here I'll end it for you guys. Your all wrong, Blizzard actually had a team of skilled proffesionals take a shit into two different boxes and BOOM! WC3 and WoW were made... there! get back on topic guys....
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Dream as if you'll live forever, and live as if you'll die today. "James Dean"
I wish their was an active moderator in this Forum so we could stop this Flaming shit about an off topic or at least move it :mad:
Thank god you're not. You are flaming most of the time (when someone disagrees with you). Offtopic or not, insulting anyone and everyone isnt the way to work as a moderator.
But there really is a need for more moderators on the forums and i give you right to that.
dude, make sense
Whats the point in making two warcraft rpg kinda games at the same time?
Warcraft 3 = RTS with some RPG elements
World of Warcraft = MMORPG
this doesnt look the same to me.
Listen to someone that was there on E3 2002 and listened to the devs as they talked about it. (NoExplanation) There wouldnt be a chance for a completely new developer team to be assembled in so little time (2000-2001 when they had the first gameplay demo) and get the "other way" working so fast.
Whats the point in making two warcraft rpg kinda games at the same time?
Warcraft 3 = RTS with some RPG elements
World of Warcraft = MMORPG
Listen to someone that was there on E3 2002 and listened to the devs as they talked about it. There wouldnt be a chance for a completely new developer team to be assembled in so little time (2000-2001 when they had the first gameplay demo) and get the "other way" working so fast.
Personal insults due to the lack of valid points need to be restricted, though.
you know the right words to get someone to start an argument with you lol
Also I have only flamed on one topic....
Quote from "FingolfinGR" »
now from the first quote (you did quote that) you come to your conclusion and you tell me you make sense? Only God of War is connected to Greek Mythology you idiot, cause its SETTING IS IT. Lord of the Rings is in Middle-Earth, and i dont recall elves in ancient Greece. Tolkien might have taken some ideas (in Christianity, northern cultures and more too) but its not related to that. Now how you connected Star Wars to that, only you could know. Your quote mostly chose things that cant be connected.
this is the one thing you said that made you wrong..... just because the setting isnt in ancient greece doesnt mean that almost all Sci-Fi or fiction games use Greek Mythology as a starting point for most monsters People Names and events. I never said Star Wars or LoTR were greek related why did you even say that? Hint Hint Their movies we are talking about D1 D2 and D3 here....
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Dream as if you'll live forever, and live as if you'll die today. "James Dean"
Not at all trying to fuel the flame, but the off-top discussion (what was actually legible) was actually interesting. While I don't agree with doppel, I can see how he would come to the conclusions that he did. Because I am a larger Warcraft fan than any other blizzard franchise I did follow the creation of all these games very closely (nothing that close untill the announce of Warhammer online).
Warcraft3 was always intended to be an RTS with the new idea of using an RPG hero setting, and --Important statement-- WoW was always its own seperate game that was under creation at the same time (though it is the same franchise and may be confused as a cool spinoff of an 'oops' idea, it is much like how starcraft or diablo was under development at the same time as the Warcraft RTS's, Fingolfin made a good point how Blizzard doesn't just 'accidently' create new games.)
WoW was never an accident or a spinoff of Blizzard going too crazy with the RPG aspects of an RTS. Because they were under creation at the same time, they did not want to overshadow either so they drew back the RPG aspects of Warcraft 3 so WoW could have the full attention of people interested in that sort of gameplay. They have similar graphics because they wanted to tie the two together as an 'oh cool' factor so people could look at one thing in either game and say "Oh cool, that looks like the other game".
It was mentioned earlier in the thread that WoW is not part of the RTS franchise, I believe the word that the person who made that assumption is looking for is "Genre". Franchise denotes the universe in which the characters of all associated games are in, whereas Genre denotes the style of the game such as RTS/MMO/FPS/Sports (God forbid they murder Warcraft like Capcom did Mega-man and make a Warcraft Soccer.)
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Now, going back on topic I would hope Diablo 3 is not an MMO. If anything, I would believe it is not Blizzard North's wish (which by the way most employees split off because they were dissatisfied with Blizzard farming WoW for a good year and a half instead of continuing game creation and started their own seperate production of a diablo-style game named Mythos). If you recall they canned production of 'Starcraft Ghost' because they wanted all of their production and attention on coming up with ideas/story lines/patches/and pumping out an expansion instead of continuing with a seperate game. If they do create a Diablo MMO it is Vivendi pulling the strings of Blizzard forcing the creation of another money farm (Vivendi owns rights to Blizzard and other gaming companys). I would really hope they create another 2-d world and 3-d PC/NPC characters just continuing the current story line or exploring the story line of the Sin Wars.
You have like a memory of a few minutes, i said WoW came from the further development of Warcraft 3 (the rps) like Warcraft 3 came and you started debating against that.
Okay, so you're saying that WC3 was first and WoW was second. Let's take a look back:
they ALREADY planned on making a WoW before they started with Warcraft 3.
Woah. Hold on. We've got a paradox on our hands. In otherwords, a seemingly contradictory statement. Goes to show that Doppelganger knew I was right and changed his argument so he could keep going. He might have succeeded if I didn't have such a great bullshit detector.
I'll finish this tomorrow. I've got an English final to ace in the morning. I'll leave this food for thought, so you can all see that Doppelganger loves to cop out when the going gets rough.
I believe its quite logical to not want to make two supposedly 'different' games too much alike. I guess I just don't understand what it is you're saying. You say they were completely different games from the start, WoW infact being in production before Warcraft3 (as from Muttonshops quote of you), and you saying earlier in on page 18 that WoW would not be unless they didnt take the elements from Warcraft3.
Quote from "Doppelganger" »
You have like a memory of a few minutes, i said WoW came from the further development of Warcraft 3
Edit: Added the quote/Re-read the full quote mutton posted, I see where it comes from now.
I probably won't post more than this because I don't care enough heh, but MMO's no doubt take alot longer to create than any other type of game, Also considering the entire landmass of the Burning Crusade and the upcoming expansion (Northrend) were already in game during launch (If you don't believe me WarcraftMovies.com has some oldschool exploration movies where people created their own private servers and ran around these areas). I find it quite hard to believe that WoW being released so quickly after Frozen Throne which was already a quick expansion that it was completely taken up and rendered while Warcraft3 was nearing completion, which would be where the aspect of being to much like an RPG would arise.
Oh I see now, I dunno, it is possible I suppose, I just don't think the graphics are as similar for them to be the same game. The things look alike just because they are part of the same world. Just basic graphical rendering would take them longer than it did since WoW PC/NPCs arent nearly as riged character models as the Warcraft3 counterparts.
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Trying to get back on topic, I promise :D, would people like Diablo3 to be another MMO?
That seems to be the consensus, most people from Diablo didnt go to WoW because they dont want to do the 15 buck a month, they would only release it as another MMO if they knew WoW was dying out. Scarey part is, is that since the expansion its actually started.
Now we know how big of a fucking lyer Mutton needs to be to try and break me.
This is the full sentence of me on page 13 he quoted:
Haha, okay, that time I can admit, that I was yankin' your chain. I accidentally erased my post on copy and paste and I decided to mess with you. Don't take it too seriously. You'll miss the bigger issue. You're still wrong.
Point is, you're wrong if you now think that WC3 was, at any point, an MMORPG. I dare you to call up Rob Pardo. Even he would tell you you're full of shit. I implore you to find one sentence in any source that you looked over an find Rob Pardo saying something along the lines of "WC3 was originally an MMORPG". I'm not going to go the extra mile for a dolt like you. Look at it yourself, and you'll see how wrong you are. No one agrees with you. Your sources disprove that WC3 was an MMORPG, and you've copped out twice, thus far.
Anyways, I'll make my grand exit as the victor and we can return to the main topic at hand.
1998: blizzard releases starcraft and decides to start warcraft III
1999: work on warcraft 3...
2000: after two years in development blizzard decides that the current warcraft III does not fit the RTS theme of the previous warcrafts... it appears as more of a RPG (more hero involvement, questing, suggestion of small armies) they decide to revamp it[while still using the same graphics engine, duh] and make it more of an RTS (still using the hero aspect [ since it was a good idea])
2001-2002: they fix warcraft 3
July 3, 2002: they release reign of chaos
2002-2003: balance work on the new units/heroes into frozen throne
july 1, 2003: they release the frozen throne
now i dont really know where wow fits into this at all.. but i believe that article floating around is talking about what i said up there /\
if someone can fit WoW in and fix this timeline; please do
Thats why logics are on my side, they where already two years in development of Warcraft 3 before the big changes and the two directions.
2 years in the Warcraft 3 development (means by year 2000) and then they split the game in "2 ways". So WoW and Warcraft 3, thats what you say.
And to that, come the first gameplay videos of WoW in year 2001 to prove you wrong. Its impossible to make a working MMO in 1 year from an RTS.
anyway, apparently you're too stubborn to understand it so i'll rather stop this. And i wont bother talking about Blades11 cause i'll insult him only because it comes natural (and feels right too).
back on the real topic, its really easy to make a point:
As World of Warcraft (the MMO Warcraft) wasnt Warcraft 4 (part of the RTS series), so a Diablo MMO cant be Diablo 3 (a part of the RPG/Hack & Slash series). Simple as that.
(it started by a statement like that i think cause Doppel said "its not Warcraft 4 cause it was Warcraft 3 and there came the mess i think - but please lets not start it again)
As World of Warcraft (the MMO Warcraft) wasnt Warcraft 4 (part of the RTS series), so a Diablo MMO cant be Diablo 3 (a part of the RPG/Hack & Slash series).
A smash hit MMO, but the lamest hack'n'slash ever.
MMO's do not just have to be target and click on keybinds that take seconds, and focus firing e v e r y single monster, or you wipe. You can make it and MMO and it will feel just like the other Diablos. The only differences is more players, a bigger world, monsters will respawn. You will be able to left/right click, and use keybinds like usual, its 111% possible to pull off.
If Diablo was an MMO, you wouldn't be fighting Elites all the time, they would be rare/boss like in Diablo (Duh!).. you will be fighting lots of weaker monsters, like in Diablo!(duh!=P) Think of WoW for example, make pretty much every ability instant, and now make all the monsters Very weak, but hordes of them like in Diablo. The bosses will be Elite like (1+ players to kill)
Now, we don't know if its gonna be Diablo 3, a Diablo style MMO(thats what I described), or a WoW style (pretty much what you were thinking of)
Either way, Wow-style, or Diablo-style MMO, no matter what: smash hit. =P
the Diablo gameplay is nothing like all known MMORPGs. Even the way the MMOs are now there is frame lag when many people cast complicated spells. Especially the mage aoe spells in WoW can drop the frames of everyone. And that with only 25 people in group and around 10-15 mobs around (thinking of a certain boss fight). Now imagine that thing with 3-4 mages (usual amount in raid) and around 30-40 enemies (usual Diablo amount of enemies). And of course more people around, since an MMO needs a world and cant have everything instant. If its too easy to kill (in non instanced place) the respawn rate would have to be huge, and the looting process would be impossible. Or there would only be dead mobs around and people would wait to ninja tag mobs right on respawn. No, to have a Diablo MMO it would have to follow the regular MMO rules. It couldnt be as fast paced as the normal Hack & Slash series.
the Diablo gameplay is nothing like all known MMORPGs. Even the way the MMOs are now there is frame lag when many people cast complicated spells. Especially the mage aoe spells in WoW can drop the frames of everyone. And that with only 25 people in group and around 10-15 mobs around (thinking of a certain boss fight). Now imagine that thing with 3-4 mages (usual amount in raid) and around 30-40 enemies (usual Diablo amount of enemies). And of course more people around, since an MMO needs a world and cant have everything instant. If its too easy to kill (in non instanced place) the respawn rate would have to be huge, and the looting process would be impossible. Or there would only be dead mobs around and people would wait to ninja tag mobs right on respawn. No, to have a Diablo MMO it would have to follow the regular MMO rules. It couldnt be as fast paced as the normal Hack & Slash series.
Good points =P
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Thank god you're not. You are flaming most of the time (when someone disagrees with you). Offtopic or not, insulting anyone and everyone isnt the way to work as a moderator.
But there really is a need for more moderators on the forums and i give you right to that.
dude, make sense
Warcraft 3 = RTS with some RPG elements
World of Warcraft = MMORPG
this doesnt look the same to me.
Listen to someone that was there on E3 2002 and listened to the devs as they talked about it. (NoExplanation) There wouldnt be a chance for a completely new developer team to be assembled in so little time (2000-2001 when they had the first gameplay demo) and get the "other way" working so fast.
Warcraft 3 = RTS with some RPG elements
World of Warcraft = MMORPG
Listen to someone that was there on E3 2002 and listened to the devs as they talked about it. There wouldnt be a chance for a completely new developer team to be assembled in so little time (2000-2001 when they had the first gameplay demo) and get the "other way" working so fast.
Also I have only flamed on one topic....
this is the one thing you said that made you wrong..... just because the setting isnt in ancient greece doesnt mean that almost all Sci-Fi or fiction games use Greek Mythology as a starting point for most monsters People Names and events. I never said Star Wars or LoTR were greek related why did you even say that? Hint Hint Their movies we are talking about D1 D2 and D3 here....
Warcraft3 was always intended to be an RTS with the new idea of using an RPG hero setting, and --Important statement-- WoW was always its own seperate game that was under creation at the same time (though it is the same franchise and may be confused as a cool spinoff of an 'oops' idea, it is much like how starcraft or diablo was under development at the same time as the Warcraft RTS's, Fingolfin made a good point how Blizzard doesn't just 'accidently' create new games.)
WoW was never an accident or a spinoff of Blizzard going too crazy with the RPG aspects of an RTS. Because they were under creation at the same time, they did not want to overshadow either so they drew back the RPG aspects of Warcraft 3 so WoW could have the full attention of people interested in that sort of gameplay. They have similar graphics because they wanted to tie the two together as an 'oh cool' factor so people could look at one thing in either game and say "Oh cool, that looks like the other game".
It was mentioned earlier in the thread that WoW is not part of the RTS franchise, I believe the word that the person who made that assumption is looking for is "Genre". Franchise denotes the universe in which the characters of all associated games are in, whereas Genre denotes the style of the game such as RTS/MMO/FPS/Sports (God forbid they murder Warcraft like Capcom did Mega-man and make a Warcraft Soccer.)
---------
Now, going back on topic I would hope Diablo 3 is not an MMO. If anything, I would believe it is not Blizzard North's wish (which by the way most employees split off because they were dissatisfied with Blizzard farming WoW for a good year and a half instead of continuing game creation and started their own seperate production of a diablo-style game named Mythos). If you recall they canned production of 'Starcraft Ghost' because they wanted all of their production and attention on coming up with ideas/story lines/patches/and pumping out an expansion instead of continuing with a seperate game. If they do create a Diablo MMO it is Vivendi pulling the strings of Blizzard forcing the creation of another money farm (Vivendi owns rights to Blizzard and other gaming companys). I would really hope they create another 2-d world and 3-d PC/NPC characters just continuing the current story line or exploring the story line of the Sin Wars.
Edit: Added the info about Starcraft Ghost
Okay, so you're saying that WC3 was first and WoW was second. Let's take a look back:
Woah. Hold on. We've got a paradox on our hands. In otherwords, a seemingly contradictory statement. Goes to show that Doppelganger knew I was right and changed his argument so he could keep going. He might have succeeded if I didn't have such a great bullshit detector.
I'll finish this tomorrow. I've got an English final to ace in the morning. I'll leave this food for thought, so you can all see that Doppelganger loves to cop out when the going gets rough.
Edit: Added the quote/Re-read the full quote mutton posted, I see where it comes from now.
I probably won't post more than this because I don't care enough heh, but MMO's no doubt take alot longer to create than any other type of game, Also considering the entire landmass of the Burning Crusade and the upcoming expansion (Northrend) were already in game during launch (If you don't believe me WarcraftMovies.com has some oldschool exploration movies where people created their own private servers and ran around these areas). I find it quite hard to believe that WoW being released so quickly after Frozen Throne which was already a quick expansion that it was completely taken up and rendered while Warcraft3 was nearing completion, which would be where the aspect of being to much like an RPG would arise.
-------
Trying to get back on topic, I promise :D, would people like Diablo3 to be another MMO?
Point is, you're wrong if you now think that WC3 was, at any point, an MMORPG. I dare you to call up Rob Pardo. Even he would tell you you're full of shit. I implore you to find one sentence in any source that you looked over an find Rob Pardo saying something along the lines of "WC3 was originally an MMORPG". I'm not going to go the extra mile for a dolt like you. Look at it yourself, and you'll see how wrong you are. No one agrees with you. Your sources disprove that WC3 was an MMORPG, and you've copped out twice, thus far.
Anyways, I'll make my grand exit as the victor and we can return to the main topic at hand.
1998: blizzard releases starcraft and decides to start warcraft III
1999: work on warcraft 3...
2000: after two years in development blizzard decides that the current warcraft III does not fit the RTS theme of the previous warcrafts... it appears as more of a RPG (more hero involvement, questing, suggestion of small armies) they decide to revamp it[while still using the same graphics engine, duh] and make it more of an RTS (still using the hero aspect [ since it was a good idea])
2001-2002: they fix warcraft 3
July 3, 2002: they release reign of chaos
2002-2003: balance work on the new units/heroes into frozen throne
july 1, 2003: they release the frozen throne
now i dont really know where wow fits into this at all.. but i believe that article floating around is talking about what i said up there /\
if someone can fit WoW in and fix this timeline; please do
like switch said, we just want an announcement!
2 years in the Warcraft 3 development (means by year 2000) and then they split the game in "2 ways". So WoW and Warcraft 3, thats what you say.
And to that, come the first gameplay videos of WoW in year 2001 to prove you wrong. Its impossible to make a working MMO in 1 year from an RTS.
anyway, apparently you're too stubborn to understand it so i'll rather stop this. And i wont bother talking about Blades11 cause i'll insult him only because it comes natural (and feels right too).
back on the real topic, its really easy to make a point:
As World of Warcraft (the MMO Warcraft) wasnt Warcraft 4 (part of the RTS series), so a Diablo MMO cant be Diablo 3 (a part of the RPG/Hack & Slash series). Simple as that.
(it started by a statement like that i think cause Doppel said "its not Warcraft 4 cause it was Warcraft 3 and there came the mess i think - but please lets not start it again)
You have a very good point there, FingolfinGR.
Ordo et Progressus
MMO's do not just have to be target and click on keybinds that take seconds, and focus firing e v e r y single monster, or you wipe. You can make it and MMO and it will feel just like the other Diablos. The only differences is more players, a bigger world, monsters will respawn. You will be able to left/right click, and use keybinds like usual, its 111% possible to pull off.
If Diablo was an MMO, you wouldn't be fighting Elites all the time, they would be rare/boss like in Diablo (Duh!).. you will be fighting lots of weaker monsters, like in Diablo!(duh!=P) Think of WoW for example, make pretty much every ability instant, and now make all the monsters Very weak, but hordes of them like in Diablo. The bosses will be Elite like (1+ players to kill)
Now, we don't know if its gonna be Diablo 3, a Diablo style MMO(thats what I described), or a WoW style (pretty much what you were thinking of)
Either way, Wow-style, or Diablo-style MMO, no matter what: smash hit. =P
I can't wait for Blizzon.
Good points =P