We're not talking about killing small amounts of elites in a 2 day period of time. In say a month, a year; the amount of drops you receive will get closer and closer to drop rate posted by Blizzard. That's why you use averages to figure out where to farm. It gives you the best idea of what should have the best rates of ilvl 63 items.
Some things you aren't factoring in your equation:
Base 75% MF for everyone (5 NV). So you need 175% MF on gear just to double the base drop rate. (1.75 -> 3.50)
Guaranteed rare from every pack (at 5 NV) which mostly ignores MF. (Not convinced legendaries necessarily have appropriate value with so many of them being bad.)
DPS lost using MF gear (since we are looking at HP ratios)
I'm not sure that this won't be a problem, but the math is significantly more complicated.
Oh, I simplified the math a ton. I pretty much made mf a linear function(and it's probably not). But the core argument I'm trying to make is that once you're farming in Act 3 with less magic find than in Act 1, your potential drop rates will be lower. And I did a simplistic analysis of the guaranteed rare in some post somewhere in this thread. And the constant kill rates was assumed since the magic find value decreases as you proceed to harder acts. For example, you could farm Act 1 in 25k dps, 200 mf gear and Act 2 in 50k dps, 100 mf gear. This is ignoring intangible things like the space between elites and natural monster abilities.
Keep in mind that, whatever option they go with, it won't be 100% a nerf. They specifically stated that they would provide compensation for any MF changes implemented, likely in the form of additional MF per NV stack. As we don't know the numbers, it's a bit premature to be mathing it out.
The math is just a loose example of the effects of nerfing gear swapping without buffing drop rates. I know that if I didn't do any of that, I would get even more 'stop whining about the nerf' than I already am.
Magic find is not working as intended. When it is no longer viable to swap out gear, magic find will be working as intended.
By that logic ALL emergent gameplay EVER should be destroyed. Which would be an idiotic stance to take. Might want to revise your original stance rofl.
To the person 2 slots above: Any change that reduces my magic find in any way is a nerf. No matter what the fuck Blizzard says. If I end up with less MF at any time than I would have otherwise, it was nerfed.
Magic find is not working as intended. When it is no longer viable to swap out gear, magic find will be working as intended.
By that logic ALL emergent gameplay EVER should be destroyed. Which would be an idiotic stance to take. Might want to revise your original stance rofl.
To the person 2 slots above: Any change that reduces my magic find in any way is a nerf. No matter what the fuck Blizzard says. If I end up with less MF at any time than I would have otherwise, it was nerfed.
It's a fix to an exploitative way of playing. Deal with the fact that exploits get fixed instead of whining that Blizzard is nerfing you. The bottom line is that MF is not being changed one bit for people who are using it the way it was intended to be used. It's only being changed for people who are trying to cheat the system.
Furthermore, the only "emergent gameplay" that should be destroyed are the ones which are obviously exploitative. You know... death-zerging champion packs, MF gear swapping at 5%, things which clearly go beyond how the game was designed to be played. It doesn't take a damned PhD to figure out that MF gear swapping was never actually intended, nor did it take a PhD to figure out that the death penalty was too lenient which caused people to laugh at repair bills and throw corpses at mobs.
When you do things which exploit the game you should expect them to be fixed.
Oh, I simplified the math a ton. I pretty much made mf a linear function(and it's probably not). But the core argument I'm trying to make is that once you're farming in Act 3 with less magic find than in Act 1, your potential drop rates will be lower. And I did a simplistic analysis of the guaranteed rare in some post somewhere in this thread. And the constant kill rates was assumed since the magic find value decreases as you proceed to harder acts. For example, you could farm Act 1 in 25k dps, 200 mf gear and Act 2 in 50k dps, 100 mf gear. This is ignoring intangible things like the space between elites and natural monster abilities.
Maybe I don't understand this, but shouldn't your drop rates be lower with a lower MF? You get a higher chance at ilvl 63 items to drop in the later acts, but those ilvl 63s are all items, whites inciuded. MF is what pushes those whites to blues and yellows. So wouldn't it follow if you have less MF than you get less blues and rares? But isn't that how the game is suppose to be played? As you can sustain more than the DPS you need you can change stats for MF.
I'm not talking about farming Act 1 with 200 mf vs farming Act 1 with 0 mf. It's about farming Act 1 with 200 mf while farming Act 3 with 0 mf. Since Act 3 requires much higher stats to clear than Act 1, the amount of magic find on your gear will be greatly reduced. Once you're farming Act 3 with less magic find than in Act 1, Act 3 becomes a less effective farming spot. Thus rendering Act 2/3/4 farming less efficient unless a person uses no magic find or has the maximum magic find.
I'm not talking about farming Act 1 with 200 mf vs farming Act 1 with 0 mf. It's about farming Act 1 with 200 mf while farming Act 3 with 0 mf. Since Act 3 requires much higher stats to clear than Act 1, the amount of magic find on your gear will be greatly reduced. Once you're farming Act 3 with less magic find than in Act 1, Act 3 becomes a less effective farming spot. Thus rendering Act 2/3/4 farming less efficient unless a person uses no magic find or has the maximum magic find.
I really fail to understand how that is actually a problem. That's how "gearing up" is supposed to work. If you don't have enough stats to farm Act 3 with 200 MF and you find that Act 1 with 200 MF > Act 3 with 50 MF well, you farm Act 1 and you get better gear so that Act 3 becomes farmable with higher MF. That's the whole damned point of Inferno, right? It's a big old progression curve that's solved by better gear.
... unless you're actually trying to prove that even with the best gear out there you can never farm Act 3 efficiently with high MF, which would be a very different story... or that the gear necessary to make Act 3 > Act 1 can't actually be obtained (ie: the threshold for that gear is far higher than what the game provides). But both of those are VERY different from what you're saying so far.
I never understood gear swapping or even MF in the first place. I have a monk who has 240% MF in his normal gear and I farm Act 1 with him. It takes him a lot longer because I had to gimp stats like vit/resists/damage in order to afford MF gear that also has dex and vit. So he kills slow with only 14k damage and still dies sometimes.
My new wizard has zero MF but has 800 resists, 25k Damage, and 27k health. Far better than my monk so i just mow through Act 1 almost twice as fast as he can with no chance of dieieng. I notice no difference in the drops I get with 0 MF compared to the drops he gets with 240 MF. If anything I have noticed Im actually getting more 62s/63s but maybe cause I kill faster.
I'm not talking about farming Act 1 with 200 mf vs farming Act 1 with 0 mf. It's about farming Act 1 with 200 mf while farming Act 3 with 0 mf. Since Act 3 requires much higher stats to clear than Act 1, the amount of magic find on your gear will be greatly reduced. Once you're farming Act 3 with less magic find than in Act 1, Act 3 becomes a less effective farming spot. Thus rendering Act 2/3/4 farming less efficient unless a person uses no magic find or has the maximum magic find.
I don't see the problem with this. This is how MF is suppose to be. Of course your going to get less gear if you have less MF.
I'm not talking about farming Act 1 with 200 mf vs farming Act 1 with 0 mf. It's about farming Act 1 with 200 mf while farming Act 3 with 0 mf. Since Act 3 requires much higher stats to clear than Act 1, the amount of magic find on your gear will be greatly reduced. Once you're farming Act 3 with less magic find than in Act 1, Act 3 becomes a less effective farming spot. Thus rendering Act 2/3/4 farming less efficient unless a person uses no magic find or has the maximum magic find.
I don't see the problem with this. This is how MF is suppose to be. Of course your going to get less gear if you have less MF.
Actually, you'll get more i61+ rares farming act 1 with 0 MF than farming act 3 with 0 MF (and high dps / surv).
The fact you can get away with stacking a ton of MF in act 1 is jut gravy on top of the biscuit.
The problem with this is that act 4 should provide the highest chance of getting the best items, not act 1.
I'm not talking about farming Act 1 with 200 mf vs farming Act 1 with 0 mf. It's about farming Act 1 with 200 mf while farming Act 3 with 0 mf. Since Act 3 requires much higher stats to clear than Act 1, the amount of magic find on your gear will be greatly reduced. Once you're farming Act 3 with less magic find than in Act 1, Act 3 becomes a less effective farming spot. Thus rendering Act 2/3/4 farming less efficient unless a person uses no magic find or has the maximum magic find.
I don't see the problem with this. This is how MF is suppose to be. Of course your going to get less gear if you have less MF.
Actually, you'll get more i61+ rares farming act 1 with 0 MF than farming act 3 with 0 MF (and high dps / surv).
The fact you can get away with stacking a ton of MF in act 1 is jut gravy on top of the biscuit.
The problem with this is that act 4 should provide the highest chance of getting the best items, not act 1.
Exactly. Right now, the game punishes you for not being able to use magic find in Act 3. Instead, I think the game should reward the player for using that kind of gear. If you're not using a high amount of magic find in Act 3, then you're being punished by receiving less drops than you would in Act 1. It should be that you get equal amounts of gear in Act 3 with little/no magic find and then get rewarded for being able to stack magic find on top of those survival stats.
Magic find is not working as intended. When it is no longer viable to swap out gear, magic find will be working as intended.
So the fact that Blizz has stated that they knew this was going to be a way for people to have better drop rates means that it isn't working as intended? The only reason they are threatening to change it is because people complain that it is too much of an effort to swap gear, so they don't want to do it. I swap out a full set of gear into MF gear and it works perfectly fine for me. Yeah sometimes you fuck up and die, but in the end you get to make the decision. I'm sorry that you feel like because YOU aren't capable of doing something well, that means that it needs to be changed. Stop complaining about an optional feature in the game and either do it or don't do it.
Do you think I'm crying because I can't get a Ferrari right now because I can't afford it, so because of that I need the world to make Ferraris not as good of cars so my G35 can keep up with it? No because you either learn how to afford the Ferrari or you don't get it. The world isn't going to change it's habits because you aren't good at something. Maybe the NBA should be an equal opportunity employer. Regardless of whether you're good at basketball or not you should have an equal chance to get in over the guy that worked since he was five years old to be one of the best players in the world; they only worked on maximizing a learned skill to be more efficient at what they do.
If you want to have the best chance at drops you learn to swap gear. It is that simple. It's either learn to do it and be able to have better drops or don't bother doing it and have the consequences. It is truly a very simple concept. There is no reason what-so-ever to complain about something that is an OPTION. It isn't NECESSARY to get great drops, it only helps to enhance the likelihood of getting the better drops.
I'm not talking about farming Act 1 with 200 mf vs farming Act 1 with 0 mf. It's about farming Act 1 with 200 mf while farming Act 3 with 0 mf. Since Act 3 requires much higher stats to clear than Act 1, the amount of magic find on your gear will be greatly reduced. Once you're farming Act 3 with less magic find than in Act 1, Act 3 becomes a less effective farming spot. Thus rendering Act 2/3/4 farming less efficient unless a person uses no magic find or has the maximum magic find.
I don't see the problem with this. This is how MF is suppose to be. Of course your going to get less gear if you have less MF.
Actually, you'll get more i61+ rares farming act 1 with 0 MF than farming act 3 with 0 MF (and high dps / surv).
The fact you can get away with stacking a ton of MF in act 1 is jut gravy on top of the biscuit.
The problem with this is that act 4 should provide the highest chance of getting the best items, not act 1.
Exactly. Right now, the game punishes you for not being able to use magic find in Act 3. Instead, I think the game should reward the player for using that kind of gear. If you're not using a high amount of magic find in Act 3, then you're being punished by receiving less drops than you would in Act 1. It should be that you get equal amounts of gear in Act 3 with little/no magic find and then get rewarded for being able to stack magic find on top of those survival stats.
You can pretty much see my previous post. You're complaining because you want a3 farming to be easier? It isn't going to be easier because it is a place that is further along in the game. You earn your way there. It's the entire point of the game to get better gear so you can progress in a more timely fashion. The entire game is based on efficiency. A 25 minute a1 cemetery, plains, leoric manor, agony, warden, butcher run is more EFFICIENT than a 60 minute a3 bridge, tower, cydaea/azmo run. You may get the chance for higher level of drops and you might even get 3 ilvl 63 from a3, but in a1 you'll get 1 ilvl63 and 12 ilvl 61 with 4 ilvl 62 (all random numbers) which means you've got a higher chance of getting better gear. Maybe not an upgrade for you, but an upgrade for somebody, which in turn, makes it so you can afford a better piece of gear for yourself.
I'm not talking about farming Act 1 with 200 mf vs farming Act 1 with 0 mf. It's about farming Act 1 with 200 mf while farming Act 3 with 0 mf. Since Act 3 requires much higher stats to clear than Act 1, the amount of magic find on your gear will be greatly reduced. Once you're farming Act 3 with less magic find than in Act 1, Act 3 becomes a less effective farming spot. Thus rendering Act 2/3/4 farming less efficient unless a person uses no magic find or has the maximum magic find.
I don't see the problem with this. This is how MF is suppose to be. Of course your going to get less gear if you have less MF.
Actually, you'll get more i61+ rares farming act 1 with 0 MF than farming act 3 with 0 MF (and high dps / surv).
The fact you can get away with stacking a ton of MF in act 1 is jut gravy on top of the biscuit.
The problem with this is that act 4 should provide the highest chance of getting the best items, not act 1.
Exactly. Right now, the game punishes you for not being able to use magic find in Act 3. Instead, I think the game should reward the player for using that kind of gear. If you're not using a high amount of magic find in Act 3, then you're being punished by receiving less drops than you would in Act 1. It should be that you get equal amounts of gear in Act 3 with little/no magic find and then get rewarded for being able to stack magic find on top of those survival stats.
I guess I see a philosophical difference from you on MF. I don't see a problem with you being punished for not being able to use as much MF in later acts. That is the trade off. You have to balance your gear around being able to fight and have MF. If that means you can't have as much MF in act 3 as you cound in act 1, I don't see how you should expect to get as much loot. The only thing you should get from later acts is a greater chance that the rares you do get are higher ilvl.
If you don't expect to get as much loot from Act 3 because of having lower magic find, then what's the point of having Act 2/3/4 Inferno? With your philosophy, Act 1 is and will be the end-all farming spot until you get to 446 magic find(or whatever the max value is) on top of your dps suit.
I dont expect to get as much loot for having lower MF. If I have equivalent I do expect to get as much loot from all the acts. I expect to have a higher chance at better loot in the later acts. If I have the same MF find in act 1 and act 3 then I believe with averages I get more ilvl 63 gear.
If you have the same magic find in both acts, you'll get roughly the same amount of ilvl 63 items assuming you kill elites 3-4x faster in Act 1. This is why nerfing gear-swapping without altering drop rates will hurt Act 2/3/4 farming viability. It's unrealistic to be farming with the same amount of magic find in Act 1 as in Act 3. If you can farm Act 3 with 200 magic find, then you should easily be able to farm Act 1 with 300 magic find.
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Base 75% MF for everyone (5 NV). So you need 175% MF on gear just to double the base drop rate. (1.75 -> 3.50)
Guaranteed rare from every pack (at 5 NV) which mostly ignores MF. (Not convinced legendaries necessarily have appropriate value with so many of them being bad.)
DPS lost using MF gear (since we are looking at HP ratios)
I'm not sure that this won't be a problem, but the math is significantly more complicated.
By that logic ALL emergent gameplay EVER should be destroyed. Which would be an idiotic stance to take. Might want to revise your original stance rofl.
To the person 2 slots above: Any change that reduces my magic find in any way is a nerf. No matter what the fuck Blizzard says. If I end up with less MF at any time than I would have otherwise, it was nerfed.
It's a fix to an exploitative way of playing. Deal with the fact that exploits get fixed instead of whining that Blizzard is nerfing you. The bottom line is that MF is not being changed one bit for people who are using it the way it was intended to be used. It's only being changed for people who are trying to cheat the system.
Furthermore, the only "emergent gameplay" that should be destroyed are the ones which are obviously exploitative. You know... death-zerging champion packs, MF gear swapping at 5%, things which clearly go beyond how the game was designed to be played. It doesn't take a damned PhD to figure out that MF gear swapping was never actually intended, nor did it take a PhD to figure out that the death penalty was too lenient which caused people to laugh at repair bills and throw corpses at mobs.
When you do things which exploit the game you should expect them to be fixed.
Maybe I don't understand this, but shouldn't your drop rates be lower with a lower MF? You get a higher chance at ilvl 63 items to drop in the later acts, but those ilvl 63s are all items, whites inciuded. MF is what pushes those whites to blues and yellows. So wouldn't it follow if you have less MF than you get less blues and rares? But isn't that how the game is suppose to be played? As you can sustain more than the DPS you need you can change stats for MF.
I really fail to understand how that is actually a problem. That's how "gearing up" is supposed to work. If you don't have enough stats to farm Act 3 with 200 MF and you find that Act 1 with 200 MF > Act 3 with 50 MF well, you farm Act 1 and you get better gear so that Act 3 becomes farmable with higher MF. That's the whole damned point of Inferno, right? It's a big old progression curve that's solved by better gear.
... unless you're actually trying to prove that even with the best gear out there you can never farm Act 3 efficiently with high MF, which would be a very different story... or that the gear necessary to make Act 3 > Act 1 can't actually be obtained (ie: the threshold for that gear is far higher than what the game provides). But both of those are VERY different from what you're saying so far.
My new wizard has zero MF but has 800 resists, 25k Damage, and 27k health. Far better than my monk so i just mow through Act 1 almost twice as fast as he can with no chance of dieieng. I notice no difference in the drops I get with 0 MF compared to the drops he gets with 240 MF. If anything I have noticed Im actually getting more 62s/63s but maybe cause I kill faster.
I don't see the problem with this. This is how MF is suppose to be. Of course your going to get less gear if you have less MF.
Actually, you'll get more i61+ rares farming act 1 with 0 MF than farming act 3 with 0 MF (and high dps / surv).
The fact you can get away with stacking a ton of MF in act 1 is jut gravy on top of the biscuit.
The problem with this is that act 4 should provide the highest chance of getting the best items, not act 1.
Exactly. Right now, the game punishes you for not being able to use magic find in Act 3. Instead, I think the game should reward the player for using that kind of gear. If you're not using a high amount of magic find in Act 3, then you're being punished by receiving less drops than you would in Act 1. It should be that you get equal amounts of gear in Act 3 with little/no magic find and then get rewarded for being able to stack magic find on top of those survival stats.
So the fact that Blizz has stated that they knew this was going to be a way for people to have better drop rates means that it isn't working as intended? The only reason they are threatening to change it is because people complain that it is too much of an effort to swap gear, so they don't want to do it. I swap out a full set of gear into MF gear and it works perfectly fine for me. Yeah sometimes you fuck up and die, but in the end you get to make the decision. I'm sorry that you feel like because YOU aren't capable of doing something well, that means that it needs to be changed. Stop complaining about an optional feature in the game and either do it or don't do it.
Do you think I'm crying because I can't get a Ferrari right now because I can't afford it, so because of that I need the world to make Ferraris not as good of cars so my G35 can keep up with it? No because you either learn how to afford the Ferrari or you don't get it. The world isn't going to change it's habits because you aren't good at something. Maybe the NBA should be an equal opportunity employer. Regardless of whether you're good at basketball or not you should have an equal chance to get in over the guy that worked since he was five years old to be one of the best players in the world; they only worked on maximizing a learned skill to be more efficient at what they do.
If you want to have the best chance at drops you learn to swap gear. It is that simple. It's either learn to do it and be able to have better drops or don't bother doing it and have the consequences. It is truly a very simple concept. There is no reason what-so-ever to complain about something that is an OPTION. It isn't NECESSARY to get great drops, it only helps to enhance the likelihood of getting the better drops.
Noobie#1931
You can pretty much see my previous post. You're complaining because you want a3 farming to be easier? It isn't going to be easier because it is a place that is further along in the game. You earn your way there. It's the entire point of the game to get better gear so you can progress in a more timely fashion. The entire game is based on efficiency. A 25 minute a1 cemetery, plains, leoric manor, agony, warden, butcher run is more EFFICIENT than a 60 minute a3 bridge, tower, cydaea/azmo run. You may get the chance for higher level of drops and you might even get 3 ilvl 63 from a3, but in a1 you'll get 1 ilvl63 and 12 ilvl 61 with 4 ilvl 62 (all random numbers) which means you've got a higher chance of getting better gear. Maybe not an upgrade for you, but an upgrade for somebody, which in turn, makes it so you can afford a better piece of gear for yourself.
Noobie#1931
I guess I see a philosophical difference from you on MF. I don't see a problem with you being punished for not being able to use as much MF in later acts. That is the trade off. You have to balance your gear around being able to fight and have MF. If that means you can't have as much MF in act 3 as you cound in act 1, I don't see how you should expect to get as much loot. The only thing you should get from later acts is a greater chance that the rares you do get are higher ilvl.