State of Diablo 3 - Discussion format

  • #81
    I think it's safe to say that a primary stat would also be on the list of enchants, but she could have added special affix's instead of those 4. chance on hit to cast poison nova, chance on hit to summon a guardian, those types of enchants would be great along with the optional crit, crit damage, ias, socket and primary stat.

    I don't think she got useless, I think she is going to be a feature for the xpack when they bring in charms and jewels, i just wish they add sapphires, diamonds and skulls and make them useful because the current gems suck dick. I'm a barbarian derp I use str gems in my gear and a crit damage gem in my weapon. With the paragon leveling system (band aid system) its pointless to use an amethyst gem in you're helm unless you're level 100, the emerald in the helm is pointless because of the gold find cap, the topaz in the helm is pointless because of the magic find cap and not to mention pointless to use in weapons, the ruby is pointless to use in the weapon also. Did I miss any?
  • #82
    Quote from DerpySkulls

    I think it's safe to say that a primary stat would also be on the list of enchants, but she could have added special affix's instead of those 4. chance on hit to cast poison nova, chance on hit to summon a guardian, those types of enchants would be great along with the optional crit, crit damage, ias, socket and primary stat.

    I don't think she got useless, I think she is going to be a feature for the xpack when they bring in charms and jewels, i just wish they add sapphires, diamonds and skulls and make them useful because the current gems suck dick. I'm a barbarian derp I use str gems in my gear and a crit damage gem in my weapon. With the paragon leveling system (band aid system) its pointless to use an amethyst gem in you're helm unless you're level 100, the emerald in the helm is pointless because of the gold find cap, the topaz in the helm is pointless because of the magic find cap and not to mention pointless to use in weapons, the ruby is pointless to use in the weapon also. Did I miss any?


    On your first point - it's not that she wouldn't have had "fun" affixes, it's that no one would sadly pick them, because of the being "efficient" philosophy that's been going on in gaming the last few years. You can't just have fun - you have to be at the top. But I do agree that some of the things might've been very fun, like the ones you mentioned. If it's any consolidation - all of the affixes she was able to enchant got thrown into the current poll of possible affixes on rares and legendaries right now (bar the unique ones for legendaries I suppose). So there weren't that many fun ones in the plans to begin with. Hopefully that changes in time.

    Me - I'd sure like to see "Cannot be frozen", but then the Frozen affix would be a waste on Elite mobs.

    And on your second point - of course. I'm sure the vast, vast majority of the player base would like more customization, be it cosmetic or effective. I think though, that we'd first need a bigger variety of important affixes added in that would be used as such on gems.

    If you read the first few lines at the beginning of this post you'll hopefully see, the way I do, that "efficiency" is just getting in the way of fun. And that's in almost any game. Currently we have CC, CH, IAS, AR and sockets as "mandatory" affixes. That's not bad design (imo), but it's super hard to balance. Adding more good affixes would really destroy the somewhat good balance we have right now when you include them to the aforementioned ones and the scales would need to be re-balanced again. I'm sure we'll see some good ones being added in the future but before that ideas need to be thrown around between designers and then testing needs to commence on them. Otherwise people would then just say "Damn it, now I have to look for a weapon that has ALL of these - CH, IAS, Socket and the new X, Y and Z affixes." All in the name of efficiency.

    But then with efficiency come bigger drop rates because of faster farming... and it's just a long, long topic. So I'll leave it here for now and see what other people pick off my post. :)
  • #83
    http://imageshack.us...fographic.jpg#1

    With regards to this image the problems are not simply itemization. its more to do with the way itemization interacts with, skills and attributes. So just working on items (more different affixes) will not be sufficient, the weapon dps dependence and primary stat dependence are what causes many of the issues with itemization. So realistically for the problems with items to be solved it would require an admission from the design team that some of the key decisions they have made are flawed that being the complete gear and weapon dps dependence.

    Second, the problem with efficiency currently is that it is one dimensional. The only way to make a class more efficient is to increase its dps and damage output over time which centralises and thus hinders build diversity.

    Efficiency is one dimensional because the only problem which players have to solve is how to minimise run time with as much dps as possible. for example as i stated earlier there is no damage type problem to be solved, the kind of damage you are dealing makes no difference. thus rather than having people who specialise in dealing fire damage and ice damage or physical damage or a combination thereof. players simply seek to maximise damage in general.

    When there is a damage type problem to be solved(as there was in D2 because of immunities) people specialise in one type of damage or another and gain a certain kind of efficiency or proficiency and then are rewarded by being more or less successful depending on what kind of monster they are fighting. In D3 the kind of specialisation is identical no matter what class you are playing everyone specialises towards maximising damage output. This is a strong reason for the lack of build diversity.

    what i want to know is: WHAT THE HELL IS THE POINT OF HAVING WEAPONS AND SKILLS THAT DO DIFFERENT KINDS OF DAMAGE WHEN IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO THE GAME-PLAY!!??

    seriously i dont get it, maybe it made the game easier to tune, but so far as i am concerned the decision sucks, and its has not helped make the game more fun in any clear way.
  • #84
    I think the above post highlights that some and maybe even allot of the problems with itemization are the result of systematic changes which have been made between D2 and D3. Thus allot of the dissatisfaction with items can be attributed to those changes and not items specifically.

    Thus the three most fundamental changes i would like to see from D3

    1.Make damage type have efficacy.(this esp)

    2. diversify drop rates and types across areas. (eg. make so certain items only drop in certain acts/certain monsters)

    3. Reduce the the dependence on gear, primary stat, and weapon dps.
  • #85
    Quote from overneathe

    Quote from maka

    Quote from Bagstone
    they're just making sure that whatever gets released is both finished and balanced, and not in beta status


    Wow...seriously?
    Were you awake/alive/conscious when D3 was launched?


    They didn't realize 10 million people would buy their game. Who would've? Most people said it'll sell like 2mil. I guess Blizz predicted 5 at most.


    That's a cop out, and you know it. Even IF we discount the server debacle at launch, the very state of the game wouldn't qualify as 'finished'. I think the number of patches it's received in such a relatively short time is testament to that.


    Quote from Bagstone

    Actually... I wasn't around when D3 launched, no. Started months later. BUT I'm fully aware of what happened and how bad the launch was and all these things. What I meant is... "they're just making sure that whatever gets released is both finished and balanced, and not in beta status LIKE THE D3 LAUNCH." See? ;-)


    Yeah, I see. It's just kinda hard to trust repeat offenders.



    Quote from overneathe
    For example, a few months ago I'm pretty sure it was Rob, gave an interview saying he's not 100% satisfied with how the RMAH turned out and the team's job is now to make it as refined as possible, as there is absolutely no chance to remove the feature at this point.


    This is exactly why the RMAH shouldn't have been included at launch. It's a bell you can't un-ring.


    Quote from overneathe
    Otherwise people would then just say "Damn it, now I have to look for a weapon that has ALL of these - CH, IAS, Socket and the new X, Y and Z affixes." All in the name of efficiency.


    Ah, but, you see, what you fail to mention (or understand) is that, with limited number of affixes on gear, if you have more useful affixes that those that can appear on gear, you can't get ALL the good ones in one item, so you'll have to make choices.

    Quote from Sagathiest

    http://imageshack.us...fographic.jpg#1

    With regards to this image the problems are not simply itemization. its more to do with the way itemization interacts with, skills and attributes. So just working on items (more different affixes) will not be sufficient, the weapon dps dependence and primary stat dependence are what causes many of the issues with itemization. So realistically for the problems with items to be solved it would require an admission from the design team that some of the key decisions they have made are flawed that being the complete gear and weapon dps dependence.


    Spot on.
  • #86
    Quote from maka

    Ah, but, you see, what you fail to mention (or understand) is that, with limited number of affixes on gear, if you have more useful affixes that those that can appear on gear, you can't get ALL the good ones in one item, so you'll have to make choices.


    No, what my thought process was that +1X might still have slightly higher value than +1Y, so CH for example might always be the SLIGHTLY better stat for classes, but everyone would just say "just go with CH, it has the best value". That's what's difficult to balance. The other choice would've been to have all mentioned stats on items, which of course would be ridiculous.

    And on the launch part, it wasn't a cop out. An ARPG is not the most popular genre of games, even if it's Diablo. Not to mention it's single platform. Did I like the problems at launch? Of course not. Could they have been foreseen and fixed beforehand? Of course. Did Blizzard want to insure themselves by overstocking hardware? I guess not. It wasn't fun for anyone, player and developer alike.

    Beyond that, about the "quality of the finished product". Beta was super small and like everyone I think this was a big mistake. The end result was many bugs that couldn't have been foreseen or have been, but without a proper time window to be fixed. Enter iterative development.

    Or do you mean it feature wise? I don't have a particular comment for that. I played all classes to 60, geared up 2 of them, finished Inferno on one, and the first few patches started at about that point. For some players this could've been too much time. Me personally - I was fine.

    Oh and the RMAH part? I honestly can't say I care. People that use it mostly like it. The people that don't mostly hate it. Was the game going to be better without it? Would 3rd party trading be super relevant? I dunno.
  • #87
    Quote from Bagstone

    1. Jay Wilson decided "okay, let's announce that there will be a PvP blog post soon". What does that mean? Firstly, he seems to be interested in PvP as well, otherwise he wouldn't tweet about it. Secondly, he decides to throw pieces of information out there; like "hey, we're still alive". Anyone ever played an EA game? It feels like they don't exist. They're some monkeys in a submerged submarine, randomly putting in some lines of code, and once a year they surface to release another crappy game. Information? Patches? Upgrades? Nice games with improvements? They never heard of that. Thirdly, have you ever thought that Jay Wilson put this tweet out to create some pressure on the PvP development and design team? He announced an update, and a week later had to say it got postponed because it's not done yet. He didn't say "hey, I'll implement PvP tomorrow" followed by "damn, I didn't get it done because I was lazy" - the TEAM told him to tweet that it got postponed. Don't bitch about Jay Wison - bitch about the team which is slacking off! Besides, I don't think they're lazy at all, they're just making sure that whatever gets released is both finished and balanced, and not in beta status.


    Hey bro I know about everything you're talking about, but ignorance/lazy think of people (including my trolling on Jay's resign - that some people didn't understand that was a troll comment) is to point fingers to who's on focus (Jay), it's not something that only happens with D3, every place is like that. Look at WOW, everyone says pvp sucks etc, and blames Greg Street, but guess who is in charge of pvp team? Tom Chilton.
    Example: If your football team sucks, you're gonna blame the coach right? No one cares why your team is losing but why they aren't winning. But hey, the administrators of your team is not paying the football players, and the coach is always on focus giving press conference to it's fans, so you blame it.
    What I'm trying to say is, people blame who is in focus, incorrectly, I can see that, but that how things works, and I'm going to say this again: I appreciate overneathe info about who is in charge of in diablo 3 development to try to mitigate this type of situation.

    Quote from Bagstone

    2. This must be a joke. In D2 everyone was like "uniques are useless, you can do funny stuff with them, but in the end a nice rare is always better". Then they buffed uniques and in particular created some awesome runewords, and everyone goes "rares are useless, everyone just wants Enigma, Hoto, ...". D3 gets released, rares are superb, legendaries and sets kinda useless... everyone complains again. Legendaries and sets gets buffed, everyone runs around in brown and green items (except for some slots like gloves but people don't seem to stick to the truth when complaining) and now everyone's complaining that rares are useless.


    About aspect of the drop, everything falls on the shoulder of itemization, everything is so undimensional and tied to the primary stats that makes 1 affix to make a rare thrash. I don't want easy farm, I want a piece of gear make me think if it's worth change my build instead of just min max my stats (the case of D3). Just see the image, it's not that difficult to understand.
    Now everyone prays for a legendary to drop because it have 50% or more of it's affixes acurrate and less chance to be garbage, Sagathiest explains this well. Also point a fact in other to solve it is not complain.

    Quote from Bagstone

    What's next? Let me guess. Actually, you could bet a fortune on what's happening next: Blizzard revives crafting by introducing level 63 rares for crafting and maybe even buffs some of the stats. Market gets flooded with rares. Everyone complains again about BiS legendaries being useless.


    First: Blizzard said that crafting is supposed to help people to get that piece of gear that you don't have and help progression through acts and levels (nightmare/hell/inferno). Thing is, we have GAH an RMAH that sells pretty decent items with pathetic gold cost for that purpose (progression through acts and levels), so it's a fail design and EVERYONE knows that. Do you think nothing have to be done? it's ok to just leave this way? it's an issue and this Topic is about discussion about the format of the game, if you just put random thoughts of "people complain again" does not help.

    Quote from Bagstone

    And about the low droprate. Some of you played 1000+ hours. Anyone ever played Torchlight? If you play Torchlight for that much time, you have seen every single f***ing BiS item a 100 times. The amount of good drops is so overwhelming that it's just boring. When a 62 mace drops, I bet that everyone, including a p100 1000h+ player, gets at least a bit excited. This feeling is something that you cannot possibly get after playing Torchlight (or in fact, many other games) for that long.

    Damnit... 1000 hours of fun and people still complain, I don't get it. Seriously.


    It doesn't matter how many hours we spent on the game. Aren't this a "diablofans" forum? We want to HELP this game to get better and better, some just like to troll everytime and says everything sucks.

    Quote from overneathe

    She was mainly an enchanter and let's face it. Everyone would always and only enchant CC, CH, IAS and sockets. It's just a gold sink that adds no metagame.


    Is that what you really think? what about jewelcraft? EVERYONE just socket your primary stats or vit if you wish more hp. it's a gold sink that adds no metagame too. See the flaw? why itemization is bad? at least an enchanter would add a flavor to that rare you droped that the only thing that missed on it was a IAS, and you could make it "perfect".

    Quote from overneathe

    And the Jewelcrafter does his job flawlessly - he creates gems. Currently they're pretty stable.


    explained above what stable is.

    Quote from overneathe

    She did originally also made scrolls, which got removed. She added charms, which sadly also got removed (here's hoping for the expansion). And finally she made potions (meh?) and "spell runes", which got scraped and reworked into skill runes.

    So she just kinda got useless really. Hopefully they invent something more interesting for her later on in the game's life. She already has spots for her in the different cities.


    At least, overneathe, is something that you wish to farm, even if it was potion that increases MF/GF, etc, is an incentive to farm faster, more efficient, I don't know.
  • #88
    Understand all what you said and agree to most things, just one clarification:

    Quote from eldimmy

    First: Blizzard said that crafting is supposed to help people to get that piece of gear that you don't have and help progression through acts and levels (nightmare/hell/inferno). Thing is, we have GAH an RMAH that sells pretty decent items with pathetic gold cost for that purpose (progression through acts and levels), so it's a fail design and EVERYONE knows that. Do you think nothing have to be done? it's ok to just leave this way? it's an issue and this Topic is about discussion about the format of the game, if you just put random thoughts of "people complain again" does not help.


    I want things to change. Things shouldn't be left the way they are. No question about it :-)

    Quote from eldimmy

    It doesn't matter how many hours we spent on the game. Aren't this a "diablofans" forum? We want to HELP this game to get better and better, some just like to troll everytime and says everything sucks.


    Couldn't agree more. However, this is a fan forum, not the official forums. Devs don't read here. And bitching about some people, creating conspiracy theories (other thread), and complaining about the way things are right now, especially without saying what could be changed to make things better, are not helping anyone. This is what I'm annoyed with. If people need stress relief, go kill some monsters ;-)

    Otherwise, I'm in total agreement to most of your statements.
  • #89
    Quote from overneathe

    No, what my thought process was that +1X might still have slightly higher value than +1Y, so CH for example might always be the SLIGHTLY better stat for classes, but everyone would just say "just go with CH, it has the best value". That's what's difficult to balance. The other choice would've been to have all mentioned stats on items, which of course would be ridiculous.


    You are somewhat correct, but having some stats only being SLIGHTLY superior to others would still be an improvement over what we have now, where, for example, a weapon with no socket or no intrinsic crit damage is pretty much useless (except for WW and Sweeping Wind builds, which are weird in how they take OH weapon into account).


    On the server issue at launch and 'finished product' topics, I was merely responding to this:

    "they're just making sure that whatever gets released is both finished and balanced, and not in beta status"

    That's why I said it's hard to trust repeat offenders ;)


    About the RMAH: I was not even taking a shot at it, but, as you said, even the developer isn't 100% happy with it. All I was saying was that it shouldn't have been included at launch, because, once it's in place, it's not something you can really mess too much with, let alone remove it outright (if you feel any of these things is needed).
  • To post a comment, please or register a new account.
Posts Quoted:
Reply
Clear All Quotes