Buffs-Debuffs skill list (and best possible group for Inferno) on april, 13th 2012

  • #1
    Hi,
    As I think inferno will be a hell (haha) of a difficulty level, I just told myself "hey would be great to list every debuff than can soften enemies or buff that boosts allies damage or survivability".

    It appears quite clear to me that if every class picks up 2 skills for buffing friends + debuffing monsters, the overall benefit will greatly outperform the single target buffs we can get from our own individual skills

    While reading the "monk slow aura + DH boost damage on slowed targets", I also wondered "what about 4 monks with all different auras (mantras) ? wouldn't they be benefiting from each other quite a lot more than other classes ?".

    Then I finally wondered "hey... what if there are more powerful effects from other classes ? I should learn from them (since I only learned monk for it's the class I'll play).

    I'll be covering debuffs and buffs for each class and then consider how they can help in reversing the inferno dilemma. (especially debuffs since they indirectly buff the whole group).
    I'll be ignoring reduced movement speed since basically every skill can do that if runed accordingly + it doesn't reduce damage taken or increase damage dealt overall (only some niche skills).

    Some questions are underlined, meaning I couln't find an answer on whether the debuff did benefit party members as well. If you know the answer, I'll edit to correct.

    Eventually, this post will help each class to know the key points in buffing/debuffing of every other class without having to go through shitload of skill/runes combination (I did it for you), potentially making you much more comfortable in composing the ubber group !

    1]Debuffs
    Monk
    Crippling Wave : slow enemies attack speed by 20% - 3 sec - frontal aoe - generate 6 spirit - no CD
    + Concussion : enemies also deal 20% less damage
    + Breaking wave : enemies take +10% damage (party included ???)
    Lashing Tail Kick + Scorpion Sting : 50%chance stun - 1.5 sec - aoe - costs 30 spirit - no CD
    Wave of Light + Blinding Light : crit stuns - 1.5 sec - frontal line - costs 75 spirit - no CD
    Blinding Flash : blinds (elite monsters have +30% miss chance) (do they see after being hit ?) - 3 sec - aoe - costs 10 spirit - 15 sec CD
    + Blinded and Confused : adds 25% chance to turn ally
    + Searing Light : increased to 60% miss chance for elite
    Breath of Heaven + Penitent Flame : fear - 1.5 sec - 12 yard aoe - costs 25 spirit - 15 sec CD
    Dashing Strike + Flying Side Kick : 60% chance stun - 1.5 sec - multiple targets in line - costs 25 spirit - no CD
    Exploding Palm + The Flesh is Weak : enemy take +12% damage (party included ???) - 3 sec - single target - costs 40 spirit - no CD
    Cyclone Strike + Sunburst : 35% chance fear - 1.5 sec - 24 yard aoe - costs 50 spirit - no CD
    Seven-Sided Strike + Pandemonium : 25% chance stun by each strike - 7 sec - single target (kind of) - costs 50 spirit - 30 sec CD
    Mantra of Conviction (see buff section for all mantras/auras) : +12% monster damage taken - 3 min - 20 yard aoe - costs 50 spirit - no CD

    Wizard
    Arcane Torrent + Arcane Mines : 30% slow attack speed - 3 sec - target aoe - costs 20 arcane power - no CD
    Frost Nova + Bone Chill : +15% damage taken - 3 sec - aoe - no cost - 12 sec CD
    Slow Time : 20% slow attack speed - 8 sec - aoe - no cost - 20 sec CD
    + Time Wrap : also add 20% more damage taken (Party included ???)
    Wave of Force + Impactful Wave : stun - 2 sec - frontal aoe - costs 25 arcane power - 15 sec CD
    Blizzard + Frozen Solid : 20% chance freeze - 3 sec - target aoe - costs 45 arcane power - no CD


    Witch Doctor
    Poison Dart + Snake to the Face : 30% chance stun - 1.5 sec - single target - costs 10 mana - no CD
    Plague of Toads + Addling Toads : 15% chance confuse - 4sec - aoe - costs 34 mana - no CD
    Horrify : fear - 4sec - 12 yard aoe - costs 37 mana - 20 sec CD
    + Phobia : up to 6 sec
    + Face of Death : up to 24 yard
    Hex : hex + 10% damage taken (party included ???) - 12 sec - single target - costs 49 mana - 15 sec CD
    + Jinx : up to 20% damage taken
    Mass Confusion : wander + turn all - 12 sec - aoe - costs 74 mana - 60 sec CD
    + Mass Hysteria : stun 6 enemies for 3 sec
    + Paranoia : +20% damage taken (party included ???) by affected enemies

    Demon Hunter
    Grenades + Stun Grenades : 25% chance stun - 2 sec - target aoe - generate resource - no CD
    Impale + Impact : 65% chance stun - 1.5 sec - single target - costs 25 hatred - no CD
    Elemental arrow + Lightning Bolts : piercing arrow that stuns on crit - 1.5 sec - multiple targets possible - costs 10 hatred
    Vault + Rattling Roll : jump with 100% stun on landing - 1.5 sec - aoe - costs 6 disc - no CD
    Marked for death : enemy takes 12% more damage (party included ???) - 30 sec - single target - costs 3 disc - no CD
    + Valley of Death : make it a target aoe - 15sec - 12 yard target aoe
    Fan of Knives + Fan of Daggers : 65% chance stun - 2 sec - aoe - costs 20 hatred - 10 sec CD
    Cluster Arrow + Dazzling Arrow : 55% chance stun - 2 sec - target aoe - costs 50 hatred - no CD
    Rain of vengeance + Flying strikes : 100% chance stun - 2 sec - target aoe - no cost - 30 sec CD

    Barbarian
    Bash + Clobber : 35% chance stun - 1.5 sec - single target - generate resource - no CD
    Frenzy + Smite : 20% chance stun - 1.5 sec - single target - generate resource - no CD
    Hammer of the Ancients + Thunderstrike : 100% stun when enemy killed by skill (killing blow only ?) - 3sec - 10yard aoe - costs 20 - no CD
    Seismic Slam + Stagger : 70% chance stun - 1.5 sec - frontal aoe - costs 30 - no CD
    Ground Stomp : 100% stun - 3 sec - 12yard aoe - costs 15 - 12sec CD
    Leap + Death from Above : 100% stun - 3sec - 8yard aoe - costs 15 - 10sec CD
    Furious Charge + Bull Rush : 100% stun on critical strike - 2.5 sec - single target - costs 15 - 10sec CD
    Weapon Throw + Throwing Hammer : 75% chance stun - 2 sec - single target costs 10 - no CD
    Weapon Throw + Stupefy : 20% chance to turn ally an enemy - 6sec - single target - costs 10 - no CD
    Threatening Shout : enemy damage reduced by 20% - 15 sec - 25 yard aoe - costs 15 - 15sec CD
    + Falter : also reduce their attack speed by 15% for 5 sec
    + Terrify : 35% chance to flee for 2.5 sec


    2]Buffs

    Monk
    Serenity + Tranquility : absorb all damage for party + remove and immune to CC - 2 sec - aoe - costs 10 spirit - 20 sec CD
    Inner Sanctuary : prevent enemy coming in ground circle - 5 sec - aoe - costs 30 spirit - 20 sec CD
    + Safe Heaven : Heals party inside circle for 1550hps
    + Circle of Protection : reduce damage taken by party inside circle by 35%
    auras (1 active at a time maximum) :
    Mantra of Evasion : +15% dodge for party - 3 min - costs 50 spirit - no CD
    Mantra of Retribution : 40% back damage from melee attacks - 3 min - costs 50 spirit - no CD
    Mantra of healing : 310 hps to party - 3 min - costs 50 spirit - no CD
    Mantra of Conviction (normally in debuff, but grouped here) : +12% monster damage taken - 3 min - 20 yard aoe - costs 50 spirit - no CD

    Wizard
    Slow Time + Stretch Time : 10% attack speed inside bubble - 8 sec - target aoe - no cost - 20 sec CD

    Witch Doctor
    Big Bad Voodoo : increases movement and attack speed (Party included ???) by 20% - 20sec - aoe - no cost - 120 sec CD
    + Jungle Drums : up to 30sec
    + Slam Dance : also increases damage done by ally by 30% (Party included ???)
    + Ghost Transe : heals 5% hps (Party included ?)

    Demon Hunter
    Sentry + Guardian Turret : reduce damage taken by party by 15% - 30 sec - costs 10 disc - no CD

    Barbarian
    Ignore Pain + Mob Rule : reduce damage taken by party by 65% - 5sec duration - 30sec CD
    War Cry : increase party armor for 20% - 60 sec duration - 50yard aoe - costs resource - 15 sec CD
    + Hardened Wrath : party armor up by 40%
    + Veteran's warning : also gain 15% dodge


    3]How to fight in inferno ?
    I won't discuss group composition, but it seems to me a few things can do the trick :
    - stun negates 100% of a monster threat
    - melee classes should be oriented toward "chance to stun" skills to protect the whole group from taking damage/being CC, since it's tied to spammable resource generation skills and won't hurt DPS that much, while enabling great survivability
    - DH stun grenades seems decent too (spammable)
    - WD's Big Bad Voodoo seems to provide the most powerful group buffs (Slam Dance) if Party enabled
    - Barb War Cry seems a must
    - Monk Crippling Wave + Concussion seems an absolute must to me
    - Wizard's Arcane Torrent + Arcane Mine looks like the best debuff to help melee classes
    - each class can take a costy aoe stun and rotate
    - any class should privilege aoe skill that place debuff (attack speed, damage taken) on their target to maximize benefit from each other


    Now, It's up to you guys to give advices on which skill, or group comp, or group skill strategy or whatever seems to be the way to go in inferno.
  • #2
    Wow this is great information. I've been looking for a list like this. Thanks.
  • #3
    Good post, thanks for compiling all this, was a really good read man
  • #4
    1) Any ability that says "enemies take..." is a party ability.

    2) We don't know how these forms of damage amplification (Monster Debuffs) will work exactly. It's not clear how they stack, but one would assume that they're additive going by how other things in the game work.

    3) Snares will probably just take the most powerful one and overwrite all the rest.

    4) There are probably not diminishing returns for stuns/fears/etc but they will be much less effective against bosses/rares/champions or whatever. This means that if you had the right 4 builds, you could probably keep regular enemies stunned almost permanently (for example, 4 DHs with Grenades: Stun Grenades). I could be wrong on this, but I thought it said somewhere that CC on monsters is not affected by diminishing returns. That being said, I'm only talking about monsters the same level as you. In Inferno, monsters will be 60+ so it's possible that CC is reduced across the board against 60+ monsters. Also, monsters may have abilities that help them escape CC that we're not aware of.

    5) Monster Debuffs that reduce damage will most likely stack (multiplicatively of course, based on monster damage rather than damage reduced), but there may be a limit of some sort or a penalty against 60+ monsters, etc.

    6) Last I'll say that I think the best abilities are ones that are AoE with low cooldowns.
  • #5
    Your list is missing a few passives:

    Wizard
    Conflagration - fire damage causes a +10% damage taken debuff x 3sec.
    Paralysis - lightning damage causes a 5% chance to stun for 3sec.
    Temporal Flux - Arcane damage snares by 30% for 3sec.

    WD
    Bad Medicine - Poison damage causes a -20% damage dealt debuff x3sec.

    Monk
    Resolve - Damage you deal reduces enemy damage by 25% for 2.5sec.
    Guiding Light - When you heal another player, you and the other player both gain +16% damage for 15sec.

    DH
    Thrill of the Hunt - Every 10sec your next bow attack will immobilize for 3sec.
    Numbing Traps - Traps cause -25% damage debuff for 3sec.

    Monk Resolve and WD Bad Medicine are actually stronger debuffs than the majority of the active skills in game. If multiple -%damage debuffs stack (There's no guarantee they will - they could be like Snares where only the strongest one applies) then having a monk and WD with those passives seems almost mandatory to Inferno difficulty.

    ============
    That said, we could have something like:
    Monk:
    Crippling Wave + Concussion = 30% snare, -20% enemy attackspeed, -20% enemy damage
    Cyclone Strike + Soothing Breeze = AoE damage that heals the party
    Breath of Heaven + Blazing Wrath = AoE heal + 15% party damage
    Serenity + Tranquility = AoE invulnerability that breaks all snares and CCs
    Mantra of Evasion + Hard Target = +15% party dodge, +20% party armor
    (Any 6th skill)

    Resolve = Passive -25% enemy damage debuff
    Guiding Light = +16% party damage after heal
    (Any 3rd passive)

    WD:
    Poison Darts + Snake to the Face = Stun proc for singletarget DPS
    Acid Cloud + Acid Rain = Large AoE poison damage for poison debuff.
    Soul Harvest + Languish = AoE 60% snare and self-buff
    Zombie Dogs + Rabid Dogs = more poison debuffs
    Hex + Jinx = hexed targets take +20% damage
    Big Bad Voodoo + Ghost Trance = +20% party attack/movespeed, AoE party heal

    Bad Medicine = Passive -20% enemy damage debuff
    (any 2nd and 3rd passives)

    Wizard
    Magic Missile + Charged Blast = Single target damage, applies 30% snare passive
    Disintegrate + Convergence = Large-AoE arcane damage, applies 30% snare passive
    Frost Nova + Bone Chill = AoE freeze with +20% enemy damage taken
    Wave of Force + Impactful Wave = AoE knockback and stun
    Slow Time + Time Warp = -20% enemy attackspeed, 30% snare, +20% enemy damage taken
    (Any armor ability)

    Temporal Flux = Passive 30% snare with Arcane damage
    (any 2nd and 3rd passives)

    DH
    Grenades + Stun Grenades = Spammable AoE damage with 25% stun chance
    Impale + Impact = Singletarget damage with 65% stun chance
    Cluster Arrows + Dazzling Arrow = AoE damage with 55% stun chance
    Marked for Death + Death Toll = +12% enemy damage taken, 1% Life Tap
    Caltrops + Hooked Spines = 80% AoE snare
    Vault + Rattling Roll = Escape ability with knockback and stun

    Numbing Traps - -25% damage debuff from traps
    Thrill of the Hunt - Immobilizes 1 enemy every 10 sec.
    (any 3rd passive)

    If all debuffs stacked, that party of 4 could inflict an enemy with up to -20% * -25% * -20% * -25% = -64% damage dealt and +20% +20% +20% +12% = +72% damage taken.

    Honestly, decreasing incoming damage by 2/3 seems a little too strong, and makes me wonder if multiple "enemy damage debuffs" will not stack.
  • #6
    Since the wizard's passives are triggered by damage type, it becomes a bit too big to list. Anything that isn't physical damage can provide a debuff.
  • #7
    Great post. This is a really important topic.
    Think about Inferno. What could possibly make it freaking hard? Overwhelming damage it seems.
    If you can't survive, you can't beat it. Dps will ofc be important but i'm guessing that the real deal will be survivability.
    A good group is a group that *can* dish a great amount of aoe or a great amount of single target damage when necessary. But most importantly a group that can survive tough mobs.

    Method 1-Avoid their damage
    -Avoid projectiles. "Get out of fire" etc. Gaming 101 here
    -Snare and bring them down before they can hit you. IF they can be snared
    -Chain stun them before they can deal damage. IF they can be stunned.
    -CC of all kinds. Hex, blind, etc etc. IF they can be cc'ed
    -Target dummies. Stuff that take the hit for you. Like mirror image. IF mobs can be fooled that.

    Expect some mobs to be vulnerable, others don't. Using these resources make encounters a 1000% easier. Whenever possible: use them. But don't count on them. Tough elites and bosses will be immune to snare, stun, cc and dummies (if they're not: abuse it).

    Method 2-Tank their damage
    There are some tanking possibilities. The barb specially can fill the tank role, but other classes (monk above others) can fill this role eventually. You don't need a full tank build, you can have a dps barb with demo shout (taunt) and ignore pain. The boss is about to do 100% more damage for x seconds? The barb taunts him and stay alive with Ignore Pain and maybe some dodge cooldown, your teammates will be safe for a little longer.
    You're not avoiding damage, you're directing it.
    Tanking however is limited on D3. Everyone is taking damage and must be ready to take damage.

    Method 3-Soak damage
    Your whole team needs to run with quite a bit of vitality, and also life regen and lifesteal to keep health up. Have a shield ready for specific encounters. Have resistance sets on inventory for specific encounters. That said...
    The group can and must soak a great deal of unavoidable damage. Now take a look at the debuffs/buffs list.
    Monk:
    Crippling Wave+Concussion: -20% enemy damage, -20%enemy attackspeed
    Resolve: -25% enemy damage buff

    Barbarian:
    Threatening Shout: -20%enemy damage

    Witch Doctor:
    Bad Medicine: -20%enemy damage

    So...with these 3 you can make enemies do -85% damage. This looks pretty mandatory to me...

    You also have
    Monk:
    Mantra of Evasion + Hard Target= +15% dogdge +20%armor
    Serenity + Tranquility: absorb all damage and cc immunity for 2 secs for party.

    Barb:
    War Cry: +20%armor, +15%dodge (or 40%armor, or 10%life)
    Ignore Pain+Mob Rule: reduce damage taken by party by 65% for 5sec

    Demon Hunter:
    Sentry+Guardian Turret: reduce damage taken by party by 15%

    Defensive cooldowns aside, it'd be great having Guardian Turret and the armor/dodge buffs. Combine these with enemies dealing 85% less damage and you're prepared to face some ridiculous amount of dmg.
    The wizard can offer some pretty interesting things, from mirror images (extremely good defensive ability IF they work) to diamond skin and slow time. But overall i'd say wizards offer less to overall survivability.
    The monk is completely awesome for groups. I expect them to have a medium to high dps, you'll want to bring a medium dps monk with lots of debuff, protection and group damage buffs.
    The barbarian won't buff group dmg, but will bring a high dps both single target and aoe AND a great deal of defense with defensive buffs, -dmg debuff and tanking possibilities. The barb doesn't need to be a dedicated tank: he can both deal a huge amount of dmg and contribute to the group survivability.
    The Demon Hunter bring a high single target damage, and a little of group damage buff and defensive buff.
    The same can be said of the Witch Doctor. And he can also bring pets. But the witch doctor seems to be able to do high aoe, but i'm not sure about single target. It can go from medium to high, but i can't guarantee as i can the barb/dh/wizard.

    Optimal setup? It seems to be.
    -Monk: required. He's the core of any group.
    -Barb: almost required. High dmg, buffs/debuffs and tanking.
    -Demon Hunter: High dmg, some buffs/debuffs
    -Witch Doctor: Maybe high dmg, some buffs/debuffs, pets
    The monk should be with a support build, he'll do med dps as we said. The other 3 should save slots for their essential buffs and debuffs, and run the best possible single target damage build (saving one slot for aoe, when possible).

    Abuse every possible mean to avoid damage. Abuse the barb tanking possibilities. Abuse the monk healing and defensive cooldowns. Have a group with a huge buff/debuff synergy. Have the proper gear for what you're trying to beat. And try to deliver the max possible dps while doing all the above.
  • #8
    Well done, but it looks like we are back to the Trinity of healer (monk), tank (barb), and dps . . . oh well hope you all make a monk so I don't have to roll one as my first.
  • #9
    Quote from AhhhZombies

    Well done, but it looks like we are back to the Trinity of healer (monk), tank (barb), and dps . . . oh well hope you all make a monk so I don't have to roll one as my first.

    Hm i wouldn't say that. Healing and taking in d3 are far too limited to be called a role. The barb can tank as much as the witch doctor can cc. It's part of the class but it's not something that defines the class role.
    Every class in diablo is actually very versatile in terms of builds. You have solo builds, group builds, single target builds, aoe builds, pet builds, control builds, support builds etc etc etc.
    Your team is rather a 4dps team, with each dps taking some specific tasks (like using x skill when the grp needs, or keep y buff/debuff up).
    The point of an Inferno team is overcoming a great challenge, that we predict will come mostly with overwhelming damage taken. You have to build a 4dps team that is effective at killing things while...you stay alive.
    If you can indeed stack these buffs/debuffs...hell it's A LOT of difference. You're taking half damage (or less) just because of class synergy.
  • #10
    Quote from AhhhZombies

    Well done, but it looks like we are back to the Trinity of healer (monk), tank (barb), and dps . . . oh well hope you all make a monk so I don't have to roll one as my first.

    I think you're wrong.
    Barb & Monk have poor taunts.
    Monk has poor heals that can nowhere close sustain damage taken of a person that wouldn't be built half for survival in the first place.
    D3 is about all DPS/CC/debuff classes that try to maximize synergies inside their own build and with each partner (for overall group benefit, hence this thread).
    Any class that isn't able to handle most of it's own survivability is doomed to fail in inferno (imo)
  • #11
    Quote from Maerlimi


    Monk:
    Crippling Wave+Concussion: -20% enemy damage, -20%enemy attackspeed
    Resolve: -25% enemy damage buff

    Barbarian:
    Threatening Shout: -20%enemy damage

    Witch Doctor:
    Bad Medicine: -20%enemy damage

    So...with these 3 you can make enemies do -85% damage. This looks pretty mandatory to me...



    It is multiplicative: (1 - (0.8*0.8*0.8*0.75)= 0.62%)


    For example, if you were to add 20% damage mitigation buff one after the other, the reduction would be:

    1: 20% (20% bonus)
    2: 36% (16% bonus)
    3: 49% (13% bonus)
    4: 59% (10% bonus)

    I would go with 2 or at most 3 buffs of the same type because of this. I am planning on a 3s team and it will be Barb/Monk/WD. The monks buffs are the best in terms of damage mitigation (if you can keep resolve up) so i will definetly go for the 25% + 20% damage decrease making it 40% (not 45%). I would not waste another skill to go further into mitigating damage.
  • #12
    Quote from 1up_Mush

    It is multiplicative: (1 - (0.8*0.8*0.8*0.75)= 0.62%)


    For example, if you were to add 20% damage mitigation buff one after the other, the reduction would be:

    1: 20% (20% bonus)
    2: 36% (16% bonus)
    3: 49% (13% bonus)
    4: 59% (10% bonus)

    I would go with 2 or at most 3 buffs of the same type because of this. I am planning on a 3s team and it will be Barb/Monk/WD. The monks buffs are the best in terms of damage mitigation (if you can keep resolve up) so i will definetly go for the 25% + 20% damage decrease making it 40% (not 45%). I would not waste another skill to go further into mitigating damage.


    That's VERY interesting. If things are as you say it would be wise to have 2 at most 3 of the same buff, but bring different buffs. For instance you can bring 2/3 -x% enemy damage done, and also bring a -y% damage taken and a -z%enemy attack speed.
    These are different categories so they wouldn't be multiplicative, right?

    The same would work for group buffs. You could stack two armor buffs, but they would be multiplicative, suffering diminished effectiveness. You could instead bring one armor% buff and one life% buff.

    Let's talk about each defensive category.

    Enemies damage done -%
    -Monk alone brings 40%.
    -Barb brings 20%. Witch Doctor brings 20%. You can bring a monk and one of these two and be fine (52%). But if you want to min/max this category you'll bring all and have around 61%.
    -The monk can bring even more 10% with Mantra of Conviction (runed). But he has other great mantras.

    Enemies attack speed -%
    -Barbs can bring 15% with Threatening Shout (runed) but it's only for 5seconds
    -Monks can bring 20% with Crippling Wave. It's a primary skill so they can keep it up most of the time.
    -Wizards 20%. Enemies inside a Slow Time bubble only. They can't keep the bubble up all the time.

    Dodge %
    -Barbs can bring 15% with War Cry, but they wouldn't give 10% life and some life regen.
    -Monks bring 15% with Mantra of Evasion. But he can only use one mantra.
    If you bring both you'll have around 28%dodge.

    Armor %
    -Barbs can bring 40% armor with War Cry (runed).
    -Monks can bring 20% armor with Mantra of Evasion. If you bring both you'll have 52% more armor.

    Life %
    -Barbs can bring 10% more maximum life with War Cry (runed)

    Vitality %
    -Monks can bring 10% Vitality with Mantra of Healing (runed)

    Resistance %
    -Monks can bring 20% more resistance to all types with Mantra of Healing (runed)

    Party reduced damage taken %
    -Demon Hunter can bring 15% with Sentry (runed)

    Life regen per sec
    This category is not multiplicative (as far as we know). If one class brings 300regen and other brings 600 you'll have a total of 900regen.

    Choosing a setup
    When you chose your setup, you should probably bring a monk and a barbarian (if you're about to face overwhelming damage as we said above)
    Together they can bring 52% less damage done by enemies, 52% more armor, 15% dodge and 20% reduced enemy attack speed. The barb is spending two skill slots and the monk two skill slots and a passive to bring these.
    The other classes can bring some defensive elements, from buffs/debuffs to useful skills (the wizard is not bringing debuffs but he brings stuff like Slow Time, which reduces projectiles speed by 90%. May be pretty useful eventually). But again, if you bring a WD and a DH, and they take Bad Medicine and Guardian Turret, you're taking your enemy damage reduction from 52% to 61% and your party damage reduction to 15%.
    Note that with the monk/barb duo you have some choices to do regarding runes and mantra. You may focus on armor, or dodge, or more health, or life regen, or resistance. Usually i'd chose armor and dodge, but for some encounters you may prefer something else.

    Let's talk about offensive categories

    Enemies take % more damage
    -Monks can bring 24% with Mantra of Conviction (runed). This is huge. But it's a mantra, so they have to chose between this and some more defensive mantras.
    -Demon Hunters can bring 12% with Marked for Death. With the monk Mantra you'd have 33%.
    -Monks can bring 10% with Crippling Wave (runed) but they give up on 20% less enemy damage done, poor choice usually.
    -The other are too short or too ureliable.

    Party % damage done
    -Monks bring 16% with Guiding Light (passive) + Breath of Heaven
    -Witch Doctor can bring 30% for 20secs, but on a 2min cd. It's awesome for burn phases along with Wrath of the Berserker and Archon.

    Party % attack speed
    -Monks can bring 8% with Mantra of Retribution (runed) but this is pretty weak comparing to the other mantra that brings 24% enemy damage taken.
    -Wizards can bring 10% for 8secs inside Slow Time bubble
    -Witch Doctors can bring 20% for 20secs every 2minutes.


    Choosing a setup
    Again the monk is pretty good to bring. A support monk obviously won't bring as much dmg as a dps barb/dh/wizard but their damage is pretty decent, even with all the support skills. They bring 16% damage they can keep up almost always and a 24% damage aura, which will be awesome for some specific encounters and for easy fights in general.
    The Demon Hunter not only brings top-level single target dps but also 12% damage with Marked for Death.
    Witch Doctors. I haven't made all calculations about their damage, but as far as i can tell they can dish a lot of dmg with a good build. And they can bring Big Bad Vodoo, a 20secs party buff that is even better combined with burst moments (for burst comps 20%speed and 30% damage will be huge).
    Barbarians and Wizards can both dish a high amount of single target. And they have these insane burst abilities.
    In terms of offense you can't find clear winners (as you can in D), except maybe the monk, he's a support that can bring 40% more damage for his team. You can run him with a steady dmg team and he's awesome, you can run him with a burst dmg team and he's awesome.
  • #13
    Edit: Nvm... missread.
    Winter is coming...
  • #14
    Hey guys, very interesting topic!

    I'm planning on playing with some friends, we'll probably go with Wiz/Barb/Monk/WD, but lately we've been thinking about switching the WD with another monk (for an extra mantra). Do you guys think that will outweight the benefits of Big bad Voodoo runed with Slam Dance + Horrify? or maybe an extra Barb?

    Unfourtanetly I couldn't try the open beta (was busy at the time), but all three of my friends said that I should consider making a monk or a Barb, seeing how I don't mind playing a specific class.

    So, TL;DR: whats the better comp: Barb+Wiz+Monk+WD or Barb+Wiz+Monk+Barb/Monk

    Thank you all for reading this, and I'm sorry I didn't bring anything to the table, once I start playing i'll offer some input on whatever comp I end up playing ;)
  • #15
    Quote from Plonker

    Hey guys, very interesting topic!

    I'm planning on playing with some friends, we'll probably go with Wiz/Barb/Monk/WD, but lately we've been thinking about switching the WD with another monk (for an extra mantra). Do you guys think that will outweight the benefits of Big bad Voodoo runed with Slam Dance + Horrify? or maybe an extra Barb?

    Unfourtanetly I couldn't try the open beta (was busy at the time), but all three of my friends said that I should consider making a monk or a Barb, seeing how I don't mind playing a specific class.

    So, TL;DR: whats the better comp: Barb+Wiz+Monk+WD or Barb+Wiz+Monk+Barb/Monk

    Thank you all for reading this, and I'm sorry I didn't bring anything to the table, once I start playing i'll offer some input on whatever comp I end up playing ;)

    There's really little info about endgame to answer that for sure. But i'd risk saying that a Barb+Wiz+Monk+Barb would be the most powerful combination dps wise, while having a really solid defense. What this comp can bring?
    -Lots of buffs from the monks and barbs.
    -Lots of defensive resources. You have the monk aoe heal, the monk aoe immunity, and two barbs aoe ignore pain, along with other stuff. Against casters you have slow time.
    -Both barbs and wizard have a lot of burst aoe.
    -You can stunlock forever those mobs that can be stunned. Don't expect this on harder difficulties.
    -And more than anything you have a huge amount of burst. If your wizard pops Archon and your two barbs pop Wrath of the Berserker (with 100% more dmg ofc), with all buffs up, together...you can expect elite mobs to die during the burst and bosses to lose a huge amount of life during it. So yea for a burst comp it's pretty awesome and burst is very welcome.
  • #16
    edit : @Maerlimi : thanks for those great additions to this topic :)

    Monk is such a versatile buff&debuff bringer that you could for sure create a viable 4 group monks that would totally rock (4 mantras FTW). It can be done in a lesser extent with other classes.

    So, having 2 monks + 1 barb in a group is above perfectly fine to me (we considered with my GF going for 2 monks, but at the end she preferred DH)

    If you think you might be at disadvantage because of having only 1 ranged, monk can* teleport infinitely for no cost and be at melee range of casters/bowmen in a blink. (* Fist of Thunder+Thunderclap)
  • #17
    Quote from Gryzorz

    So, having 2 monks + 1 barb in a group is above perfectly fine to me (we considered with my GF going for 2 monks, but at the end she preferred DH)

    I think bringing 2 monks is perfectly fine. You can set one to be the main support monk and the other to be the dps-oriented monk. Or you can set both to share the buff/debuffing task so it's less of a burden to each.

    The good thing about diablo is that any comp can work really. It's not a tank-heal-dps triangle. Every class brings dps and some other things, based on skill/passive choice.

    How effective each comp can be depends on how the game turns out to be really. And we don't know yet.

    But if you make a comp of 4 wizards and it turns out that some mobs hit extremely hard in the end you may find yourself dying very often when you get hit. If you bring those defensive buffs however your chance of survival increases signification. But even this might not be true. You may face enemies susceptible to be fooled by mirror images where 4 wizards don't take damage at all, just by rotating mirror image and diamond skin.

    If you face a fight that requires a lot of burst to make through a setup such as 4 wizards could be pretty good.

    If you face a fight where you have constant damage, unavoidable, like an aura ticking, bringing a lot of health regen on gear would be optimal, and 4 monks would be pretty good, both for the mantras and for the breath of heaven and serenity rotation.

    There are many possible situations. I think ultimately any comp will be able to defeat the game, but some comps will find it easier to defeat this or that part.
  • #18
    It's a terrible fallacy to assume that you will run a "healer/dps/tank" trinity like in WoW.

    There are four major sources of healing in D3:
    1) Life Leech
    2) Health Orbs
    3) Healing Abilities
    4) Potions

    All four of these sources of healing are dramatically more effective if damage is spread out between all four members of a group, not focused on one player. None of them are true single-target spam heals like a D1/D2 Holy Bolt or a WoW greater heal. It's much more analogous to Burning Crusade-era groups with 5 Shadowpriests (pre-Vampiric Embrace nerf). As long as the mobs are spread out and hitting all 5 players, VE will keep them all alive. If any one player tries to "tank" all of the damage, they will instantly die.

    Instead of "healer / tank / dps", the unholy trinity of Diablo will be "buff / debuff / stun". The only way to survive against swarms of monsters that hit for 170k damage will be to keep them stunned, snared, and debuffed as long as possible, and when you finally get hit you'll need to have enough Armor and Dodge buffs to not die.

    While a 4-monk combo sounds nice, the monk is really a buffing class and lacks some of the meaner debuffs like the 80% AoE snare (caltrops, grasp) or the cooldown AoE stun (nova, ground stomp). Also, the Monk is the only class lacking a long-duration cooldown like Call of the Ancients, Archon, Big Bad Voodoo, and Shadow Power. WDs actually have several big CDs - Sacrifice, Voodoo, Fetish Army, Mass Confusion, and some of the runed Gargantuans.
  • #19
    Quote from PiousFlea

    It's a terrible fallacy to assume that you will run a "healer/dps/tank" trinity like in WoW.

    There are four major sources of healing in D3:
    1) Life Leech
    2) Health Orbs
    3) Healing Abilities
    4) Potions

    All four of these sources of healing are dramatically more effective if damage is spread out between all four members of a group, not focused on one player.


    I see your point..

    To be honest, being a long time WOW player (and having rarely played D2) I often forget how different this game will be to what i'm used to. Right now i'm really not sure what I should roll. Initially I was pretty sure a WD with a runed gargantuan + horror/confusion could reduce damage taken by the melees enough to make it manageable, plus having Big Bad Voodoo for burst seemed ideal with the rest of the group. But now, having extra stuns from another barbarian, shouts and generally soaking some melee damage sounds pretty good aswell. I guess thats what Merlim means when he says

    There are many possible situations. I think ultimately any comp will be able to defeat the game, but some comps will find it easier to defeat this or that part.


    It seems they're both viable choices, and it eventually comes down to personal prefference. At least until we can actually play the game ;) worst case scenario, our group won't have only one ranged character.

    Thank you both for your responses, they've been enlightening. This thread definetly has alot of potential though, finding the right ammount of buff stacking to create a heavy stun/CC+dmg reduction and decent burst group sounds awesome. I'll try to figure out something later today :)
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