Well I'll just leave it as this. Based on itirnitii's well-articulated post I agree with him… The issue is modifying any of these into non slot passives, short durations, or entirely changing the abilities requires a lot of time and balancing. Considering this game has a lot of issues on hand I don't think taking additional time delaying RoS is ideal for Blizzard or any Diablo fan. Redesigning 14ish abilities is a significant amount, I say this would be better for a future patch.
If you were really serious about you need to build an argument and explain every little detail to get popularity. This eventually leads to Blizzard paying attention as it has happened to a couple of members from this site. What I see is you basically said “I want to push more buttons” here is my 30-60 minute worth of effort to address the issue. I think itirnitii explain the problem better in about ¼ the amount of words, now you need to figure out how to redesign 14 abilities and make them appealing enough to use but not overshadow other classes or other abilities.
Anyways I’ma stop being a troll now and piss on someone else’s thread
This is a true compliment because I hardly ever get accused of being terse and to the point.
I agree with most of his points, however, slayer, just because the better fix takes longer wouldn't mean they need to leave it be how it is until then. A band-aid fix may be insufficient to others... but unless it can be disputed that the timer needs to stay until these skills as a whole are reworked...then I see no reason to keep them there.
Anyways, if I'm becoming over bearing repeating what I've already stated, then I'll ease off and just respect the fact you at least identify that the real issue is how the skills are somewhat flawed in the way they are presently.
I never wanted to make the thread about details of reworking the spells but I suppose the general message that they need to be still finds it's way into the core of the subject.
At the very least, I'll continue to ignorantly believe dealing with the issue of the duration would divert unnoticeable effort/time away from the up coming expansion.
No worries You entitled to your ideas and can freely state them. I just like to be a dick sometimes, this place is my source of entertainment when I'm bored at work. You are at least trying to make a topic and address something your passionate about, I don't because I'm lazy and it's easier to pick at other people's work other than my own.
I think fixing these properly will be a decent overhaul when it almost seems that these abilities should just be removed since they actually take away more choices then what they create.
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Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
I think fixing these properly will be a decent overhaul when it almost seems that these abilities should just be removed since they actually take away more choices then what they create.
I do, mostly, agree with this. I really wouldn't want every "passive" active ability to turn into a mantra and it seems the only one that has a decent suggestion so far is Storm Armor having a Static-like effect. But we do know that all skills are being re-worked with RoS... maybe it's better just to add a week or two and do things right. I don't know.
Yeah, I'm not going to complain necessarily that this is a repeated thread, just kinda keeps the conversation going...so I'll just reiterate my point to get involved, :-D
I agree that any "active skills" should have an active element, if design leaves room open for it. Obviously, people can use their imaginations and find any way for a "passively active" skill like an armor buff to be turned into something more "active," but (if we're really going to get semantic), it is active in the sense that you need to activate it. REactivating it to reset the buff is only us repeatedly hitting a button to get around the timed downside. And usually, that only occurs between battles, and not so much IN battle.
A lot of people bring up Monk Mantras, however this concept is slightly more prevalent for Wizards. The thing is, Spirit doesn't regenerate...and when it does, it's not nearly as fast as Arcane Power. Thus, for Monks, putting a Mantra/buff on your active skill bar can help greatly, but at the cost of time and resource. There's a distinct trade-off. You're trading precious Spirit you could be using for more Attacks on rebuffing a skill that dies after a set duration.
For Wizards, it's more of an itchy annoyance, because the only downside for active skill buffs is time. Arcane Power regenerates quickly enough that really the only time when it becomes "bad" is when an Armor or Power buff dies in battle. Between battles, it's just maintenance, which leads people to get "bored" with "passively active skills."
My best answer to this is really simple...if rebuffing with "passively active skills" feels boring, then you should use skills that are more active. Go without an armor skill or a Mantra or a power skill. Of course, the usual response to that is, "but I can't! They're required!" With all due respect...meh. Not really convinced. I've experimented plenty with going without armor and power spells, and the only real problem I run into is needing better gear. If I was wearing souped AH gear, I'd go without Armor or Power Spells and use what I want. Since my Wizard is self-found, I need to use at least an Armor spell. I don't use the Power Spells, and I can still usually handle MP3 or 4.
Thus, my estimation is that this concept will either go away or fade a bit with Loot 2.0.
At Blizzcon, for instance, they redebuted the new Frostburn Gauntlets, a pair of gloves once thought (in D3 anyway) to be instant brimstones. Dropping in the expansion, they will a 50% chance to Freeze on Attack. At the event, they demonstrated it with a single-target attack Ray of Frost, but I can only imagine how insane this item will be with AoE spells, and/or a full 100% Cold Wizard build combined with Cold-Blooded!
In other words, with that kind of a reliable crowd control option, as well as a focused defensive Paragon Point stat spec and powerfully boosted gear in the expansion...if you consider armor buff skills "boring," it may be entirely viable to go without one very soon. Hell, if you pair Frostburns up with skills that proc it enough, and enough Move Speed, you may even be able to ditch Diamond Skin as well. After all, that's usually an emergency skill anyway...almost more boring than Armor skills, if you think about it, as it's only used when you're in danger.
So with all due respect...be brave. Don't do what you think the game is requiring of you, and try builds that don't use skills you don't like. This game is made for experimenting and trying things to find what suits you. I love my Wizard's Arcane Hydra-Disruption combo, and by the looks of the previews, it's only going to be stronger in the expansion. And with Paragon Points to help fill in the gaps, ditching Energy Armor may be a blesssing, :-)
The problem with that line of reasoning is that you're ignoring a skill not because of what it does, but because it is boring to use. You love what it has to offer, but it is so uninspiring that you feel the need to choose something else. What does that say about the skill in question? It speaks volumes in and of itself that the skill should be replaced or redesigned. If you're not considering all of your active skill choices mutually for their effects, but instead choosing your skills based on their lack of tedium and level of contribution to your action oriented gameplay, to me that is a huge warning sign of a design problem.
So with all due respect...be brave. Don't do what you think the game is requiring of you, and try builds that don't use skills you don't like. This game is made for experimenting and trying things to find what suits you. I love my Wizard's Arcane Hydra-Disruption combo, and by the looks of the previews, it's only going to be stronger in the expansion. And with Paragon Points to help fill in the gaps, ditching Energy Armor may be a blesssing, :-)
I didn't see that kind of attitude in the 'BoA Legendaries' thread
Well, I do tend to be mostly optimistic about a game I like. When too many angry folks twist my words around, it gets a little aggravating...and this type of positivity doesn't work quite as well as a counter-argument, ;-)
The problem with that line of reasoning is that you're ignoring a skill not because of what it does, but because it is boring to use. You love what it has to offer, but it is so uninspiring that you feel the need to choose something else. What does that say about the skill in question? It speaks volumes in and of itself that the skill should be replaced or redesigned. If you're not considering all of your active skill choices mutually for their effects, but instead choosing your skills based on their lack of tedium and level of contribution to your action oriented gameplay, to me that is a huge warning sign of a design problem.
It really comes down to a matter of personal perspective. You're seeing my perspective about skill choice as a LACK of tedium. I'm just saying...choose what you like and find a way to make it work...or choose what works and enjoy! More of a glass-half-full as opposed to half-empty situation.
An Armor spell, for example, has a simple purpose...buff your Armor. You can suggest a ton of possible things for the skill to do in addition to buffing Armor, but the better those additional things are, the less you're buffing your Armor, and the more you're doing cool stuff...and happen to be buffing your armor at the same time. Which would make the skill look even more muddled.
Besides which, with the coming Paragon Points...Armor%, Life%, All Res, Dodge Chance, Strength, Dexterity, Vitality...there a lot of places to put Paragon Points that can raise a Wizard's overall Protection/EHP. So coming soon, there will be even less reason to use Armor Spells, Power Enchancing Spells, etc. However, don't think I don't understand where you're coming from.
Let's look at it another way...here's what I said previously...
At Blizzcon, for instance, they redebuted the new Frostburn Gauntlets, a pair of gloves once thought (in D3 anyway) to be instant brimstones. Dropping in the expansion, they will a 50% chance to Freeze on Attack. At the event, they demonstrated it with a single-target attack Ray of Frost, but I can only imagine how insane this item will be with AoE spells, and/or a full 100% Cold Wizard build combined with Cold-Blooded!
In other words, with that kind of a reliable crowd control option, as well as a focused defensive Paragon Point stat spec and powerfully boosted gear in the expansion...if you consider armor buff skills "boring," it may be entirely viable to go without one very soon. Hell, if you pair Frostburns up with skills that proc it enough, and enough Move Speed, you may even be able to ditch Diamond Skin as well. After all, that's usually an emergency skill anyway...almost more boring than Armor skills, if you think about it, as it's only used when you're in danger.
That was an example of a way to go WITHOUT an Armor spell.
If a particular Wizard likes skills like Spectral Blades, Explosive Blast, Wave of Force...those skills require a Wizard to be up close and personal. So in that case...why not buff defensive stats with Paragon Points, throw on an Armor spell, maybe even a Shield if one is feeling tanky, and get right up in monsters' faces? In the expansion, I feel like such a build would be WAY more viable than it is now. Depending on how much it costs to respec, I'd love to experiment with a high Strength/Armor Wizard.
Currently, they're redesigning a lot of skills for all the classes, as well as providing a ton of new item affix passives, so I think seeing how gear effects skills and build diversity in Loot 2.0 is best.
After all, if we find cool Wizard builds (just for example), that both make use of Armor spells and builds that don't, will this be as significant an issue?
Seeing the changes coming to Mystic Ally (Monk), there is NO excuse for the current versions of armors, Magic Weapon, or Barb's shouts. Something should happen when you push the button, and you should think about when and where you want to push that button. Mystic Ally looks MUCH better, it's exactly the kind of solution to this problem. It'd be interesting to see if they extend this to Doctor pets somehow.
Seeing the changes coming to Mystic Ally (Monk), there is NO excuse for the current versions of armors, Magic Weapon, or Barb's shouts. Something should happen when you push the button, and you should think about when and where you want to push that button. Mystic Ally looks MUCH better, it's exactly the kind of solution to this problem. It'd be interesting to see if they extend this to Doctor pets somehow.
Maybe sacrifice could be blended into the dogs somehow? Like, the Summon Dogs skill passively creates 3 dogs and rebirths them a few seconds after they die. You can activate the skill to blow them all up, but on a cooldown.
The different runes could have effects for the dog type and explosion type.
Seeing the changes coming to Mystic Ally (Monk), there is NO excuse for the current versions of armors, Magic Weapon, or Barb's shouts. Something should happen when you push the button, and you should think about when and where you want to push that button. Mystic Ally looks MUCH better, it's exactly the kind of solution to this problem. It'd be interesting to see if they extend this to Doctor pets somehow.
Maybe sacrifice could be blended into the dogs somehow? Like, the Summon Dogs skill passively creates 3 dogs and rebirths them a few seconds after they die. You can activate the skill to blow them all up, but on a cooldown.
The different runes could have effects for the dog type and explosion type.
That was my first thought as well. They have to do something, b/c Sacrifice is worthless w/o the cooldown gear.
Seeing the changes coming to Mystic Ally (Monk), there is NO excuse for the current versions of armors, Magic Weapon, or Barb's shouts. Something should happen when you push the button, and you should think about when and where you want to push that button. Mystic Ally looks MUCH better, it's exactly the kind of solution to this problem. It'd be interesting to see if they extend this to Doctor pets somehow.
Maybe sacrifice could be blended into the dogs somehow? Like, the Summon Dogs skill passively creates 3 dogs and rebirths them a few seconds after they die. You can activate the skill to blow them all up, but on a cooldown.
The different runes could have effects for the dog type and explosion type.
That was my first thought as well. They have to do something, b/c Sacrifice is worthless w/o the cooldown gear.
I agree, I used to run Sacrifice all the time, but it just isn't worth it.
This same basic format could be used for the all the buff skills, though. Magic Weapon could be activated to perform a powerful melee attack with your equipped weapon, for instance. The armor spells could produce an aoe explosion around you with varying effects. I really hope they take the new form of Mystic Ally and run with it.
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This is a true compliment because I hardly ever get accused of being terse and to the point.
Top 10 Solo Wizard Leaderboard - North America
Highest: Rank 6 // Greater Rift 42 12m40s
Anyways, if I'm becoming over bearing repeating what I've already stated, then I'll ease off and just respect the fact you at least identify that the real issue is how the skills are somewhat flawed in the way they are presently.
I never wanted to make the thread about details of reworking the spells but I suppose the general message that they need to be still finds it's way into the core of the subject.
At the very least, I'll continue to ignorantly believe dealing with the issue of the duration would divert unnoticeable effort/time away from the up coming expansion.
I think fixing these properly will be a decent overhaul when it almost seems that these abilities should just be removed since they actually take away more choices then what they create.
I do, mostly, agree with this. I really wouldn't want every "passive" active ability to turn into a mantra and it seems the only one that has a decent suggestion so far is Storm Armor having a Static-like effect. But we do know that all skills are being re-worked with RoS... maybe it's better just to add a week or two and do things right. I don't know.
I agree that any "active skills" should have an active element, if design leaves room open for it. Obviously, people can use their imaginations and find any way for a "passively active" skill like an armor buff to be turned into something more "active," but (if we're really going to get semantic), it is active in the sense that you need to activate it. REactivating it to reset the buff is only us repeatedly hitting a button to get around the timed downside. And usually, that only occurs between battles, and not so much IN battle.
A lot of people bring up Monk Mantras, however this concept is slightly more prevalent for Wizards. The thing is, Spirit doesn't regenerate...and when it does, it's not nearly as fast as Arcane Power. Thus, for Monks, putting a Mantra/buff on your active skill bar can help greatly, but at the cost of time and resource. There's a distinct trade-off. You're trading precious Spirit you could be using for more Attacks on rebuffing a skill that dies after a set duration.
For Wizards, it's more of an itchy annoyance, because the only downside for active skill buffs is time. Arcane Power regenerates quickly enough that really the only time when it becomes "bad" is when an Armor or Power buff dies in battle. Between battles, it's just maintenance, which leads people to get "bored" with "passively active skills."
My best answer to this is really simple...if rebuffing with "passively active skills" feels boring, then you should use skills that are more active. Go without an armor skill or a Mantra or a power skill. Of course, the usual response to that is, "but I can't! They're required!" With all due respect...meh. Not really convinced. I've experimented plenty with going without armor and power spells, and the only real problem I run into is needing better gear. If I was wearing souped AH gear, I'd go without Armor or Power Spells and use what I want. Since my Wizard is self-found, I need to use at least an Armor spell. I don't use the Power Spells, and I can still usually handle MP3 or 4.
Thus, my estimation is that this concept will either go away or fade a bit with Loot 2.0.
At Blizzcon, for instance, they redebuted the new Frostburn Gauntlets, a pair of gloves once thought (in D3 anyway) to be instant brimstones. Dropping in the expansion, they will a 50% chance to Freeze on Attack. At the event, they demonstrated it with a single-target attack Ray of Frost, but I can only imagine how insane this item will be with AoE spells, and/or a full 100% Cold Wizard build combined with Cold-Blooded!
In other words, with that kind of a reliable crowd control option, as well as a focused defensive Paragon Point stat spec and powerfully boosted gear in the expansion...if you consider armor buff skills "boring," it may be entirely viable to go without one very soon. Hell, if you pair Frostburns up with skills that proc it enough, and enough Move Speed, you may even be able to ditch Diamond Skin as well. After all, that's usually an emergency skill anyway...almost more boring than Armor skills, if you think about it, as it's only used when you're in danger.
So with all due respect...be brave. Don't do what you think the game is requiring of you, and try builds that don't use skills you don't like. This game is made for experimenting and trying things to find what suits you. I love my Wizard's Arcane Hydra-Disruption combo, and by the looks of the previews, it's only going to be stronger in the expansion. And with Paragon Points to help fill in the gaps, ditching Energy Armor may be a blesssing, :-)
Top 10 Solo Wizard Leaderboard - North America
Highest: Rank 6 // Greater Rift 42 12m40s
Well, I do tend to be mostly optimistic about a game I like. When too many angry folks twist my words around, it gets a little aggravating...and this type of positivity doesn't work quite as well as a counter-argument, ;-)
It really comes down to a matter of personal perspective. You're seeing my perspective about skill choice as a LACK of tedium. I'm just saying...choose what you like and find a way to make it work...or choose what works and enjoy! More of a glass-half-full as opposed to half-empty situation.
An Armor spell, for example, has a simple purpose...buff your Armor. You can suggest a ton of possible things for the skill to do in addition to buffing Armor, but the better those additional things are, the less you're buffing your Armor, and the more you're doing cool stuff...and happen to be buffing your armor at the same time. Which would make the skill look even more muddled.
Besides which, with the coming Paragon Points...Armor%, Life%, All Res, Dodge Chance, Strength, Dexterity, Vitality...there a lot of places to put Paragon Points that can raise a Wizard's overall Protection/EHP. So coming soon, there will be even less reason to use Armor Spells, Power Enchancing Spells, etc. However, don't think I don't understand where you're coming from.
Let's look at it another way...here's what I said previously...
That was an example of a way to go WITHOUT an Armor spell.
If a particular Wizard likes skills like Spectral Blades, Explosive Blast, Wave of Force...those skills require a Wizard to be up close and personal. So in that case...why not buff defensive stats with Paragon Points, throw on an Armor spell, maybe even a Shield if one is feeling tanky, and get right up in monsters' faces? In the expansion, I feel like such a build would be WAY more viable than it is now. Depending on how much it costs to respec, I'd love to experiment with a high Strength/Armor Wizard.
Currently, they're redesigning a lot of skills for all the classes, as well as providing a ton of new item affix passives, so I think seeing how gear effects skills and build diversity in Loot 2.0 is best.
After all, if we find cool Wizard builds (just for example), that both make use of Armor spells and builds that don't, will this be as significant an issue?
Maybe sacrifice could be blended into the dogs somehow? Like, the Summon Dogs skill passively creates 3 dogs and rebirths them a few seconds after they die. You can activate the skill to blow them all up, but on a cooldown.
The different runes could have effects for the dog type and explosion type.
I agree, I used to run Sacrifice all the time, but it just isn't worth it.
This same basic format could be used for the all the buff skills, though. Magic Weapon could be activated to perform a powerful melee attack with your equipped weapon, for instance. The armor spells could produce an aoe explosion around you with varying effects. I really hope they take the new form of Mystic Ally and run with it.