I was wondering if there's any definitive Thorns info out there. Seems like it's piecemeal here and there, particularly with some reworks to its mechanics this patch/PTR.
I'm seeing numbers running basic 6 piece Invoker + Hack (and even without Hack) that I can't analyze because the ranges are so vast. Not sure how 100k thorns damage is hitting for over a billion, unless I'm just not looking at the damage multipliers.
Specifically, I'm wondering what it scales with. My understanding (currently) is - strength, global buffs/debuffs (DIBS, elite damage, debuffs like BotT/Zeis/passives, etc) and indirectly attack speed (faster you attack faster it goes off with Hack). That's it. Still can't figure out for sure if it scales with %physical damage or if it scales in any way with weapon damage range (it shouldn't).
from my experiences in ptr it does not scale with chc, chd, elemental damge and weapon damage at all
it does scale with strength, overall damage item bonuses (LoN, F&R), skills that increase overall damage (holy cause, akarat's champion, heavenly strength), elite dmg bonus (diamond in weapon, furnace etc) and gem multipliers (BoT, BotS, Zei)
the above things multiply the base thorns value that is affected by passives (iron maiden / tough as nails), invoker buff, heart of iron affix and obviously all thorns affix on gear
it scales indirectly with attack speed only for stacking invoker buff and proccing hack faster
what you probably experienced were high invoker stacks, they go off from attacks but also from blocks, if you're surrounded by mobs and have a high block chance the stacks easily ramp up really high, i mean i was running grifts and had hamelin as the boss and i started to steadily get him down but when he summoned his rats and they attacked me invoker stacked so high i pretty much instagibbed him
hack proc behaves exactly like life on hit, always has, it cant crit just as thorns cant crit, basicly what it does it procs thorns (the same value as if a mob hit you) on top of any attack you do, in the old days that number got also processed by proc coefficients but since the latest life on hit changes it doesnt, just procs once per attack for full value
hope this somewhat helps
Thanks, I'm curious - is block a really high priority? So much that you need to use Justice Lantern/Blood Brother for example?
Also, does Omnislash proc Hack on every enemy hit? I still prefer Belt of the Trove, but just curious.
Thanks, I'm curious - is block a really high priority? So much that you need to use Justice Lantern/Blood Brother for example?
Also, does Omnislash proc Hack on every enemy hit? I still prefer Belt of the Trove, but just curious.
I wouldnt bother with omnislash, hack proc works just like life on hit, procs ONE full value per attack, doesnt matter if its single target or aoe, its viable because it works with 2 pc invokers that does 15 yard aoe around you anytime thorns do damage, so yeah belt of the trove all the way
as for block, i wouldnt use helm of rule but justice lantern is quite good if you can fit it in your gear, blood brother might be an option but only cubed, one handers are just so much better for invoker its not even funny, 2h passive is -20% damage (thorns also) and slower invoker stacking, i think the only 2h thorn build would be akkhan with the new flail and shield set for fast horse farming, with swiftmount cubed and enough cdr for perma akarat/horse it might be viable for bounties and lower grifts
also dmg range on weapons is mostly useless in such builds, would roll it off for aspd/cdr
Right, this is my thinking too. Currently using Swiftmount with Hack cubed, but will need to cube Blood Brother I think with Hack as weapon soon. Although, I'm also considering using Pig Sticker (much higher APS and separate damage multipliers for humans/beasts).
when looking at your thorns damage, make sure to highlight it in the stat sheet. It only registers until the hundred thousands, the million digits are being cut off. when you highlight it though, the correct number appears.
I started to run an Invoker on PTR season, and asked myself the those questions. I didn't have a hack drop yet, lol, but got an ancient Furnace.
Looking into the fact that it is very dependant on high Iron Skin (300% bonus Thorns when up)/Provoke (if you use shield that gives bonus Thorns to provoked enemies) upkeep and that you get bonus Thorns from "Heart of Iron" leg affix (based on your VIT) I'm even thinking to combine the set with 2 piece Rolands and Sweep Attack (might even do with "only" 4 Invoker parts), and an Obsidian Ring of the Zodiac. I think having all the defensive stats up all the time is more bonus than the 600% Thorns with every Slash/Punish attack. Even if not, I'm theorizing here, don't shoot me).
Actually there are a lot additional items and possibilities, somebody probably will find out something better than I theorize here.
BTW, with a non gifted Swiftmount (so no Thorns gem in it) and full Invoker set, I cleared a GR25 on first try within 5:30, I used Condemn Vaccum to bring the mobs to me, slashed them to hell and back. Also, I have nothing in cube yet on PTR, it's hard to get into a bounty game, and to do them all alone I just don't have time with kids around. Also I didn't get a Belt of the Throve yet.
Long story short, it seems stacking VIT, Attack Speed and CDR is the way to go with Invoker. Also, funny, just with completing the set and focusing on VIT you start out with over 1M life, so early into it.
Still I would leave the STR stat on most items, you will need the armor later on, I believe.
Strength > vit for thorns damage (with heart of iron obviously), i did some basic math on this including gems and the new cube recipe that lets you add more stats to gear and for thorns damage strength is just better, also gives armor and scales with finery, the only instance in which vit would be preffered was if you would use some form of % life return, like simplicity strength for that 2% total life return on primary skills, with high life and attack speed of invoker that might be some nice sustain
optimally for damage every piece of gear would have str and vit with str gems and enchants and then some attack speed/cdr
i also think that rolands would unnecessarily complicate the gameplay and gearing, what i mean by that is that when you sweep you still proc hack only one time and you are not using slash/punish that proc invoker stacks so basicly you swap more invoker stacks for potentially higher uptime on iron skin/provoke and also you lose on some gear slots (if you have 2 pc rolands and heart of iron cubed... no aquila cuirass and that's 50% dr right there)
Been playing around with it quite a bit (vids coming soon, cleared 60 so far very easily) and a few things:
1) There's no room in the build for Finery. You want max attack speed and then block passive. High block chance will build up stacks much quicker in packs and it's way more dps than ~1.5k strength. Also, if you cube Blood Brother and/or Justice Lantern, it's a lot more mitigation as well.
2) I wouldn't use Roland's with this. The burst combo (Provoke/Iron Skin) is nice, but your base damage will suffer greatly if you don't focus on primary attacks.
Yeah, we know now about Physical damage, so, a SoJ might become viable, too.
Just need confirmation about STR/VIT, what would be better for Thorns damage. STR also gives armor, so we shouldn't forget about that, too.
Also, what about damage rolls on weapon/ring amulet?
1) SoJ still no good. Endless Walk combo + Justice Lantern + Unity for solo. Even RoRG is a better choice (then you can use Leorics for more CDR).
2) For cube, much better options out there. Hack + a shield or Swiftmount or something else. 20% from Doom is not worth it. Swiftmount is HIGHLY underrated in grifts, I'm about to break G70 in S5 using it.
3) Damage rolls don't affect thorns.
Did somebody do calculation, is it better to have Topaz for 38K Thorns or go with Diamond in weapon for 20% elite damage?
Or, actually where is the breakpoint that the 20% elite damage is more worth it (like lvl 70 Boyarski Chip with all ancient gear and medium Thorn rolls, or something like that)?
I was also wondering how it works, so i did some testing.
Somebody else reminded us that in one of the previous patches, blizzard changed how thorns scale from STR. I can confirm that it's scaling of 100% of your character's STR.
With 38 thorns damage and 900 STR you do 380 thorns damage - you only need 900% because there is a base damage of 38.
With additional 18% physical damage bonus you do ~448 damage, as you should.
Holy Cause multiplies everything by 10%, also as it should.
Weapon doesn't change your damage at all. I equipped a 3,8k damage INT scourge, and it did nothing. I put an emerald with 110% CHD, and it also did nothing (as we already know it doesn't scale with CHD nor crit%).
To answer to what's better 38k thorns damage or 20% elite damage, one would have to consider how much thorns he already has, and see which value gives better multiplier. If i calculated it correctly, and assuming you only care about elite damage (cause white mobs are not important, right?), if you have more than 190k of thorns damage you're better off with elite damage. Why the weird number? 38k thorns is 20% of 190k, so anything below that is more than 20% elite, and anything above is less than 20% elite.
Because everything is multiplied by everthing i'm talking about base values, as it's easier to follow them on your character sheet.
The answer to which is better VIT or STR is also dependand on your attribute values. If you have 10k STR, and you add another STR gem, it's a 2,8% damage increase. With HoI, every VIT gem is equal to 1400 thorns. It's not much, in fact it's very little in my opinion. To make it a 2,8% damage increase you'd have to sit as low as 50k thorns.
This is what i've found out, if i made mistakes, please do tell. We really should know math behind this interesting mechanic.
So I'm a bit confused:
1) I think the Topaz vs. Diamond calculation is too complex and probably comes down to preference. Yes it's more dmg vs. elites, but you kill trash too WHILE fighting elites (AoE). Then you have to factor in Area Damage procs. I'm rolling with Topaz for now. May need to switch to Diamond unless using Stricken for RG once you hit very high tiers.
2) A bit confused on STR vs. VIT. 1 point of STR is a 1% boost. With HOI, 1 point of VIT is a 5% boost, is it not?
I'm surprised nobody mentioned cubed ingeom for tX speed farming with thorns invoker build. For GR, I've just kind of completed the gear (half ancients, far from perfect rolls) and with the build Quin used for his latest 86 clear, I managed a 74 with no problems on 2nd try (Boy gem at like 52). Afterwards, I only changed laws for pony and put in geom in cube and I was absolutely WRECKING TX. I mean it wasn't even funny, Globaled elites, trash died when I looked at them, + pretty much perma pony and with already high cdr from gear, I had all cds up all the time. Tankiness obviously remained so it was just fast/furious and relaxing gameplay.
So far not, and probably will stay that way. Feel free to roll CDR and AS on rings (or even VIT/AR/Armor). BTW, that's why Justice Lantern and Block chance is great for the Invoker build.
Hey everyone,
I was wondering if there's any definitive Thorns info out there. Seems like it's piecemeal here and there, particularly with some reworks to its mechanics this patch/PTR.
I'm seeing numbers running basic 6 piece Invoker + Hack (and even without Hack) that I can't analyze because the ranges are so vast. Not sure how 100k thorns damage is hitting for over a billion, unless I'm just not looking at the damage multipliers.
Specifically, I'm wondering what it scales with. My understanding (currently) is - strength, global buffs/debuffs (DIBS, elite damage, debuffs like BotT/Zeis/passives, etc) and indirectly attack speed (faster you attack faster it goes off with Hack). That's it. Still can't figure out for sure if it scales with %physical damage or if it scales in any way with weapon damage range (it shouldn't).
Anyone know? TIA
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
I wish blizzard would release these kinds of info to us, I also want to know how thorns indeed work.
Also does the Hack damage from thorns crit?
do you think we need the damage range on hack? or can we roll it to something different?
Also, does Omnislash proc Hack on every enemy hit? I still prefer Belt of the Trove, but just curious.
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
Right, this is my thinking too. Currently using Swiftmount with Hack cubed, but will need to cube Blood Brother I think with Hack as weapon soon. Although, I'm also considering using Pig Sticker (much higher APS and separate damage multipliers for humans/beasts).
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
when looking at your thorns damage, make sure to highlight it in the stat sheet. It only registers until the hundred thousands, the million digits are being cut off. when you highlight it though, the correct number appears.
I started to run an Invoker on PTR season, and asked myself the those questions. I didn't have a hack drop yet, lol, but got an ancient Furnace.
Looking into the fact that it is very dependant on high Iron Skin (300% bonus Thorns when up)/Provoke (if you use shield that gives bonus Thorns to provoked enemies) upkeep and that you get bonus Thorns from "Heart of Iron" leg affix (based on your VIT) I'm even thinking to combine the set with 2 piece Rolands and Sweep Attack (might even do with "only" 4 Invoker parts), and an Obsidian Ring of the Zodiac. I think having all the defensive stats up all the time is more bonus than the 600% Thorns with every Slash/Punish attack. Even if not, I'm theorizing here, don't shoot me).
Actually there are a lot additional items and possibilities, somebody probably will find out something better than I theorize here.
BTW, with a non gifted Swiftmount (so no Thorns gem in it) and full Invoker set, I cleared a GR25 on first try within 5:30, I used Condemn Vaccum to bring the mobs to me, slashed them to hell and back. Also, I have nothing in cube yet on PTR, it's hard to get into a bounty game, and to do them all alone I just don't have time with kids around. Also I didn't get a Belt of the Throve yet.
Long story short, it seems stacking VIT, Attack Speed and CDR is the way to go with Invoker. Also, funny, just with completing the set and focusing on VIT you start out with over 1M life, so early into it.
Still I would leave the STR stat on most items, you will need the armor later on, I believe.
My D3 armory
My Youtube Channel
Been playing around with it quite a bit (vids coming soon, cleared 60 so far very easily) and a few things:
1) There's no room in the build for Finery. You want max attack speed and then block passive. High block chance will build up stacks much quicker in packs and it's way more dps than ~1.5k strength. Also, if you cube Blood Brother and/or Justice Lantern, it's a lot more mitigation as well.
2) I wouldn't use Roland's with this. The burst combo (Provoke/Iron Skin) is nice, but your base damage will suffer greatly if you don't focus on primary attacks.
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
Yeah, we know now about Physical damage, so, a SoJ might become viable, too.
Just need confirmation about STR/VIT, what would be better for Thorns damage. STR also gives armor, so we shouldn't forget about that, too.
Also, what about damage rolls on weapon/ring amulet?
My D3 armory
My Youtube Channel
1) SoJ still no good. Endless Walk combo + Justice Lantern + Unity for solo. Even RoRG is a better choice (then you can use Leorics for more CDR).
2) For cube, much better options out there. Hack + a shield or Swiftmount or something else. 20% from Doom is not worth it. Swiftmount is HIGHLY underrated in grifts, I'm about to break G70 in S5 using it.
3) Damage rolls don't affect thorns.
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
They hotfixed the damage rolls affecting thorns, so it does work now.. I just finished testing it on the PTR with CoE ring.
Did somebody do calculation, is it better to have Topaz for 38K Thorns or go with Diamond in weapon for 20% elite damage?
Or, actually where is the breakpoint that the 20% elite damage is more worth it (like lvl 70 Boyarski Chip with all ancient gear and medium Thorn rolls, or something like that)?
My D3 armory
My Youtube Channel
1) I think the Topaz vs. Diamond calculation is too complex and probably comes down to preference. Yes it's more dmg vs. elites, but you kill trash too WHILE fighting elites (AoE). Then you have to factor in Area Damage procs. I'm rolling with Topaz for now. May need to switch to Diamond unless using Stricken for RG once you hit very high tiers.
2) A bit confused on STR vs. VIT. 1 point of STR is a 1% boost. With HOI, 1 point of VIT is a 5% boost, is it not?
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
I'm surprised nobody mentioned cubed ingeom for tX speed farming with thorns invoker build. For GR, I've just kind of completed the gear (half ancients, far from perfect rolls) and with the build Quin used for his latest 86 clear, I managed a 74 with no problems on 2nd try (Boy gem at like 52). Afterwards, I only changed laws for pony and put in geom in cube and I was absolutely WRECKING TX. I mean it wasn't even funny, Globaled elites, trash died when I looked at them, + pretty much perma pony and with already high cdr from gear, I had all cds up all the time. Tankiness obviously remained so it was just fast/furious and relaxing gameplay.
I'm using hack and full invoker yes. Not sure about the other things. I mean is it even about boosting the dmg of punish?
Akarat's isn't really gimmicky because you'll have 75% or higher (with skills) block chance which is huge. Cube can be either Unity or CoE.
MeatHeadGaming - YouTube - Twitch - Facebook - Web
So far not, and probably will stay that way. Feel free to roll CDR and AS on rings (or even VIT/AR/Armor). BTW, that's why Justice Lantern and Block chance is great for the Invoker build.
Though, +Phys damage on an SoJ would still work.
My D3 armory
My Youtube Channel