Let me know what you think about this simple idea to improve the magic find system.

  • #21
    I think we could discuss the psychological merits of a 100% chance to "win" with a drop rate of 1 item per hour versus a 1% chance to "win" with a drop rate of 100 items per hour...

    I'm sure there would be some interesting theories so to which is rewarding. But I can say that when I play PoE and I kill a blue/yellow and it drops NO loot it really does make me want to log out on the spot. For me (me, maybe others) it's atrocious and frustrating well beyond the frustration I have with IDing 1000 crappy items before I get a good one.
    p427 :: 89.1k EK :: 2.47m TK
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #22
    Well, I'd rather choose something in the middle. Like I've said, the current situation is depressing... there is no excitement anymore when a rare drops in the floor, it is exactly the opposite. I'd like to see a rare and say: "nice!, a rare!, it could be an upgrade!", instead of not being sure if moving the mouse to that spot on the screen is worth it.
  • #23
    Quote from Indimix

    Well, I'd rather choose something in the middle. Like I've said, the current situation is depressing... there is no excitement anymore when a rare drops in the floor, it is exactly the opposite. I'd like to see a rare and say: "nice!, a rare!, it could be an upgrade!", instead of not being sure if moving the mouse to that spot on the screen is worth it.


    For me it's always been, "A ring! 100M here I come! Oh, man, that pair of Archon Gauntlets are going to roll 9/50/10 trifecta, I know it. Yes! Rune Sword, let's go 1300DPS200int11ias100critsocketlifesteal5000000BILLIONgold!"

    The results almost never turn out to be true—especially in the last case—but it doesn't stop me from believing!
    Blizzard Entertainment - Diablo III Community MVP
  • #24
    What if I told you, that you could invest MPo™ and make it so every time an Archon Gauntlet drops on the floor it has a fixed affix, wouldn't be great?...
  • #25
    Quote from Indimix

    Yeah, the thing is, this need of having the required affixes when you ID an item, is because... if not, the item is useless.

    For example:

    - boots without MS? -> trash
    - helm, weapon, chest, legs without sockets? -> trash
    - amulets that are not at least trifecta? -> trash
    and the list goes on...

    In the current system, a way to sort of fix at least one affix would improve the fun when you ID any item.

    Just to give an example why some things in Diablo 2 were better designed, the armor chest Enigma, it didn't have the best stats, however you could blink.


    The item is useless because you're at the point where only an ammy with a trifecta is useful. As an example, I would love a good weapon w/o a socket for my WD. Why? because he's only lvl 60, and only at the beginning of Inferno (or maybe act 2, I forget if I beat Act 1 with my Monk or my WD). You're just confusing the matter by combining two things you dislike and implying they are linked (the time to ID and the fact that you have such high gear that you need near perfect to improve).

    Quote from Jaetch

    Well... it is a kind of solution, but I'm not sure if it's absolutely necessary.

    Sure, I get a little upset when I find a 1100 DPS sword with 300 dexterity but... bonus Magic Missile damage. Or a Mara's Kaleidoscope with 200 intelligence and... bonus Frenzy damage.

    I'd like those types of combinations to never meet (as in if the game sees the Mara's roll a barb bonus affix, it automatically rejects dexterity and intelligence and lets the Mara's roll strength), but I don't really support "rigging" affixes for drops you get in-game from killing monsters and opening treasure chests. I like the mystery. Rigging crafting recipes are enough, in my opinion.


    I agree, it would be nice if they limited certain combination, aka when they have items/affixes that are intended for a set type of character, than the main affixes should be useful for that goal (so, it's not that a sword with +magix missile can't have Dex, it's just that it should have MORE int). I guess they decided that random should mean 100% random.

    Quote from Indimix

    JKlimek, you are missing the point here.


    So I guess I'm missing the point too, cause I agree with him. Unless you meant the Enigma thing.

    Quote from Indimix

    What if I told you, that you could invest MPo™ and make it so every time an Archon Gauntlet drops on the floor it has a fixed affix, wouldn't be great?...


    Here's my point. It would be nice the first time. And probably the second and third. BUT pretty soon I wouldn't just need an Archon Gauntlet with one fixed affix, I'd need it with 3, 4, or 5. Why? Well, lets say I decided the #1 would be +int. I roll one with good int, +damage, and +chc. Now, if I want a better one, I need great rolls. Then perfect. Then I have no more reason to look for items cause I can't improve at all. So, the first time you found one, yay! upgrade. But, pretty quickly, even find an Archon Gauntlet has a tiny chance to be good, and you're back where you started. See my point? Doing this would not alleviate the issue of taking time to ID an item that has little to no chance of being good, it would just push it a few (or a few hundred) hours out.
  • #26
    The end result of how it works right now the "item end-game" of Diablo 3 and my idea of an improved and customized MF would be the same in terms of time to get your perfect gear. The only difference is, that the process of getting your gear would be enjoyable.

    That's what I've said that JKlimek was missing the point.

    Basically, what my idea does, is to change the AH for a mechanism which behaves similarly, but it makes you work for it. The result is (or I think it would be) farming for gear, specific gear, instead of buying it from the AH like 90+% of players do.

    Just as an example, when I've heard about the zero CD dog sacrifice WD build I thought: "nice!, I'll give it a try!". Turns out, that you need like 3 different legendaries with the proper affixes plus some other quite expensive pieces of gear to achieve that. As a no AH user, that is impossible to get, because, you cant farm for something specific, because the MF works in a incompatible way.

    Of course this problem only happen when you have a poor itemization in conjunction with not too many choices of viable skills combinations.
  • #27
    Quote from Indimix

    The end result of how it works right now the "item end-game" of Diablo 3 and my idea of an improved and customized MF would be the same in terms of time to get your perfect gear. The only difference is, that the process of getting your gear would be enjoyable.

    That's what I've said that JKlimek was missing the point.

    Basically, what my idea does, is to change the AH for a mechanism which behaves similarly, but it makes you work for it. The result is (or I think it would be) farming for gear, specific gear, instead of buying it from the AH like 90+% of players do.


    No, it would make it FASTER. If that's what you want, to get to the last items as fast as you can, then I guess you're right, doing so would make that more "enjoyable." Personally, I enjoy the hunt more than having the end items.

    As far as I can tell, you're saying the problem is you never find good items, and the only way to fix this would be to make the better items more common (by, in your case, by fixing your most important affix). Doing this WOULD increase the chances you'd find something you need, but like I have said before, eventually you will then just get to the point where it takes forever to find an improvement, even with a fixed affix, because everything basically needs a perfect roll, and you'll either be bored by then, or be back here complaining about the other, unrelated, issues.

    Quote from Indimix

    Just as an example, when I've heard about the zero CD dog sacrifice WD build I thought: "nice!, I'll give it a try!". Turns out, that you need like 3 different legendaries with the proper affixes plus some other quite expensive pieces of gear to achieve that. As a no AH user, that is impossible to get, because, you cant farm for something specific, because the MF works in a incompatible way.

    Of course this problem only happen when you have a poor itemization in conjunction with not too many choices of viable skills combinations.


    Just to say, this happened in Diablo 2 as well (I believe Hammerdins were very gear heavy, I never had enough gear to make it work, so I never ran one and am unsure). The only ways around this particular issue (that I can think of) is either make it so easy that medicore gear can run almost any build, make items and builds independent, or just make the best gear really common. You're idea goes the "make the best gear common" route. Which causes the game to become easier.
  • #28
    Quote from TheDFO

    Quote from Indimix

    The end result of how it works right now the "item end-game" of Diablo 3 and my idea of an improved and customized MF would be the same in terms of time to get your perfect gear. The only difference is, that the process of getting your gear would be enjoyable.

    That's what I've said that JKlimek was missing the point.

    Basically, what my idea does, is to change the AH for a mechanism which behaves similarly, but it makes you work for it. The result is (or I think it would be) farming for gear, specific gear, instead of buying it from the AH like 90+% of players do.


    No, it would make it FASTER. If that's what you want, to get to the last items as fast as you can, then I guess you're right, doing so would make that more "enjoyable." Personally, I enjoy the hunt more than having the end items.

    As far as I can tell, you're saying the problem is you never find good items, and the only way to fix this would be to make the better items more common (by, in your case, by fixing your most important affix). Doing this WOULD increase the chances you'd find something you need, but like I have said before, eventually you will then just get to the point where it takes forever to find an improvement, even with a fixed affix, because everything basically needs a perfect roll, and you'll either be bored by then, or be back here complaining about the other, unrelated, issues.

    Quote from Indimix

    Just as an example, when I've heard about the zero CD dog sacrifice WD build I thought: "nice!, I'll give it a try!". Turns out, that you need like 3 different legendaries with the proper affixes plus some other quite expensive pieces of gear to achieve that. As a no AH user, that is impossible to get, because, you cant farm for something specific, because the MF works in a incompatible way.

    Of course this problem only happen when you have a poor itemization in conjunction with not too many choices of viable skills combinations.


    Just to say, this happened in Diablo 2 as well (I believe Hammerdins were very gear heavy, I never had enough gear to make it work, so I never ran one and am unsure). The only ways around this particular issue (that I can think of) is either make it so easy that medicore gear can run almost any build, make items and builds independent, or just make the best gear really common. You're idea goes the "make the best gear common" route. Which causes the game to become easier.


    First, you don't know if the hypothetical new system would be faster or not, it all depends on how balanced it would be. So, stating as a fact that it's faster, is a wrong assumption.

    Secondly, if it happened or not in another game, it's not related to this game, and to this idea. Please, not only you, but other users here, stop saying: "but, it was the same in X game".. who cares. We are talking about this game, Diablo 3.

    My idea doesn't make the game easier, but finding the gear more enjoyable, because you can actually farm for something in particular. I'd rather choose my idea even if it takes me twice the time to find what I'm looking for, because I know that the items that drop now have a solid chance of being decent, maybe not upgrades, but not trash either.
  • #29
    Quote from Indimix

    My idea doesn't make the game easier, but finding the gear more enjoyable, because you can actually farm for something in particular.


    The 1.0.7 patterns already accomplish what you are suggesting without the undertaking involved in developing a whole new system that basically does the same thing. Given that you've rallied against Blizzard for being "too slow" with changes it seems mildly hypocritical that you'd suggest they develop a whole new system instead of just expanding on an already-existing system that has a very similar purpose.

    There's simply no need to reinvent the wheel.
    p427 :: 89.1k EK :: 2.47m TK
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #30
    Quote from Indimix

    First, you don't know if the hypothetical new system would be faster or not, it all depends on how balanced it would be. So, stating as a fact that it's faster, is a wrong assumption.

    Okay, walk me through logic and point out the flaw in how this can be built to be worthwhile, and not speed up the process of getting better gear.

    Okay, you pick an affix that the item needs, as in, you ignore it otherwise. Right now, every item that drops, the internal screening goes - correct item type? Yes. Correct base stat (damage/armor)? Yes. Correct 1st Affix? Yes. Correct Amount? Yes. Correct Second affix? Yes. And on and on. Oh sure, somtimes you'll take a reduction in one of those if it gives you a good enough upgrade in another, but that is the general thinking, right?

    You're Suggestion goes like this: Correct Affix? correct item type? Yes. Correct base stat (damage/armor)? Yes.Correct Amount of first affix? Yes. Correct Second affix? Yes. And on and on. I'll point out the difference - You're not screening for the presence of the correct affix. You know it's there. That increases the chances you get what you want considerably. If that affix you fixed is +int, then right now it's a small chance that it's even present. Let's say there are only 16 possible affixes (low, but we'll go with it), and lets say you ONLY find 8 affix items. As it is now, you have a 50% chance of getting the correct item with the correct affix. Guaranteeing that affix happens is doubling your feasible items, right off the bat.

    A direct ancedote, I just crafted 15 shoulders for my low level Wiz (he's low enough to not get shoulder drops, but high enough to craft them, plus I have plenty of mats). The most important affix there is clearly +int given he's only lvl 13. I got THREE of those with +int. Yeah, that doesn't prove any percentage, and I could have just been incredibly unlucky, but you're idea would have given me a MUCH better selection. So, unless they balance this out so as it's all but worthless (incredibly gimping your kill rate, which gimps your drop rate, or gimping your MF, which gimps your drop rate), then this idea will speed up the item find.

    Quote from Indimix

    Secondly, if it happened or not in another game, it's not related to this game, and to this idea. Please, not only you, but other users here, stop saying: "but, it was the same in X game".. who cares. We are talking about this game, Diablo 3.

    My idea doesn't make the game easier, but finding the gear more enjoyable, because you can actually farm for something in particular. I'd rather choose my idea even if it takes me twice the time to find what I'm looking for, because I know that the items that drop now have a solid chance of being decent, maybe not upgrades, but not trash either.


    Okay, maybe it's not related. My point was A) many people here who serially complain about D3 seem to have the attitude "it just should have been D2 in HD). I guess you weren't one of them, B) Because this happens in most other games, you're point the lack of itemization was damaging the build viability was not a result of your complaints, but more of an issue with ARPGs (or at least one heavily gear based) in general. Which would mean your solution shouldn't have anything to do with ID time, item drops, or changing what affixes you get, but should have something to do with the fact that all skills are directly depedent on items, and C) never saw anyone complain about it before, so what gives?
  • #31
    @shaggy I've never even thought for a second that Blizzard could/should implement this idea, I know how they do things by now. And, they did implement something similar to what I'm saying, however the problem still remains, the quality of rares that drop, all the time.

    @TheDFO not sure how to answer you honestly.
  • #32
    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from maka




    Maka, where the fuck did you buy your keyboard?!


    :facepalmsmile:

    Oh god, this made me laugh. Cheers.
  • #33
    There are a number of ideas for how to address this long term that don't include removing the auction house outright, and most of the ideas are centered around giving players more ways to find items they are excited about:
    • One idea that we have discussed is “targeted Legendaries,” where named NPCs have an increased chance of dropping specific legendary items. For example, The Butcher could have an increased chance of dropping The Butcher's Cleaver.
    • Another idea is that we introduce a system that will help alleviate some of the bad randomness players encounter by ensuring that at least some of the Rare and Legendary items you find will be something good for your class.
    • We've also discussed allowing bosses the first time you kill them in each difficulty to have a guaranteed chance to drop a Legendary.
    Just saying...
  • #34
    Quote from Indimix

    Some minutes ago, I was thinking, why is it that the worst part of the game is when you have to id all of those rares knowing that almost every single one is trash, I don't mean bad items, but trash, like class specific items rolling non-class specific main stats, and things like that.

    So I was thinking, that maybe the whole MF system is flawed, even if it works the same in D2 and other games, why not change it into something users can find joy?.

    So I came up with this idea:

    - For the sake of the new magic find, lets call them magic points, from now on: MPo.

    - You gain MPo the same way you currently gain MF, through items, paragon level, NV, etc.
    - Every point you win, you decide how the item that drops will be, this is easier to show with an example:

    you have 100 MPo. Then what you do, is to allocate these points in a way that you customize the quality, quantity and most important, what affix a specific kind of item should roll.

    Let say you are looking for a helm with a socket. Then what you do, is that you use some of your MPo to give a higher chance that all of the helms that drop from now on, will roll a socket. The chance could be 100% if you invest the enough MPo.

    The same concept would apply to all of the affixes in the game, discriminated by class of weapon, and of course the affixes available to those classes.

    I think this could be a good idea to stop the "sigh... now I have to id all those rares... yay", into a better experience, and at the same time, make the MF more fun to have and play with, and not just a dull number.

    Let me know what you think about this.

    Thanks.


    I like your idea because it allows more customisation !

    I proposed something similar (but easier to implement I think) in an old post (http://www.diablofan...on-loot-skills/) with additional passive skills dedicated to magic find customisation, but my method doesn't change the number of rares we get.
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