But now with the nerf of patch 13 the amounts stats increase on the damage buffs have all been decreased! The real losses started happening around +50%, where any additional stats after about +50% resulted in small gains compared to what you put in. You would feel that putting +stats into these already buffed up stats was inefficient. Now I feel that with smaller +damage buffs I am free to stack more of them because I might not be hitting that threshold where I'm wasting buffs. I noticed that in the beta the buff on the deadly reach crimson rune was decreased...
Nerfs happen across the board and yet the passive was untouched. Actually that should mean the value of the damage from the passive went up not down! Every number was brought down by some degree and yet the passive remains the same obviously for good reason. The passive itself may not have been as powerful as they intended and by lowering the stats slightly getting those numbers Monks would have to pull before the nerf may require this passive to be a much more necessary part of the build.
This is just conjecture about why the nerfs happened. It could be very well that they were nerfed for a different reason. Still +% damage is a powerful buff. Before or after the buffs it should be giving the same +% buff. Basically if Monks were doing more damage than any other class and were nerfed because of it that does not mean that +% damage is any less powerful than it was before if it was too powerful! Yes it is less but less of a number that is balanced properly is still a substantial amount. If they really felt the nerfs would effect it too much they would have obviously buffed the passive.
Also on that note Bashock stated that since patch 13 hit pretty much they are devoting themselves to tuning the game for the release. From now until that time we will probably see little tweaks and what not to balance out anything that was thrown out of balance, or never was balanced in the first place, by the recent patch.
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So realistically (if my assumptions are correct), we will find ourselves averaging the 16% buff using 2 main SG's and hitting 24% for 3 sec every 30 sec (refreshing DR). Combine that with the amount of focus required (until you are grinding on auto-pilot) and we've got ourselves a passive skill, that really is not very passive at all. It requires constant active action for it to actually function, which when taking into account everything else you will have going on around you in inferno, might make it to much of a bother then gain to be using the passive at all.
This was the main thing I was trying to get at before when we were getting off topic. Since Combination Strike is our only real damage buff to better our output we should at least start off by saying every monk should consider seriously taking the passive if they have 2 generators+ I would go so far as to even say that one generator alone is enough to really see a good benefit from it, but I digress.
Before we did come to the conclusion that if one wanted to really see a good build with this it would use 3 generators. 4 Looked too high because of the sheer amount of switching around and lack of support skills to stay alive with. 2 is out of the question because the idea of the thread was to get the most bonus from the passive without sacrificing too much tank, but once again I have digressed from the point I am trying to make.
When we stated that 3 generators would be one of the best builds was because of the good support and relativity simplistic rotations needed to really achieve what you needed. Even if these combos are easy to achieve I stated that it would be very hard to keep up your stacks all the time. Enemies have CC abilities (freezing, knockback, stun, etc), groups are spread out at times, some even run away from you and try to kite the player with slows (Matriarch Bones event and the other ghost boss). In essence trying to keep up 3 stacks is probably the most powerful build option available but it is plagued with the problem of being situational; I would go so far as to say it may be THE best damage dealing monk build but that has yet to really be seen.
Also after getting behind the wheel both Tenhi and I agree that it is hard to chain the attacks because of how fast they tend to be with 1h weapons. It is just a struggle to do something as simple as 121 (though 112 is kinda easy because you can judge it better). I have personally tried to play as if I had this passive and I can say that it might be hard to do and it seems like the world is against us having the buff, however it is doable. It is only doable insofar as to say that you should try to get 3 stacks. I feel it is a little much to at least ask the average gamer to keep and hold 3 stacks. If you had a good bit of practice I can see it not being that hard to really achieve at all but I have to stress that it is not a build to be taken lightly. Going for 3 gen is going to be sloppy very often and I feel when doing this math you should not always just assume that you are dealing with 3 stacks rather show the numbers for 3 and 2 at least because it will be hard to get the stacks.
Not saying we can't do the build. Just saying it may be much more difficult than it appears to really get the effect that we desire.
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I think it's pretty much the mandatory passive for building damage orientated monks. With a 3 second duration you can easily keep this rolling during combat once you get used to the flow of combat. The moment i find out you do not need Seize the initiative or transendance to survive normally i will pick this up. I'm not a fan of using for example the +15% dmg modifier on crippling wave as it will cost you the runespot for Mangle making crippling wave deal a shit ton more damage.
I do hope you can stack up the effect with, lets say 123. then keep a 222 223 combo going on and still keep the effect from 1 up. Leaving 1 (for example deadly reach) for gimmicky situations and rolling the crimson rune effect.
In effect that is what we are assuming right now. As long as you do at least some type of generator you will either retain the current stack or add 1 to it. The main problem we seem to be running into is if the buff can be refreshed with with any generator regardless if it is different or not.
Ya I had a feeling others would see the +damage from Combination to be nearly mandatory.
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Thanks Tenhi. Getting back on topic I had the thought last night. Maybe Combination Strike was not just for 'gimmicky' builds like we have been talking about. As it stands all the Monk has in the way of +damage passives are The Guardians Path (2h), Chant of Resonance (kinda crappy) and Combination Strike. Even on a more typical 2 generator build Combination an easily give a 16% bonus. This is on par with other classes like DH and Wizard who have ridiculous amounts of passives devoted to getting more damage output.
I guess what I'm getting at would be, is Combination Strike a necessary passive to get Monk dps on par with other classes? I understand we don't know the numbers but just looking at all the other classes and seeing +damage passives maybe this is the case. I also am under the impression that since this appears to be the highest damage output passive, even with 2gen, even tough the community as a whole does not seem to really agree about this.
Thoughts?
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And btw, no wonder that guy dies in inferno whit the shitty build he had... Don't tell me that this guy was a pro... He had like 7SS, WOL and BOH in the same build. No sane person would ever go for such a heavy spirit spender build.
That Vid is from a pretty old build with CDs on 7SS and WoL...the thing is even then there is no problem with running around with 1 Gen and 4 Spender (+1 Mantra). He used Tempest Rush, 7SS, WoL and BoH? Why not... Tempest Rush had no Spirit Cost in the Vid, WoL and 7SS have a CD... so there should be plenty of room for all those skills.
But I agree on one part... the Monk was bad. He had like 40% HP... and used WoL instead of BoH Oo he sat there and waited for his death instead of using his heal <_<
I think the scaling of real life yards to in game yards is different. 15 yards should be a fair amount. With some skills being 24 yards , That sounds like a lot of range but it turns out its a dash small. I wonder if this is going to be fixed or if its all intentional. or the last option Iv lost my faint grip on reality. All are good options.
The scale is completly off. An average person is what? 2 yards tall? If the Ingame Char is 2 yards then the skills are way off.
Yes the scale is completely off. I don't think they really thought much about that when they were working on the game. Personally I don't mind too much. I just pretend 1 yrd = 1 foot than it looks much better.
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I think the scaling of real life yards to in game yards is different. 15 yards should be a fair amount. With some skills being 24 yards , That sounds like a lot of range but it turns out its a dash small. I wonder if this is going to be fixed or if its all intentional. or the last option Iv lost my faint grip on reality. All are good options.
We already have moon physics when you kill an enemy and send them flying through the air. This was an intentional choice. I have a feeling if they already put those numbers in for ranges they will scale as such in game. I know what you mean the yards are quite a bit off but I really do not think that this is the top of their list of things to work on :/
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BoH is range limited! I stated somewhere else that range on screen is much shorter than you would think by reading over the spell. I think BoH as we are thinking to be used on the party is a little off. 15 yards is essentially standing right onto of your character. (about the distance that Deadly Reach can hit from) I have a feeling it may be a little unbalanced that BoH is so powerful but that is probably why the others are under powered in comparison.
The Mantra allows healing from 40 yards off and this can allow healing almost across the screen. At a lower amount yes but regardless it will at least hit those casters in the back and heal them too. The divide between these too abilities is apparent but the range differences really shows what they are geared for. BoH is really focused on the Monk, especially if he is tanking, where as the Mantra allows more healing output but it can only do so in a party.
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Everyone would agree that there is no point having breath of heaven if you can just spam the mantra of healing for half the price and gives almost the same amount of healing. There is definetly going to be cooldowns on stuff and it is not implemented yet. If you check the video from blizzard where they say that we are gonna die, if you check carefully, i recall seeing a cooldown on wave of light in that video. And btw, no wonder that guy dies in inferno whit the shitty build he had... Don't tell me that this guy was a pro... He had like 7SS, WOL and BOH in the same build. No sane person would ever go for such a heavy spirit spender build.
Wave used to have a CD but they removed it in a recent patch from what I recall.
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Well the main point to take away is the amount it would heal for would be something close to BoH runed crimson. The only reason why I say this is a bad thing is because when you look at the numbers you are spending 25 spirit opposed to spending 50. The spirit spent gap is rather absurd for the healing output potential between these two moves.
By the way the mantra itself seems to work is that when you activate it you get a short term buff along side the long term buff. I assume it over rides the first (or adds to it) to give you that initial bonus. I have a feeling the shield will be tied into the short term buff. ie the buff will both heal over time for the increased amount and give the bubble.
All that said the rune system was not finished before posting it. They just wanted to give us an idea as to how everything is going to work. It was not a promise that things are going to be exactly as they read. It may very well do what it says but it also seems the most recent patch they have been working on has been all centered around tweaking the rune system so they are all balanced.
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Doesnt the OPness of mantra of healing activation depends on how hard the enemy pummels your face?
In addition, you do not regenerate spirit or dish out damage when pressing mantra so often anyway, youll prolly end up in a bag once you go low on spirit. Statisticly speaking if you get attacked 4 times during the mantra of evasion buff you dodge an additional 1 attack. if it hits for 1 damage that is useless, if you dodge a 100.000dmg hit its overpowered.
Then again that is solo, in co-op i can kinda agree that its gonna get silly with 200 spirit and 3 partners mashing that thing ever 3sec.
Next to the heal a 25% shield on all members times 8 before you run dry is quite nuts. In contrast a non activated mantra of healing is quite shitty tho
You also do dish out damage and generate spirit. It has already been checked in the beta and stated in this topic that you can generate spirit and use the Mantra every 3 seconds. Even the numbers point to you being able to do with without even logging in.
Well do not forget at higher levels the enemies will start to deal much more damage. Being able to spam something to in essence bubble you up constantly is quite OP. Even in solo the game is designed to be very hard. In no way is the game balanced when you can just say "I have to have x rune with y mantra because it is the best ever and I will be kicked from the party if I do not have it" The intention of the rune system was to get around this problem but with the current iteration of the rune lacking this cool down makes it strictly better than any other option just by the sheer amount of damage you can mitigate per second.
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Ok just checked now. The short term buff goes away when switching Mantra. There is now possible way to overlap the long or short term. Also there is no CD at all. It can go as fast as your attack speed. Reapplying it does refresh the duration of the short term buff as well. Knowing this some of these runes really look over powered >.>
I was looking at that as well, reading the short term rune buffs that is. I came to the same conclusion that some of them are very powerful, and now that you confirm that they are "spammable" in a sense - well could it be they over looked it or will the "problem" disappear in the upcoming skill revamp. If its not changed, I believe "Mantra monk" will be very real in the coming future.
At least for me, spamming a mantra is not a viable/nor fun play style, but each to their own I guess
This is true. I feel we are being left out of the loop on purpose with some of these things because the dev team does not want to get our hopes up. There are way too many abilities that when I look at the runes I say "there is no way that is going to be in the game" the Mantras are the greatest victim of that scrutiny. I really feel that within the next few days we will find out the proper cool downs for these and than we will really know what is OP and what is not.
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Ok just checked now. The short term buff goes away when switching Mantra. There is now possible way to overlap the long or short term. Also there is no CD at all. It can go as fast as your attack speed. Reapplying it does refresh the duration of the short term buff as well. Knowing this some of these runes really look over powered >.>
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Nerfs happen across the board and yet the passive was untouched. Actually that should mean the value of the damage from the passive went up not down! Every number was brought down by some degree and yet the passive remains the same obviously for good reason. The passive itself may not have been as powerful as they intended and by lowering the stats slightly getting those numbers Monks would have to pull before the nerf may require this passive to be a much more necessary part of the build.
This is just conjecture about why the nerfs happened. It could be very well that they were nerfed for a different reason. Still +% damage is a powerful buff. Before or after the buffs it should be giving the same +% buff. Basically if Monks were doing more damage than any other class and were nerfed because of it that does not mean that +% damage is any less powerful than it was before if it was too powerful! Yes it is less but less of a number that is balanced properly is still a substantial amount. If they really felt the nerfs would effect it too much they would have obviously buffed the passive.
Also on that note Bashock stated that since patch 13 hit pretty much they are devoting themselves to tuning the game for the release. From now until that time we will probably see little tweaks and what not to balance out anything that was thrown out of balance, or never was balanced in the first place, by the recent patch.
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This was the main thing I was trying to get at before when we were getting off topic. Since Combination Strike is our only real damage buff to better our output we should at least start off by saying every monk should consider seriously taking the passive if they have 2 generators+ I would go so far as to even say that one generator alone is enough to really see a good benefit from it, but I digress.
Before we did come to the conclusion that if one wanted to really see a good build with this it would use 3 generators. 4 Looked too high because of the sheer amount of switching around and lack of support skills to stay alive with. 2 is out of the question because the idea of the thread was to get the most bonus from the passive without sacrificing too much tank, but once again I have digressed from the point I am trying to make.
When we stated that 3 generators would be one of the best builds was because of the good support and relativity simplistic rotations needed to really achieve what you needed. Even if these combos are easy to achieve I stated that it would be very hard to keep up your stacks all the time. Enemies have CC abilities (freezing, knockback, stun, etc), groups are spread out at times, some even run away from you and try to kite the player with slows (Matriarch Bones event and the other ghost boss). In essence trying to keep up 3 stacks is probably the most powerful build option available but it is plagued with the problem of being situational; I would go so far as to say it may be THE best damage dealing monk build but that has yet to really be seen.
Also after getting behind the wheel both Tenhi and I agree that it is hard to chain the attacks because of how fast they tend to be with 1h weapons. It is just a struggle to do something as simple as 121 (though 112 is kinda easy because you can judge it better). I have personally tried to play as if I had this passive and I can say that it might be hard to do and it seems like the world is against us having the buff, however it is doable. It is only doable insofar as to say that you should try to get 3 stacks. I feel it is a little much to at least ask the average gamer to keep and hold 3 stacks. If you had a good bit of practice I can see it not being that hard to really achieve at all but I have to stress that it is not a build to be taken lightly. Going for 3 gen is going to be sloppy very often and I feel when doing this math you should not always just assume that you are dealing with 3 stacks rather show the numbers for 3 and 2 at least because it will be hard to get the stacks.
Not saying we can't do the build. Just saying it may be much more difficult than it appears to really get the effect that we desire.
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In effect that is what we are assuming right now. As long as you do at least some type of generator you will either retain the current stack or add 1 to it. The main problem we seem to be running into is if the buff can be refreshed with with any generator regardless if it is different or not.
Ya I had a feeling others would see the +damage from Combination to be nearly mandatory.
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I guess what I'm getting at would be, is Combination Strike a necessary passive to get Monk dps on par with other classes? I understand we don't know the numbers but just looking at all the other classes and seeing +damage passives maybe this is the case. I also am under the impression that since this appears to be the highest damage output passive, even with 2gen, even tough the community as a whole does not seem to really agree about this.
Thoughts?
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Yes the scale is completely off. I don't think they really thought much about that when they were working on the game. Personally I don't mind too much. I just pretend 1 yrd = 1 foot than it looks much better.
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We already have moon physics when you kill an enemy and send them flying through the air. This was an intentional choice. I have a feeling if they already put those numbers in for ranges they will scale as such in game. I know what you mean the yards are quite a bit off but I really do not think that this is the top of their list of things to work on :/
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The Mantra allows healing from 40 yards off and this can allow healing almost across the screen. At a lower amount yes but regardless it will at least hit those casters in the back and heal them too. The divide between these too abilities is apparent but the range differences really shows what they are geared for. BoH is really focused on the Monk, especially if he is tanking, where as the Mantra allows more healing output but it can only do so in a party.
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Wave used to have a CD but they removed it in a recent patch from what I recall.
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By the way the mantra itself seems to work is that when you activate it you get a short term buff along side the long term buff. I assume it over rides the first (or adds to it) to give you that initial bonus. I have a feeling the shield will be tied into the short term buff. ie the buff will both heal over time for the increased amount and give the bubble.
All that said the rune system was not finished before posting it. They just wanted to give us an idea as to how everything is going to work. It was not a promise that things are going to be exactly as they read. It may very well do what it says but it also seems the most recent patch they have been working on has been all centered around tweaking the rune system so they are all balanced.
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You also do dish out damage and generate spirit. It has already been checked in the beta and stated in this topic that you can generate spirit and use the Mantra every 3 seconds. Even the numbers point to you being able to do with without even logging in.
Well do not forget at higher levels the enemies will start to deal much more damage. Being able to spam something to in essence bubble you up constantly is quite OP. Even in solo the game is designed to be very hard. In no way is the game balanced when you can just say "I have to have x rune with y mantra because it is the best ever and I will be kicked from the party if I do not have it" The intention of the rune system was to get around this problem but with the current iteration of the rune lacking this cool down makes it strictly better than any other option just by the sheer amount of damage you can mitigate per second.
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Sorry had to fix that table.
This is true. I feel we are being left out of the loop on purpose with some of these things because the dev team does not want to get our hopes up. There are way too many abilities that when I look at the runes I say "there is no way that is going to be in the game" the Mantras are the greatest victim of that scrutiny. I really feel that within the next few days we will find out the proper cool downs for these and than we will really know what is OP and what is not.
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Sorry had to fix that table.
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