So you have at least 4 types of damage spells in D3.
1) Direct Damage
2) Channeled
3) Dots
4) Pets
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The way it appears to work at this point is like this...
[For Weapon A (20 damage/3.0 attack speed) and Weapon B (60 damage/1.0 attack speed)]
1) For Direct Damage spells, let's say a skill that does 150% damage and costs 100 mana. For A your damage will be 90/sec. For B your damage will be 90/sec. So it's the same damage. However, for A your mana cost will be 300 mana/sec. For B it'll be 100 mana/sec. So it's 3x the mana cost for the same damage.
For Direct Damage spells with a cooldown, attack speed isn't taken into account really. So the mana cost remains the same, but your damage is reduced using a Weapon A. So for direct damage spells with a cooldown, Weapon B will yield more damage.
2) For Channeled spells, it'll work much the same way. You'll do the same amount of damage in a given interval, but the mana cost will be your attack speed x the mana cost of the spell. So under the same circumstances, you'll have 3x the mana cost for the same damage.
3) Dots are different, because they have fixed mana costs. So no matter what your attack speed is, the mana cost will always be the same. However, with Weapon A you'll be able to spread Dots 3x faster than with B. This increase should basically equalize dots no matter what your attack speed is. But it discourages you from using Dots as your primary form of damage.
Another point is that Dots with cooldowns will work differently than dots w/o cooldowns. Dots with cooldowns should work based on your DPS because having a faster weapon doesn't mean you can cast them more often. So keep this in mind for skills like GotD, etc.
4) As for pet damage, I'm really not sure how it works. I think it makes the most sense if they work off your DPS though. So no matter what your attack speed is, the damage should be the same. Like with Weapon A and B, your pet damage should be the same. It doesn't seem to make sense otherwise because it's not something you should be constantly spending mana on.
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So it would seem that slower weapons are guaranteed to be better after reading all this because there's a mana penalty for using a faster weapon with single target and channeled spells. And even though you can get Dots out faster with a faster weapon, if you're only fighting like 3 monsters, you may prefer the higher damage. Meaning that IAS for Dots will feel better against large groups.
The equalizer in all this... is that apparently only class specific items have resources on them. So if you're a WD who uses a 2H for a slow attack speed with higher damage, you're going to lose out on the + Mana that is attached to the MH + OH. So basically (for single target/channeled spells) if you have a Ceremonial Knife + Wanga Doll and your damage is like Weapon A, you should have enough + Mana on both those items to compensate for the increased mana cost. And Weapon B will do the same damage, cost less mana, but you won't have any + Resources on your weapons.
Now if you're comparing a slow ceremonial knife to a faster one, perhaps the game has been constructed so that the faster knives are more likely to have + mana on them. But that's going to have to be a choice you make based on the individual items.
As for Dots... you have to decide how easy it is to spread them. If you're talking about something like Haunt, a faster attack speed may be superior because you'll get those dots out much much faster with Weapon A than with B. And if you're using something like Consuming Spirit (health regen rune) for Haunt, getting the Haunts out asap will be much better for your regen. Also, a faster attack speed will allow you to cast a single target spell more.
Yeah, since the WZ and WD don't generate resources like the other 3 classes, the resource cost of fast weapons is more of an issue. Particularly for the WD.
I think the problem with slow weapons endgame is that there's a lot of moving you have to do. And if you have a fast weapon it's much easier to cast something quickly and keep moving. But with a slow weapon it's harder. So faster weapons may be preferable if you're running around a lot.
It's probably true that for Dots (non cooldown) a slower weapon is better. But it's really the most true for Dots that have high resource costs are are AoE. Things like Haunt I think benefit just as much from having a fast attack speed because you have to spread them to multiple targets individually.
But for something like Blizzard... you're much better off with a slow weapon. Assuming that Blizzard works the same way as other non-cooldown Dots. The resource cost on Blizzard is so high, you would almost rather it have a cooldown honestly and cover a larger area.
Think you mixed it up a bit there. Dots have a fixed duration, and dmg / tick is based on the weapon dmg not weapon dps, however I'm not sure if the dots tick faster with fast weapons (any beta testers wanna test this out), as the blue post only refereed to channeled spells.
Not sure what you mean by mixed it up... that's exactly what I was trying to say. Dots do not tick faster with faster weapons. Dots with cooldowns will do the same damage with a slow weapon as a faster one if the DPS is the same. The "default" tick rate for dots is 2 APS.
I just tested it, haunt ticks twice per second no matter what the weapon speed is. I tried with 0.84 attacks per second and 1.46 attacks per second weapons.
EDIT: I think I'm going to find suitable weapons to actually confirm the scaling as well. And maybe while I'm on it I might check the total duration as well ;).
If you test those same weapons with GotD you'll do damage proportional to the differences in DPS between the two weapons.
And again since the 1H and OH are 2 of only 3 items that will have mana on them, you should really lose a lot of mana with a 2H. Also, I don't really think dots are meant to be used as your main attack for the most part. Which is why it might make sense to get your dots out as soon as possible and then use a single target type of spell.
A good and convincing post, but you are leaving out a major factor that makes faster attacks far superior to slower attacks. This effect is currently proven in the beta. I won't tell you what it is outright to leave a sense of mystery to it
Think you mixed it up a bit there. Dots have a fixed duration, and dmg / tick is based on the weapon dmg not weapon dps, however I'm not sure if the dots tick faster with fast weapons (any beta testers wanna test this out), as the blue post only refereed to channeled spells.
I just tested it, haunt ticks twice per second no matter what the weapon speed is. I tried with 0.84 attacks per second and 1.46 attacks per second weapons.
For weapons scaling test I used 4.9 DPS (3-4) weapon and 3.6 DPS (4-5) weapon. The latter was ticking for 2 damage with haunt and the first for 1. Obviously these numbers are rounded but with this damage range the lower dps slower speed weapon was doing more damage per tick (and per time). DOT duration was the same with both weapons.
EDIT: I think I'm going to find suitable weapons to actually confirm the scaling as well. And maybe while I'm on it I might check the total duration as well ;).
EDIT2: Scaling results added.
Numbers are not rounded. They are floats/doubles.... HP is as well. If you do 0.00047 damage to the enemy ... the enemy life goes down by 0.00047.
You just do not see partial numbers... and so they appear to be rounded.
This is blatantly apparent when you use the WD blowdart with the starting weapon and the 40% poison applies.
I also found a white staff that does 15-21 damage (+33%) that has a dps of 17.9. There was a white staff on the auction house that does 15-21(+31%) that had a dps of 17.8.
This is what I meant that you mixed it up. They will NOT do the same damage if they have the same dps, the slower weapon will do more ^^
At least that's what I assume...
And looking at Oougho's testing it appears that I'm correct... although those are some awfully close to each other's damage ranges weapons ^^
I'm saying Dots with cooldowns. Haunt does not have a cooldown. Grasp of the Dead has a cooldown, which means you can't cast it any faster with a faster attack speed. And so the damage should scale with attack speed. That's why I said if someone tests GotD they should see that their damage changes based on damage AND attack speed. Again, dots with cooldowns should work differently than dots without cooldowns. I don't have Beta so I can't test this directly.
Yeah, there's nothing significant beyond that really. The biggest advantage of faster weapons is the mobility which you can see from Fields of Misery, is pretty important. That's probably why Blizzard was worried about slow weapons being weaker endgame. Like you can see monsters that move around a lot would be way harder to hit with a slow weapon.
However, it'll be interesting to see how monster hit recovery works and if that's affected by weapon speed at all. At the very least, if you're hitting multiple monsters it would be useful. Also, I wonder how long the cold snare actually lasts. Someone should use frenzy with a fast cold weapon. I don't really know if it slows attack speed or just movement speed.
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Edited version below.
1) Direct Damage
2) Channeled
3) Dots
4) Pets
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The way it appears to work at this point is like this...
[For Weapon A (20 damage/3.0 attack speed) and Weapon B (60 damage/1.0 attack speed)]
1) For Direct Damage spells, let's say a skill that does 150% damage and costs 100 mana. For A your damage will be 90/sec. For B your damage will be 90/sec. So it's the same damage. However, for A your mana cost will be 300 mana/sec. For B it'll be 100 mana/sec. So it's 3x the mana cost for the same damage.
For Direct Damage spells with a cooldown, attack speed isn't taken into account really. So the mana cost remains the same, but your damage is reduced using a Weapon A. So for direct damage spells with a cooldown, Weapon B will yield more damage.
2) For Channeled spells, it'll work much the same way. You'll do the same amount of damage in a given interval, but the mana cost will be your attack speed x the mana cost of the spell. So under the same circumstances, you'll have 3x the mana cost for the same damage.
3) Dots are different, because they have fixed mana costs. So no matter what your attack speed is, the mana cost will always be the same. However, with Weapon A you'll be able to spread Dots 3x faster than with B. This increase should basically equalize dots no matter what your attack speed is. But it discourages you from using Dots as your primary form of damage.
Another point is that Dots with cooldowns will work differently than dots w/o cooldowns. Dots with cooldowns should work based on your DPS because having a faster weapon doesn't mean you can cast them more often. So keep this in mind for skills like GotD, etc.
4) As for pet damage, I'm really not sure how it works. I think it makes the most sense if they work off your DPS though. So no matter what your attack speed is, the damage should be the same. Like with Weapon A and B, your pet damage should be the same. It doesn't seem to make sense otherwise because it's not something you should be constantly spending mana on.
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So it would seem that slower weapons are guaranteed to be better after reading all this because there's a mana penalty for using a faster weapon with single target and channeled spells. And even though you can get Dots out faster with a faster weapon, if you're only fighting like 3 monsters, you may prefer the higher damage. Meaning that IAS for Dots will feel better against large groups.
The equalizer in all this... is that apparently only class specific items have resources on them. So if you're a WD who uses a 2H for a slow attack speed with higher damage, you're going to lose out on the + Mana that is attached to the MH + OH. So basically (for single target/channeled spells) if you have a Ceremonial Knife + Wanga Doll and your damage is like Weapon A, you should have enough + Mana on both those items to compensate for the increased mana cost. And Weapon B will do the same damage, cost less mana, but you won't have any + Resources on your weapons.
Now if you're comparing a slow ceremonial knife to a faster one, perhaps the game has been constructed so that the faster knives are more likely to have + mana on them. But that's going to have to be a choice you make based on the individual items.
As for Dots... you have to decide how easy it is to spread them. If you're talking about something like Haunt, a faster attack speed may be superior because you'll get those dots out much much faster with Weapon A than with B. And if you're using something like Consuming Spirit (health regen rune) for Haunt, getting the Haunts out asap will be much better for your regen. Also, a faster attack speed will allow you to cast a single target spell more.
I think the problem with slow weapons endgame is that there's a lot of moving you have to do. And if you have a fast weapon it's much easier to cast something quickly and keep moving. But with a slow weapon it's harder. So faster weapons may be preferable if you're running around a lot.
It's probably true that for Dots (non cooldown) a slower weapon is better. But it's really the most true for Dots that have high resource costs are are AoE. Things like Haunt I think benefit just as much from having a fast attack speed because you have to spread them to multiple targets individually.
But for something like Blizzard... you're much better off with a slow weapon. Assuming that Blizzard works the same way as other non-cooldown Dots. The resource cost on Blizzard is so high, you would almost rather it have a cooldown honestly and cover a larger area.
See if anyone else figures it out.
Not sure what you mean by mixed it up... that's exactly what I was trying to say. Dots do not tick faster with faster weapons. Dots with cooldowns will do the same damage with a slow weapon as a faster one if the DPS is the same. The "default" tick rate for dots is 2 APS.
If you test those same weapons with GotD you'll do damage proportional to the differences in DPS between the two weapons.
And again since the 1H and OH are 2 of only 3 items that will have mana on them, you should really lose a lot of mana with a 2H. Also, I don't really think dots are meant to be used as your main attack for the most part. Which is why it might make sense to get your dots out as soon as possible and then use a single target type of spell.
These posts are incredibly asinine.
Numbers are not rounded. They are floats/doubles.... HP is as well. If you do 0.00047 damage to the enemy ... the enemy life goes down by 0.00047.
You just do not see partial numbers... and so they appear to be rounded.
This is blatantly apparent when you use the WD blowdart with the starting weapon and the 40% poison applies.
I also found a white staff that does 15-21 damage (+33%) that has a dps of 17.9. There was a white staff on the auction house that does 15-21(+31%) that had a dps of 17.8.
I'm saying Dots with cooldowns. Haunt does not have a cooldown. Grasp of the Dead has a cooldown, which means you can't cast it any faster with a faster attack speed. And so the damage should scale with attack speed. That's why I said if someone tests GotD they should see that their damage changes based on damage AND attack speed. Again, dots with cooldowns should work differently than dots without cooldowns. I don't have Beta so I can't test this directly.
However, it'll be interesting to see how monster hit recovery works and if that's affected by weapon speed at all. At the very least, if you're hitting multiple monsters it would be useful. Also, I wonder how long the cold snare actually lasts. Someone should use frenzy with a fast cold weapon. I don't really know if it slows attack speed or just movement speed.