Alright, this is going in circles, I see.
Basically we are talking about the same principle, but we are talking about two way different things. I'm trying to describe the principles of a window, while you're describing the way a door functions.
So, let's leave out odd examples and strange metaphors for now, cause it's creating a lot of confusion between us...
That's acceptable to me. Better communication is always better. (Obviously. )
Well, this thread was mainly about a god, which is why I said what I said way back. There cannot whatsoever be a God that punishes everyone equally according to a single, strict measuring. It makes no sense and there simply cannot, which is why I brought up different cultures and religions, though for some reason you brought in western civilization. It's just too bad there is still a whole world out there full of people who don't care about western culture, so how can that god judge them all according to one standard, and I didn't want to focus on the minor details there. That was why I turned the conversation in that way, to show that.
I completely agree. Any god would have to be a subjective god, not an objective god, if he or she was going to judge people.
While there are general principles like don't kill, if somebody has a gun to your head and you kill them in defense, a god like Jehovah would be a cold hearted bastard to send you to hell for that.
Europe? I sure as hell am not from Europe. I said a third world country, and you eluded to Europe, China, and Russia. You know, I gotta say, that's odd. You know what I hate? African Americans who grew up in the Bronx who come to Africa and say it feels like they're coming home. I'm white, was born in Africa, just like my grandfather, and his grandfather, and so on. I'm more African than they ever would like to imagine to be, they don't even know what it's like to be African, and I assure you it's a whole lot different than growing up in an American city. I say to them, go back to the where you came from, my grandfather fought the English to save us from slavery. So no, I'm not from freaking Europe.
I was just making a point about how people think it's just an American way of thinking that Americans are the center of the world, when we Americans actually get that way of thinking from Europe. I wasn't talking about third world nations, nor was I talking about Africa.
I also do not excuse Americans for our way of thinking, it is wrong, but it is not a wholly American way of thinking.
You, of the international community, are making matters worse. Iran was and is in chaos, long before you, of the international community, got there, and it will remain as such. Do you want to know why, because they choose to be, and guess what, they sure as hell don't want your help. Are you going to beat that into them? Why not leave them be. Just by being there, you are aggravating them. They live out their ways in the only way they know how, as sickening as it may seem, but if you jump on your high horse and race in there, all you'll cause will be more bloodshed, yours and theirs.
And it's very shortsighted saying their religion is twisted. You know, the Spanish attacked the Azteca, to make them catholic. How is that different from what is happening in the Middle East. 'Look at those religious fanatics. What savages. Let's take our democracy and Christianity over there and beat it into them.' It's an over simplification, though that is exactly what is happening. And I'm sorry, but I don't want the US to rule the world, they nearly wiped out a civilization, just because those natives happened to be there first.
I don't want to "take our democracy and Christianity over there and beat it into them," I simply think that there should be something done to protect the innocents. It may be the way I was raised, but I don't think somebody should be harmed without very good cause.
Oh, LinkX. No, clearly you didn't understand what I wrote. I said nothing where if I'm not affected, then it is alright, as long as I'm fine, everything's fine. I didn't say that. Clearly you misunderstood me.
A nation abides by their own rules. If an Aztec believed his deity ordained his sacrifice and they all participate willingly, then that is their problem and their solution. If Middle Eastern fighters believe they need to fight one another for their holy war, then that is their way of doing what they do. However, they aren't attacking you, or anyone not part of it. They aren't exactly invading your country and imposing their will upon you, now are they? How would the Americans have felt if other countries jumped in to stop their Civil War.
Let me explain it this way. Some cultures have rules where they commit strange and odd rituals, but it's their way of life, not yours, you are already living your way of life. How would you feel if they force you to do so. Here's an example, people die during the running of the bulls (even animals gets harmed), but the people do it willingly, because it's a part of their culture. Will you try to stop that?
If, for example, for a blood sacrifice, the person being sacrificed, with complete understanding, willingly volunteered, that is a different matter, I agree. I just don't like the idea of non-willing participants being harmed. (I think that's the best way to put it.)
What? No, I'm not saying it's equal. I find it odd that you're turning it around on me, because your not understanding it's meaning. I'm saying it was punishable by death long ago, and was outlawed, even until recently. I'm trying to show you how we change with the times and the world... You know what, never mind, the next example was better...
I'm glad I misunderstood you. Comparing gays to rapists is somewhat of a deal breaker for me. :/
And while I believe I disagree with a lot of what you say, I do enjoy this conversation. Lol.
...But you call it theocracy... Really? In Spain the age is 13, in Italy it's 14, and they are both Catholic, but your calling them theocracies... Actually, there are many countries with many different ages of consent that are democracies and republics, first world countries with strong economies and perfectly well laid out western ideologies, they are not theocracies. I'm trying to show you how vastly cultures differ and how their religions are different as such, but instead you grab at straws.
Clearly I'm getting nowhere here.
I was still referencing the Middle East.
As for Europe, they are not theocracies, but the Church has a good bit of control.Anybody saying the age of consent is 13 is not using secular, scientific data.
And also, why are you then promoting western ideals as if it can save the whole world, because honestly, it still has a lot of maturing to do before it can help anyone.
It's not the best at all, but I would say it's better then running over a child's arm on purpose as punishment for stealing a piece of food.
Evolution is a well-established theory that is verified by evidence, observation, and has held up to scientific scrutiny. I say it like it's a fact, because it's as close to a fact as i'm likely to find on the topic of the development of humanity out of the cosmological epoch we refer to as the "big bang."
when i try to explain evolution to religious nuts people, they always seem to have the same couple of complaints:
1) it happened over night. no, it happened over millions of years. fish didnt grow legs over night and decided land was fairly comfortable.
2) that things evolve (marcoevolve) in a chain (markov chain). no, things had a common ancestor that branched out. some branches get pruned by what we call life, others go on a branch off more - speciation.
3) more of a pet peeve, but w/e: darwin called it evolution. he actually wanted to call it descent with modification.
4) theres not enough scientific proof, or that you cant trust science. well because we need to trust the big voice in the sky telling us to worship him when He is supposed to be 'omnipotent'
theres more, but im bored already.
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Remember the String of Ears
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
The odds of there being a god are the same odds that I'll wake up tomorrow with unicorns in my bed holding a winning power ball ticket.
It's an ignorant belief really (to believe in any god). You get idiots claiming everything is gods will, then praying to god after god put their child in the hospital.
There's records of the catholic church editing and taking out books that contradicted other parts, essentially creating a circular argument on purpose to maintain believers. The book of mormon is the same way (I'm a former mormon priest), the koran is the worst with assloads of violence against non-muslims and child marriage.
God LIKELY doesn't exist, but that's not something you can explain in a simple catch phrase, it's a few novels worth of new knowledge and rules of logic for most people. Most people just want a simple answer to things, anything that makes them think is just TOO much effort.
there is our planet - solar system - universe etc / people say it all started with a big bang - everything just happened
& now think a little if all started with a big bang .. what was before that? just nothing ? plain emptiness?
We don't have much information about the early-universe, much less pre-big-bang universe. There are really no grounds on which to say it is a "beginning," proper. For all we know it could have been the end of a cycle, the beginning of another phase of developement, or something else we haven't speculated. The physics thus far tell us at some point the universe was a sphere consisting of the sum-total matter and energy cointained in our universe and that sphere was around the size of a grape or something else rediculously small and spherical-ish. Research about what caused that sphere to form at all, why it expanded out irregularly, and a host of other questions are being answered by physics and quantum physics. Hopefully we will know more in time and I expect we will.
there must be a thing (call it god if ya like) that created everything
I don't think you, or anyone else, knows enough about the origin of our universe to say it MUST have an external creator. For all anyone presently knows the universe was always there in some form or another, or perhaps it really did simply quantum-fluctuate into existence. Mind you, an omniscient being waving hands and magicing the universe into being without our knowledge is also possible, it's just a much more complex and counter-intuitive/irrational explanation for it all.
simple thing - time - god must have "started" at some point - not rly no .. he has been there forever ..
Nope, actually time doesn't need a start and stop point at all. If space-time is spherical, as is suspected, you wouldn't have any starting point or ending. And if you suggest to us that God creats the universe and time itself, one must wonder then what created this infinitely powerful god? Oh right, that's an infinite regress. Well, far-fetched an explanation as it may be, I can't rule it out, but I have to say it sounds silly based on what we know.
this question comes from human logic .. if something is it must have had a beginning god dont see time .. time is what people invented .. god just is .. he has no days/ years he is & he sees everything as if it was at this moment .. day when you were born - "god's present moment" / day you die - god's present moment"
You're inventing a lot of charactaristics for this god we can't even assume to exist. I decline to speculate.
you dont rly have to believe in christian's god but just believe that there is something .. a divine beeing that created everything with no special purpose & wer just a part of that creation
A divine being is uncessary for the universe to exist and have evolved into what we know today. Science has proven that to us. If you want to believe the ultimate source of all things is something extra-normal and outside our possible knowledge, neat. Just don't confuse that with Christian's or any other religion's gods. Deism I can see being legitimate, theism on the other hand, is certainly not.
i know its not rly a best way to express it but id have to sit on this post a lil longer if i wanted to use proper words (eng not my main language so ill pass ;>)
Well if you want some reading practice in english I encourage you to read this thread.
i think ill pass .. had problem with life & crap that comes with it for past few years & got it pass me recently so dont wanna bump on some facts that might make me doubt myself again ;p
I feel somewhat dissapointed, but relieved that I don't have to repeat myself at the same time.
dont get me wrong - logic is v important for me on daily basis but im willing to forget it to explain to myself the reson for life .. & i know its more philosophy then science but id rather believe in a divine being that created everything then to believe im just a flesh that has an expiry date
I'd rather believe that I (that people in general) have a grandios purpose too. But, as far as I can tell there is only that fleshy world and our fleshy existence and both have an expiration date. Of course there might or might not be so much more to it than that, but i'm more comfortable admitting what I don't know, rather than trying to believe that I know something I cannot know.
but ill keep track on some posts in here cos it looks like i might expand my dictionary a lil ... ill just get rly drunk before reading it so i dont remember the point you gonna make in them ;p
Believing in something and believing to know something are two different things.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I think Believing in the sense we are referring to is more associated with faith and an emotional feeling.
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"I want to say something but I'll keep it to myself I guess and leave this useless post behind to make you aware that there WAS something... "
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
I can't see where you got that from his post. Any extension of belief into an asessment of what "must," be is well beyond one of those emotional beliefs. It is a statement of knowledge.
When you want something really bad and you close your eyes & you wish for it - God's the guy that ignores you
i get ignored a lot so he must be there ;] - logic
Or maybe god doesn't have all the special powers attributed to him by people in their books?
Or maybe there is nothing out there we would find suitable for the term "god," we made up?
Or maybe it is out there and hears you, but simply hates you and the rest of mankind?
Lots of possibilities there and i'm sure we could make up things to fill that gap all day. As I said before, I'd rather not assume something that grandios and unfounded, espcially if it's going to impact my daily life.
Please read this. It will give you all something to think about!
Hydrology became understood in the 17th century; however, throughout the Old Testament, it is fully explained by divine inspiration. Keep in mind, the Old Testament is thousands of years old. Also JOB is the oldest book in the bible. READ ON!
Isaiah 55:10. "As the rain and the snow come down from heaven and they don't return without watering the earth and making it bear and sprout and furnish seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall My Word be which goes forth from My mouth: It shall not return to Me void, without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it."
Ecclesiastes 1:6, "The wind goes toward the south, turns about unto the north; it whirls continually, and the wind returns again according to its circuits; and all the rivers run into the sea, yet the sea is not full."
Job 36:27-28, "For He draws up the drops of water; they distill rain from the mist, which the clouds pour down, and the drip upon man abundantly." <---EVAPORATION
On to Astronomy, Geology, and Meteorology. Earth was thought to be flat; people thought you could sail off the edge of the planet. The moon was thought to be a great luminous body.
Job 25:5, "Look to the moon. It shineth not." <--- NO LUMINATION FROM THE MOON
Jeremiah 31:35-36, "Thus says the Lord, who gives the sun or light by day, and the fixed order of the moon and stars for light by night. If this fixed order departs from Me, then the offspring of Israel shall cease from being a nation before Me."
Isaiah 40:22, "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth" <---ROUND EARTH
Job 26:7, "He hangeth the earth on nothing." <--- GRAVITY, IT DOESNT SIT ON THE BACK OF A GREEK GOD
Ecclesiastes 1:6, "The wind goes toward the south, turns about to the north, whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to its circuits."
Job 28:25, "He imparted weight to the air." <--- AIR HAS WEIGHT
There are many more, but those are the ones that come to mind first. Pretty cool huh?
A drop of slime appears out of nowhere after the BIG BANG (Where did space come from? How did matter form? From nothing?) Over millions and billions of years, this drop of slime evolves into some sort of creature, lets just say a lizard. Millions and billions of years later, this lizard forms into an ape, BUT it forms into an ape with a PE-NIS, WHILE somehow another lizard forms into an ape with a VA-GINA, and they both form TWO different genders (why not 3? 4? 5?) which coincidentally can reproduce with one another. These females form boobs which produce milk to feed and nurture their infants. Over millions of years, these two apes create a civilization and eventually evolve into people. We come from apes.
The THEORY of EVOLUTION makes a lot of sense to me.
Oh and just a final thought from the founder of evolution, Charles Darwin, in his book Origin of Species:
"I am conscious that I am in an utterly hopeless muddle. I cannot think that the world, as we see it, is the result of chance" -Darwin
"Often a cold shudder has run through me, and I have asked myself whether I may have not devoted myself to a fantasy."
(Charles Darwin, Life and Letters, 1887, Vol. 2, p. 229)
Hydrology became understood in the 17th century; however, throughout the Old Testament, it is fully explained by divine inspiration.
No, it is not fully explained. The knowledge is rudimentary (at best) as it has been for thousands of years before the old testament and which resulted from the simple process of observation.
Isaiah 55:10. "As the rain and the snow come down from heaven and they don't return without watering the earth and making it bear and sprout and furnish seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall My Word be which goes forth from My mouth: It shall not return to Me void, without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it."
It says here that water and snow comes from the sky(or heaven). I've never had water FALL UP on me from the ground and pretty sure that our ancestors (before any testament) with the prolonged amount of time spent outside, might have observed this delightful phenomenon just fine.
Ecclesiastes 1:6, "The wind goes toward the south, turns about unto the north; it whirls continually, and the wind returns again according to its circuits; and all the rivers run into the sea, yet the sea is not full."
People who observe the weather(and the waterways).
I suppose the lack of video games instead of divine inspiration would be a much more sensible explanation.
Job 36:27-28, "For He draws up the drops of water; they distill rain from the mist, which the clouds pour down, and the drip upon man abundantly." <---EVAPORATION
Evaporation- process whereby water in its liquid form acquires enough energy to go into its gas state.
'He' could not have been drawing up 'drops' of water unless through a huge invisible straw. You do not distill rain from mist and then have the clouds pour it down on your face. The clouds contain the water and there needs to be a special condition for the blissful water to come from the sky. So which part of the water cycle again is explained here?
You mean a person realizes it rains on a cloudy day and associates water with clouds? Or observes dew? Or how when cooking stuff in water the thing evaporates? Pretty sure there were pots and pans before the old testament...
Ya you can do all of that without divine inspiration but maybe that's just me.
Job 25:5, "Look to the moon. It shineth not." <--- NO LUMINATION FROM THE MOON
I'm beginning to think that you honestly need to spend more time outside. Once you get through a few lunar phases and watch the moon, you can easily see it SHINES. A bright surface shines after you polish it. Ya you guessed it- shining can be either giving off or reflecting light. So the moon definitely shines.
I don't know the whole chapter you quoted. Maybe it goes on to detail how the moon is only reflecting the light of the sun, that we actually only see one side of it, that it spins around us and all the cool stuff.
Jeremiah 31:35-36, "Thus says the Lord, who gives the sun or light by day, and the fixed order of the moon and stars for light by night. If this fixed order departs from Me, then the offspring of Israel shall cease from being a nation before Me."
You get light from sun during the day and light from moon and stars at night...Hmm...I imagine that must have been difficult to figure out by mere observation. I concede this one. A very poignant contribution from the old testament. Not sure about the Israel part though.
Isaiah 40:22, "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth" <---ROUND EARTH
The Earth is not a circle.
A kid got slapped at school by the teacher when he started calling a ball a circle. I cunningly decided not to make the same mistake. But I understand other parts of the world is not as harsh as here.
Job 26:7, "He hangeth the earth on nothing." <--- GRAVITY, IT DOESNT SIT ON THE BACK OF A GREEK GOD
So...there is nothing below the Earth? Pheeww...good thing that the string on which he hangs us is a strong one. Can you imagine if we fall...
Damn.
But maybe then we'll fall on the Greek's god back and be saved anyway. Oh yeah!
Ecclesiastes 1:6, "The wind goes toward the south, turns about to the north, whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to its circuits."
Job 28:25, "He imparted weight to the air." <--- AIR HAS WEIGHT
The air has weight? Like if I slap the air, you'll get hit by it?
Or did you mean force? I think that may have been what you meant.
Anyway, fun time over. You can certainly make out a lot of things from any religious books in the world- not just the bible. This is due to the language retaining a very cryptic sense and never being quite decisive or clear- something definitely to its advantage. The proof is how you can get devout religious people who can either be helping others around them or murdering or abusing others based on the same sacred texts.
You can plead a cause of majority here and say- 'look at how most of us behave' and that this must surely be the 'right' way. But that 'right way' is hardly through the religious texts. Instead it is a result of laws upon which modern civilization has been built combined with our natural predisposition as social animals , making it largely inconvenient (financially and socially) to act like the minority is doing.
And it's all natural to try and find credence in ancient literature if it's your religion(since childhood) but at this point in time where we as a race need to stand as one, it is but pure delusion and stubbornness in thinking or trying to prove your religion/god is the right one.
In my time, I have heard many decent arguments for these few verses, BUT your responses reflect the amount of education that you actually have. Before responding to a scientific post, you should try a simple Google search to verify your answers.
The moon does not, and has never had light. This is a known fact which was discovered years ago. Some simple research will verify my claim.
Hydrology was explained more in detail in the Old Testament than its ever been historically. It wasn't until the 17th century that scientists BEGAN to understand evaporation and precipitation. This, my friend, is also a scientifically proven fact and you may consult with Google or a scientist to verify my claim. The Bible introduced this concept thousands of years before it was ever a thought in one's imagination.
The earth is a sphere, not a circle; however, when the bible was translated into English, the world circle was put in instead of sphere. In that verse, the Hebrew word used was חוג—chuwg. In Hebrew, this word means SPHERE; therefore, thousands of years ago, the world was said to be a sphere.
The earth does hang on nothing. You make a disgraceful attempt to mock me here, because you can't respond with a proper rebuttal. Typical Atheist. It was not until the RECENT PAST that scientists believed the earth stood suspended in space; they had no concept of gravity.
Air DOES HAVE WEIGHT, smart one. Air has atoms; therefore, air has mass; therefore, air has WEIGHT. It is also measurable! Lol, this concept might be hard for you to understand, but a simple education might help you. By the way, you can go to a community college for free nowadays (mostly). Also, the government offers grants to attend college. Just FYI :).
I must say - this was a horrible attempt at impeaching me. Your rebuttals are horrendous; your intellect is pathetic; you are just plain confused about science. I would recommend you take a couple of science courses in school, so that you may learn basic fundamentals of the scientific world!
Have a good day, and I'll be PWNing you on Diablo 3 soon!
Between atheists that just reject eveything, fanatic book followers and people trolling around these thread always deliver.
Nobody can prove God exist neither can someone prove it doesn't exist.
Though, I'm agnostic rather than atheist. I believe there might be something (Xel Naga, God, Greek God whatever), I just don't believe in books written 2K years ago. Even if some of their fact are right, it is still material facts and by no mean a proof god was dictating the hand of the writers (note the S). Don't forget Atheism is for some a form of religion which some people have become fanatics of, kinda ironic I think.
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That's acceptable to me. Better communication is always better. (Obviously.
I completely agree. Any god would have to be a subjective god, not an objective god, if he or she was going to judge people.
While there are general principles like don't kill, if somebody has a gun to your head and you kill them in defense, a god like Jehovah would be a cold hearted bastard to send you to hell for that.
I was just making a point about how people think it's just an American way of thinking that Americans are the center of the world, when we Americans actually get that way of thinking from Europe. I wasn't talking about third world nations, nor was I talking about Africa.
I also do not excuse Americans for our way of thinking, it is wrong, but it is not a wholly American way of thinking.
I don't want to "take our democracy and Christianity over there and beat it into them," I simply think that there should be something done to protect the innocents. It may be the way I was raised, but I don't think somebody should be harmed without very good cause.
My apologies for misunderstanding.
If, for example, for a blood sacrifice, the person being sacrificed, with complete understanding, willingly volunteered, that is a different matter, I agree. I just don't like the idea of non-willing participants being harmed. (I think that's the best way to put it.)
I'm glad I misunderstood you. Comparing gays to rapists is somewhat of a deal breaker for me. :/
And while I believe I disagree with a lot of what you say, I do enjoy this conversation. Lol.
I was still referencing the Middle East.
As for Europe, they are not theocracies, but the Church has a good bit of control.Anybody saying the age of consent is 13 is not using secular, scientific data.
It's not the best at all, but I would say it's better then running over a child's arm on purpose as punishment for stealing a piece of food.
I'm curious what "hood" was in the post now. Lol.
QFT
nutspeople, they always seem to have the same couple of complaints:1) it happened over night. no, it happened over millions of years. fish didnt grow legs over night and decided land was fairly comfortable.
2) that things evolve (marcoevolve) in a chain (markov chain). no, things had a common ancestor that branched out. some branches get pruned by what we call life, others go on a branch off more - speciation.
3) more of a pet peeve, but w/e: darwin called it evolution. he actually wanted to call it descent with modification.
4) theres not enough scientific proof, or that you cant trust science. well because we need to trust the big voice in the sky telling us to worship him when He is supposed to be 'omnipotent'
theres more, but im bored already.
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
Glad you came back to join us.
"to the worm in horseradish, the world is horseradish."
It's an ignorant belief really (to believe in any god). You get idiots claiming everything is gods will, then praying to god after god put their child in the hospital.
There's records of the catholic church editing and taking out books that contradicted other parts, essentially creating a circular argument on purpose to maintain believers. The book of mormon is the same way (I'm a former mormon priest), the koran is the worst with assloads of violence against non-muslims and child marriage.
God LIKELY doesn't exist, but that's not something you can explain in a simple catch phrase, it's a few novels worth of new knowledge and rules of logic for most people. Most people just want a simple answer to things, anything that makes them think is just TOO much effort.
Welcome to the thread. I invite you to read some of it before posting. Barring that, let's see what you've got thus far:
I like logic!
We don't have much information about the early-universe, much less pre-big-bang universe. There are really no grounds on which to say it is a "beginning," proper. For all we know it could have been the end of a cycle, the beginning of another phase of developement, or something else we haven't speculated. The physics thus far tell us at some point the universe was a sphere consisting of the sum-total matter and energy cointained in our universe and that sphere was around the size of a grape or something else rediculously small and spherical-ish. Research about what caused that sphere to form at all, why it expanded out irregularly, and a host of other questions are being answered by physics and quantum physics. Hopefully we will know more in time and I expect we will.
I don't think you, or anyone else, knows enough about the origin of our universe to say it MUST have an external creator. For all anyone presently knows the universe was always there in some form or another, or perhaps it really did simply quantum-fluctuate into existence. Mind you, an omniscient being waving hands and magicing the universe into being without our knowledge is also possible, it's just a much more complex and counter-intuitive/irrational explanation for it all.
Nope, actually time doesn't need a start and stop point at all. If space-time is spherical, as is suspected, you wouldn't have any starting point or ending. And if you suggest to us that God creats the universe and time itself, one must wonder then what created this infinitely powerful god? Oh right, that's an infinite regress. Well, far-fetched an explanation as it may be, I can't rule it out, but I have to say it sounds silly based on what we know.
You're inventing a lot of charactaristics for this god we can't even assume to exist. I decline to speculate.
A divine being is uncessary for the universe to exist and have evolved into what we know today. Science has proven that to us. If you want to believe the ultimate source of all things is something extra-normal and outside our possible knowledge, neat. Just don't confuse that with Christian's or any other religion's gods. Deism I can see being legitimate, theism on the other hand, is certainly not.
Well if you want some reading practice in english I encourage you to read this thread.
heh
Then you should study physics and quantum theory. =)
I feel somewhat dissapointed, but relieved that I don't have to repeat myself at the same time.
I'd rather believe that I (that people in general) have a grandios purpose too. But, as far as I can tell there is only that fleshy world and our fleshy existence and both have an expiration date. Of course there might or might not be so much more to it than that, but i'm more comfortable admitting what I don't know, rather than trying to believe that I know something I cannot know.
You sound like my catholic brothers. >D
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Well, it's hard to say one doesn't believe to KNOW something when they dictate their daily lives and judge the lives of others by it.
-Equinox
"We're like the downtown of the Diablo related internet lol"
-Winged
Or maybe god doesn't have all the special powers attributed to him by people in their books?
Or maybe there is nothing out there we would find suitable for the term "god," we made up?
Or maybe it is out there and hears you, but simply hates you and the rest of mankind?
Lots of possibilities there and i'm sure we could make up things to fill that gap all day. As I said before, I'd rather not assume something that grandios and unfounded, espcially if it's going to impact my daily life.
Hydrology became understood in the 17th century; however, throughout the Old Testament, it is fully explained by divine inspiration. Keep in mind, the Old Testament is thousands of years old. Also JOB is the oldest book in the bible. READ ON!
Isaiah 55:10. "As the rain and the snow come down from heaven and they don't return without watering the earth and making it bear and sprout and furnish seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall My Word be which goes forth from My mouth: It shall not return to Me void, without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it."
Ecclesiastes 1:6, "The wind goes toward the south, turns about unto the north; it whirls continually, and the wind returns again according to its circuits; and all the rivers run into the sea, yet the sea is not full."
Job 36:27-28, "For He draws up the drops of water; they distill rain from the mist, which the clouds pour down, and the drip upon man abundantly." <---EVAPORATION
On to Astronomy, Geology, and Meteorology. Earth was thought to be flat; people thought you could sail off the edge of the planet. The moon was thought to be a great luminous body.
Job 25:5, "Look to the moon. It shineth not." <--- NO LUMINATION FROM THE MOON
Jeremiah 31:35-36, "Thus says the Lord, who gives the sun or light by day, and the fixed order of the moon and stars for light by night. If this fixed order departs from Me, then the offspring of Israel shall cease from being a nation before Me."
Isaiah 40:22, "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth" <---ROUND EARTH
Job 26:7, "He hangeth the earth on nothing." <--- GRAVITY, IT DOESNT SIT ON THE BACK OF A GREEK GOD
Ecclesiastes 1:6, "The wind goes toward the south, turns about to the north, whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to its circuits."
Job 28:25, "He imparted weight to the air." <--- AIR HAS WEIGHT
There are many more, but those are the ones that come to mind first. Pretty cool huh?
A drop of slime appears out of nowhere after the BIG BANG (Where did space come from? How did matter form? From nothing?) Over millions and billions of years, this drop of slime evolves into some sort of creature, lets just say a lizard. Millions and billions of years later, this lizard forms into an ape, BUT it forms into an ape with a PE-NIS, WHILE somehow another lizard forms into an ape with a VA-GINA, and they both form TWO different genders (why not 3? 4? 5?) which coincidentally can reproduce with one another. These females form boobs which produce milk to feed and nurture their infants. Over millions of years, these two apes create a civilization and eventually evolve into people. We come from apes.
The THEORY of EVOLUTION makes a lot of sense to me.
Oh and just a final thought from the founder of evolution, Charles Darwin, in his book Origin of Species:
"I am conscious that I am in an utterly hopeless muddle. I cannot think that the world, as we see it, is the result of chance" -Darwin
"Often a cold shudder has run through me, and I have asked myself whether I may have not devoted myself to a fantasy."
(Charles Darwin, Life and Letters, 1887, Vol. 2, p. 229)
It says here that water and snow comes from the sky(or heaven). I've never had water FALL UP on me from the ground and pretty sure that our ancestors (before any testament) with the prolonged amount of time spent outside, might have observed this delightful phenomenon just fine.
People who observe the weather(and the waterways).
I suppose the lack of video games instead of divine inspiration would be a much more sensible explanation.
Evaporation- process whereby water in its liquid form acquires enough energy to go into its gas state.
'He' could not have been drawing up 'drops' of water unless through a huge invisible straw. You do not distill rain from mist and then have the clouds pour it down on your face. The clouds contain the water and there needs to be a special condition for the blissful water to come from the sky. So which part of the water cycle again is explained here?
You mean a person realizes it rains on a cloudy day and associates water with clouds? Or observes dew? Or how when cooking stuff in water the thing evaporates? Pretty sure there were pots and pans before the old testament...
Ya you can do all of that without divine inspiration but maybe that's just me.
I'm beginning to think that you honestly need to spend more time outside. Once you get through a few lunar phases and watch the moon, you can easily see it SHINES. A bright surface shines after you polish it. Ya you guessed it- shining can be either giving off or reflecting light. So the moon definitely shines.
I don't know the whole chapter you quoted. Maybe it goes on to detail how the moon is only reflecting the light of the sun, that we actually only see one side of it, that it spins around us and all the cool stuff.
You get light from sun during the day and light from moon and stars at night...Hmm...I imagine that must have been difficult to figure out by mere observation. I concede this one. A very poignant contribution from the old testament. Not sure about the Israel part though.
The Earth is not a circle.
A kid got slapped at school by the teacher when he started calling a ball a circle. I cunningly decided not to make the same mistake. But I understand other parts of the world is not as harsh as here.
So...there is nothing below the Earth? Pheeww...good thing that the string on which he hangs us is a strong one. Can you imagine if we fall...
Damn.
But maybe then we'll fall on the Greek's god back and be saved anyway. Oh yeah!
The air has weight? Like if I slap the air, you'll get hit by it?
Or did you mean force? I think that may have been what you meant.
Anyway, fun time over. You can certainly make out a lot of things from any religious books in the world- not just the bible. This is due to the language retaining a very cryptic sense and never being quite decisive or clear- something definitely to its advantage. The proof is how you can get devout religious people who can either be helping others around them or murdering or abusing others based on the same sacred texts.
You can plead a cause of majority here and say- 'look at how most of us behave' and that this must surely be the 'right' way. But that 'right way' is hardly through the religious texts. Instead it is a result of laws upon which modern civilization has been built combined with our natural predisposition as social animals , making it largely inconvenient (financially and socially) to act like the minority is doing.
And it's all natural to try and find credence in ancient literature if it's your religion(since childhood) but at this point in time where we as a race need to stand as one, it is but pure delusion and stubbornness in thinking or trying to prove your religion/god is the right one.
In my time, I have heard many decent arguments for these few verses, BUT your responses reflect the amount of education that you actually have. Before responding to a scientific post, you should try a simple Google search to verify your answers.
The moon does not, and has never had light. This is a known fact which was discovered years ago. Some simple research will verify my claim.
Hydrology was explained more in detail in the Old Testament than its ever been historically. It wasn't until the 17th century that scientists BEGAN to understand evaporation and precipitation. This, my friend, is also a scientifically proven fact and you may consult with Google or a scientist to verify my claim. The Bible introduced this concept thousands of years before it was ever a thought in one's imagination.
The earth is a sphere, not a circle; however, when the bible was translated into English, the world circle was put in instead of sphere. In that verse, the Hebrew word used was חוג—chuwg. In Hebrew, this word means SPHERE; therefore, thousands of years ago, the world was said to be a sphere.
The earth does hang on nothing. You make a disgraceful attempt to mock me here, because you can't respond with a proper rebuttal. Typical Atheist. It was not until the RECENT PAST that scientists believed the earth stood suspended in space; they had no concept of gravity.
Air DOES HAVE WEIGHT, smart one. Air has atoms; therefore, air has mass; therefore, air has WEIGHT. It is also measurable! Lol, this concept might be hard for you to understand, but a simple education might help you. By the way, you can go to a community college for free nowadays (mostly). Also, the government offers grants to attend college. Just FYI :).
I must say - this was a horrible attempt at impeaching me. Your rebuttals are horrendous; your intellect is pathetic; you are just plain confused about science. I would recommend you take a couple of science courses in school, so that you may learn basic fundamentals of the scientific world!
Have a good day, and I'll be PWNing you on Diablo 3 soon!
Nobody can prove God exist neither can someone prove it doesn't exist.
Though, I'm agnostic rather than atheist. I believe there might be something (Xel Naga, God, Greek God whatever), I just don't believe in books written 2K years ago. Even if some of their fact are right, it is still material facts and by no mean a proof god was dictating the hand of the writers (note the S). Don't forget Atheism is for some a form of religion which some people have become fanatics of, kinda ironic I think.