Balance on Legendary Drops, Zakarum, Paladins, Templars and Crusaders, Are Numbers Too Large in RoS

Balance on Legendary Drops

Lylirra cleared a bit of confusion on the nerfs of some Legendary drop rates and also gambling.

Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker/ Official Forums)

Let me clear this up a bit, because I think this is interpreting too much from an individual patch note.

The drop rate on specific Legendaries, ones with exceptionally powerful abilities, were lowered. The overall drop rate of Legendaries has stayed the same.

The reason for this is that Legendaries are now accessible through the Blood Shard vendor (purchases have a chance to give you a Legendary item). This is a pretty significant change, and we'd like to see how this interacts with drop rates and acquisition before we tweak numbers elsewhere.
Is it not also the case that the blood shard vendor cannot drop higher tier legendary items, such as the more powerful ones you guys lowered the drop rates on further? Or can the vendor drop every legendary in the game?
While Kadala cannot produce Torment level Legendaries, don't interpret "more powerful" as specifically meaning Torment level. While I see that jump in conclusion, it's not an accurate statement. By "more powerful," we're referring to items that have particularly strong effects. That's not exclusive to Torment level Legendaries.
It also further reinforces "bag farming" in normal as an easy way to get blood shards to gamble with and bags for legendary drops.
We're definitely watching for feedback on reward structure, and making sure that higher difficulties feel more rewarding. Not all the changes we have in mind to enforce this were able to make it into this patch, but it's a concern and we're keeping an eye on it.

Zakarum, Paladins, Templars and Crusaders

Nevalistis shared a lot of interesting lore information on the Light and its followers.

Originally Posted by Blizzard

Zakarum lore? Did someone call me by name? ;P
do they worship the light or some god in particular?
The Paladin, Templar, and Crusader are all from different branches of the Zakarum faith. The Zakarum itself is a series of teachings from Akarat, the founder of this religion. Very little is known of Akarat himself, as after he spread his teachings in Kehjistan, he ventured into the east and was never seen again. The worship comes from embodying a series of ideals rather than the belief in a centralized deity.

The Paladins serve as the militaristic branch of the Zakarum faith. It's important to note that this is an overarching group, and includes but is different from The Order of Paladins, where the Diablo 2 Paladin had his origins. This order broke away during the Zakarum Inquisition and later merged with the Knights of Westmarch. There are several orders of Paladins, so think of them as a very large organization, many with different goals or motivations, though all devoted to the Zakarum.

The Crusaders, at the time of General Rakkis' journey that ended in founding Westmarch, were created in secret and sent to the East, by a Zakarum cleric named Akkhan. He was growing concerned that there was a darkness creeping into his faith. The Crusaders still continue this mission, seeking a way to purge the evil that has tainted their faith.

The Templar are a different branch of the Zakarum founded in Westmarch, well after the city itself was founded. Very little is known about their ultimate goals or internal operations. If this is something you're interested in, I definitely recommend talking to Kormac. ;) His story will be explored a bit more in Reaper of Souls, as will the stories for the other followers and artisans.
Could you verify this Nevalistis? Is Zakarum dedicated to the worship of Light and Angels?

The original writings of the Zakarum are detailed in The Book of Cain, and it is described that Akarat received a revelation upon seeing a being he referred to as Yaerius, or "son of light" in his native language. There's contention on whether Yaerius was truly an archangel, or whether it was an echo of Uldyssian's sacrifice during the Sin War.

This spurred the thought that humans were powerful beings of Light, and Akarat set out to spread the word that this Light existed within each human. 

It's not so much that Zakarum is the worship of angels and the Light specifically, so much as it is the ideal that this Light exists within each human and humans should seek to acknowledge their "inner light" in order to live good lives. The sight of what was interpreted as an angel spurred this belief, and the acknowledgement of Light as a concept is certainly important, but neither are really a central focal point for worship.

The Zakarum do, generally, look at angels as "the good guys," but that's more of a jump in logic than part of their beliefs. Demons are bad, angels fight demons, so therefore angels must be good.

Malthael, on the other hand, appears to be spending much of his time in Reaper of Souls involved in an extensive PR campaign to clear up some of this confusion about the relationship between man and angels, so we may see this change. ;)

- The souls of sinners are punished in Hell, while the souls of the faithful are rewarded in Heaven.

This is more that this is a belief some denizens of Sanctuary have, and is not actually part of the Zakarum faith. Remember that the Burning Hells and High Heavens are literally physical locations in Sanctuary's universe. I'm note sure where this crept in as part of the tenants, short of being a misinterpretation from details in The Book of Cain or from taking the goal of the Sin War (to claim the hearts and souls of humankind) too literally. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

Hnng. Nope. Can't resist the pull of lore!

Also, what are the Origins of the Light? What is the "Light" from the High Heavens, and where does it come from?

I covered a little bit about the Light and the tenants of the Zakarum faith a bit earlier today, but I'll rephrase so it more applies to your questions.

The following is covered in The Book of Cain. When Sanctuary's universe was first created, there was but one being: The One or Anu. Anu warred with himself, and eventually cast out his darkness, forming the beast Tathamet. These two aspects battled for centuries, and when they finally both perished, their remains formed what we know of as the High Heavens and the Burning Hells.

The remains of Anu leaked forth the Light which formed into Angels and the High Heavens. This Light currently emanates from the Crystal Arch (which is said to be the backbone of Anu, as someone mentioned above). 

The Light that the Zakarum refers to, however, refers to the Light that exists within each human. This could be referencing as far back as the origin of Sanctuary, in which case the Light could be the remnants of the angelic bloodlines that helped create the original nephalem. It's a bit open to interpretation at this point, as is common with most faiths, fictitious or otherwise. =) (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)


Are Numbers Too Large in RoS

Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker/ Official Forums)

Quite a lot of good feedback in this thread so far, thanks for that guys :-)

The concern about large numbers in RoS, both in regards to damage as well as health pools, is one that has been brought up before and this is also a topic we are looking for more feedback on.

To those of you who are concerned about large damage numbers, could you tell us a little more about what kind of damage values you would like to see in game? Also, what would you consider a decent progression of your character's damage output?

To those of you who are concerned about large health pools (especially on the higher difficulties), could you tell us more about the kind of health pools you would expect to see in said difficulties? And how do you think those health pools should correlate with your charaters damage output?

Lastly, what is your opinion on torment difficulty in regards to damage and health pool numbers in general? Besides increased health pools/damage of monsters, what do you think should set the higher difficulties apart from the lower ones?

Comments

  • #1 Rcon
    sad
  • #2 theecheshirekat
    mman, havent played the beta, but drops make the game seem sketch at best. i'm worried.
  • #3 lorien1973
    Just watching some twitch feeds of level 70 toons, the damage numbers are way too high. 10 million damage on a hit?

    I know the games need to be balanced around people who have 350k dps from the rmah; but c'mon. These numbers are ridiculous.
  • #4 Demonhoarde
    Not a big fan of this.

    I just wish they would not balance the legendary drop rate around gambling specially since balancing the drop rates around the AH didn't work out too well for them. I don't know why they can't fathom that a decent drop rate on mobs is a good thing. In D2X you would find plenty of legendaries and set items doing Meph/Pindle/Baal runs and that never destroyed the longevity of the game.

    That system would work even more so now with account bound items as there really is no economy to mess up. And if they really want to make gambling a thing, why don't they keep a decent drop rate on mobs and a slightly lower one on gambling? Why are they so hell bent on skewing the effort/reward ratio so much?

    I had really high hopes for RoS and i am a bit worried about the way things look right now. Because it looks like they are converting the game from a AH simulator to a gambling simulator.

    Guess i'll just have to wait and see how this plays out.




    Last edited by Demonhoarde: 1/19/2014 11:24:01 PM
  • #5 TryHardEnmity
    That's one of the few things I had a problem with with RoS, the numbers! They're pretty crazy high, I'd really love to see something similar to what's happening with WoW. 100 millions are slightly too high, I'm a fan of lower numbers in gaming, around 1000-10000's. Anybody else in the same boat?
  • #6 aori
    Damage is ridiculous. I much prefer seeing a constant flow of 1s, 10s and 100s over millions. How long before people figure out settings to get 100million bursts -.-

    They would have to fix legacy before they could fix the expansion. Don't see that happening.
  • #7 elektrar
    Yes, the numbers are way too high. I understand that some players now in D3 have around 500k dos, but honestly that is supposed to be almost the mathematical roof and only a few players could reach this. In RoS it has to be increased because of this, but when I see that having dps between 1 and 2 mil after couple of weeks of playing, is wrong. My suggestion is balancing the game in the way that the high dps is no longer that important. Some legendaries are good example of it when their orange proc increases some game mechanics or a particular type of dmg - lighting, fire etc. is increased so the high dps number is not that mandatory in these cases. There could be other options such as increasing dmg of some runes or passives etc.
  • #8 JunkaDK
    All u guys saying the numbers are crazy.. instead of just whining, please come up with YOUR solution to the problem! Personally i dont have a problem with it.. i mean.. Its just numbers? Is it because you have crappy gear and are jealous of those who create those big numbers? They would have to redo the entire damage number system in order to fix this.. I would prefer they spend their time on something that actually matters!
  • #9 elektrar
    I don't think players are jealous of those numbers in RoS, they might be now, because they did not have enough money to purchase top gear, but in RoS is everything about drops and after couple of weeks everyone could have dps around 1mil. And don't forget that next expansion will have to have a lot more dmg again as well as hp, so we will talk in billions, trillions or more hp? I agree, it might be a waste of time discussing these things since there are other more important areas to improve. But still I think adjusting numbers would be one of the easiest tasks compared to others.
  • #10 eman41
    So before there was a faction of people complaining that legendaries were too common and they would get everything, becoming boored a month into the game. Now they slow that down a bit (for testing only to try some things), and another faction complains.

    Game design, everyone!
  • #11 Rcon


    Quote from eman41


    So before there was a faction of people complaining that legendaries were too common and they would get everything, becoming boored a month into the game. Now they slow that down a bit (for testing only to try some things), and another faction complains.

    Game design, everyone!


    the F&F that played 12 hr a day complain about drops to much, not much of a faction there when it was so little.
  • #12 lorien1973
    It's not jealousy. It just looks bad on screen. I'm not sure if you are in the beta or have seen beta footage; but a huge 9,540,317 on screen looks stupid. Bosses with 17 gabillion hitpoints to compensate looks stupid as well.

    It's pretty similar to inflation in some third world African country, right? 17 kabillion dollars might look good there; but when it only buys a loaf of bread, it's far less impressive. 9 million damage might look good to you; but when it really does 0.01% of the monster's health; what's the point?

    There are multiple solutions; but here's the easiest. Instead of something doing 500% weapon damage, have it do 5% instead. That'd cut your 9540317 hit to a number that's more relatable. Adjust mob health to match.
  • #13 lorien1973


    Quote from eman41


    So before there was a faction of people complaining that legendaries were too common and they would get everything, becoming boored a month into the game. Now they slow that down a bit (for testing only to try some things), and another faction complains.

    Game design, everyone!


    The random nature of legendary drops makes it impossible that everyone will be happy. It might a ton more sense if legendaries were crafted from materials that drop from various elites/bosses/events around the world. For more powerful ones, it just takes more of those materials.
  • #14 CardinalMDM
    I don't know, personally, I think gambling with Kadala is pretty much the same as gambling in D2...it just presents a different/additional form of gear acquisition. The idea comes up of people farming Bounties and Blood Shards on Normal in RoS, but how is that any different than high end characters who can faceroll Hell difficulty in D2 farming class-specific items in Nightmare (with lots of skill buffs) to sell for oodles of gold that they take to Gheed for gambling? Granted, not sure how many people did that specifically, but to me, it feels like basically the same idea. And by restricting the available high end items Kadala can produce, it provides more incentive to push oneself to go to those harder difficulty levels to get those better items.

    My big concern with getting items from Kadala would be to gamble on specific slots to finish off Sets. The blue above says legendaries can be acquired through gambling, and I think that's pretty great. But most of my Blood Shards (unless I hit some cap or limit and can't get any more) are going to go toward finishing Sets. So even if the most powerful Set items aren't available through Kadala, that at least some set items are available through Kadala.
    Last edited by CardinalMDM: 1/20/2014 1:55:01 PM
  • #15 Setsoru
    I like the numbers as they are. I can't stand to play games where I am doing 1, 10, 100 dmg, that's retarded. Makes me feel like I am 5 again with a cheap BB gun *plink* *plink* If I wanted to *plink* at something I'd go buy a cheap a** BB gun and *plink* away at bottles in my backyard and have a 'gasm when I finally managed to break one.
  • #16 helpme123


    Quote from Setsoru


    I like the numbers as they are. I can't stand to play games where I am doing 1, 10, 100 dmg, that's retarded. Makes me feel like I am 5 again with a cheap BB gun *plink* *plink* If I wanted to *plink* at something I'd go buy a cheap a** BB gun and *plink* away at bottles in my backyard and have a 'gasm when I finally managed to break one.


    This is the same argument the media bot on why inflation is good. Why do you want to work for $500 when you can have a bigger number like $50,000. I honestly careless about the number, but when I care is how much I can buy with the money. If the $500 buy me more, sure pay me $500. If they think $50,000 sound better, they should just move to Zimbabwe and get pay 500,000,000m a year. But way, it cost 2,000,000,000 just to buy an egg.
  • #17 Abstract_Chaos
    Well it's hard to go back when you have numbers the way there are in vanilla D3. That being said, I do agree it's a little preposterous to see millions per hit and that it would be nice for mobs to mitigate damage from certain builds/take more from certain builds (and by builds I mean items/elemental/affixes etc. as well as skills).

    I don't think it's something to cry about, though. Is there an option to turn off dmg numbers in the game? Surely that can be a solution for those who are absolutely bothered by not seeing a string of numbers they are satisfied with. I understand they are long "lines" of numbers, but at ~3 digits, is it really that much less of a clutter of still thousands of damage points on your screen?

    I will enjoy replaying the game on PS4 and working my way up to that 'godly' DPS :P
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