I’ve been trying to figure out why Diablo 4 Blizzcon demo failed to feel as dark as Diablo 1 and 2, which is what Blizzard was shooting for. Blizzard, please stop making the monsters glow when you hit them!
What made Diablo 3 feel less dark than its predecessors is coming back in Diablo 4. Blizzard reiterated over and over during Blizzcon that their goal was to bring back the dark and ominous atmosphere from their first two games. I think everyone here can agree that this was absent in Diablo 3. I think that the music, color/light tones, and art of Diablo 4 are getting the darker feel, but when the monsters illuminate when you hit them or highlight when you target them, it kills the mood. If they removed the glow and replaced it with more subtle gore/blood effects, it would make the game feel more immersive. I don’t need the monster to turn white to know I hit it.
Keep in mind that this game is still a long long ways from being done, and this was for the most part, just a demo for Blizzcon, They probably borrowed some assests from D3 to make a quick demo, such as the UI, items drops, and monster high-lightning, since they don't have the lighting effects in yet it, they wanted the players to see the environment before they go and tweak it.
I think they might be aware of it, they also mentioned how they don't want too colorful spell effects - and then the gameplay had lots of visuals going on, in a full party it might be like PoE (which sometimes becomes a crazy clusterfuck with a million colors and effects). I hope they turn it down. It might also have something to do with console compatibility, highlighting selected monsters.
Whatever it is, I agree with you that it should be turned down, in general - less is more. Even in this demo of one players vs a few monsters it was sometimes a lot of visual clutter. Diablo I, admittedly in a different era of PC gaming, had almost none of that.
You also mention sound which I've stressed in multiple places today is really important. I have no idea what the sound in D4 is gonna be like though, haven't really paid attention to the demo sound and it's only one zone anyways.
i posted this in another topic, but i think it suits this discussion:
Diablo 4 is indeed darker than 3, but still not scary...
we are still the equivalent to superheroes killing hordes like they are nothing,
we don't feel alone and afraid vs an unforgiving world
and because it's an mmo you'll actually see other "superheroes" all around you, making the world a joke.
In short it's completely different from d1 or d2 where you feel like just a weak dude vs hell itself,
they should have taken a hint from games like dark souls or bloodborne... make it scary...
blizzard dark is a bunch of gore and blood with no real substance, no real fear of it. sad day.
Agreed, but at least they have the right intention this time. The problem is deep, though. It's core gameplay and feel. And I think it all stems from "loot culture". That's the one aspect they keep reinforcing as fundamental to diablo that I fully disagree.
You can't be afraid of piñatas.
Oh! And let's hope they got decent writers this time! D3 was cringe worthy.
I'm completely agree. The game looks fine in dungeons, but when the character is outdoor, the visual feeling is very gray, you don't see deep blacks in the overall image. It looks very low contrasted and not scary dark and ominous atmosphere. Maybe it is explained because of the day/night time or weather conditions.
i posted this in another topic, but i think it suits this discussion:
Diablo 4 is indeed darker than 3, but still not scary...
we are still the equivalent to superheroes killing hordes like they are nothing,
we don't feel alone and afraid vs an unforgiving world
and because it's an mmo you'll actually see other "superheroes" all around you, making the world a joke.
Diablo 2 was the same once you gained some levels, frozen orbing and whirlwinding everything down. Or even a high level mage in D1 spamming chain lightning, teleporting around the levels instantly doing Laz runs. The horror aspect never really worked past the early game.
Welcome to the forums. Keep in mind there are a lot of options and details we just don't know yet. Many games have highlight effects that you can turn on and off, like Divinity. That way its both accessible for new players and immersive veterans. Although there are some features from D3, you cannot deny the grittiness, textures, and dark corners are indeed a step in the right direction. This is a demo for Blizzcon, expect many changes. I played the Diablo 3 Blizzcon demo 10 years ago, and it was a completely different game to compared what it is today.
Back in D3 alpha days I said the same things to people "game is not done yet.." on many things and features that we wanted. Yeah, some things never changed, some got worse, but I think most got better post launch. Even when it was a bit too late on some aspects.
Best way to give out feedback is to be both constructive and to continue to give the kind of feedback you / we want.
It seems developers will take note of the majority of ideas and agreements from communities across medias on the web in portions.
It also seems they do not have time to pick up ideas as such right now, but will be pretty soon. If fans are aggressive in terms of constructive critic and feedback, I hope the D4 team can implement it and make it work.
It's somewhat as dark or darker than D2, it's clearly isn't as dark as D1, not looking at the stream at least.
It might be important to point out we've also only seen like 5% of the overall map and dungeons. If you would only see the Caves in Diablo 1 which is grey but clearly not dark, or Act2 or Act5 of Diablo 2, you would also say, meh, not really dark.
TBH, Diablo 1 Cathedral is the darkest place, it's dark, it's grey.
Diablo 2 dark places also are things like Cathedral, Flayer's Dungeon, things like that, it's dark, gloomy, but again.
Diablo 4
So value-wise, it's really not that far off, colors are much tamer than D3, values are pretty good. A little note here for people who watch Twitch streamers play. The blacks are totally lost, either from compression or I dont know, so yeah, it's a bit weird they didn't try to get the brightness right. If you inspect the values from what you get in twitch, the pixels who should be pure black (outside the walls in a dungeon say) are floored at like a value of 20 grey, which is a bid deal, you lose about 10% of your dynamic range, so game looks a bit milky on stream.
When it comes to the theme. The game looks wayyyy more gory than any other games we've had so far. I mean, there are camps where tents are basically bloody, fleshy, flapping around. There's ALOT of blood, and it looks great, your character gets blood on him when you swing. The drowned zombies are pretty frkin ugly gory too, did you see that sea witch or whatever that fat bloated zombie lady when she dies? She burst, and bile and blood is spewing out as her bloated intestines cover the floor.
It has already been explained. If you haven't played the demo yourself, you are getting a washed up experience. All the twitch and virtual streams do not do justice to the game. The game appears washed and low Res, which is not . Please research and play the demo before you spread "facts".
Hoesntly watching grown men and women profess how DARK there game is every 5 seconds is a little pathetic, a lot of it just feels like the nonsense a 12 year old would come up with because they haven't worked out that being scary is about more than covering stuff in various bodily fluids.
Watching from home, the visuals do look washed out and a bit drab to me but apparently that's an issue with how this streaming is working, so we'll see what happens there.
The thing is that "darkness" is not a color scheme or gore sprayed over the map.
It's themes, atmosphere, writing, gameplay...
It's good to hear blizzard saying they are trying to make the game dark, but what worries me the most is the possibility that the people there don't know what darkness is. Hearing the developers saying things like "we want you to feel like a badass" is very against their original goal.
You don't feel like a badass when you confront your worst fears. You don't feel invincible when facing the abyss...
I'm still hopeful, though. It might bot be dark but as long as the gameplay is fulfilling (not just loot cycles/ fetch quests/ bullet sponge mmo bosses) and the writing and themes are good (different writers from diablo3) it should be a decent fun sequel.
Speaking from my own experience, what truly made the game experience dark and scary for me when i played Diablo 1 23 years ago was the Atmosphere set by the music.
Distant screams and ominous sounds of creatures, indistinguishable muttering and voices of whispers. Hair raising strings which bent to the point of discomfort, Distant and pounding drums, and a sense of a huge dark space filled with nasty and dark creatures. All through the power of Audio.
The music gave you a sense of something constantly breathing down your neck, you were never alone but you felt lonely surrounded by things which wanted to kill you.
That in combination with a grim and dark color palette and visuals beyond anything else that existed on the market at the time.
One thing i found annoying as hell is that all streamers tuned down the music and the sound effects ingame which made it really hard to get a better grasp of the feeling the music brought to the world. Something that has been extremely impactful in the earlier installments of the franchise.
The story telling , the voice acting everything adds to the atmosphere of the game.
I remember opening one of those tomes which had this ominous voice, telling the story of the sin wars in Diablo 1. That kind of voice gave me the shivers it felt very dark and unwelcoming, yet intriguing.
I think they have started of good with what they have shown us so far. I am eager to see more, but certain things are hard to talk about when you have not had a direct experience with them.
If there's someone from blizzard reading this, i would love more samples of audio and music from the game to be made public. Would be happy to provide feedback and examples aswell.
I am totally for the darkness in storytelling, voice acting, music, graphics and the world. However what some people are longing for is the more hardcore feel of the old Diablo games, basically the feeling of being less powerful, compared to the things around you. For many people, myself include, this would be a negative thing. The aspect that makes Diablo III combat so satisfying in some cases (Uliana's set is a great example) is that you are that incredibly powerful being. This doesn't mean, that the game should be super easy, that there should be no challenge. But if we make the game so difficult, that you feel genuinely threatened by monsters, would create a great atmosphere, but as an ARPG it would not be satisfying to play.
BUT what I would LOVE, is a "true hardcore" mode where, should you choose it, the game becomes more challenging and the atmosphere more hostile. Maybe the area that your character lights up could be smaller, monsters not flash when hit, and maybe it could be it bit more zoomed in. Everything you need to make it more immersive. As an optional experience I feel this would be great.
Something similar to the modes in some horror games, where key objects don't get highlighted, hints and tutorials, maybe some helpful HUD elements are disabled.
what some people are longing for is the more hardcore feel of the old Diablo games, basically the feeling of being less powerful, compared to the things around you. For many people, myself include, this would be a negative thing.
I like games I can handle, but I would support the idea of having a very hard difficulty where, no matter what item and level you are at, you should feel powerless against bosses and mini bosses.
I do not think we need many difficulties, key is to have a wide variety in each difficulty so it doesnt scale straight % for whole game during 1 difficulty. It seems like they are adding in harder places and dungeons even if you would pick, for example the easiest difficulty.
No idea if you can pick this from the start, or if they will make you go through them one by one. No idea how they will go on about making the game harder either. If they have a cap and not paragon levels, the threat would be easier to handle in terms of difficulty. But they have stated they want replayability as well as rewards for continue to play, with some kind of paragon system in place.
They often talk about the first encounter of the Butcher in Diablo 1, to those that remember you got killed quick if you weren't prepaired. I panicked the first time, and the second time I dreaded open the door, so I saved that door until last of that area, collecting gold and made, what I believe slow strategy to meet him. I think I died again, but I kept on trying.
D4 team have a whole lot of things to make sure happens. Casual players, (mostly those that played D3 as their first) do not need to hold hands with papa anymore. If they want to please everyone, casual, casual +, hardcore and serious pro gamers (?) they need the options, and not narrow it down for balance reasons, they need options for us to explore. The things that is too easy will be enough for a few times while the higher difficulties needs to be something we wanna revisit if we are into it. Or medium difficulties for that matter. Replayability is only a thing if you are having fun.
I see this project very difficult in itself to become great for all parts. Diablo 3 kind of put as a tripping leg to the development. If Diablo 4 was the true Diablo 3 the transaction would've become smoother, but less experience attached to it since Diablo 3 thought the developers a great deal, even though most of them went on to other projects. Glad to see some returning, I think thats passion.
Embrace the darkness, sure.. But it needs to be something that makes you scared of open doors, even if you think you are well equiped, which I wish, you never are in the higher difficulty. Not even against regular mobs.
Cross fingers there will be something for everyone. Solo / Co-Op seems to get close to equal love this time. Glad to hear since I grew up with D1 without internet.
I am totally agree with Derplol; Blizzard, please stop making the monsters glow when you hit them!
What made Diablo 3 feel less dark than its predecessors is coming back in Diablo 4.
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What made Diablo 3 feel less dark than its predecessors is coming back in Diablo 4. Blizzard reiterated over and over during Blizzcon that their goal was to bring back the dark and ominous atmosphere from their first two games. I think everyone here can agree that this was absent in Diablo 3. I think that the music, color/light tones, and art of Diablo 4 are getting the darker feel, but when the monsters illuminate when you hit them or highlight when you target them, it kills the mood. If they removed the glow and replaced it with more subtle gore/blood effects, it would make the game feel more immersive. I don’t need the monster to turn white to know I hit it.
See screenshot: https://i.imgur.com/vMwz2BV.jpg
Keep in mind that this game is still a long long ways from being done, and this was for the most part, just a demo for Blizzcon, They probably borrowed some assests from D3 to make a quick demo, such as the UI, items drops, and monster high-lightning, since they don't have the lighting effects in yet it, they wanted the players to see the environment before they go and tweak it.
https://www.deviantart.com/aerisot
I think they might be aware of it, they also mentioned how they don't want too colorful spell effects - and then the gameplay had lots of visuals going on, in a full party it might be like PoE (which sometimes becomes a crazy clusterfuck with a million colors and effects). I hope they turn it down. It might also have something to do with console compatibility, highlighting selected monsters.
Whatever it is, I agree with you that it should be turned down, in general - less is more. Even in this demo of one players vs a few monsters it was sometimes a lot of visual clutter. Diablo I, admittedly in a different era of PC gaming, had almost none of that.
You also mention sound which I've stressed in multiple places today is really important. I have no idea what the sound in D4 is gonna be like though, haven't really paid attention to the demo sound and it's only one zone anyways.
i posted this in another topic, but i think it suits this discussion:
Diablo 4 is indeed darker than 3, but still not scary...
we are still the equivalent to superheroes killing hordes like they are nothing,
we don't feel alone and afraid vs an unforgiving world
and because it's an mmo you'll actually see other "superheroes" all around you, making the world a joke.
In short it's completely different from d1 or d2 where you feel like just a weak dude vs hell itself,
they should have taken a hint from games like dark souls or bloodborne... make it scary...
blizzard dark is a bunch of gore and blood with no real substance, no real fear of it. sad day.
Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
Agreed, but at least they have the right intention this time. The problem is deep, though. It's core gameplay and feel. And I think it all stems from "loot culture". That's the one aspect they keep reinforcing as fundamental to diablo that I fully disagree.
You can't be afraid of piñatas.
Oh! And let's hope they got decent writers this time! D3 was cringe worthy.
I'm completely agree. The game looks fine in dungeons, but when the character is outdoor, the visual feeling is very gray, you don't see deep blacks in the overall image. It looks very low contrasted and not scary dark and ominous atmosphere. Maybe it is explained because of the day/night time or weather conditions.
Diablo 2 was the same once you gained some levels, frozen orbing and whirlwinding everything down. Or even a high level mage in D1 spamming chain lightning, teleporting around the levels instantly doing Laz runs. The horror aspect never really worked past the early game.
Welcome to the forums. Keep in mind there are a lot of options and details we just don't know yet. Many games have highlight effects that you can turn on and off, like Divinity. That way its both accessible for new players and immersive veterans. Although there are some features from D3, you cannot deny the grittiness, textures, and dark corners are indeed a step in the right direction. This is a demo for Blizzcon, expect many changes. I played the Diablo 3 Blizzcon demo 10 years ago, and it was a completely different game to compared what it is today.
Back in D3 alpha days I said the same things to people "game is not done yet.." on many things and features that we wanted. Yeah, some things never changed, some got worse, but I think most got better post launch. Even when it was a bit too late on some aspects.
Best way to give out feedback is to be both constructive and to continue to give the kind of feedback you / we want.
It seems developers will take note of the majority of ideas and agreements from communities across medias on the web in portions.
It also seems they do not have time to pick up ideas as such right now, but will be pretty soon. If fans are aggressive in terms of constructive critic and feedback, I hope the D4 team can implement it and make it work.
:: Enkeria [Twitter / Twitch / Website / Tattoos]
Judging a game this harshly when it won't even be out for 1-2 years at a minimum.
Hilarious.
It's somewhat as dark or darker than D2, it's clearly isn't as dark as D1, not looking at the stream at least.
It might be important to point out we've also only seen like 5% of the overall map and dungeons. If you would only see the Caves in Diablo 1 which is grey but clearly not dark, or Act2 or Act5 of Diablo 2, you would also say, meh, not really dark.
TBH, Diablo 1 Cathedral is the darkest place, it's dark, it's grey.
Diablo 2 dark places also are things like Cathedral, Flayer's Dungeon, things like that, it's dark, gloomy, but again.
Diablo 4
So value-wise, it's really not that far off, colors are much tamer than D3, values are pretty good. A little note here for people who watch Twitch streamers play. The blacks are totally lost, either from compression or I dont know, so yeah, it's a bit weird they didn't try to get the brightness right. If you inspect the values from what you get in twitch, the pixels who should be pure black (outside the walls in a dungeon say) are floored at like a value of 20 grey, which is a bid deal, you lose about 10% of your dynamic range, so game looks a bit milky on stream.
When it comes to the theme. The game looks wayyyy more gory than any other games we've had so far. I mean, there are camps where tents are basically bloody, fleshy, flapping around. There's ALOT of blood, and it looks great, your character gets blood on him when you swing. The drowned zombies are pretty frkin ugly gory too, did you see that sea witch or whatever that fat bloated zombie lady when she dies? She burst, and bile and blood is spewing out as her bloated intestines cover the floor.
It has already been explained. If you haven't played the demo yourself, you are getting a washed up experience. All the twitch and virtual streams do not do justice to the game. The game appears washed and low Res, which is not . Please research and play the demo before you spread "facts".
Hoesntly watching grown men and women profess how DARK there game is every 5 seconds is a little pathetic, a lot of it just feels like the nonsense a 12 year old would come up with because they haven't worked out that being scary is about more than covering stuff in various bodily fluids.
Watching from home, the visuals do look washed out and a bit drab to me but apparently that's an issue with how this streaming is working, so we'll see what happens there.
During Rhykker's talk with David Kim at Blizzcon Twitch stream, he mentioned they played around with the ideas about that.
Timestamp: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/502745002?t=01h48m12s
:: Enkeria [Twitter / Twitch / Website / Tattoos]
The thing is that "darkness" is not a color scheme or gore sprayed over the map.
It's themes, atmosphere, writing, gameplay...
It's good to hear blizzard saying they are trying to make the game dark, but what worries me the most is the possibility that the people there don't know what darkness is. Hearing the developers saying things like "we want you to feel like a badass" is very against their original goal.
You don't feel like a badass when you confront your worst fears. You don't feel invincible when facing the abyss...
I'm still hopeful, though. It might bot be dark but as long as the gameplay is fulfilling (not just loot cycles/ fetch quests/ bullet sponge mmo bosses) and the writing and themes are good (different writers from diablo3) it should be a decent fun sequel.
What ppl want: D1 &D2 Experience
What blizzard want: Money!
What do they give: Another D3 experience xD
Speaking from my own experience, what truly made the game experience dark and scary for me when i played Diablo 1 23 years ago was the Atmosphere set by the music.
Distant screams and ominous sounds of creatures, indistinguishable muttering and voices of whispers. Hair raising strings which bent to the point of discomfort, Distant and pounding drums, and a sense of a huge dark space filled with nasty and dark creatures. All through the power of Audio.
The music gave you a sense of something constantly breathing down your neck, you were never alone but you felt lonely surrounded by things which wanted to kill you.
That in combination with a grim and dark color palette and visuals beyond anything else that existed on the market at the time.
One thing i found annoying as hell is that all streamers tuned down the music and the sound effects ingame which made it really hard to get a better grasp of the feeling the music brought to the world. Something that has been extremely impactful in the earlier installments of the franchise.
The story telling , the voice acting everything adds to the atmosphere of the game.
I remember opening one of those tomes which had this ominous voice, telling the story of the sin wars in Diablo 1. That kind of voice gave me the shivers it felt very dark and unwelcoming, yet intriguing.
I think they have started of good with what they have shown us so far. I am eager to see more, but certain things are hard to talk about when you have not had a direct experience with them.
If there's someone from blizzard reading this, i would love more samples of audio and music from the game to be made public. Would be happy to provide feedback and examples aswell.
I am totally for the darkness in storytelling, voice acting, music, graphics and the world. However what some people are longing for is the more hardcore feel of the old Diablo games, basically the feeling of being less powerful, compared to the things around you. For many people, myself include, this would be a negative thing. The aspect that makes Diablo III combat so satisfying in some cases (Uliana's set is a great example) is that you are that incredibly powerful being. This doesn't mean, that the game should be super easy, that there should be no challenge. But if we make the game so difficult, that you feel genuinely threatened by monsters, would create a great atmosphere, but as an ARPG it would not be satisfying to play.
BUT what I would LOVE, is a "true hardcore" mode where, should you choose it, the game becomes more challenging and the atmosphere more hostile. Maybe the area that your character lights up could be smaller, monsters not flash when hit, and maybe it could be it bit more zoomed in. Everything you need to make it more immersive. As an optional experience I feel this would be great.
Something similar to the modes in some horror games, where key objects don't get highlighted, hints and tutorials, maybe some helpful HUD elements are disabled.
I like games I can handle, but I would support the idea of having a very hard difficulty where, no matter what item and level you are at, you should feel powerless against bosses and mini bosses.
I do not think we need many difficulties, key is to have a wide variety in each difficulty so it doesnt scale straight % for whole game during 1 difficulty. It seems like they are adding in harder places and dungeons even if you would pick, for example the easiest difficulty.
No idea if you can pick this from the start, or if they will make you go through them one by one. No idea how they will go on about making the game harder either. If they have a cap and not paragon levels, the threat would be easier to handle in terms of difficulty. But they have stated they want replayability as well as rewards for continue to play, with some kind of paragon system in place.
They often talk about the first encounter of the Butcher in Diablo 1, to those that remember you got killed quick if you weren't prepaired. I panicked the first time, and the second time I dreaded open the door, so I saved that door until last of that area, collecting gold and made, what I believe slow strategy to meet him. I think I died again, but I kept on trying.
D4 team have a whole lot of things to make sure happens. Casual players, (mostly those that played D3 as their first) do not need to hold hands with papa anymore. If they want to please everyone, casual, casual +, hardcore and serious pro gamers (?) they need the options, and not narrow it down for balance reasons, they need options for us to explore. The things that is too easy will be enough for a few times while the higher difficulties needs to be something we wanna revisit if we are into it. Or medium difficulties for that matter. Replayability is only a thing if you are having fun.
I see this project very difficult in itself to become great for all parts. Diablo 3 kind of put as a tripping leg to the development. If Diablo 4 was the true Diablo 3 the transaction would've become smoother, but less experience attached to it since Diablo 3 thought the developers a great deal, even though most of them went on to other projects. Glad to see some returning, I think thats passion.
Embrace the darkness, sure.. But it needs to be something that makes you scared of open doors, even if you think you are well equiped, which I wish, you never are in the higher difficulty. Not even against regular mobs.
Cross fingers there will be something for everyone. Solo / Co-Op seems to get close to equal love this time. Glad to hear since I grew up with D1 without internet.
:: Enkeria [Twitter / Twitch / Website / Tattoos]
I am totally agree with Derplol; Blizzard, please stop making the monsters glow when you hit them!
What made Diablo 3 feel less dark than its predecessors is coming back in Diablo 4.