't show any initiative at all to solve it. It's their game after all. It's their mess also.
If total xp required for P2.5k is 204324847000000, then we'll see the first P2.5k in S4 after 2 months.
Edit: And if xp P2.5k-P5.5k scales linearly, then after 100 days we'll see P3.2k, where the average player (4h/day) will be around P1.6k. This is 8000 main stat difference. And the solo player will be... Hmm no point in calcing that, I doubt anyone will play solo.
Again the problem is not in players getting advantage if they play 24/7..This is how it should be. Its the execution of this process that is problematic IMO.
The process of gaining paragon levels is one thing, the advantage of the 24/7 players with and without leaderboard competition is another thing. If blizzard want to create fair environment for the players who want to compete, some form of caps should be applied to all stats, which can be influenced by or directly botted for. Otherwise the game becomes a bot-fest with leaderboards heavily oriented toward grinding instead of skill.
The things atm are that the player pool is already quite separated on this topic. Some want endless paragon and doesn't care about competition, botting and solo mode. The other want changes. What's left for blizzard is to just give these players what they want. And since the player pool is already divided by season and non-season, they could use this and introduce another distinction between the two modes. And I can guarantee you that with the time all players will switch to the mode, where you can actually have fun with your friends instead of grinding that X paragon levels per day like a mad man to use this for 1 week before end of season/era.
There are only two true ways to continue to progress in Diablo currently - Paragon Level, and Legendary Gem level.
People who play seasons don't progress infinitely. They progress only while the season lasts. That's why a good game design would allow people who don't play 24/7 to have equal chances at seasonal competition and NOT-equal chances at non-seasonal where the progression is infinite.
It's a question of design: How to give all groups of players what they want? And there are few solutions for this already mentioned in this thread. Obviously blizzard devs will take one of them, because nobody wants to lose players.
They said in that ziggyD interview they will look into the issue, if I remember correctly. Maybe they still don't have any official solution to announce.
I'm sad that the community as a whole does not recognize the issue, but even more so that Blizzard thinks it's fine.
I think you are too pessimistic about the situation. Blizzard do recognize the issue and I expect them to make changes. Most of the players are fine with paragon and item drops as they are, because the usual player's logic is: "The more, the better". Just look how many players enjoy the boosted PTR item chances. Give them gear and paragon levels as much as possible. They will be happy for a week and then blame in the forums that the game is bad. And here really comes the role of the Diablo designers. They are those people that should take the important decisions and adjust the things so that the game's atmosphere stays adequate and offers more possibilities in terms of builds and modes, rather than in terms of botting paragon. And I expect them to change things, sooner or soonTM.
@Romonaga: Never accept things that make you insane. Fight with what you can. In this case, with opinions and posts.
I am optimistic about the whole situation tbh. A lot of closely related things (item hunt vs paragon vs leaderboards competition, xp gear and leeching vs normal play, solo vs multi, botting/huds vs fair play) need fixing and this time we don't have the trials scenario. Blizzard devs can't delay this whole mess 3 more seasons in a row. Right now they are those under pressure. If they make the wrong decisions more players will quit. It's simple as that.
Whatever the "solution" is though, it's not fair to impose something on the whole fanbase, when it only benefits a small minority of players.
Absolutely! Nobody disagrees with this. The idea is to please all the players and no one to feel unsatisfied with what the game offers him. Here are the group of players for which the current paragon/xp mechanic is a problem:
- Those who don't want paragon to be the central focus of the ranking system
- Solo-only players who want fair competition
- People who view paragon leveling as killing the other aspects of the game
- Those who don't have 18 hours a day free, but want to compete
- Players who don't enjoy certain paragon leveling mechanics (aka leeching)
- Those who hate botting (endless paragon welcomes it)
You can see for yourself what amount of the people prefer to play solo:
That (the solo players) is 80% of the players who took part in the poll. Let's say 10% of them want fair competition, the other 90% don't care about leaderboards. This equals to 8%, which won't like this mechanic. And this is only 1 group from the 6 mentioned above. Now I had to ask you to define "whole fanbase", because clearly D3 is going to lose more players than to gain from this. Remember that S4 has not started as of now and a lot of people are still not aware of this issue. If they were, they could probably find other downsides to this from their pov. So a solution is needed and I hope the devs are going to realize this during S4. At least they have the right percents. We have only those from the poll and the people writing in the forums. But for the obvious things you don't need Math at all.
@Bagstone: They can remove XP gear anytime. And I hope they do this sooner. They can't scale paragon differently until the expansion, when we will see Paragon 3.0 for sure. So there are two options for the players who don't like the current system: a) Give them one of the suggestions in my previous post OR Loose them until the expansion comes (July 2016 at earliest). It's their (the dev's) choice (I already wrote this).
@wiwh: Don't get me wrong, I like the idea death to be punishable, as in D2. It just won't happen. Also, the dev's definition of "casual players" is not something well defined. At least I came to that conclusion after watching the ZiggyD interview, in which Mr. Jang defended endless paragon. It seems the devs think a lot of casual players are going to reach P800 on season and thus capping (of whatever form) is not a good option. And I clearly don't think they are honest here. If they destroy XP gear, only the competitive players are going to make P800+ during the season. Thus logically paragon needs to be capped in order the competition to be further stimulated between these players (the 2% of all as they said in the interview). And again these 2% are NOT a priority for blizzard (also from interview), which is of course quite understandable. So we need a solution, which won't hurt in any way the casual players and at the same time will be optimal for the people who want to compete.
From my thread on the US forums here are the possible solutions suggested until now by the community:
1) Split the leaderboards in categories: Less than P400, P400 ~ P800, P800 ~ P1200 etc...
2) Don't use the main stat bonus after P800 on seasons only
3) Cap the paragon to some value (P800 for example) when entering in a GR
4) Split the GR in 2 modes - ranked and unranked. When playing ranked you will have a chance to place in the leaderboard, but atm you enter a GR your paragon will be capped to some value (as in #3). When playing unranked you will use all the advantage of your paragon, but you won't be able to place in the leaderboard.
And, again, I think #2 is the best option, because it will further separate seasonal mode from non-seasonal in a unique way. The only downside will be for the 24/7 season-only players, who won't take advantage of that main stat bonus after P800. The other 24/7 players will just go and play non-season after they reached their max times on the leaderboards. And this will be only for some weeks probably, because when GR fishing is stimulated (when the players have more time for it, instead of grinding paragon) it will be way harder to reach that #1 spot. Also this will further reduce the GR variance -> sooner or later the 24/7 players will get that dream rift.
@wiwh: Blizzard will never make death take away paragon level. This was already discussed long time ago and the devs said this would hurt the casual players.
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4 years after this thread emerged we have:
- Almost no existing non-botting playerbase
- All top competitive players left the game
- Botters to non-botters ratio hit the sky
- 9.9k paragon player
- 99% of the regular D3 players in the past oriented towards other games
- Viewers interest hit the bottom
- D3 aRPG share went from hero to zero
- A mobile Diablo game has been announced
- Diablofans is shutting down
The only missing thing from the list above is D3 servers closing down.
While we warned and written thousands of posts on the topic no one prevented what eventually happened - the paragon system completely destroyed this game to pieces. D4 guys, take notes.
See ya,
Skelos
Almost 200k views this thread, pretty nice.
Happy birthday, Thread!
The sum-up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXhYAS1Kyp8
Cheers!
It's a mess, because the paragon system creates the need for 3 types of leaderboards and we only have one:
1) The one we have right now - the mixed LB, grind + skill
2) The one the competitive players want - the skill LB, based purely on skill, with capped paragon and gem levels
3) The one the paragon lovers want - the grind LB, based purely on paragon level
Wudijo run the last week of the season clearly showed that even the best DH in the world can NOT be rank 1 and overcome the time variable on the mixed LB (case 1). Has wudijo been competing on a case 2) LB he would have reclaimed the rank 1 position again.
I personally don't expect any changes in the paragon system until the next D3 expansion (aka Q3 2017). A lot of time passed since the paragon problem has emerged and the devs didn't show any initiative at all to solve it. It's their game after all. It's their mess also.
Well, it's 2 months and a week:
http://www.diablo3.com.cn/profile/狂拽帅-5926/17832170
Just in time for BlizzCon!
The things atm are that the player pool is already quite separated on this topic. Some want endless paragon and doesn't care about competition, botting and solo mode. The other want changes. What's left for blizzard is to just give these players what they want. And since the player pool is already divided by season and non-season, they could use this and introduce another distinction between the two modes. And I can guarantee you that with the time all players will switch to the mode, where you can actually have fun with your friends instead of grinding that X paragon levels per day like a mad man to use this for 1 week before end of season/era.
It's a question of design: How to give all groups of players what they want? And there are few solutions for this already mentioned in this thread. Obviously blizzard devs will take one of them, because nobody wants to lose players.
They said in that ziggyD interview they will look into the issue, if I remember correctly. Maybe they still don't have any official solution to announce.
I think you are too pessimistic about the situation. Blizzard do recognize the issue and I expect them to make changes. Most of the players are fine with paragon and item drops as they are, because the usual player's logic is: "The more, the better". Just look how many players enjoy the boosted PTR item chances. Give them gear and paragon levels as much as possible. They will be happy for a week and then blame in the forums that the game is bad. And here really comes the role of the Diablo designers. They are those people that should take the important decisions and adjust the things so that the game's atmosphere stays adequate and offers more possibilities in terms of builds and modes, rather than in terms of botting paragon. And I expect them to change things, sooner or soonTM.
@Romonaga: Never accept things that make you insane. Fight with what you can. In this case, with opinions and posts.
I am optimistic about the whole situation tbh. A lot of closely related things (item hunt vs paragon vs leaderboards competition, xp gear and leeching vs normal play, solo vs multi, botting/huds vs fair play) need fixing and this time we don't have the trials scenario. Blizzard devs can't delay this whole mess 3 more seasons in a row. Right now they are those under pressure. If they make the wrong decisions more players will quit. It's simple as that.
Absolutely! Nobody disagrees with this. The idea is to please all the players and no one to feel unsatisfied with what the game offers him. Here are the group of players for which the current paragon/xp mechanic is a problem:
- Those who don't want paragon to be the central focus of the ranking system
- Solo-only players who want fair competition
- People who view paragon leveling as killing the other aspects of the game
- Those who don't have 18 hours a day free, but want to compete
- Players who don't enjoy certain paragon leveling mechanics (aka leeching)
- Those who hate botting (endless paragon welcomes it)
You can see for yourself what amount of the people prefer to play solo:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/3hz1kt/do_you_prefer_group_play_or_solo/
That (the solo players) is 80% of the players who took part in the poll. Let's say 10% of them want fair competition, the other 90% don't care about leaderboards. This equals to 8%, which won't like this mechanic. And this is only 1 group from the 6 mentioned above. Now I had to ask you to define "whole fanbase", because clearly D3 is going to lose more players than to gain from this. Remember that S4 has not started as of now and a lot of people are still not aware of this issue. If they were, they could probably find other downsides to this from their pov. So a solution is needed and I hope the devs are going to realize this during S4. At least they have the right percents. We have only those from the poll and the people writing in the forums. But for the obvious things you don't need Math at all.
@Bagstone: They can remove XP gear anytime. And I hope they do this sooner. They can't scale paragon differently until the expansion, when we will see Paragon 3.0 for sure. So there are two options for the players who don't like the current system: a) Give them one of the suggestions in my previous post OR Loose them until the expansion comes (July 2016 at earliest). It's their (the dev's) choice (I already wrote this).
@wiwh: Don't get me wrong, I like the idea death to be punishable, as in D2. It just won't happen. Also, the dev's definition of "casual players" is not something well defined. At least I came to that conclusion after watching the ZiggyD interview, in which Mr. Jang defended endless paragon. It seems the devs think a lot of casual players are going to reach P800 on season and thus capping (of whatever form) is not a good option. And I clearly don't think they are honest here. If they destroy XP gear, only the competitive players are going to make P800+ during the season. Thus logically paragon needs to be capped in order the competition to be further stimulated between these players (the 2% of all as they said in the interview). And again these 2% are NOT a priority for blizzard (also from interview), which is of course quite understandable. So we need a solution, which won't hurt in any way the casual players and at the same time will be optimal for the people who want to compete.
From my thread on the US forums here are the possible solutions suggested until now by the community:
1) Split the leaderboards in categories: Less than P400, P400 ~ P800, P800 ~ P1200 etc...
2) Don't use the main stat bonus after P800 on seasons only
3) Cap the paragon to some value (P800 for example) when entering in a GR
4) Split the GR in 2 modes - ranked and unranked. When playing ranked you will have a chance to place in the leaderboard, but atm you enter a GR your paragon will be capped to some value (as in #3). When playing unranked you will use all the advantage of your paragon, but you won't be able to place in the leaderboard.
And, again, I think #2 is the best option, because it will further separate seasonal mode from non-seasonal in a unique way. The only downside will be for the 24/7 season-only players, who won't take advantage of that main stat bonus after P800. The other 24/7 players will just go and play non-season after they reached their max times on the leaderboards. And this will be only for some weeks probably, because when GR fishing is stimulated (when the players have more time for it, instead of grinding paragon) it will be way harder to reach that #1 spot. Also this will further reduce the GR variance -> sooner or later the 24/7 players will get that dream rift.
@wiwh: Blizzard will never make death take away paragon level. This was already discussed long time ago and the devs said this would hurt the casual players.