D3 Skill Mechanics Destroy Replayability?

  • #21
    Quote from Sabvre

    Quote from Butchkun

    Do not forget that blizzard has plans to let us sell whole characters on the auction house. I believe this will be enough incentive to those who like rerolling to do so. With the items you find during the leveling + the value of the character once level 60 it should be a decent way to farm for gold.

    And as far as D2 is concerned, it usually took only a few, most of the time boring, hours of rush to get a fresh 80 character to try a new build on. Not to mention that at some point it took 10 minutes to get a GRush and then an hour of uber tristram to get to 90. Most of the time it took to try something else came from getting the right gear, and this will still be the case with Diablo 3.

    As for me, I believe most of the replayability will come from hardcore. I'm not really a fan of hardcore mode but I know I'll enjoy trying to get a char as far as I can once in a while ;)

    I don't think they will do this in the end... If they do... i just simply don't think it will be worth it. I have a feeling with help you should be able to max a character in at most 50 hours.

    Well seeing how 90% of the player base should not be old Diablo 2 players, and mostly people that will only play once in a while, I think this option will be very interesting to them, which also makes it interesting to us who want to play through the game many times to make some extra profit :)I do agree however this probably won't be the most efficient way to make gold, but then again it's just a little more incentive to make us reroll if we want to.
  • #22
    My assumption is the 10 character slots that will be available are so you can have 1 of each class on softcore and hardcore modes, so yes, you are right that replayability (at least in the sense of starting a new alt character of a class you already have) is probably pretty much non-existent.

    However, I'm not entirely sad that that is gone, given the enhanced replayability that I think we will have in the "endgame" of inferno farming not being limited to just boss runs with the better loot distribution meaning we will probably play through whole acts at a time. I think this will give the game alot more variety (here's hoping the random layout of the dungeons will be at least as good as it was in D2!)
  • #23
    In my opinion, the stat system had very little to do with the replay value of D2. Why? Imagine this:

    Player A: "Shoot, can't wear that new awesome piece of gear I just found, don't have the stats for it."
    Player B: "Don't worry, make a new character, I'll rush you."
    * Six hours later, Player A has a new lvl92 Hammerdin without even having to do uberleveling.

    The real replay value in D2 was this:
    1) Leveling for the sake of leveling
    2) MF to find better items
    3) PvP
    4) Socializing with other players
    5) Ladder resets
    The bottom line is that the stat/skill system didn't add anything I wanted for D2. If anything, they were the reason why people had to spend an hour or two doing something they didn't really enjoy when they rushed other players.

    Only once in the entire time I've played D2 did I want to make a new character just because of the stats themselves, and that was when I realized I cut shave another few points off strength to make a character vitality-only. Every other time I made a new character, it was because of one of the five reasons listed above or I needed a mule.
    Of all things important in Online Gaming, there is one thing no game developer can "fix" - it's community.
  • #24
    Won't an actual hard difficulty add more replayability (Or possibly just add time to the first time through the game) than anything else anyways? If it's actually that hard, it could take hours to clear a single map.

    With boss runs being less rewarding, just repeating the whole game on inferno repeatedly is what most people will be doing.
  • #25
    On one hand, you can't get boosted, inferno, hell and even nightmare suggest to be a challenge, unlike in d2. The overall problem with skills in d2 was the immune to X system that crippled alot of speccs, and some (hammer) rose to the top, and stayed there. I would argue the fact that farming gear in inferno is going to be intense aswell, so you'll spend more time doing so, but yeah. After the implemention of the den of evil respecc, and the tokens. You didn't have to scrap a char in d2 anymore, so the "golden age" you remember has long since been passed.

    I welcome the change, more time spent setting up skill/rune combos, getting gear.
    And if you want to play again? 5 classes to get to 60! :)
  • #26
    Quote from ubeRom
    1. So...does this new skill system, in your opinion, kill the replayability (I'm talking years worth, like we got out of Diablo 2) ? Or, am I being hypocritical of a game that I have waited a decade for? 2. Also, would you prefer the current D3 skill system setup, or a system similar to late D2 where trees had synergies, respec scrolls were available etc? Thank you for reading :P

    1. I believe that replayability is very dependent on the player him-/herself. Personally, I think its great that I don't have to get locked into "one build" for my character, simply because I don't have the amount of time to invest into the game as I did 10 years ago. If I do get nostalgic, there is nothing stopping me from rolling a new character and using a different build, and limiting myself as not being allowed to swap skills - for that old D2 feeling of playing the same game but with a new build.

    2. As we have not seen the final iteration of the skill system - but basing this on what we currently know - I think the system is a step in the right direction. D3 is after all not D2 with better graphics and so many factors have changed for what is considered a good game system over the years that it would in my mind be wrong of Blizz to cater to the "old school" population.

    I support them in their aim to make a game that works for both the casual and the hardcore gamer - because I used to be hardcore, but age and real life went on and its "forced" me to become a more casual gamer - but I still want to be able to enjoy the time I invest in the game without feeling like I'm missing out simply because I can't invest as much time as the next person.
  • #27
    Quote from Snaks42

    ohmaygawd not this thread again. Please for the love of Diablo, search the forums if you want to complain about this, there's about 4 hundred threads.

    More on topic: There's so many good arguments for the skill system in diablo 3, you just CAN'T argue against it. Your main point; Replayability. Leveling new characters because you are forced to, because you made a mistake with the broken stat allocation system and skill trees did NOT contribute to this. Look back to playing D2. You could level to 85 in no time. This was not why you kept playing. Instead it was the item hunt. If replay ability to you = forcing people to level characters, when most didn't like having to level that 3rd amazon because they screwed up, then that's fine. But don't try to force it on the rest of us.

    The fact is D3 has thousands upon thousands of more, viable, and different builds than D2 ever had. Hacking and more importantly duping will be very limited in D3, causing those super rare legendaries to actually BE super rare, thus dramatically improving the item hunt from D2. D3 will give you the ability to farm the entire game, reducing the mundane task of having someone teleport to Baal, open portal, kill and repeat.

    TLDR; Your kidding yourself if you think *having* to level characters was why D2 was fun. D2 was fun because of the chance of really cool, rare items dropping, and actually playing your character. Just because you can switch your skills doesn't mean you have instant access to every build. Every build is going to need, for the most part, different gear, different runes, different gems. It has replay ability, more so than any game I've seen.

    I think you are assuming what I believe to be fun. And no, I'm not kidding myself. I've played the game for years, I think I know what my own opinion is by now.

    Yes, Magic Find is a factor in replayability, but that is nothing close to what I am arguing. I think the old skill system is what kept people interested and trying new things. I don't like that you can simply, change your skill bar, wait a minute for the skills to become active, and you've essentially got an entirely different toon. I can try out all my builds in a week.
  • #28
    It's a good thing that, if you think the fun and replayability came from re-rolling new characters, that nobody has taken away your ability to do so.

    Edit; Relevant:

    Wow, people really don't like the OPs post. Well, if we're killing replay value by not making people have to level completely new characters just to try out a new build, we are ok with that.

    Leveling characters is cool, and some people legitimately enjoy that process (me!), and we agree it can be fun and would still like to find ways to reward people who enjoy leveling additional characters, but being required to do it just to try out some different skills is no longer acceptable to us. That's a level of masochism we just don't care to revisit. We thank the 90's for their contributions to game design, and the 'crush the player's soul' dungeon master mentality, but we're moving on. We have this crazy notion that games shouldn't punish you for trying to enjoy them.

    Fact of the matter is though that the longevity in Diablo II was not made by leveling characters. You can get a character to 80 in a matter of hours. The longevity was from experimentation, customization, and the randomized item drops needed to perfect them. And that's amazingly even considering that a huge portion of the item hunt was completely ruined due to the mass proliferation of what should be insanely rare items. Longevity in Diablo is from exploration, character customization, and more specifically, killing monsters to see what they drop - not leveling.

    You can also add to this that in Diablo III killing monsters to see what they drop will not be made lucrative by explicitly predictable means, such as boss runs. Exploring entire areas, even playing from start to finish of each act, uncovering all the nooks and crannies is intended to be the way you'll be playing Inferno. You can pretend you're leveling a new character each time, if you'd like. :)
    ~ Bashiok
  • #29
    I like the new system, its annoying being locked on 1 path which you might find out is not very productive at the end, just because you got an option to switch builds on the fly doesn't mean you have to, and when you start investing in high rank runestones that might get locked on a skill (uncertain how it works atm), it wont be productive to switch from high rank runed skills to skills without a rank or low level runes, there are quite a few factors we don't know about yet, switching to a whole new build might end up being quite expensive if you want all of them runed, so it might not be that flexible as you think.

    If they keep a system similar to the one showed last year, a runestone will be binded to the skill u put it into, and the last rank of the runes will probably not come cheap either.
  • #30
    I have a very positive outlook on the current D3 system. Most posts about this almost seem to forget that Blizzard said that they want gear to define your character more than skills. By this logic it's entirely possible that certain builds will be nearly impossible to play without the gear for it.

    Say you have a build that spends x amound of mana a second, and by default you have 10x, then you only have mana for 10 seconds. So your options are:
    - +dmg so everytime you cast a spell it hurts more so you only need 10 casts
    - mana regen so you can spam your abilities and if you go oom it would only be temporary
    - get more mana so you can spam 20 spells now but once you go oom then thats that

    That's only a spin on a build that works in 3 scenarios. Other builds might simply require a specific stat to work. So you now can't just use this set of skills and make it work because you probably don't have the gear for it.

    Then there are runes that throw another twist into things.
  • #31
    Its been talked over and over.
    Its about ppl demand. While OP says in d2 he loved build consequences, the reality is that in diablo 2 You will see loads of reset tokens in use, so we know ppl are using those to respec anyway, and it doesnt affect the replayability.
    Diablo's replayability comes with loot, trading, making new chars (not 10 versions of the same class, but diffrent classes).

    I really enjoy that this is going to be a bit diffrent with d3
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