【INVIS】Monk, RoS 2.1 PTR Greater Rift 100 Solo Cleared and the Problems

  • #1
    Hi, it's INVIS here

    I would like to show a video of me clearing Tier 100 Rift on the PTR without what a lot of people assume is absolutely needed: Furnace (Gear-swap at town) & Empowered Shrine (Worship Glove). Whether I am able to do so it's not really the focus, of course if the rift is more difficult, I will die more, if the rift boss didn't summon minions, I will need to port back to town and gear swap (which is another issue in current rift system). This video is intended to demonstrate the problems we have in higher tier rift and the design flaw in some of the skill and gear combo.

    I get one shot by anything that touches me there, so it's all about position and my skill rotation. I absolutely don't think this is what BZ intend us to play higher rift. (although it's actually kind of fun for me). This is also a particular good video showing the current issue of monk skill and gear combo. I will be writing a more detail report to BZ addressing this issue. My concern is BZ tend to "delete" things that's overpower or not intended without considering the impact of the overall balance. I sincerely hope they can give some more thought about it.

    Whatever I have achieved in video will not make it to the live server, watch it with an open mind as there are still lots of changes coming. Have fun~
    http://youtu.be/01FxeT5kygo

    Spotted any other problems you feel BZ should notice and make adjustment? Feel free to report and discuss below.

    INVIS
    Last edited by INVIS: 7/8/2014 3:08:16 PM
  • #2
    That is an impressive display of skill, thanks for the video!

    You know what I kind of like about that (despite all its brokenness)? To some extent this makes crowd control, a good synergy of skills and items, and your playstyle more important than just "DEEEEEEEPS" as currently in T6 rifts where you just rush through everything and one-shot everything. Of course Rimeheart needs to be fixed (and will be fixed), and EP as well, but I hope that they still manage to make it an experience that's not just about DPS above all.
  • #3
    Nice vid. Also points out another broken aspect of EP that I hadn't heard of before. If mob health is "capped" at 999,999,999,999, but their "max health" is over 4 trillion, then EP doing 50% of max life is actually doing 200% of actual max health.

    Honestly I hope Grifts get a major re-work, even if they have to push it back a month or more further than they already were. The infinitely scaling hp method is just lazy and stupid. It doesn't work well, and it completely breaks certain mechanics (Such as % of health). I've seen some much better ideas on here, such as increasing elite density until it reaches 100% of the mobs. If that's still survivable, there could be random zone effects added, such as meteors falling from the sky, etc. It can get harder without larger and larger numbers.
  • #4

    As always great stuff invis. Impressiv gameplay +1 for you sir. ;)

  • #5
    Quote from Shinna1989

    As always great stuff invis. Impressiv gameplay +1 for you sir. ;)


    Thanks Shinna for the support as always, I have send you a PM, if you ever need any help on anything on this wonderful site, just let me know, I am here trying to help out as always.
  • #6
    Too bad that people like you don't get heard. Unfortunately, the stupid part of the Diablo 3 players, CASUAL at best, got their way because they are stupid and many. God forbid hardcore players with knowledge of the mechanics can get a say or enjoy the game with their favorite class.

    The monk needs to be saved, every class deserves to be viable and have its strong points to be viable in party.

    I really hope they'll reconsider this hp scaling difficulty and really give us a great game without having to gimp one of the classes to do so.
  • #7
    Quote from malacay

    Too bad that people like you don't get heard. Unfortunately, the stupid part of the Diablo 3 players, CASUAL at best, got their way because they are stupid and many. God forbid hardcore players with knowledge of the mechanics can get a say or enjoy the game with their favorite class.

    The monk needs to be saved, every class deserves to be viable and have its strong points to be viable in party.

    I really hope they'll reconsider this hp scaling difficulty and really give us a great game without having to gimp one of the classes to do so.

    If you mean the fact that EP will get nerfed instead of GR scaling differently (not HP / Damage to insane amounts) i agree. Apparently both will happen though at this stage.

    If you mean that Rimeheart + EP are fine and are "smart" in any way then nope not really. Without Rimeheart you'd be sitting there killing a white mob for an hour or so in GR100. Without EP you'd spend even more time on elites, nevermind the rift guardian which would most likely take a few days to kill. Let's not forget some classes can't even use that weapon nor do they have a skill that can scale as amazingly as EP.

    I always liked your vids Invis but tbh, most people watching this don't even understand what's going on and you seem kinda reluctant to even explain it yourself, most likely because you know it's cheap and will get fixed.

    Also furnace = only amazing for RG, Rimeheart + EP> that by a mile as long as you got adds around to blow them up. The shrine yes, it only allowed you to be almost immortal but that's it.
    Last edited by Natalya85: 7/9/2014 1:00:37 AM
  • #8
    Quote from Natalya85

    If you mean the fact that EP will get nerfed instead of GR scaling differently (not HP / Damage to insane amounts) i agree. Apparently both will happen though at this stage.



    ^^. Also, Rimeheart might seem OP, the Furnace too, but that's just because of bad decisions from Blizz regarding GR difficulty by HP scaling. This was the initial RoS beta issue with CB. Too much HP => CB OP. Rimeheart and Furnace are CB converted into items, albeit very rare items, thus resulting in the same issue from RoS beta.You'd think that a bunch of "smart" people from the dev department would've seen this coming. But I think it's less demanding and cheaper to just throw numbers at us.
    Last edited by malacay: 7/9/2014 1:38:44 AM
  • #9
    Nice video INVIS! Keep it up!

    I enjoy watching the things you come up with :)
  • #10
    Quote from INVIS

    Hi, it's INVIS here

    I would like to show a video of me clearing Tier 100 Rift on the PTR without what a lot of people assume is absolutely needed: Furnace (Gear-swap at town) & Empowered Shrine (Worship Glove). Whether I am able to do so it's not really the focus, of course if the rift is more difficult, I will die more, if the rift boss didn't summon minions, I will need to port back to town and gear swap (which is another issue in current rift system). This video is intended to demonstrate the problems we have in higher tier rift and the design flaw in some of the skill and gear combo.

    I get one shot by anything that touches me there, so it's all about position and my skill rotation. I absolutely don't think this is what BZ intend us to play higher rift. (although it's actually kind of fun for me). This is also a particular good video showing the current issue of monk skill and gear combo. I will be writing a more detail report to BZ addressing this issue. My concern is BZ tend to "delete" things that's overpower or not intended without considering the impact of the overall balance. I sincerely hope they can give some more thought about it.

    Whatever I have achieved in video will not make it to the live server, watch it with an open mind as there are still lots of changes coming. Have fun~
    http://youtu.be/01FxeT5kygo

    Spotted any other problems you feel BZ should notice and make adjustment? Feel free to report and discuss below.

    INVIS

    Shouldn't they just add the damage resistance instead of buffing the HP? Like 95-97% Damage resistance would increase the difficulty by a lot and not make the items like Furnace or skills like EP op. And they should not nerf Rimeheart - they should make so the "trash" mobs in the Greater Rifts are not "white mobs" but kind of elites just without the affixes (so the Rimeheart is still a fun in normal rifts and during bountie farmin). That would eliminate the need of nerfing one of the most fun-bringing item and resolve the problem of facesmashing Greater Rifts.

    Crushing Blow on furnace should not be changed, with increased Fire Resistance on creeps (when progressing further and further) it wouldn't make so much damage as it does now. It will be still powerful but not overpowered.

    Blizzard tries to takes the fun out of the game by nerfing items that are very, very, very rare and should be very, very, very powerful instead of repairing the game mechanics.

    Add damage resistance, make the trash creeps "elite" tagged and let people have some fun.
    Last edited by silvach: 7/9/2014 2:43:56 AM
  • #11
    ye, everything was fine with monk, as they stated themselves "we are currently fine with monk class" (as seen in older patches), and it has only become an issue with GRifts, because they were designed bad at the point of scaling.. rework GRifts and everything will still be fine.

    but maybe they do the mistake and destroy the monk class by reworking/removing EP .. though rimeheart/bulkathos ring/furnace still seem a bit OP.
    \m/,
  • #12
    I dont play monks, but the game looks very broken ^^



    I only play HC so I dont think I'd ever get to see lvl 100, but really? 300'000'000'000'000 HP and oneshotting with every atack? How are we supposed to beat this in HC? ^^ Not to mention that actually doing that much damage will take forever.
  • #13
    that's plain and simple stupid... what is the difference between a mob that has 999 999 999 999 HP and a mob that has 1 000 000 hp and 97% dmg resistance? on both cases you'd be killing them half a day.

    The problem is the GRifts aren't challenging apart for hp scaling nor fun for that matter, there should be some random factor like enviromental hazards or something more imaginative than infinite hp mobs - this doesn't make the game fun, it just makes it tedious and repettitive
  • #14
    Quote from erav2000
    that's plain and simple stupid... what is the difference between a mob that has 999 999 999 999 HP and a mob that has 1 000 000 hp and 97% dmg resistance? on both cases you'd be killing them half a day.

    The problem is the GRifts aren't challenging apart for hp scaling nor fun for that matter, there should be some random factor like enviromental hazards or something more imaginative than infinite hp mobs - this doesn't make the game fun, it just makes it tedious and repettitive

    Damage resistance would negate the need of changing skills based on HP of the mob as well as the items like furnace. And this is Diablo, did you ever played this franchise before? They will not add "deadly environment hazards" and "traps" and other kind of rpg stuff - this game is about doing the most damage you can in shortest time possible. Period.

    I have nothing against escalating the HP / Damage of monsters, I just say what is the solution to not-nerfing the legendary funbringers (rim and furnace) or skills that are fine as they are.

    All you people want to make GR like raids in mmorpg or something like that, tell me one thing - why? You want complex game with a lot of environmental hazards and other traps/stuff etc. you can play a different game. The problem with Diablo is that adding complex tactics and strategy to this game will BRAKE this game nature - slashing through thousands of creeps with smile on your face. That is Diablo. Please don't try to make this game something it is not.

    cheers!
  • #15
    Quote from silvach

    All you people want to make GR like raids in mmorpg or something like that, tell me one thing - why? You want complex game with a lot of environmental hazards and other traps/stuff etc. you can play a different game. The problem with Diablo is that adding complex tactics and strategy to this game will BRAKE this game nature - slashing through thousands of creeps with smile on your face. That is Diablo. Please don't try to make this game something it is not.

    cheers!

    I haven't seen any suggestions but one odd post in some other thread that mentions making them anything like an MMO. There is nothing in this thread that suggests anything not like Diablo. You're saying environmental effects like Belial's rain are not Diablo? Preposterous.

    Slashing through thousands of creeps with a smile on your face does not work in an infinite-difficulty scenario. You will reach one of two points with an infinite(or pseudo-infinite) rift. Either you reach a point that we have now, the number-scaling scenario, where you get one-shot if you get hit, and you either exploit some bad game mechanics or attack a single white for several minutes, which will mean you'll run out of time due to large numbers. Or you reach a point where the game gets very difficult and staying alive is a measure of mobility, positioning and awareness (The increased elites + Environmental dangers could create an environment like this I believe). Both of those are not "Slashing through thousands of creeps with a smile on your face", because that implies a lack of difficulty, which does not mesh with scaling rifts.
    Last edited by PaulAcid: 7/9/2014 8:12:36 AM
  • #16
    Quote from PaulAcid
    Quote from silvach

    All you people want to make GR like raids in mmorpg or something like that, tell me one thing - why? You want complex game with a lot of environmental hazards and other traps/stuff etc. you can play a different game. The problem with Diablo is that adding complex tactics and strategy to this game will BRAKE this game nature - slashing through thousands of creeps with smile on your face. That is Diablo. Please don't try to make this game something it is not.

    cheers!

    I haven't seen any suggestions but one odd post that mentions making them anything like an MMO. There is nothing in this thread that suggests anything not like Diablo. You're saying environmental effects like Belial's rain are not Diablo? Preposterous.

    Slashing through thousands of creeps with a smile on your face does not work in an infinite-difficulty scenario. You will reach one of two points with an infinite(or pseudo-infinite) rift. Either you reach a point that we have now, where you get one-shot if you get hit, and you either exploit some bad game mechanics or attack a single white for several minutes. Or you reach a point where the game gets very difficult and staying alive is a measure of mobility, positioning and awareness (The increased elites + Environmental dangers could create an environment like this I believe). Both of those are not "Slashing through thousands of creeps with a smile on your face", because that implies a lack of difficulty, which does not mesh with scaling rifts.

    If you are not able to "slash through the creeps" at some point and you need to position / spend more than 5 minutes to kill a white mob, then it means you should not be there. You need to gear up and try again.

    I bet that when some people bought the RoS they were like "This is ridiculous, those mobs on Torment difficulty are taking weeks to kill". Did that mean that we should change the mechanics or that they should gear up?
    Maybe every player starting new character should select Torment difficulty and game should be challenging only by adding some traps and stuff?

    If you can't beat it normally, you should not be there, go back and gear up or bring some friends.
    Don't try to blame game for lack of gear and luck. And you can say thing like "it's impossible to kill 10^31 HP mobs", but believe me, while you do it other people that don't complain all the time gear up and soon they will post some videos of "speedruning T100 GR in 2 minutes". I bet there were people like you saying that T6 Rifts are impossible and should not be scaled like this. And now.. you can find a lot of youtube movies with people running T6 under 5 minutes.

    I'm just saying that making the game more complex in the "tactic and strategic" way will kill the game's nature.

    BTT

    They should add damage resistance, elite status on trash in GR and the problem of EP, Rimeheart and Furnace will be solved. Easy.
    Last edited by silvach: 7/9/2014 8:22:09 AM
  • #17
    Quote from silvach

    They should add damage resistance, elite status on trash in GR and the problem of EP, Rimeheart and Furnace will be solved. Easy.

    Yea, except if they do that, without changing the effective scaling, just changing the HP increase to damage decrease, you still get an RG that takes an effective 8 months to kill at GRift 100. I don't care if you increase your current damage by 100x. (Which won't happen) That's still days of constant damage to kill a mob.

    Your argument could hold water if we weren't talking about Greater Rifts.. You do realize they're adding this thing to the game, right? That scales up to the point where mobs will get harder and harder until, get this - You're not SUPPOSED to be able to win. Ever. That's the idea. It's only through broken mechanics that people can "complete" GRifts at 100 now. That means slowed down gameplay at some point. That means nobody should ever speed-clear the hardest levels, because they cannot even be completed with what's available in the game. Hell, they didn't even manage to code the ability of mobs to have over 1trillion hps because they thought that was a ridiculous number. And it is. Given the current design, people should be stuck around GRift lvl 50, where they get one-shot, and can never kill anything because of the ridiculous amounts of hps. They're getting around that now with broken mechanics... but one of those things will be fixed.
  • #18
    But this is the nature of this game. Some people will die oneshotted by trash in GR30 some in GR50 and some will achieve GR100. You can never say that there is a level of the GR that somebody will not reach. You know you can't. You can be like almost sure, but there are people who does impossible possible. When I reached the inferno before all the nerf-hammers I though going outside the A2 was impossible. The wisps were killing me with ONE hit. I was angry and frustrated and when I was whining around a guy named Kripp and his friend named Krippi beat the A4, on inferno (pre nerfs), without skipping acts and without using Tyrael glitches... on HARDCORE.I don't know if you were playing Diablo those days, but the inferno was like hitting a truck on a highway while driving a bike. He was the only one to do it. That can say a lot, does it not?

    And if those levels are infinite then yeah at some point it will be technically impossible to complete. I think at some point game will crash because of the numbers. But hey, who cares - the challenge is to beat the most levels possible and it's not based on your skill but time put in the game and gear acquired. That was the core experience of the Diablo franchise. It's not about the personal skill (ofcourse it means something) but time put into it.

    Casuals will not have chance to compete with other people who devotes their time to play the game 24/7. That is not going to change if they add "environmental hazards" instead of scaling the HP - people who will not devote the time will not go deep enough.
  • #19

    I'm just saying that making the game more complex in the "tactic and strategic" way will kill the game nature.


    you really REALLY don't understand what this game is about... if Blizzard only wanted to achieve "just rush forward and don't mind anything" kinda thing he wouldn't have implemented freedom of skill selection at any point in the game, because THIS is strategy and tactics that you clearly ommited.

    And saying "add 97% damage resistance but don't revamp Furnace /Rimeheart/EP" is hypocrisy on your side. How would Furnace work then? would it still turn 6-8% of enemy's current HP into damage? or would it only turn 3% of those 6-8% into damage? again...stupid, it's best to redesign both legendaries/skills that thrive on %hp and Grifts rather than just redesigning one flawed mechanic instead of two.


    I bet that when some people bought the RoS they were like "This is ridiculous, those mobs on Torment difficulty are taking weeks to kill". Did that mean that we should change the mechanics or that they should gear up? Maybe every player starting new character should select Torment difficulty and game should be challenging only by adding some traps and stuff?


    um no... because RoS introduced lvl cap 70, new end game gear that no other pre RoS gear could match so eventually people would gear up.

    Here most players getting to Grift ~40 solo without using any flawed or exploited mechanics basically have end gear equipment, now tell me how can they gear up even more? oh right... they can't. They will eventually get the legendary gems but since that's not yet been introduced we can safely say that gear will stay as it is.



    So no, your way of thinking is exactly as Blizz...unimaginative. HP scaling of monsters/dmg resistance is plain boring because you just stand still and bash monsters until they die, if you are lucky enough you go to the next Grift lvl and repeat the process
  • #20
    Adding damage resistance to Greater Rifts would nerf the Furnace damage by reducing the fire damage it can do and still let players have fun with it on casual-layer (the normal rifts, bountie, scenario).

    Changing builds is not tactic, it's just freedom of how you slice through the mobs. This has nothing to do with the tactics but is more like added to add flexibility when you acquire new, game-changing gear.

    "Here most players getting to Grift ~40 solo without using any flawed or exploited mechanics basically have end gear equipment, now tell me how can they gear up even more? oh right... they can't. They will eventually get the legendary gems but since that's not yet been introduced we can safely say that gear will stay as it is."

    You just supported my point of view. People with current gear - that is not even near the gear that will be fully available when 2.1 is alive - are able to do 40-50-100 GR. Now imagine what will those people do with fully geared / gemed characters? Remember the "oh Barb is done in RoS" whining? I do. People were wining about it until the found out the Leap Barb. Suddenly barbarian was "ok" and even "overpowered".

    "HP scaling of monsters/dmg resistance is plain boring because you just stand still and bash monsters until they die, if you are lucky enough you go to the next Grift lvl and repeat the process"

    If bashing monsters until they die is boring for you, don't play diablo. Didn't want to bring that to the table but diablo was always about grinding stuff until your eyes bleed.

    Edit: You skipped the Krip part pretty well. But that should point out how this game works. One people say something is impossible and other people makes this possible.
    Last edited by silvach: 7/9/2014 8:52:19 AM
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