I agree scyber dragon with you completely, that almost all complaints against blizz changes are QQ'ing, but I have one logical argument against skill point system removal, and I will present it without anger or distaste, and hopefully if you guys do get to talk to people in charge at blizz, you can at least pass this idea on, since I will never be able to.
A guy on the forum came up with the idea of keeping the system how it is, with active skills and passive skills able to be switched out when you go to town, but then at a certain level, say like 35 or 40, you start giving skill points to further improve upon whichever skills/elements/passives you like. So I still get to choose 6 active skills and 3 passives (or w/e it was), but i get skill points past that level to improve on the ones I really like, or change them in some way.
reason being, blizz says they want people to be versatile and not have to respec while playing through the game. IF they do it this way, by level 35 you already have all the skills, and have had them long enough to experiment extensively, and decide what you want. It wouldnt be until later you would even have 'skill points'. You wouldnt even have to worry about them till later.
As for spending hours planning stuff out, past that point they could choose to still include a respec option for a minimal amount of gold for those skill points. Everyone can be happy, no being punished permanently and having to start over, yet still the feeling of customization, and you have plenty of time to think about what you like.
I am a little disappointed in their decision, because I feel most of their reasoning to remove it completely is just so people don't keep respec'ing as they level up, and this fixes it. ANother big arugment they gave was that people just max 6 anyways, and this would solve that by affecting skills in some other way/shape/form. Blizzard is my favorite game company of all time, but I think they were a little hasty making this decision without really thinking of some alternative to solve the issues they had with a skill system.
I agree scyber dragon with you completely, that almost all complaints against blizz changes are QQ'ing, but I have one logical argument against skill point system removal, and I will present it without anger or distaste, and hopefully if you guys do get to talk to people in charge at blizz, you can at least pass this idea on, since I will never be able to.
A guy on the forum came up with the idea of keeping the system how it is, with active skills and passive skills able to be switched out when you go to town, but then at a certain level, say like 35 or 40, you start giving skill points to further improve upon whichever skills/elements/passives you like. So I still get to choose 6 active skills and 3 passives (or w/e it was), but i get skill points past that level to improve on the ones I really like, or change them in some way.
reason being, blizz says they want people to be versatile and not have to respec while playing through the game. IF they do it this way, by level 35 you already have all the skills, and have had them long enough to experiment extensively, and decide what you want. It wouldnt be until later you would even have 'skill points'. You wouldn
Past that they could choose to still include a respec option for gold for those skill points.
I am a little disappointed in their decision, because I feel most of their reasoning to remove it completely is just so people don't keep respec'ing as they level up, and this fixes it. ANother big arugment they gave was that people just max 6 anyways, and this would solve that too by giving you a different facet of cusomization. removing it completely just makes it feel less RPG like...
I agree scyber dragon with you completely, that almost all complaints against blizz changes are QQ'ing, but I have one logical argument against skill point system removal, and I will present it without anger or distaste, and hopefully if you guys do get to talk to people in charge at blizz, you can at least pass this idea on, since I will never be able to.
A guy on the forum came up with the idea of keeping the system how it is, but then at a certain level, say like 35 or 40, you start giving skill points to further improve upon whichever skills/elements/passives you like. So I still get to choose 6 active skills and 3 passives (or w/e it was), but i get skill points past that level.
reason being, blizz says they want people to be versatile and not have to respec while playing through the game. IF they do it this way, by level 35 you already have all the skills, and have had them long enough to experiment extensively, and decide what you want. It wouldnt be until later you would even have 'skill points'.
Past that they could choose to still include a respec option for gold for those skill points.
I am a little disappointed in their decision, because I feel most of their reasoning to remove it completely is just so people don't keep respec'ing as they level up, and this fixes it. ANother big arugment they gave was that people just max 6 anyways, and this would solve that too by giving you a different facet of cusomization. removing it completely just makes it feel less RPG like...
Anything that can prevent bots and cheating is welcome news. If online only FOR SURE means no bots, then I'm fine with it. Magic find bots would destroy the economy by over saturating it, making selling items get you get worth shit.
And I agree with you on your point with ruins being customization, but I would like to see more customization than that, considering in my mind that is still just gear customization, and not character customization. When you say you gain a skill/spell every other level you ll have to specify. I doubt you get a new spell/skill every other level, and even if you do, everyone gets the same thing anyways, which brings me back to the point that everyone is the same.
Now for runes adding 'specs' and builds... I do agree, but as I said before, that is still gear customization really. ANd why not still have customization in your gear and your build? IMO it boils down to people being afraid to commit to a build at all, even if it just takes gold to respec, and at the cost of making everyone feel the exact same (again, except gear, but then again, eventually everyone will have at least the 5 or 6 variations of each ruin (not including the random attribute part)), so this means I can go to town and pop in different ruins to cater to each little situation anytime I want, which doesn't sound fun to me. Sounds like everyone is the exact same.
I think you underestimate (or I overestimate ^^) how big effect a rune has on a spell. It can change it completely. I think we'll be getting new spells more often than we did in Diablo II (where you got like 6 new choices when you got to lvl 18) now they will most likely be spread evenly over the levels. Say there's 20 active spells and 10 passive and you've gained all spells at lvl 35 you'd almost get one new spell every level.
Also you won't be able to have 6 active skills until you are level 30 or something. You start out with only 2 slots and gain more over the levels and get your first passive slot at lvl 10. This too makes for harder choices and you are more likely to differ from other players in the same class (which I guess is the core part of customization)
I hope i do underestimate the runes on spells. And I hope you're right with the new spell every couple levels.
With this said, I'd still like to see skill points in addition to ruins, since ruins just seem like gear, and not really toon customization. As for not having 6 until level 30, sure that's cool, but still people can go switch stuff out whenever they want, so you're not really adding 'customization' just game variety. Everyone still has the same stuff, they just get to choose when to and when not to use it.
I agree, they should at least make it a long term goal to eventually balance pvp, and then make it competitive.
Two reasons. 1. even if every class had one or two pvp builds that were balanced, and then the other builds were clearly for pvm, then it would be enough to make a balanced pvp game. 2. To take an idea from the diablo casts, just set people up with standard gear that must be used in the ranked arena, or several choices of gear that are balanced. Say for ranked pvp, you must pick among several chest pieces, helms, etc that are pre-approved and balanced. This would eliminate the problem Jay seems to think would arise from RMAH AND ranked pvp. People can still buy awesome gear for unranked pvp and for pvm, but in ranked, its all about sheer skill.
Again, I know its not their priority to balance pvp, especially with this 2011 release date, and I as much as anyone want the game sooner than later, but this could be a longer term goal for them. They may be scared to try and balance it now, but c'mon blizz, I know you guys can balance it eventually.
he problem with the removing skills is it takes away any sense of permanence from a character, thus taking out a feeling of customization, and taking out the RPG element of the game. There is a certain reward in leveling and putting a skill point into something. Even if you respec later, and it costs an increasing gold value as it does in WOW, it would make your character seem more customizable. And the following 2 arguments make all their reasons for removing them invalid.
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In conclusion, taking out skill points takes out real customization. I think people should stop crying about respec's and just be okay with paying for them, knowing it adds an RPG element to the game. If blizzard doesn't intend for you to repspec everytime you get a better skill, just make all of the skills good/useful in some way or another. Blizzard is my all time favorite game company, and I have to say they really let me down with this one. They turned D3 from a fast-paced action-RPG to a fast-paced action game instead. There is really no feeling of reward to leveling, and we might as well all start at lvl 60.
In WoW you gain spells when you level up, this will be similar. I see the runes as the "specc". The difference between them is as far as I've seen quite big. Which makes it "speccs". I replayed D2 a bit now and I think it's rather boring with the skill tree since you do put all skills in a single ability and use only that. Leveling fire sorc = Firebolt everything untill you get lvl 12 when you switch and fireball everything ... not very fun imo.
I'll try to compare WoW - D2 - D3 * = How you gain spells # = customize spells/"speccs", @ = effect on gameplay
Diablo II
* New spells avaliable in skill tree at levels 1 - 6 - 12 - 18 - 24 - 30
# For best performance (and leveling experience) you put most of the skillpoints in same spell (or it's synergy)
@ Means in most speccs you have one main skill, one or two buff spells and a secondary skill when main skill is not effective.
WoW
* New spells / stronger spells as you level up
# Talents boost certain spells, you must choose one specc - very little customization though
@ You can use the spells that fits your build but there's almost always a "rotation" or "priority list" that is the best way
Diablo III (with the info I've gathered)
* New spells / stronger spells as you level up
# Runes boost your spells and you can choose from 6 (5 runes + original effect) different effect for every skill = alot of different variations (how viable they are remains to be seen, hopefully less useless than some skills in D2)
@ You can choose to use whichever of the spells that is avaliable BUT you can only have 1 rune per skill. Which hopefully gives a varied gameplay and many different viable builds.
I'd say WoW has the least customization, Diablo II the most stoic gameplay and Diablo III seems to have the most options/variations in both gameplay and character building
You pick 1/6 rune effects per skill and 6/20 skills to use meaning you have to discard 5/6 rune effects and 14/20 skills.
As for leveling not being rewarding why would gaining a new skill every other level be less rewarding? You still get something for gaining a level. Imo they've only moved the customization from skill points to runes
I'm also pretty sure there's tons of RPGs out there without skillpoints. (Most Final Fantasy games or the first three Zelda games comes to mind)
It feels less rewarding because everyone gets the same stuff anyways, so there is really no choices to be made.
And I agree with you on your point with ruins being customization, but I would like to see more customization than that, considering in my mind that is still just gear customization, and not character customization. When you say you gain a skill/spell every other level you ll have to specify. I doubt you get a new spell/skill every other level, and even if you do, everyone gets the same thing anyways, which brings me back to the point that everyone is the same.
Now for runes adding 'specs' and builds... I do agree, but as I said before, that is still gear customization really. ANd why not still have customization in your gear and your build? IMO it boils down to people being afraid to commit to a build at all, even if it just takes gold to respec, and at the cost of making everyone feel the exact same (again, except gear, but then again, eventually everyone will have at least the 5 or 6 variations of each ruin (not including the random attribute part)), so this means I can go to town and pop in different ruins to cater to each little situation anytime I want, which doesn't sound fun to me. Sounds like everyone is the exact same.
Finally for your Zelda and FF rebuttle, your absolutely right, but these RPGs are outdated IMO. Even the new final fantasys have skill trees, and Zelda, again IMO, would be even better with some sort of character customization. If you could spec into bow more or sword more, it would just add replayability.
he problem with the removing skills is it takes away any sense of permanence from a character, thus taking out a feeling of customization, and taking out the RPG element of the game. There is a certain reward in leveling and putting a skill point into something. Even if you respec later, and it costs an increasing gold value as it does in WOW, it would make your character seem more customizable. And the following 2 arguments make all their reasons for removing them invalid.
I think the best argument to refute their argument of "well people just respec as soon as a better skill is available", is to make it so all of the skills are equally good/viable, or to make it so the use of several offensive skills at once is how to attain optimal damage output.
Now the argument that Sixen and blizzard has made that people just max 6 skills with 10 skills points each (or whatever they make the maximum). I would say this may usually be true for offensive skills, but for passive skills it does not have to be the case, and was not the case in D2. Take the amazon for example. In her passive tree, people may have put 10 in dodge and 10 in avoid, or they make choose to max one and ignore the other, depending on their build. Now with the case of D3, this may translate into say putting 5 into one passive, and 5 into another (assuming 10 is max), or something else like 7, 3, 3. Some may choose, for example, to not put as many skills into one of their offensive skills in their rotation (assuming CD's), and instead be more defensive and invest in passive skills.
In conclusion, taking out skill points takes out real customization. I think people should stop crying about respec's and just be okay with paying for them, knowing it adds an RPG element to the game. If blizzard doesn't intend for you to repspec everytime you get a better skill, just make all of the skills good/useful in some way or another. Blizzard is my all time favorite game company, and I have to say they really let me down with this one. They turned D3 from a fast-paced action-RPG to a fast-paced action game instead. There is really no feeling of reward to leveling, and we might as well all start at lvl 60.
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So there is literally no attribute points (which we already knew) and now no skill points or trait points. Everyone gets everything, and just gets to decide when to use it and when not to use it.... kind of like you're load out in call of duty. There is literally no customization at all in an rpg fasion. Leveling is almost pointless except to increase your load out.
I'd rather just have respecs and then experiment with what I like. So what if you have to save skill points or respec a few extra times.
They go from 98 billion ways to customize to 0 just like that.
I think you got it wrong there. You still have to chose your skills and traits they are just not point-oriented anymore, you can only have 6 active skills and 3 traits but there are more. Exactly how many I don't know the point is that you still have to choose what you want to use at that given time. This only makes the characters more flexible since you can switch out skills and traits on the fly without going back to town and respecing.
You're right, now that I re-read the post. Thanks for the correction. Not that it makes me feel better since the new system still lacks customization.
The thing I hate about games nowadays, and I expected blizzard to be different, is that they cater to dumb people way too much. Now they decide to take out skills AND traits. So everyone's character gets to be the exact F*(#(ing same. This is basically not an rpg anymore, every character is the same in every way except gear. This is almost a dealbreaker for me. I literally might not even buy this bullshit game now. They dumb it down so much that the only customization you get now is in gear. Even WOW has more customization than that. I am SEVERELY disappointed in these announcements. Seriously they are making a game for idiots. Let people figure out what is good, don't just hand it to them. I am sooooo pissed right now I am almost shaking.
And for the whole "well people just respec into arcane orb as soon as they get it instead of arcane missle" I don't want to hear it, because there is an easy solution to that. Make them equally good but different. Fireball in D2 was a very early skill, but it had its ups and downs over hydra and meteor sorcs. It was a lvl 18 skill but still viable end game, if not preferable for some build types.
All blizzard wants to do is make a mindless action game that requires no thinking and no character building, so that more dumbasses can play it. Every barb, demon hunter, monk, witch doctor, and wizard will be the EXACT same toon, with only gear distinguishing them. That does not sound fun to me.
There is no logic to there decision except to cater to dumb people. They ruined my favorite game franchise of all time.
And if you are Sixen or Force reading this, I have listened to everyone of your podcasts, though I just finally made an account. So I would really like to hear from you guys as to why there is no more char. customization except in gear. I am a huge fan of your podcasts, and listen every week (even though now the game is gonna be terrible, I will still continue to listen)
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A guy on the forum came up with the idea of keeping the system how it is, with active skills and passive skills able to be switched out when you go to town, but then at a certain level, say like 35 or 40, you start giving skill points to further improve upon whichever skills/elements/passives you like. So I still get to choose 6 active skills and 3 passives (or w/e it was), but i get skill points past that level to improve on the ones I really like, or change them in some way.
reason being, blizz says they want people to be versatile and not have to respec while playing through the game. IF they do it this way, by level 35 you already have all the skills, and have had them long enough to experiment extensively, and decide what you want. It wouldnt be until later you would even have 'skill points'. You wouldnt even have to worry about them till later.
As for spending hours planning stuff out, past that point they could choose to still include a respec option for a minimal amount of gold for those skill points. Everyone can be happy, no being punished permanently and having to start over, yet still the feeling of customization, and you have plenty of time to think about what you like.
I am a little disappointed in their decision, because I feel most of their reasoning to remove it completely is just so people don't keep respec'ing as they level up, and this fixes it. ANother big arugment they gave was that people just max 6 anyways, and this would solve that by affecting skills in some other way/shape/form. Blizzard is my favorite game company of all time, but I think they were a little hasty making this decision without really thinking of some alternative to solve the issues they had with a skill system.
A guy on the forum came up with the idea of keeping the system how it is, with active skills and passive skills able to be switched out when you go to town, but then at a certain level, say like 35 or 40, you start giving skill points to further improve upon whichever skills/elements/passives you like. So I still get to choose 6 active skills and 3 passives (or w/e it was), but i get skill points past that level to improve on the ones I really like, or change them in some way.
reason being, blizz says they want people to be versatile and not have to respec while playing through the game. IF they do it this way, by level 35 you already have all the skills, and have had them long enough to experiment extensively, and decide what you want. It wouldnt be until later you would even have 'skill points'. You wouldn
Past that they could choose to still include a respec option for gold for those skill points.
I am a little disappointed in their decision, because I feel most of their reasoning to remove it completely is just so people don't keep respec'ing as they level up, and this fixes it. ANother big arugment they gave was that people just max 6 anyways, and this would solve that too by giving you a different facet of cusomization. removing it completely just makes it feel less RPG like...
A guy on the forum came up with the idea of keeping the system how it is, but then at a certain level, say like 35 or 40, you start giving skill points to further improve upon whichever skills/elements/passives you like. So I still get to choose 6 active skills and 3 passives (or w/e it was), but i get skill points past that level.
reason being, blizz says they want people to be versatile and not have to respec while playing through the game. IF they do it this way, by level 35 you already have all the skills, and have had them long enough to experiment extensively, and decide what you want. It wouldnt be until later you would even have 'skill points'.
Past that they could choose to still include a respec option for gold for those skill points.
I am a little disappointed in their decision, because I feel most of their reasoning to remove it completely is just so people don't keep respec'ing as they level up, and this fixes it. ANother big arugment they gave was that people just max 6 anyways, and this would solve that too by giving you a different facet of cusomization. removing it completely just makes it feel less RPG like...
With this said, I'd still like to see skill points in addition to ruins, since ruins just seem like gear, and not really toon customization. As for not having 6 until level 30, sure that's cool, but still people can go switch stuff out whenever they want, so you're not really adding 'customization' just game variety. Everyone still has the same stuff, they just get to choose when to and when not to use it.
Two reasons. 1. even if every class had one or two pvp builds that were balanced, and then the other builds were clearly for pvm, then it would be enough to make a balanced pvp game. 2. To take an idea from the diablo casts, just set people up with standard gear that must be used in the ranked arena, or several choices of gear that are balanced. Say for ranked pvp, you must pick among several chest pieces, helms, etc that are pre-approved and balanced. This would eliminate the problem Jay seems to think would arise from RMAH AND ranked pvp. People can still buy awesome gear for unranked pvp and for pvm, but in ranked, its all about sheer skill.
Again, I know its not their priority to balance pvp, especially with this 2011 release date, and I as much as anyone want the game sooner than later, but this could be a longer term goal for them. They may be scared to try and balance it now, but c'mon blizz, I know you guys can balance it eventually.
It feels less rewarding because everyone gets the same stuff anyways, so there is really no choices to be made.
And I agree with you on your point with ruins being customization, but I would like to see more customization than that, considering in my mind that is still just gear customization, and not character customization. When you say you gain a skill/spell every other level you ll have to specify. I doubt you get a new spell/skill every other level, and even if you do, everyone gets the same thing anyways, which brings me back to the point that everyone is the same.
Now for runes adding 'specs' and builds... I do agree, but as I said before, that is still gear customization really. ANd why not still have customization in your gear and your build? IMO it boils down to people being afraid to commit to a build at all, even if it just takes gold to respec, and at the cost of making everyone feel the exact same (again, except gear, but then again, eventually everyone will have at least the 5 or 6 variations of each ruin (not including the random attribute part)), so this means I can go to town and pop in different ruins to cater to each little situation anytime I want, which doesn't sound fun to me. Sounds like everyone is the exact same.
Finally for your Zelda and FF rebuttle, your absolutely right, but these RPGs are outdated IMO. Even the new final fantasys have skill trees, and Zelda, again IMO, would be even better with some sort of character customization. If you could spec into bow more or sword more, it would just add replayability.
I think the best argument to refute their argument of "well people just respec as soon as a better skill is available", is to make it so all of the skills are equally good/viable, or to make it so the use of several offensive skills at once is how to attain optimal damage output.
Now the argument that Sixen and blizzard has made that people just max 6 skills with 10 skills points each (or whatever they make the maximum). I would say this may usually be true for offensive skills, but for passive skills it does not have to be the case, and was not the case in D2. Take the amazon for example. In her passive tree, people may have put 10 in dodge and 10 in avoid, or they make choose to max one and ignore the other, depending on their build. Now with the case of D3, this may translate into say putting 5 into one passive, and 5 into another (assuming 10 is max), or something else like 7, 3, 3. Some may choose, for example, to not put as many skills into one of their offensive skills in their rotation (assuming CD's), and instead be more defensive and invest in passive skills.
In conclusion, taking out skill points takes out real customization. I think people should stop crying about respec's and just be okay with paying for them, knowing it adds an RPG element to the game. If blizzard doesn't intend for you to repspec everytime you get a better skill, just make all of the skills good/useful in some way or another. Blizzard is my all time favorite game company, and I have to say they really let me down with this one. They turned D3 from a fast-paced action-RPG to a fast-paced action game instead. There is really no feeling of reward to leveling, and we might as well all start at lvl 60.
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I'd rather just have respecs and then experiment with what I like. So what if you have to save skill points or respec a few extra times.
And for the whole "well people just respec into arcane orb as soon as they get it instead of arcane missle" I don't want to hear it, because there is an easy solution to that. Make them equally good but different. Fireball in D2 was a very early skill, but it had its ups and downs over hydra and meteor sorcs. It was a lvl 18 skill but still viable end game, if not preferable for some build types.
All blizzard wants to do is make a mindless action game that requires no thinking and no character building, so that more dumbasses can play it. Every barb, demon hunter, monk, witch doctor, and wizard will be the EXACT same toon, with only gear distinguishing them. That does not sound fun to me.
There is no logic to there decision except to cater to dumb people. They ruined my favorite game franchise of all time.
And if you are Sixen or Force reading this, I have listened to everyone of your podcasts, though I just finally made an account. So I would really like to hear from you guys as to why there is no more char. customization except in gear. I am a huge fan of your podcasts, and listen every week (even though now the game is gonna be terrible, I will still continue to listen)