Toast's builds (No hatred gen DH)

  • #1
    I see many builds being thrown around the forums and I personally thought I should join the fray. After playing the beta, and having prior experience with dungoneering games in general, (anyone remember Gauntlet? ) I have come up with, quite a few, builds that I am going to throw to the wolves to get tested when this comes out. But before I do that I would like to know what others think of them. Remember DPS aint everything if you die!

    Also there is a special treat build that I have not seen before (at least in a "I can prove it works" fashion). One using absolutely no hatred generators and it remains completely viable to sustain DPS without relying on RNG to get crits.

    ~~

    To start off will be the monk. What a wonderful class I have found this to be. Regardless of how much I like it I still have problems building something I like without having any doubts.

    The first build is something of a quite powerful tanking build. It is designed for multiplayer PvE with a high focus on dodge and crit. Preferably you are the only melee in the party because most of the dps comes from damage back mechanics. Starting with Cyclone Strike and Serenity insures you have the tanking ability to survive the initial amount of high damage while still being able to dish out damage of your own. Following that up with the Rune on the mantra and the passive for dodge this build can mitigate some serious damage while dishing it back out as well.

    http://us.battle.net...XQSb!ZWV!YYacaZ

    I have two other monk builds but they are very typical builds and I will not bore anyone with the details.

    ~~

    Wizard. A class I thought I would dislike but it has grown on me. Much more than the monk has at least. In all honesty the monk is loosing its luster to the Wizard and the DH as time goes on.

    I have two builds I love. The first is a very "turret" happy build. The idea is to use disintegrate on everything. To go along with the theme the move that pairs up nicely with it would be Ray of Frost acting as a signature spell from the gem. The build in general does two things well, single target and line AOE. For general AOE purposes there is obviously Comet(that can be changed out for blizzard or arcane barrage). To mitigate the loss of armor from Glass Cannon I put in Arcane Armor and to top it off teleport (who doesn't love porting?)

    http://us.battle.net...mQOi!YZd!bZZYcY

    The second build is another one of those interesting ones. I guess I can say it is the "challenge mode" wizard. The idea is because of the gem on disintegrate the wizard is forced into closer range. So for good measure Diamond Armor and Archon are used with AOE runes on them and Wave of Force is taken because of its high damage potential along with utility purposes. The utilities were also chosen with surviveability in mind. ofc Energy Armor was also a must for this one.

    http://us.battle.net...cVmQ!SUd!caZaaY

    ~~

    WD, well there is not much I can say. Kinda like the class but kinda don't. Have a funny build though. Should I rune ALL THE SPELLS for healing? (purely interested in what your reaction is when you see it)


    http://us.battle.net...gejU!UVe!cYaYca

    ~~~

    DH. The class you probably came here to see because of the title. Obviously this has become my favorite class or else why would I leave it to the end? Regardless lets get to this.


    Rockets... what can I say? I love the idea and the graphic looked cool at blizzcon so I'm all for them. I don't like grenades though, and for those of you not in the know there is a passive that make them synergize quite nicely with a Explosive Shot. Regardless here is the build. Shadow Power is fun but discipline is already being spent on Sentry and Vault (because of a lack of slows) so it had to be cut. The standard AOE (multi shot) and single target (rapid fire) are both there along with the big DPS CD. I thought about what hatred generator to use and it really is an open option that I am still on the fence about so suggestions would be wonderful.

    http://us.battle.net...SXjd!ZVS!YYcccb

    Now for the typical "hurp durp DH build" I do have to add though that it does have a little bit of a difference. There is no vault or avoidance because of rune on Elemental Arrow. The idea was to keep at least most of them slowed between using Rapid Fire or Seeking Arrow.

    http://us.battle.net...lXTU!hVY!YZYYbZ

    Ahh time for the build that made me want to post this thread in the first place. Please note there is a decent amount of theroycrafting to this one. Much more than the others. There will be math.

    Edited(had the wrong link sorry guys)http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#SVlXTk!hVb!aZYYZZ

    That is the build. Now you are thinking "what the hell am I looking at?" Well I will tell you. DH as two resource systems. From what we know right now they cap at 125 and 30 and generate at 4 and 1 per second respectively. The build is based around Preparation and the rune it has and the passive to increase max Hatred.

    Now assume you go into the fight with 0 Hatred and only 21 Discipline (the amount to cast preparation) and start off by casting prep. After 21 more seconds you have enough Discipline to cast prep once again to get your hatred back. So let's see exactly how much hatred you get every 21 seconds.

    With a passive 4 Hatred per sec for 21 seconds you get 84 Hatred. Add that to the 175 from prep and we are gaining 251H every 21 seconds! Most DH would look at this and say "well this is not enough to sustain me!" Well I have come to tell you that you are wrong.

    While using a crossbow (most of you should know this is 1.1 attacks per second) you use less Hatred over time than with any other combination. So knowing this and after doing the math using a move like Elemental Arrow or Rapid Fire a DH uses 231H over those 21 seconds! So over 21 seconds your net total is a GAIN of 20H. This means you can still use armor that increases your attack speed and still have the hatred generation to support these attacks.

    Thus this build is completely able to sustain its DPS as long as your main weapon is 1.1 speed!

    Edit: If you made it this far I applaud you and give you a cookie
    (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
    h-o-p-e-s.net
    ┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
    Sorry had to fix that table.
  • #2
    Going to add this in now. The last DH build, the one with no hatred generators. I do not know if Rapid Fire fires at a faster speed than your attack speed. I do know it scales but I have not been able to figure out how many times per second it fires compared to the average speed. So in lieu of this I will say that skill is up in the air for now and I will come back and change it if I find out otherwise.
    (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
    h-o-p-e-s.net
    ┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
    Sorry had to fix that table.
  • #3
    What about +atk speed on gear? You just wouldnt take any (much)?
  • #4
    Quote from Ellypse

    What about +atk speed on gear? You just wouldnt take any (much)?


    Good point but from the numbers you get an extra 20 hatred every 21 seconds that does not get spent. Even if you get enough attack speed to push that out there is a little saving grace that I forgot to mention.

    Edit: did the math. If you have a 1.2 speed weapon you get 252 Hatred spent using elemental arrow for the full 21 sec (with rounding). This means you can not take over 9% attack speed bonus or you start to use hatred faster than you generate it. However...

    The preparation skill is runed for 21D for the cast at a level 4 rune. At level 4 this build is sustainable but pushing the levels higher, up to the max of 7. I bet the cos will drop to at least 18D (assuming starting at 25D at level 1, 21D at level 4 and 18D at level 7) This than generates the 251H down to every 18 seconds and the hatred cost for 18 seconds to be 217.8 (for Elemental Arrow and 1.1 speed) giving you even more breathing room to play with.

    Just did the math for 1.4 speed and you have 252 hatred spent and 251 hatred gained.

    To get 1.4 speed you need to have 27.27% attack speed bonus on top of a 1.1 weapon. Seems like quite a large buffer of speeds to me.

    Edit: so yes at lower rune values (4-5) I would try to avoid attack speed bonuses higher than 10% but getting to the higher values you do not have to care as much and can start going much more for it. Actually I would say to maximize damage you need to be shooting for very specific values of attack speed to make sure you do not waste hatred! (I will get better numbers for this posted tomorrow when I'm not so tired)
    (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
    h-o-p-e-s.net
    ┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
    Sorry had to fix that table.
  • #5
    Interesting builds there, the only one I didn't like was the WD, but as you said it's not your favorite of the classes so you probably didn't spend a whole lot of time on it.

    Incoming long ass post...

    Wizard:

    The only issue I really see here is that with disintigrate and meteor (comet) your going to have an issue with AP. Your only way to slow spread out monsters is meteor, but then you won't be able to use Disintigrate as long, which won't be too big of an issue since RoF will also slow, but its something you may want to think about. Frost Nova has no requirement for AP, and would accomplish the same thing, and can be runed to give you more damage. Then again with the Temporal Flux passive, you could change the runestone in meteor to one for more damage and rely on disintigrate to slow your enemies.

    I've been on the fence about RoF since they nerfed it. Someone on the b.net forums had a good point about it. While I don't think it's an error since they updated the calculator with the last bit of changes, but it just seems odd to me that RoF would have a 0 cost with a lvl 4 runestone. There are two explanations to this, one being that there are changing the max level of runestones to 4, but idk about that, its a guess and its out of left field so it doesn't seem likely. The other is that it will actually return extra AP beyond level 4, which would substantially raise it's value and give it a good enough reason to be back in my builds after. I just feel like the nerf to it's damage was too extreme, so I went to disintigrate, but I like the use of both a great deal.

    Monk:

    Good tanking build, I like it. The only thing I didn't really like about it was Alabaster in Breath of Heaven. If your going for a tank like build, you don't want to be sending the enemies running away from you, since threat is done by proximity, you could send a group of monsters right into your other group members causing them to take more damage negating the fact that you just healed them. Other then that though great build. I like Indigo and Crimson for Breath instead though depending on if you need more healing, and if not the damage would be nice. Although obsidian could end up being more damage if it is 12% from everyone not just you.

    DH:

    I don't really like Hungering Arrow for a PvE build, the runestone that splits it is decent though, it's just that it's utility in PvE is way out done by other options. The chance for it to bounce more than once are really small, and anything more than two is so unlikely that it wouldn't be worth thinking it could even do it. (For PvP its a bit better but it's utility comes from it being a guided shot.) I really like ES because of the "chain" damage. Once the targets are chained together successive shots damage all chained targets, if this holds on release and works with the Chain Gang runestone it's easily the best generator in terms of AoE. Bola Shot with Obsidian could be good if the chance to stun is a chance against all that it damage, not just the initial target, if not it requires more maintainance to match the utility of ES.

    As for your crazy no generator build, my initial thought was that it was totally gonna fail. After looking at the full post though, it doesn't seem as bad. I like it. But I have a few concerns. The first, is Rapid Fire. Posts on the other forums from earlier tests said that rapid fire shot at 6 times your normal attack speed, which will drain your hatred pretty quickly. I'm not sure if that is still the case though, and I didn't do the math on how fast that means you'd run our of hatred, so the numbers may show it to not be an issue.

    I wonder at the choice for runestone in rapid fire. It mentions an ADDITIONAL chance to pierce, but I see nowhere that it says there is chance to pierce in the first place. So I wonder if it's just an odd choice in phrasing or I'm missing something, I generally really like Rapid Fire, but this would give it a really new level of use if it pierces.

    I'm assuming your choice of RoV is because they are guided arrows? If so then okay, but for that much hatred cost, IDK if it will be worthwhile, since you'll have to be really careful about when you use it since your relying on passive regen, I would be more secure using something like Golden with the stun and way higher damage for moments against extremely large groups of mobs.

    I'm also assuming companion was sheerly for a bit of added control that does a bit more sustained damage than something like caltrops? In general I really feel like this is another PvP talent, at least runed like you have it, but it seems to work for you since you really need the control with the build you have. All in all though it seems like it will be a really good build at least to start, and will get better as better runestones are attained, I like it.

    PS warned you it was a long reply....

    Tired of the same regurgitated blue posts? Want more in depth coverage of
    the aspects of the game you want to know about? Check us out!
  • #6
    Quote from Damerflinn

    Interesting builds there, the only one I didn't like was the WD, but as you said it's not your favorite of the classes so you probably didn't spend a whole lot of time on it.

    Incoming long ass post...

    Wizard:

    The only issue I really see here is that with disintigrate and meteor (comet) your going to have an issue with AP. Your only way to slow spread out monsters is meteor, but then you won't be able to use Disintigrate as long, which won't be too big of an issue since RoF will also slow, but its something you may want to think about. Frost Nova has no requirement for AP, and would accomplish the same thing, and can be runed to give you more damage. Then again with the Temporal Flux passive, you could change the runestone in meteor to one for more damage and rely on disintigrate to slow your enemies.

    I've been on the fence about RoF since they nerfed it. Someone on the b.net forums had a good point about it. While I don't think it's an error since they updated the calculator with the last bit of changes, but it just seems odd to me that RoF would have a 0 cost with a lvl 4 runestone. There are two explanations to this, one being that there are changing the max level of runestones to 4, but idk about that, its a guess and its out of left field so it doesn't seem likely. The other is that it will actually return extra AP beyond level 4, which would substantially raise it's value and give it a good enough reason to be back in my builds after. I just feel like the nerf to it's damage was too extreme, so I went to disintigrate, but I like the use of both a great deal.

    Monk:

    Good tanking build, I like it. The only thing I didn't really like about it was Alabaster in Breath of Heaven. If your going for a tank like build, you don't want to be sending the enemies running away from you, since threat is done by proximity, you could send a group of monsters right into your other group members causing them to take more damage negating the fact that you just healed them. Other then that though great build. I like Indigo and Crimson for Breath instead though depending on if you need more healing, and if not the damage would be nice. Although obsidian could end up being more damage if it is 12% from everyone not just you.

    DH:

    I don't really like Hungering Arrow for a PvE build, the runestone that splits it is decent though, it's just that it's utility in PvE is way out done by other options. The chance for it to bounce more than once are really small, and anything more than two is so unlikely that it wouldn't be worth thinking it could even do it. (For PvP its a bit better but it's utility comes from it being a guided shot.) I really like ES because of the "chain" damage. Once the targets are chained together successive shots damage all chained targets, if this holds on release and works with the Chain Gang runestone it's easily the best generator in terms of AoE. Bola Shot with Obsidian could be good if the chance to stun is a chance against all that it damage, not just the initial target, if not it requires more maintainance to match the utility of ES.

    As for your crazy no generator build, my initial thought was that it was totally gonna fail. After looking at the full post though, it doesn't seem as bad. I like it. But I have a few concerns. The first, is Rapid Fire. Posts on the other forums from earlier tests said that rapid fire shot at 6 times your normal attack speed, which will drain your hatred pretty quickly. I'm not sure if that is still the case though, and I didn't do the math on how fast that means you'd run our of hatred, so the numbers may show it to not be an issue.

    I wonder at the choice for runestone in rapid fire. It mentions an ADDITIONAL chance to pierce, but I see nowhere that it says there is chance to pierce in the first place. So I wonder if it's just an odd choice in phrasing or I'm missing something, I generally really like Rapid Fire, but this would give it a really new level of use if it pierces.

    I'm assuming your choice of RoV is because they are guided arrows? If so then okay, but for that much hatred cost, IDK if it will be worthwhile, since you'll have to be really careful about when you use it since your relying on passive regen, I would be more secure using something like Golden with the stun and way higher damage for moments against extremely large groups of mobs.

    I'm also assuming companion was sheerly for a bit of added control that does a bit more sustained damage than something like caltrops? In general I really feel like this is another PvP talent, at least runed like you have it, but it seems to work for you since you really need the control with the build you have. All in all though it seems like it will be a really good build at least to start, and will get better as better runestones are attained, I like it.

    PS warned you it was a long reply....


    Oh I don't mind. I love the input on the builds.

    For the wizard you make some good points about AP and the regen from RoF. I did not really think about the rune ranks when putting together the build. Also you mentioned the slow from Meteor. The idea was to have some added AOE output but I can see what you mean with the slows and how there are better options. I'll have to take a look at the build later since I have been mainly focusing on the DH and Monk builds.

    Also thanks for the catch with the Monk build. I had not noticed that before. I'll make some changes and post them after I get some of my school work done.

    The DH I am a little sorry about the builds. I changed the first build a few times since then and had not actually posted the changes. One of them was what you mentioned with Entangling Shot + Indigo rune. I decided that would be a better generator because of the utility and higher base damage. The no generator build was also changed quite a few times but I never made the changes here because after putting quite a lot of time and work into it I felt it deserved its own post. It does not even use Rapid Fire because there is no way to sustain it... well I should add there is a new way to go about no generator that I did not realize before and I was going to check how long Rapid Fire can be sustained with that particular build.

    You can find it here http://www.diablofans.com/topic/34341-no-hatred-generators/

    Sorry for not updating the DH builds right away I seem to have a huge lack of time these days :x
    (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
    h-o-p-e-s.net
    ┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
    Sorry had to fix that table.
  • #7
    For your Monk: I would swap indigo rune for crippling wave. I am not sure about the math, but I would think that the damage reduction is going to help your survivability more than extending the slow effect out 17 yards since you should have used cyclone strike to draw the enemies in close to you. Also, unless you plan on constantly casting your mantra (which I don't think you will have the spirit for) you are going to want something that gives you more dodge. I would suggest swapping Blinding Flash in for Breath of Heaven with a yellow or blue rune for increased dodge chance, and to substitute your lack of healing I would swap the Guardians Path for Transcendence. Blinding Flash will give you more dodge than the passive and heal you at the same time.

    First Wizard: I like the potential for this build, you will just need to heard enemies into choke points to be really effective. Quickly swapping between Disintegrate and Frost Ray with Meteor on the ground will theoretically reduce the movement speed to less than 0%. It will be interesting to see how the stacking effects are applied.

    Second Wizard: I really think you need Blur instead of Astral Presence. The build isn't all that Arcane heavy so you shouldn't need Astral Presence. In addition to that I would put Ray of Frost in for Disintegrate with blue rune so you get 360 slow, and I think it is the coolest ability I have seen so far. I think that Energy Armor should be swapped out for Ice Armor with a yellow rune, which will give you more armor. Lastly I would put Teleport in for Wave of Force with a red rune so you can get into range while still having some nice burst.

    WD: Looks fun to me, might change some runes for personal playstyle, but I like the idea.

    Rocket DH: I had this same general idea, here is my build http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#eYPXSj!bcS!YcYccc

    Second DH: I don't like Steady Aim on this build because I feel like the lack of Vault and only 1 slow won't always keep you far enough away. I would change Steady Aim for Cull the Weak because the damage bonus is better and change Hungering Arrow to Entangling Shot with red rune. Basically I think the slows will probably keep the monsters far enough off you, but even if they do close the distance you still should have a slow effect on them to get a greater damage bonus.

    No Hatred Gen DH: I really like this build, and frankly it seems OP since I expect that it is pretty easy to hit 6 enemies. Like the WD I would make a few personal playstyle changes, but since the entire build revolves around Multishot and Preparation the other 4 abilities are really just flavor for whatever playstyle or niche you are trying to fit in.

    I have another interesting DH build for you: Discipline DH http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#YSUjTk!UXg!caZZYY

    Apparently there is no cap on Sentries, with this build I would be laying down a bunch of turrets with chains and as enemies get close to me I backflip and they stay on the Chain of Torment. I would be laying down 3-8 turrets at the beginning of each fight that would last for 40 seconds. Holy crap that is so much damage, and I should be generating a good amount of Discipline from Multishot to lay down 1 more every 5 secs. So after 30 seconds I could have as many as 14 Sentries, all tethered to me. Just think about that awesomeness.
  • #8
    I really love your builds, especially the DH hatred generating one, if it works this just proved that you have almost unlimited viable builds.

    I was wondering if it would be ok if I borrowed your DH build as an example of a unique build in a post I am writing on the battle.net forum about how the new skill system allows way more customization than the d2 version?

    p. s. thanks for the cookie.
  • #9
    Very interesting builds.

    I also have a unique DH build, which is basically a trapper/immobilize/stun PvP build that I made. I hope it works out though, I'll just have to wait for the game cuz I just can't tell.

    http://us.battle.net...djXk!cgU!YcaZab


    What's the most important thing a DH needs other than resource management? Range from enemies - this build stuns/immobilizes/slows enemies to such a high extent while doing damage through a mass ammount of traps and Rapid Fire (Main ranged attack).

    If this build should work it would cause such high ammounts of CC in PvP the DH could effectively keep all enemies at range while dealing plenty of damage.

    Here goes:


    Active Skills:
    • Spike trap - (hatred generator) 100% weapon damage + Indigo rune, increasing traps to 7 (up from 3) - generates 5 hatred, use this when out of hatred or when traps are set and in place to allow discipline to recharge, must keep these up at all times, spamming these generates hated. - could be swapped out for a different generator if needed.
    • Caltrops - Obsidian rune, slowing enemy movement 65% for 6secs w/in 12 yards + initially immobilizing enemies for 3.5secs - (main trap immobilizer) massive stun on enemies in 12 yards, kite target overtop of this.
    • Vault - (mobility) + Alabaster rune which stuns all enemies within 8 yards for 3 secs, when traps expire and enemy gets close vault through them to stun them, begin laying traps again - rekite enemy through to immobilize.
    • Sentry - Turret fires at enemies for 40% wep damage for 20secs + Crimson rune which does 85% weapon damage per sec to every enemy it touches/tethered to. - Main trap damage, constant tether insures enemies will take damage per sec (Dot - damage over time, constantly)
    • Rapid Fire - main attack (when not laying traps and discipline is recharging) 228% weapon damage + Alabaster rune which slows enemies by 62% for 2 secsonds - while at max range and ememies are stunned you will use this as your main attack which still slows enemies! If further immobilizing not required swap for +dmg rune.
    • Preparation - Instantly restores all discipline (when more traps are needed) + Golden Rune which instantly grants you 70% of your life when used! - excellent for when health gets low towards the end of a battle, this could turn the tide of battle back to your favor, you could start throwing out more traps to start immobilzing enemies and you gain most all of your life back when enemy believes you're defeated.
    Passives:
    • Cull the Weak - damage against slowed enemies increased 20% (Extra dmg if enough stuns)
    or

    Thrill of the Hunt - every 10 seconds your bow attack will immobilize your target for 3 seconds, if enemy breaks from CC - your high fire rate from rapid fire will immobilize your target allowing you to get more range or toss some traps down. (If immobilzation not needed it can be swapped out for another passive of your liking)
    • Custom Engineering - Duration of Caltrops, Spike Trap, and Sentry are increased by 100%. This allows you to manage your Discipline better, you'll spam less traps because they last longer.
    • Perfectionist - Reduces All costs of discipline skills by 20%. Further allows you to manage disipline better.
    The passives on this build allow for extreme resource management of your traps.

    However this build is just theorycrafting - may need revised if there is too much discipline management, may have to swap out for different hatred spender/generators.

    More hatred generators may be needed to keep rapid fire uptime, but however, rapid fire isn't the main attack/purpose of this build - The Traps are.


    But the idea is for the DH to be a trapper (like D2 Assassin), but utilizes a bow when enemies are stunned at max range.

    Build isn't perfect yet but, what do you guys think?
  • #10
    Quote from Alowan

    I really love your builds, especially the DH hatred generating one, if it works this just proved that you have almost unlimited viable builds.

    I was wondering if it would be ok if I borrowed your DH build as an example of a unique build in a post I am writing on the battle.net forum about how the new skill system allows way more customization than the d2 version?

    p. s. thanks for the cookie.


    Ill send you a pm about this.

    Sorry for not posting here much. I have spent most of my time in the DH and monk sub forums beating these builds to death since I tend to get better responses there about them. I am not trying to ignore anyone and I greatly like to have feedback but my attention has shifted greatly in that direction.
    (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
    h-o-p-e-s.net
    ┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
    Sorry had to fix that table.
  • To post a comment, please or register a new account.
Posts Quoted:
Reply
Clear All Quotes