I totally understand where you're coming from, but a few little misconceptions that I feel like i have to point out
1. Yes the skills are based on your weapon type, however, each class has different skills associated with those weapons. Like an engineer's are completely different from a theifs, and each class has a variety of weapons which actually comes out to a pretty massive amount of skill variance for each class. This actually synergizes really well with the fact that you can equip an off hand and switch with one single key, to access 10 or so more skills at one time, then key back to your other weapon, or simply quickswitch to duel weild mid combat which it allows you to freely do. (A lesson I think Blizzard should take note of, this kind of freedom is a good thing, it promotes actual strategy)
2. Each level in guild wars takes exactly the same amount of time as the previous one. I understand that you think it's going to take an extremely long time to level up to 80, but that's actually not really the case at all. I was able to casually level up to 20 or so on brand new characters in just a few hours doing World v. World pvp, not even grinding, that's not even trying to level up, I was able to do that as a max level character right from level 1, but it was actually contributing to my overall character level for me. I thought, hey this is amazing, you mean I don't have to do all that boring grinding, and the levels dont progressively take longer and longer each time? Nope.
Pretty damn innovative in my opinion.
3. Items have very little actual value. Gear in GW2 isn't like gear in diablo 3 or WoW, not really at all. As a matter of fact, the actual gear hunt is completely an aesthetic thing. It's for style and collecting rare LOOKING items, that actually don't give you an incredible game breaking advantage over other players who simply invested more time into the grind, such as every other MMO out on the market.
You can literally log in as a level 1, enter structured PvP or World v. World, and it automatically boosts your character to max level so you can enjoy playing PvP without feeling like, omg this guy just has better gear than me i'm getting destroyed. Instead, it becomes so much more of a skill based game, where player ability and intuition is the actual determining factor for success, rather than a random meaningless item you had to grind for weeks to get, or somebody simply bought with real money. That actually doesn't matter.
4. So the cash shop does provide boosts, in terms of exp, karma, and those things for your character through the use of gems. But these things really will have no bearing on whether a player succeeds in GW2 or not, because going back to point #3, gear actually doesnt' make a huge difference in the game, you automatically are given level 80 items for the duration of playing PvP, but then vanish once you come back to the real world. So if PvE is actually mostly just farming for items for fasion purposes, or neat flashy items that are rare and stylish but don't make you godlike just because you're carrying them, who really cares who buys what from the cash shop. It seriously doesn't make a difference, more power to them for supporting arenanet.
(also to clarify, gear gives you a slight advantage it's not non existant, but it's not going to be the huge determining factor of whether you live or die such as the case for diablo 3.) It's basically the perfect game for PvP enthusiasts and working class gamers who don't have 40+ hours a week to invest into an mmo, but are rewarded just for playing, you never really "fall behind".
Reading all this leaves me with the impression that it is truly devoid of what most fans of WoW want. If they are fans of WoW, they like to raid - get gear - participate in co-ordinated boss kills with friends in a raid - be it 10 man or 25 or back in the old 40 with tons of derps.
And it's all fine and dandy that GW2 is like it is, but if all you can get is visuals and no actual major impact of gear progression - How is it that you feel you do progress? You LOOK more bad-ass? Well.. Not to be rude, but that's kind of shallow. I want my character to feel more powerful - Stronger - More awesome - To feel the strategic need of choosing my stats (even if this is extremely limited in WoW - I prefer it much more in DoW II).
I think that point is valid if you consider gear as actual progression. For myself, and many other gamers, gear grinding just feels pointless, you get more gear to kill more monsters, for more gear? To me that seems shallow in all honesty. It seems like an endless waste of time.
The depth of GW2 is in the mechanics, and actual player skill. You do get better gear to help you, but it's really not the main determining factor. Learning harder and harder Boss mechanics, learning to use groups to take down bosses that require you to get to a certain level and use teamwork to defeat them is basically exactly the same as WoW, except the emphasis is placed on teamwork and coordination instead of being a gear check. (to reiterate - I'm not saying raiding has no skill, it obviously has a ton of it, what i'm saying is that the point of WoW seems to be an endless gear hunt that seemingly has no real point at all. If you find value in that, great! But I think that's a real turn off for most gamers in 2012, the facade of purpose has kind of been figured out and is no longer attractive)
The depth is still very much there, as i said you do get gear upgrades, and they are GOING to be required for progression in the PvE world, but gear isn't the point of the game. The point of the game is PvP, and World vs. World combat, dominating another server through the use of real talent and ability, the challenge of taking down another human is infinitely more rewarding than taking down a raid boss simply because you grinded the gear to do it.
I think the main difference is that GW2 is structured toward PvP, where as WoW and D3 are structured toward PvE, for PvP lovers, you are going to find a game like GW2 just so much more rewarding.
For example, there is a built in Tournament system, where a team of 5 players competes with other teams for an eventual reward to the champion, these run all day long (You get the tickets to compete in them through the Structured PvP system. There is obviously World v. World, and also Structured PvP which is more E-Sportish, which is infinitely entertaining, the same way Starcraft 2 or Counterstrike is, the PvP mechanics are crazy complex and deep.
Without a doubt Guild Wars 2. From playing the 3 beta weekends so far, I have to say it's just superior to diablo in every way :/
And I have never played WoW, but it seems like it has it's own problems and I wouldn't be thrilled paying a subscription fee for a mostly PvE game.
PvP is my main attraction, and GW2 is completely structured around PvP, while also having amazing PvE (most games are the other way around unfortunately, or having no PvP at all)
GW2 seems very limited, the idea of skills associating with weapons is neat but you don't get to choose the skills. There aren't like 20 sword skills and 20 axe skills to choose from for their respective weapon. It's "you are using a sword, your first 5 skill slots with be this and only this" which is aggravating.
This fact, while frustrating, was one I was actually willing to look past, trying to keep an open mind because I admire that they're trying something unique. My real issue with GW2 was when I was wondering why it seemed to take far longer to level from 5-6 or 6-7 than it should in a game that has 80 levels. Don't jump to conclusions, I'm going somewhere with this.
So the extremely low level leveling process seemed to be counter-intuitively taking longer than it should, all things considered (I've played many mmo's and the like). What could be the solution to this mystery? I kept exploring the beta anyway. Finally, while just trying to explore the different features I discovered, to my horror, that they implemented a "Pay To Win" system that they call something like "Black Lion Trading Post". The point can be argued that it's not a necessity to play the game but it's hard to believe that when it the leveling process actually feels like they hamstring your xp gains just so that you'll buy the bonus xp buffs with real money in a game you already paid for. There's even a buff that you buy with real money that increases your MF by 50%, like you would ever want to be without that buff. With things like this added, nobody can convince me that the game isn't "pay to win" like most quote unquote "free" games.
TLDR: I prepurchased gw2, during the beta I discovered they made it pay2win even though it's a game you have to purchase, immediately decided to get a refund(their customer service was spectacular though)
*edit - I thought it might be noteworthy to add that I absolutely loved GW1 and wanted with all my heart to enjoy GW2 but...eww
I totally understand where you're coming from, but a few little misconceptions that I feel like i have to point out
1. Yes the skills are based on your weapon type, however, each class has different skills associated with those weapons. Like an engineer's are completely different from a theifs, and each class has a variety of weapons which actually comes out to a pretty massive amount of skill variance for each class. This actually synergizes really well with the fact that you can equip an off hand and switch with one single key, to access 10 or so more skills at one time, then key back to your other weapon, or simply quickswitch to duel weild mid combat which it allows you to freely do. (A lesson I think Blizzard should take note of, this kind of freedom is a good thing, it promotes actual strategy)
2. Each level in guild wars takes exactly the same amount of time as the previous one. I understand that you think it's going to take an extremely long time to level up to 80, but that's actually not really the case at all. I was able to casually level up to 20 or so on brand new characters in just a few hours doing World v. World pvp, not even grinding, that's not even trying to level up, I was able to do that as a max level character right from level 1, but it was actually contributing to my overall character level for me. I thought, hey this is amazing, you mean I don't have to do all that boring grinding, and the levels dont progressively take longer and longer each time? Nope.
Pretty damn innovative in my opinion.
3. Items have very little actual value. Gear in GW2 isn't like gear in diablo 3 or WoW, not really at all. As a matter of fact, the actual gear hunt is completely an aesthetic thing. It's for style and collecting rare LOOKING items, that actually don't give you an incredible game breaking advantage over other players who simply invested more time into the grind, such as every other MMO out on the market.
You can literally log in as a level 1, enter structured PvP or World v. World, and it automatically boosts your character to max level so you can enjoy playing PvP without feeling like, omg this guy just has better gear than me i'm getting destroyed. Instead, it becomes so much more of a skill based game, where player ability and intuition is the actual determining factor for success, rather than a random meaningless item you had to grind for weeks to get, or somebody simply bought with real money. That actually doesn't matter.
4. So the cash shop does provide boosts, in terms of exp, karma, and those things for your character through the use of gems. But these things really will have no bearing on whether a player succeeds in GW2 or not, because going back to point #3, gear actually doesnt' make a huge difference in the game, you automatically are given level 80 items for the duration of playing PvP, but then vanish once you come back to the real world. So if PvE is actually mostly just farming for items for fasion purposes, or neat flashy items that are rare and stylish but don't make you godlike just because you're carrying them, who really cares who buys what from the cash shop. It seriously doesn't make a difference, more power to them for supporting arenanet.
(also to clarify, gear gives you a slight advantage it's not non existant, but it's not going to be the huge determining factor of whether you live or die such as the case for diablo 3.) It's basically the perfect game for PvP enthusiasts and working class gamers who don't have 40+ hours a week to invest into an mmo, but are rewarded just for playing, you never really "fall behind".
Without a doubt Guild Wars 2. From playing the 3 beta weekends so far, I have to say it's just superior to diablo in every way :/
And I have never played WoW, but it seems like it has it's own problems and I wouldn't be thrilled paying a subscription fee for a mostly PvE game.
PvP is my main attraction, and GW2 is completely structured around PvP, while also having amazing PvE (most games are the other way around unfortunately, or having no PvP at all)
This is the most well constructed criticism of what is actually wrong with the game that i've found. I agree with most of the points made, and I think if we can identify a lot of the problems the game has, then we can work from there in order to try and fix it.
So I was unsure about putting these up on the AH before PvP comes out, but I figure these would be of some better use to the higher calibre players on diablo fans.
They're definitely niche...but let me know if you guys are interested or just post offers if you are!
And that's why this game won't be for you. Get your competitive PvP fix somewhere else (as you apparently already do, so I don't see the problem).
Maka, see this is something that many of us are very angry about. THIS casual only mentality is different from what diablo is supposed to be.
Competitiveness is very important, I don't care if you have casual options to, that's all well and great, you should have the ability to PvP casually if you want to, but that doens't mean you need to FORCE players not to compete with each other and be able to monitor it with a ranking system.
It really is a fundamental part of what drives PvP and gives it that passion to improve, and creates that depth that is so badly needed. Casual is all fine and well, but for lots of players, we need that competitiveness, and you shouldn't be on the side of denying them that.
This really boils down to a simple truth; There are two very different ways of approaching the game, and the community is pretty split on this point.
- One side only views the game as PvE only, with very limited, casual, pvp. And it seems directly opposed to anything that even resembles an attempt to understand the PvP community's wishes.
- And obviously the other side feels that the game needs to have a very deep and fundamental PvP focus, and most likely comes from a rich tradition in many many games (including both Diablo I and Diablo II) that allowed open world PvP, and a PvP focused end game.
Not trying to instigate another argument, but for a great many of us, in Diablo I and II, PvP was our main and only focus, PvE was simply a means to an end (as the OP eloquently stated) and we farmed our items through simply to improve our success in PvP.
This was an amazing feature of diablo and we only wish it to be expanded upon and adopted lovingly by blizzard. And I feel like the removal of open world PvP, and the refusal to seperately balance PvP from PvE is an attack on our Diablo culture as a whole.
Please try and understand, we know you don't want PvE messed up, but don't use that as an excuse to attack our interests as well
That really isn't saying anything, PvP WAS endgame, and the biggest part of it when d2 was actually a prevalent game still. Most of the PvP community has simply moved onto other games while we wait for diablo 3 to come out.
You can find most of them in starcraft 2, dota 2, counterstrike 1.6, quakelive etc, pretty much any game thats competitive, but we will return, in force. Don't you worry
Carebear PvE'ers generally are the ones that troll these forums, which is why there are so many more of their voices heard, most PvP'ers couldn't care less what the PvE community wants, but I figured i'd at least take the time to try and talk some sense into you guys
Some of you are beyond saving unfortunately, but a few of you seem to be rational.
So, you're attempting to explain why PvP is important by insulting the people you want to sway...awesome idea.
If the majority of PvP players have left D2 and the majority of PvE players have left D2...then shouldn't the fact that people still prefer PvE over PvP there say something? Blizzard themselves wants D3 focused on PvE. The vocal majority wants D3 focused on PvE. How can you rationalize Blizzard focusing on PvP when the majority of input they get says to focus on PvE?
I've not been trolling, I've been actually explaining the methods, reasons, and such as to why Blizzard made the choice they did. The ones that seem more like they are tolling are those like yourself that seemingly ignore the reasons and shout that Blizzard is bad if they don't make eSport PvP.
If you don't want the PvP that Blizzard plans on offering...and you don't care to enjoy the game purely for PvE...don't buy the game. I know that I for one will be glad to not having to play with people complaining about PvP constantly as I enjoy the game for what it is and has always been, PvE.
That's where you and I disagree though, I think you are incorrect in believing that the majority wants what you do. They don't .
It's a seriously small little minority of you that are so paranoid of Esports.
I disagree, I don't think the "majority" has that opinion at all. Infact, I think it's just an insanely vocal and ignorant minority of you that won't just shut up and let the game actually be good.
Actually, you're wrong. The majority of PvE players wouldn't have a reason to even post here because they are getting what they want, nice PvE and casual PvP. Those of us being vocal like discussions and wish to try explain WHY eSport PvP isn't practical. Even in Diablo 2 right now, elite PvP is the minority. This is year and years after the majority of old PvE focused players have left the game. That should tell you that the PvP community is VERY small compared to the PvE. The reason the PvP community is being so vocal now is they are upset that they aren't getting what they want, despite the game never being intended to be that way.
That really isn't saying anything, PvP WAS endgame, and the biggest part of it when d2 was actually a prevalent game still. Most of the PvP community has simply moved onto other games while we wait for diablo 3 to come out.
You can find most of them in starcraft 2, dota 2, counterstrike 1.6, quakelive etc, pretty much any game thats competitive, but we will return, in force. Don't you worry
Carebear PvE'ers generally are the ones that troll these forums, which is why there are so many more of their voices heard, most PvP'ers couldn't care less what the PvE community wants, but I figured i'd at least take the time to try and talk some sense into you guys
Some of you are beyond saving unfortunately, but a few of you seem to be rational.
Couldn't agree more. It's truly unfortunate that all of these carebear nerds, that only PvE, are making it so difficult for this game to be great.
This game has such great potential, but it seems like a big chunk of the community are so determined to hold it back.
If you don't PvP, go play world of warcraft or league of legends, or whatever other casual game you enjoy, and leave the discussion to the hardcore community.
The ESport mentality has turned every game it has endorsed, from a decent game, into an amazing game. That is the power of competitive gaming. It is a blessing, not a curse.
Thanks
Signed by PvP enthusiasts everywhere
Have you read ANYTHING that we've been posting? Heck...how about reading your OWN post...You yourself say that the community wants the game to be focused on PvE instead of PvP. Why would Blizzard focus on PvP when the majority of their community wants them to focus on PvE?
The Diablo series has never been focused on PvP and won't be now either. Deal with it or don't buy the game.
I disagree, I don't think the "majority" has that opinion at all. Infact, I think it's just an insanely vocal and ignorant minority of you that won't just shut up and let the game actually be good.
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Basically sums it up, this game is an embarassment. It's a slap in the face to every fan, blizzard how far you have fallen.
I think that point is valid if you consider gear as actual progression. For myself, and many other gamers, gear grinding just feels pointless, you get more gear to kill more monsters, for more gear? To me that seems shallow in all honesty. It seems like an endless waste of time.
The depth of GW2 is in the mechanics, and actual player skill. You do get better gear to help you, but it's really not the main determining factor. Learning harder and harder Boss mechanics, learning to use groups to take down bosses that require you to get to a certain level and use teamwork to defeat them is basically exactly the same as WoW, except the emphasis is placed on teamwork and coordination instead of being a gear check. (to reiterate - I'm not saying raiding has no skill, it obviously has a ton of it, what i'm saying is that the point of WoW seems to be an endless gear hunt that seemingly has no real point at all. If you find value in that, great! But I think that's a real turn off for most gamers in 2012, the facade of purpose has kind of been figured out and is no longer attractive)
The depth is still very much there, as i said you do get gear upgrades, and they are GOING to be required for progression in the PvE world, but gear isn't the point of the game. The point of the game is PvP, and World vs. World combat, dominating another server through the use of real talent and ability, the challenge of taking down another human is infinitely more rewarding than taking down a raid boss simply because you grinded the gear to do it.
I think the main difference is that GW2 is structured toward PvP, where as WoW and D3 are structured toward PvE, for PvP lovers, you are going to find a game like GW2 just so much more rewarding.
For example, there is a built in Tournament system, where a team of 5 players competes with other teams for an eventual reward to the champion, these run all day long (You get the tickets to compete in them through the Structured PvP system. There is obviously World v. World, and also Structured PvP which is more E-Sportish, which is infinitely entertaining, the same way Starcraft 2 or Counterstrike is, the PvP mechanics are crazy complex and deep.
I totally understand where you're coming from, but a few little misconceptions that I feel like i have to point out
1. Yes the skills are based on your weapon type, however, each class has different skills associated with those weapons. Like an engineer's are completely different from a theifs, and each class has a variety of weapons which actually comes out to a pretty massive amount of skill variance for each class. This actually synergizes really well with the fact that you can equip an off hand and switch with one single key, to access 10 or so more skills at one time, then key back to your other weapon, or simply quickswitch to duel weild mid combat which it allows you to freely do. (A lesson I think Blizzard should take note of, this kind of freedom is a good thing, it promotes actual strategy)
2. Each level in guild wars takes exactly the same amount of time as the previous one. I understand that you think it's going to take an extremely long time to level up to 80, but that's actually not really the case at all. I was able to casually level up to 20 or so on brand new characters in just a few hours doing World v. World pvp, not even grinding, that's not even trying to level up, I was able to do that as a max level character right from level 1, but it was actually contributing to my overall character level for me. I thought, hey this is amazing, you mean I don't have to do all that boring grinding, and the levels dont progressively take longer and longer each time? Nope.
Pretty damn innovative in my opinion.
3. Items have very little actual value. Gear in GW2 isn't like gear in diablo 3 or WoW, not really at all. As a matter of fact, the actual gear hunt is completely an aesthetic thing. It's for style and collecting rare LOOKING items, that actually don't give you an incredible game breaking advantage over other players who simply invested more time into the grind, such as every other MMO out on the market.
You can literally log in as a level 1, enter structured PvP or World v. World, and it automatically boosts your character to max level so you can enjoy playing PvP without feeling like, omg this guy just has better gear than me i'm getting destroyed. Instead, it becomes so much more of a skill based game, where player ability and intuition is the actual determining factor for success, rather than a random meaningless item you had to grind for weeks to get, or somebody simply bought with real money. That actually doesn't matter.
4. So the cash shop does provide boosts, in terms of exp, karma, and those things for your character through the use of gems. But these things really will have no bearing on whether a player succeeds in GW2 or not, because going back to point #3, gear actually doesnt' make a huge difference in the game, you automatically are given level 80 items for the duration of playing PvP, but then vanish once you come back to the real world. So if PvE is actually mostly just farming for items for fasion purposes, or neat flashy items that are rare and stylish but don't make you godlike just because you're carrying them, who really cares who buys what from the cash shop. It seriously doesn't make a difference, more power to them for supporting arenanet.
(also to clarify, gear gives you a slight advantage it's not non existant, but it's not going to be the huge determining factor of whether you live or die such as the case for diablo 3.) It's basically the perfect game for PvP enthusiasts and working class gamers who don't have 40+ hours a week to invest into an mmo, but are rewarded just for playing, you never really "fall behind".
And I have never played WoW, but it seems like it has it's own problems and I wouldn't be thrilled paying a subscription fee for a mostly PvE game.
PvP is my main attraction, and GW2 is completely structured around PvP, while also having amazing PvE (most games are the other way around unfortunately, or having no PvP at all)
This is the most well constructed criticism of what is actually wrong with the game that i've found. I agree with most of the points made, and I think if we can identify a lot of the problems the game has, then we can work from there in order to try and fix it.
Looking for offers !
cam#1976
They're definitely niche...but let me know if you guys are interested or just post offers if you are!
This.
Maka, see this is something that many of us are very angry about. THIS casual only mentality is different from what diablo is supposed to be.
Competitiveness is very important, I don't care if you have casual options to, that's all well and great, you should have the ability to PvP casually if you want to, but that doens't mean you need to FORCE players not to compete with each other and be able to monitor it with a ranking system.
It really is a fundamental part of what drives PvP and gives it that passion to improve, and creates that depth that is so badly needed. Casual is all fine and well, but for lots of players, we need that competitiveness, and you shouldn't be on the side of denying them that.
- One side only views the game as PvE only, with very limited, casual, pvp. And it seems directly opposed to anything that even resembles an attempt to understand the PvP community's wishes.
- And obviously the other side feels that the game needs to have a very deep and fundamental PvP focus, and most likely comes from a rich tradition in many many games (including both Diablo I and Diablo II) that allowed open world PvP, and a PvP focused end game.
Not trying to instigate another argument, but for a great many of us, in Diablo I and II, PvP was our main and only focus, PvE was simply a means to an end (as the OP eloquently stated) and we farmed our items through simply to improve our success in PvP.
This was an amazing feature of diablo and we only wish it to be expanded upon and adopted lovingly by blizzard. And I feel like the removal of open world PvP, and the refusal to seperately balance PvP from PvE is an attack on our Diablo culture as a whole.
Please try and understand, we know you don't want PvE messed up, but don't use that as an excuse to attack our interests as well
That's where you and I disagree though, I think you are incorrect in believing that the majority wants what you do. They don't .
It's a seriously small little minority of you that are so paranoid of Esports.
That really isn't saying anything, PvP WAS endgame, and the biggest part of it when d2 was actually a prevalent game still. Most of the PvP community has simply moved onto other games while we wait for diablo 3 to come out.
You can find most of them in starcraft 2, dota 2, counterstrike 1.6, quakelive etc, pretty much any game thats competitive, but we will return, in force. Don't you worry
Carebear PvE'ers generally are the ones that troll these forums, which is why there are so many more of their voices heard, most PvP'ers couldn't care less what the PvE community wants, but I figured i'd at least take the time to try and talk some sense into you guys
Some of you are beyond saving unfortunately, but a few of you seem to be rational.
I disagree, I don't think the "majority" has that opinion at all. Infact, I think it's just an insanely vocal and ignorant minority of you that won't just shut up and let the game actually be good.