Not everything will be BoE. Like the example I used in my other post, just because the crafted amulet is bound doesn't mean the materials used to craft it are. It creates active trade among more objects in the game while leaving out the chance to be the best simply by having the best gear available without effort.
How would the best gear available without effort? Does it really matter if I craft my own amulet, or build wealth in other ways and trade some dude for an amulet he crafted?
As far as the whole duping/item buying ruining the economy, you got one thing right at least. These did screw up the D2 economy. I'd much rather just see these fixxed then BoE, which I can't see accomplishing anything other then hurting trading, discouraging experimentation, and adding grind time.
I still can't believe some people prefer spending 3 hours trying to trade some gear, instead of spending those 3 hours killing monsters. just a hypothetical question: if in 3 hours of PvE you got decent pieces of gear(to trade or use), would you rather play PvE for those 3 hours or would you rather spend 3 hours on trade channels?
I'd rather spend 1 minute making a post of d2jsp and 2 hours and 59 minutes pvp/pk'ing. Why not make D3 more trader friendly so I had a way in game to wheel and deal while pvm'ing or pvp'ing. Somehow, I can't see how BoE would fit in the trader friendly category.
I extremely doubt trade will take 3 hours with the new trade system.. if yes Blizzard failed.
Gold based and binding gear...I thought they were just trying to do away with trading in D3.
I strongly suspect that if Blizzard decides to use a BoE/BoP economy, it will mainly be on player-created gear, with a few uniques and set items also in that repertoire. Think of crafted amulets from D2. If those were BoP (actually, bound when created), a lot more of the resources would have been burned by crafting amulets not for your class, although with a bit of luck you could still create something that is superior to nearly everything else in the game. These burned resources in turn need to be farmed again, or traded for again to give it another shot instead of skipping the hoopla and trading straight for the best you can afford.
One of the biggest complaints people have had with d2 were top end items being too insanely rare. An actual badass crafted amulet was amongst the rarest of the rare. Most people haven't even ever owned a godly crafted amulet either self made or via trade, because they are that rare. Considering that, would binding them really be too intelligent? I think if I managed to craft a gg amulet with 20fcr, a nice str mod, some life, and some res on my assassin, only it had +2 to paladin skills and was only useable by my assassin, I would just stop playing the game because that would be the most annoying pointless feature ever.
As far as the PvE versus PvP arguement goes, the possibility of BoE/BoP is a pretty moot issue. The field is even between PvP participants. Need to craft amulets until you get what you need? Farm it out or do what most PvPers claim to have been doing anyway: play the market to get the materials needed to craft. You are now contributing to the economical system, driving up the demand until some PvE player is happy to earn coin in exchange for the materials you need, further validating the BoE/BoP system.
The reason people can play the market in D2 is because things don't bind. I've made many a trade for items I currently had that I still wanted, simply because the other guy was giving a sweet offer, and I knew with a little patience I could trade back with someone else for what I originally had and make some profit. Had my gear been bound, I would have been unable to do this.
If it ends up where only the "best in slot" item for each character binds, guess what the economy is going to mold into. Its going to amount to unbound BoE piece for unbound BoE piece, and everything else is going to be like the green pieces in D2, you'll drop a stash full of it in a noob game and they'll all get a boner while your laughing becuase you know its all worthless junk.
Besides, your missing the huge gripe of pvp'ers. We don't want to grind out the same pve content over and over just to be able to get to the part of the game we enjoy the most. I liked D2 because after I got established at the start of each ladder, I'd spend about 3 hours pk'ig/dueling for every hour I spent pve'ing. If that ratio was reversed and I was spending all my time doing the same pve content over and over, I probably would have played d2 for 10 months, not 10 years, especially since the only reason I had to pve at all anymore after already beating the game with multiple builds for each class was to acquire items to pvp with.
grind - you gotta grind for some wealth and levels
trading - chances are everything you need isnt going to be self found, and youll find things of value you don't need, so knowing the economy to maximize your trades is a big factor
game knowledge - You need to know how to spec and gear your character. You also need to know how to fight your build vs other builds. The more builds you can play well yourself, the more you'll know how to fight against, so game knowledge and experience is a huge factor. If your not using the proper tactics at the appropriate time, you fail.
skill - twitch gaming, whatever you want to call it. D2 pvp is fast paced, and most fights between good characters don't last more then 2-4 hits. If you can't evade and aim well with your character your not going to do well in pvp.
It's a matter of how we view the game. I look at it as a whole. If I want to play a PvP game, I'll buy a pvp game. I'm not going try and force the developers to change the game around how I want to play the game.
Considering D2 is the king of all gank and run hack and slash rpgs, I guess this makes it unfair to remove the gank and run style pk. Don't change the diablo series, go play pokemon if you want a kiddy game where everyone holds hands and tickles eachother.
As far as BoE though, like it or hate it, its not going to actually solve the problem of the economy getting overloaded. Just because I can't trade my current item doesn't mean I have any reason to trade you for yours. The best BoE will do is add mindless pve grind and discourage experimentation with gear set ups.
Only two ways I can think of to keep a game economy fresh and prevent inflation...
1. D2 style periodic ladder resets. Obviously we're all familiar with this system and its pros and cons.
2. Permanent destruction of items. You need to create demand. All BoE does is slow supply. If your filling a bucket with water it doesn't matter if the hose is halfway on or full blast, the bucket will overflow at some point.
"Put yourself in blizzard's shoes: you spend years making a game, and along comes this group of players (PvP) who does everything in their power to avoid playing the game. a bit disheartening, no? now, you can say "oh, but we play the game, we just don't play it over and over and over again". that might be, but let's face it: most of your characters were probably rushed, anyway, so you hardly experienced the game at all. personally, i've completed the game with all classes at least once, and if you think finishing Hell with non-cookie-cutters is just a matter of grinding and farming....you're mistaken."
Good one, its like, where is your damn appreciation? kinda line, it works for me sometimes, I dont know for the others here.
The thing you pve only players fail to recognize. PvP is harder then pve. I enjoyed the pve of the game, I played through various builds for each class at some point, but it gets to a point where you learn a lot about the game, and the generic ai of pve is just too easy, so a lot of people move on to pvp as the next challenge.
Besides considering pvp'ing requires good gear to actually be fun...how did I acquire this gear. It couldn't possible have been *gasp* I did some pve and trading. Maybe it helps to know the game well and be more efficient at pve and trading so you can achieve in a couple weeks what it takes others 6 months to do.
The bottum line is, every decent dueler I've ever played with could rape pve 890187978 different ways. However, I've met plenty of decent pve'ers that just flat out suck at pvp. So next time you accuse pvp'ers, who must be good at pve/trading to be good at dueling, of not wanting to play the game, why not take a step back, look at the whole picture, and you might just realize...you've only ever played half the game.
The problem here is that D3 is a Hack'n slash...if you want people to keep on playing it, you need more and than adventure, you need competition.
Agreed. Its so much more challenging and random playing against peple then playing against the same lame ai over and over. Every rpg'ish type game has the same pvm. You need to beat a certain boss/area, you figure out a strategy that beats it, you can now beat it 100% of the time. Good luck doing that in pvp.
PVP'ers don't give a flying crap about killing a Boss you killed two days ago again. The PVE enjoyment for us is in the experience of the first few playhtoughs of the game. And after that for the next 10 years or whatever, the fun is in PVP and the ever enjoyable climb towards the most perfect gear and gear combinations.
Lololz couldnt agree more:)
The alternative is when making a game, the game is either pvp enabled, or not.
The problem with this is then it kills pk. Everyone doing any type of pub level/mf runs is going to toggle it off.
I can understand some people don't want the type of gank and run that was allowable in D2, but guess what, plenty of people enjoyed the d2 anytime anywhere pk system(minus the tppk crap of course) enough that completely removing it is a rather stupid decision.
Why not just make 2 seperate servers? Instead of uswest and useast, have pk and nopk. Run them just like the current servers are. This leaves it at the best of both worlds for everyone. You want to pve, cool, have fun with that. Likewise, you shouldnt be able to drag all your characters you leveled/geared in the safe server to the pk server. If you want to participate in the gank and run goodness you need to be on both sides of the coin, the hunter and the hunted.
How the f*ck does it affect your PVE experience? You don't want to trade for items then don't. Go PVE to your hearts content
Thats what I'm wondering. The way I always operated each ladder reset in d2 was I'd pve like crazy until I had a good dueler set up, then I'd generally spend most of my time pk'ing random games and screwing around in duel games. I'd still mf and trade, but it was only to slowly build mor wealth to pimp out more duelers. Eventually when you get to the point where you have a couple characters niceley geared you don't really have a reason to pve anymore. Sure, I'd still spend some time pve'ing because it was amusing from time to time just to feel like a god pwning hordes of little trash monsters and the game always had a way of leaving you a little hope that your next drop will be the godly one...
But the beauty of the system was I got sick of a particular character, I could trade all his gear off and do something else. If I had 50 hours worth of mf/trade time over the course of a month focused on gearing up a character, it was awesome knowing that time wasnt wasted when I got sick of that alt. Now if all the high end gear is bound on equip, guess what, I'm gonna grind out one character, do some pvp'ing, and probably start a second and think "my god I don't want to have to be forced to do all this sucky pve grinding again just because forcing all my previously acquired godlies to now be worthless somehow makes the game funner."
That's probably also about the time I uninstall, take the disc out of my computer, scratch it lightly in a few places with a pin so it no longer works, and go back to gamestop all pissed off they sold me a bad cd and demand my money back.
Agreed, again, but I loved when people did this to my windy druid they would hostile find me die come back die again then rage when they started it so everyone who does this loves to "try" and dish it out, but when it backfires they cant take it.
You pretty much sum it up right here. I used to hate getting pk'd, but then I took the time to learn the game and became a decent player, and guess what, more often then not a PK'er joined my game they got denied. Its fun both ways unless you lose every time...but then again it is an rpg, people that took the time to grind/trade for awesome gear and took the time to learn the best tactics in various situations should have a combat advantage.
Let's just outlaw online games because its going to lead to people getting killed irl. While we're at it, lets outlaw that damn rap music too...
I'm forced to deal with morons in a civil manner all day in real life. Is it that awful that I find pk'ing people and listening to them cry an enjoyable way to unwind after a long day? Yeah your right, I don't go around being a dick to everyone in real life becuase I'd end up in a lot of trouble...but like you said its a game. Wheres the harm in being a bad guy in a game? The name of the game is Diablo...if I wanted to hold everyones hand I'd go play Squishy Fluffy Land.
If I'm not cheating with third party programs or intentionally exploiting known glitches to my advantage, then whatever I'm doing is completely fair. I join your game, I hostile you, I find you, I fight you...wheres the unfairness? If it leads to extreme amounts of e-rage that someone bests you in a game on occasion, then thats the perfect time to take a break and eat some ice cream or something.
Michal I could not agree with you more. Theres never going to be a game design thats absolute perfection, people are always going to complain about something, but when you have a game like D2 that was the trendsetter for the genre that has yet to be toppled by another similar playing game, why change it to be more like other games?
It boggles me that blizzard can't look at D2 and say ok guys, whats some features this game had that others didnt? It seems like that would be the perfect basis for molding a sequel. Instead it seems like they are systematically tearing out the awesome from the Diablo series.
I had wet dreams for a month when they announced D3, but since some of the things they've been announcing I doubt I'll even waste 50 bucks on it. Respecs, binding gear, gold economy, neutered pk, bleh! Oh wait, they're spending a lot of time working on random quests... Is this a joke? I really don't care if I kill a red goblin 3 times, a blue one twice, a brown one twice...or just kill a red one 8 times. I haven't been such a long time fan of the diablo series because the pvm was fun...its all about the pvp/pk, various ways to interact with people either as a nice guy or a jerk, and the funnest trading system in any game I've ever played. Open ended bartering that actually allows for variation in trade is awesome, why kill it with a gold system where everything has a set value. No more being able to haggle someone to throw a little extra in, becuase everyones gonna know thats only worth 100 gold and thats all you get. Booorrrrrring.
I just get a funny feeling a lot of people on here have never even had a decked out character. It could take months to put together a sweet character on ladder, or years to put together an absolute perfect character on non-ladder. Once you get that character though, you can completely trade it for another set of equal value as quickly as you find someone else looking to swap to try something new out. It seems totally backwards to add in respecs because people hate grinding out a new alt, even though you can easily level to 80+ in a few hours or less, then turn around and add in binding gear, something thats just going to force you to grind more each time you want to experiment with something else.
I just don't see any purpose to a feature thats going to punish you for experimenting and limit trading. What if I were to make a fire sorc, and decide its not really my type of character, and change to ice sorc. Either its gonna suck horrible having to scrap a set of gear since I can't trade it. On the flipside, if it takes less time to regear a character in D3 then it would take to trade a gear set and level an alt in D2, then its still an awful feature. This system is destined to suck.
Blizzard pull your heads out of you arses please. I've been a D2 fan from the day it was released, up until the day you announced respecs. It seems like you just want to wussify d2 a little to gradually work all us long time d2 addicts into the true wussification that will manifest itself in D3. Nobody can mess anything up, everyone has to be friends, and if you want anything all you have to do is grind mindlessly enough to save up enough gold for...this is where D3 is headed. Meanwhile the D2 formula was you messed up you deal with it, everyone can be a jerk so find some good friends, and grind time can be slashed way down simply by the open trading system and learning how to work it.
Please stop screwing Diablo over blizzard, I might have to re-enter reality if you do. You can't allow this to happen, as my fiance might no longer consider a soj a valid engagement ring:(
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How would the best gear available without effort? Does it really matter if I craft my own amulet, or build wealth in other ways and trade some dude for an amulet he crafted?
As far as the whole duping/item buying ruining the economy, you got one thing right at least. These did screw up the D2 economy. I'd much rather just see these fixxed then BoE, which I can't see accomplishing anything other then hurting trading, discouraging experimentation, and adding grind time.
I'd rather spend 1 minute making a post of d2jsp and 2 hours and 59 minutes pvp/pk'ing. Why not make D3 more trader friendly so I had a way in game to wheel and deal while pvm'ing or pvp'ing. Somehow, I can't see how BoE would fit in the trader friendly category.
Gold based and binding gear...I thought they were just trying to do away with trading in D3.
One of the biggest complaints people have had with d2 were top end items being too insanely rare. An actual badass crafted amulet was amongst the rarest of the rare. Most people haven't even ever owned a godly crafted amulet either self made or via trade, because they are that rare. Considering that, would binding them really be too intelligent? I think if I managed to craft a gg amulet with 20fcr, a nice str mod, some life, and some res on my assassin, only it had +2 to paladin skills and was only useable by my assassin, I would just stop playing the game because that would be the most annoying pointless feature ever.
The reason people can play the market in D2 is because things don't bind. I've made many a trade for items I currently had that I still wanted, simply because the other guy was giving a sweet offer, and I knew with a little patience I could trade back with someone else for what I originally had and make some profit. Had my gear been bound, I would have been unable to do this.
If it ends up where only the "best in slot" item for each character binds, guess what the economy is going to mold into. Its going to amount to unbound BoE piece for unbound BoE piece, and everything else is going to be like the green pieces in D2, you'll drop a stash full of it in a noob game and they'll all get a boner while your laughing becuase you know its all worthless junk.
Besides, your missing the huge gripe of pvp'ers. We don't want to grind out the same pve content over and over just to be able to get to the part of the game we enjoy the most. I liked D2 because after I got established at the start of each ladder, I'd spend about 3 hours pk'ig/dueling for every hour I spent pve'ing. If that ratio was reversed and I was spending all my time doing the same pve content over and over, I probably would have played d2 for 10 months, not 10 years, especially since the only reason I had to pve at all anymore after already beating the game with multiple builds for each class was to acquire items to pvp with.
d2 pvp consists of multiple parts
grind - you gotta grind for some wealth and levels
trading - chances are everything you need isnt going to be self found, and youll find things of value you don't need, so knowing the economy to maximize your trades is a big factor
game knowledge - You need to know how to spec and gear your character. You also need to know how to fight your build vs other builds. The more builds you can play well yourself, the more you'll know how to fight against, so game knowledge and experience is a huge factor. If your not using the proper tactics at the appropriate time, you fail.
skill - twitch gaming, whatever you want to call it. D2 pvp is fast paced, and most fights between good characters don't last more then 2-4 hits. If you can't evade and aim well with your character your not going to do well in pvp.
Considering D2 is the king of all gank and run hack and slash rpgs, I guess this makes it unfair to remove the gank and run style pk. Don't change the diablo series, go play pokemon if you want a kiddy game where everyone holds hands and tickles eachother.
As far as BoE though, like it or hate it, its not going to actually solve the problem of the economy getting overloaded. Just because I can't trade my current item doesn't mean I have any reason to trade you for yours. The best BoE will do is add mindless pve grind and discourage experimentation with gear set ups.
Only two ways I can think of to keep a game economy fresh and prevent inflation...
1. D2 style periodic ladder resets. Obviously we're all familiar with this system and its pros and cons.
2. Permanent destruction of items. You need to create demand. All BoE does is slow supply. If your filling a bucket with water it doesn't matter if the hose is halfway on or full blast, the bucket will overflow at some point.
The thing you pve only players fail to recognize. PvP is harder then pve. I enjoyed the pve of the game, I played through various builds for each class at some point, but it gets to a point where you learn a lot about the game, and the generic ai of pve is just too easy, so a lot of people move on to pvp as the next challenge.
Besides considering pvp'ing requires good gear to actually be fun...how did I acquire this gear. It couldn't possible have been *gasp* I did some pve and trading. Maybe it helps to know the game well and be more efficient at pve and trading so you can achieve in a couple weeks what it takes others 6 months to do.
The bottum line is, every decent dueler I've ever played with could rape pve 890187978 different ways. However, I've met plenty of decent pve'ers that just flat out suck at pvp. So next time you accuse pvp'ers, who must be good at pve/trading to be good at dueling, of not wanting to play the game, why not take a step back, look at the whole picture, and you might just realize...you've only ever played half the game.
Agreed. Its so much more challenging and random playing against peple then playing against the same lame ai over and over. Every rpg'ish type game has the same pvm. You need to beat a certain boss/area, you figure out a strategy that beats it, you can now beat it 100% of the time. Good luck doing that in pvp.
Lololz couldnt agree more:)
The problem with this is then it kills pk. Everyone doing any type of pub level/mf runs is going to toggle it off.
I can understand some people don't want the type of gank and run that was allowable in D2, but guess what, plenty of people enjoyed the d2 anytime anywhere pk system(minus the tppk crap of course) enough that completely removing it is a rather stupid decision.
Why not just make 2 seperate servers? Instead of uswest and useast, have pk and nopk. Run them just like the current servers are. This leaves it at the best of both worlds for everyone. You want to pve, cool, have fun with that. Likewise, you shouldnt be able to drag all your characters you leveled/geared in the safe server to the pk server. If you want to participate in the gank and run goodness you need to be on both sides of the coin, the hunter and the hunted.
Thats what I'm wondering. The way I always operated each ladder reset in d2 was I'd pve like crazy until I had a good dueler set up, then I'd generally spend most of my time pk'ing random games and screwing around in duel games. I'd still mf and trade, but it was only to slowly build mor wealth to pimp out more duelers. Eventually when you get to the point where you have a couple characters niceley geared you don't really have a reason to pve anymore. Sure, I'd still spend some time pve'ing because it was amusing from time to time just to feel like a god pwning hordes of little trash monsters and the game always had a way of leaving you a little hope that your next drop will be the godly one...
But the beauty of the system was I got sick of a particular character, I could trade all his gear off and do something else. If I had 50 hours worth of mf/trade time over the course of a month focused on gearing up a character, it was awesome knowing that time wasnt wasted when I got sick of that alt. Now if all the high end gear is bound on equip, guess what, I'm gonna grind out one character, do some pvp'ing, and probably start a second and think "my god I don't want to have to be forced to do all this sucky pve grinding again just because forcing all my previously acquired godlies to now be worthless somehow makes the game funner."
That's probably also about the time I uninstall, take the disc out of my computer, scratch it lightly in a few places with a pin so it no longer works, and go back to gamestop all pissed off they sold me a bad cd and demand my money back.
You pretty much sum it up right here. I used to hate getting pk'd, but then I took the time to learn the game and became a decent player, and guess what, more often then not a PK'er joined my game they got denied. Its fun both ways unless you lose every time...but then again it is an rpg, people that took the time to grind/trade for awesome gear and took the time to learn the best tactics in various situations should have a combat advantage.
Let's just outlaw online games because its going to lead to people getting killed irl. While we're at it, lets outlaw that damn rap music too...
I'm forced to deal with morons in a civil manner all day in real life. Is it that awful that I find pk'ing people and listening to them cry an enjoyable way to unwind after a long day? Yeah your right, I don't go around being a dick to everyone in real life becuase I'd end up in a lot of trouble...but like you said its a game. Wheres the harm in being a bad guy in a game? The name of the game is Diablo...if I wanted to hold everyones hand I'd go play Squishy Fluffy Land.
If I'm not cheating with third party programs or intentionally exploiting known glitches to my advantage, then whatever I'm doing is completely fair. I join your game, I hostile you, I find you, I fight you...wheres the unfairness? If it leads to extreme amounts of e-rage that someone bests you in a game on occasion, then thats the perfect time to take a break and eat some ice cream or something.
It boggles me that blizzard can't look at D2 and say ok guys, whats some features this game had that others didnt? It seems like that would be the perfect basis for molding a sequel. Instead it seems like they are systematically tearing out the awesome from the Diablo series.
I had wet dreams for a month when they announced D3, but since some of the things they've been announcing I doubt I'll even waste 50 bucks on it. Respecs, binding gear, gold economy, neutered pk, bleh! Oh wait, they're spending a lot of time working on random quests... Is this a joke? I really don't care if I kill a red goblin 3 times, a blue one twice, a brown one twice...or just kill a red one 8 times. I haven't been such a long time fan of the diablo series because the pvm was fun...its all about the pvp/pk, various ways to interact with people either as a nice guy or a jerk, and the funnest trading system in any game I've ever played. Open ended bartering that actually allows for variation in trade is awesome, why kill it with a gold system where everything has a set value. No more being able to haggle someone to throw a little extra in, becuase everyones gonna know thats only worth 100 gold and thats all you get. Booorrrrrring.
I just get a funny feeling a lot of people on here have never even had a decked out character. It could take months to put together a sweet character on ladder, or years to put together an absolute perfect character on non-ladder. Once you get that character though, you can completely trade it for another set of equal value as quickly as you find someone else looking to swap to try something new out. It seems totally backwards to add in respecs because people hate grinding out a new alt, even though you can easily level to 80+ in a few hours or less, then turn around and add in binding gear, something thats just going to force you to grind more each time you want to experiment with something else.
I just don't see any purpose to a feature thats going to punish you for experimenting and limit trading. What if I were to make a fire sorc, and decide its not really my type of character, and change to ice sorc. Either its gonna suck horrible having to scrap a set of gear since I can't trade it. On the flipside, if it takes less time to regear a character in D3 then it would take to trade a gear set and level an alt in D2, then its still an awful feature. This system is destined to suck.
Blizzard pull your heads out of you arses please. I've been a D2 fan from the day it was released, up until the day you announced respecs. It seems like you just want to wussify d2 a little to gradually work all us long time d2 addicts into the true wussification that will manifest itself in D3. Nobody can mess anything up, everyone has to be friends, and if you want anything all you have to do is grind mindlessly enough to save up enough gold for...this is where D3 is headed. Meanwhile the D2 formula was you messed up you deal with it, everyone can be a jerk so find some good friends, and grind time can be slashed way down simply by the open trading system and learning how to work it.
Please stop screwing Diablo over blizzard, I might have to re-enter reality if you do. You can't allow this to happen, as my fiance might no longer consider a soj a valid engagement ring:(