Penalties, death... where is it?

  • #23
    Quote from daisychopper

    I can appreciate your perspective but honestly, if you want a death penalty play Hardcore.


    Very much this.

    Quote from daisychopper

    Speaking for myself, I already avoid dying as often as possible because dying is losing and I hate losing. And I do have friends that play really recklessly because the death penalty is a joke as-is, but it's not like they're dying every 10 seconds and continuing anyway. That's just not a very entertaining way to play.


    People who make "needs to be death penalty!!1~!1!!~!!!!" posts act as if the average player is dying two dozen times an hour or something. It's such a ridiculous notion, honestly.

    Most people avoid dying simply because it IS failure/losing. They could remove all penalties from death and I still would try to not die. I don't like dying and that's the biggest incentive not to die there is. Period.
    67.1k elite kills :: 1.98m total kills :: p255
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #24
    OP, if you really want to have the thrill and excitement of dying, why not play Hardcore? You won't be able to respawn to keep pounding on the mobs because one death means its all over for that character.
    Efficiency is the name of the game and dying in softcore isn't very efficient.
  • #25
    Quote from Doorsfan

    Quote from Auun

    Quote from daisychopper

    I can appreciate your perspective but honestly, if you want a death penalty play Hardcore.

    Speaking for myself, I already avoid dying as often as possible because dying is losing and I hate losing. And I do have friends that play really recklessly because the death penalty is a joke as-is, but it's not like they're dying every 10 seconds and continuing anyway. That's just not a very entertaining way to play.

    On the flip side, those friends all play Hardcore as well and they like being able to switch to Softcore to goof around. So while I'm not against adding penalties for death in Softcore, it's all a joke compared to Hardcore. I think you'll be much happier if you switch.


    Well.. the thing is that it is not only about death penatly (it is in majority and I do not deny that my post indicates so) but it's more like about introducing challenge to the game.

    I think personally that players are awarded too many times. There are no serious obstacles.
    I think it is in human nature to face challenges and unfotunately we can't find them in Diablo 3.

    Easy facerolling is getting boring in a really short amount of time.


    You can do self-implimented challenges to artifically make the game harder.

    Beyond that, it is none of your business wether other players are "too rewarded" or not - as their experience is not yours to judge nor ultimately affecting you in any way.

    Making the game universally harder due to players themselves who want challenges do not create them - is not a very clever idea of going about that.

    TL;DR - Play hardcore cause YOU want a challenge.


    I would disagree... I think about the last time I tried to make the game "harder" for myself.. The entire time I thought "Ya this is harder, but it's so ineffective compared to what I could be doing..."

    I think if you put people in a position where they themselves have to choose to make the game harder, they will almost always choose the easier way, and why not? If i'm going to play this game, I want to be as efficient as possible.

    If they simply made the game harder in general, I think that would be a fantastic idea! If you don't like a challenge or having to put much thought behind your button mashing, then sure, you can turn down the difficulty or something to make you happy! On the flip side, if you thrive off of that near-death experience and team strategy and whatnot, you can play the top of the game, Torment VI.

    I think that idea would reach to the most people... and makes the most sense in the mindset of what a game like Diablo should be. If there is no challenge the game will have no replay value, and will quickly turn into what it is now on live, a button mashing, I'm-too-bored-to-play-so-I'll-bot, game.
    Gotta love that WD =)
  • #26
    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from daisychopper

    I can appreciate your perspective but honestly, if you want a death penalty play Hardcore.


    Very much this.

    Quote from daisychopper

    Speaking for myself, I already avoid dying as often as possible because dying is losing and I hate losing. And I do have friends that play really recklessly because the death penalty is a joke as-is, but it's not like they're dying every 10 seconds and continuing anyway. That's just not a very entertaining way to play.


    People who make "needs to be death penalty!!1~!1!!~!!!!" posts act as if the average player is dying two dozen times an hour or something. It's such a ridiculous notion, honestly.

    Most people avoid dying simply because it IS failure/losing. They could remove all penalties from death and I still would try to not die. I don't like dying and that's the biggest incentive not to die there is. Period.


    No death penalties makes defensive skills (especially certain ones) basically pointless in SC. That's broken. Who's using Ignore Pain in SC?
  • #27
    True, penalties should be increased, but not making them boring, like the increasing respawn time after dying consecutively.
  • #28
    Quote from Something92

    Quote from Doorsfan

    Quote from Auun

    Quote from daisychopper

    I can appreciate your perspective but honestly, if you want a death penalty play Hardcore.

    Speaking for myself, I already avoid dying as often as possible because dying is losing and I hate losing. And I do have friends that play really recklessly because the death penalty is a joke as-is, but it's not like they're dying every 10 seconds and continuing anyway. That's just not a very entertaining way to play.

    On the flip side, those friends all play Hardcore as well and they like being able to switch to Softcore to goof around. So while I'm not against adding penalties for death in Softcore, it's all a joke compared to Hardcore. I think you'll be much happier if you switch.


    Well.. the thing is that it is not only about death penatly (it is in majority and I do not deny that my post indicates so) but it's more like about introducing challenge to the game.

    I think personally that players are awarded too many times. There are no serious obstacles.
    I think it is in human nature to face challenges and unfotunately we can't find them in Diablo 3.

    Easy facerolling is getting boring in a really short amount of time.


    You can do self-implimented challenges to artifically make the game harder.

    Beyond that, it is none of your business wether other players are "too rewarded" or not - as their experience is not yours to judge nor ultimately affecting you in any way.

    Making the game universally harder due to players themselves who want challenges do not create them - is not a very clever idea of going about that.

    TL;DR - Play hardcore cause YOU want a challenge.


    I would disagree... I think about the last time I tried to make the game "harder" for myself.. The entire time I thought "Ya this is harder, but it's so ineffective compared to what I could be doing..."

    I think if you put people in a position where they themselves have to choose to make the game harder, they will almost always choose the easier way, and why not? If i'm going to play this game, I want to be as efficient as possible.

    If they simply made the game harder in general, I think that would be a fantastic idea! If you don't like a challenge or having to put much thought behind your button mashing, then sure, you can turn down the difficulty or something to make you happy! On the flip side, if you thrive off of that near-death experience and team strategy and whatnot, you can play the top of the game, Torment VI.

    I think that idea would reach to the most people... and makes the most sense in the mindset of what a game like Diablo should be. If there is no challenge the game will have no replay value, and will quickly turn into what it is now on live, a button mashing, I'm-too-bored-to-play-so-I'll-bot, game.


    I couldn't agree more. That's exaclty my point. I am afraid that RoS will turn into the thing that's live now.

    Hopefully something would be done. I hope so.

    Quote from maka

    No death penalties makes defensive skills (especially certain ones) basically pointless in SC. That's broken. Who's using Ignore Pain in SC?


    Ignore Pain, Inner Sanctuary, Caltrops, Mantra of Evasion, Mantra of Healing, Mantra of Retribution, Horrify, Mass Confusion... and so on.

    PLUS Every defensive rune of EACH skill.
  • #29
    Quote from Auun


    I would disagree... I think about the last time I tried to make the game "harder" for myself.. The entire time I thought "Ya this is harder, but it's so ineffective compared to what I could be doing..."

    I think if you put people in a position where they themselves have to choose to make the game harder, they will almost always choose the easier way, and why not? If i'm going to play this game, I want to be as efficient as possible.

    If they simply made the game harder in general, I think that would be a fantastic idea! If you don't like a challenge or having to put much thought behind your button mashing, then sure, you can turn down the difficulty or something to make you happy! On the flip side, if you thrive off of that near-death experience and team strategy and whatnot, you can play the top of the game, Torment VI.

    I think that idea would reach to the most people... and makes the most sense in the mindset of what a game like Diablo should be. If there is no challenge the game will have no replay value, and will quickly turn into what it is now on live, a button mashing, I'm-too-bored-to-play-so-I'll-bot, game.


    Iirc they briefly mentioned dynamic scaling of levling - or something akin. Not too sure there is something akin to that just yet - but i would think that would solve one of the age old riddles of Diablo.

    Given that having a set level - makes the difficulty trivial.. As you can outscale it or plain outlevel it. But i would believe that a good idea would be dynamic scaling. Perhaps at a slightly worse rate so that it's not 100% all the time - but still. The idea would be that you have the mobs scale based on a derived value of what the character playing has in respective stats.

    So say for example you have a extremely well geared person - then thoose mobs would automatically tune based on the value the game registers due to the extreme well gear - But still only scale to such a degree that it's slightly less then your output, so that you can still sort of see a sense of "progression".

    As for the original point - sadly, yes - if given the chanse people take the path to least resistnace. Albeit it is sort of hipocrisy at the same time, even if true - to claim that you wish for challenge, yet you are clearly not drawn to have that challenge when that possibility is in front of you. The only time you would take that challenge is if it was forced down your throat.

    I.e, giving it a tendency that you are in fact - not willing enough to actually DEAL with that content - making me believe that if the case was so that you would have the real difficulty, you would still opt to a lesser one - because it would be "too hard".

    TL;DR - Even if true, your words suggest you would not deal with the higher difficulty unless forced to.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/CrazyPoochification - Let's Play of Eastern Sun/Other stuff
  • #30
    You know back in the day, when elites gained all their life back? :D :D :D :D
    Make your peace...Quickly!
  • #31
    I'm not sure how "highly" my input will be put on death penalties since I've never touched softcore (except for a few achievements).

    As I see it, penalties do not exist. If you guys die, you respawn and have to pay a very few gold. Blizzard is very much in the mentality of "Let people who want death penalty play hardcore" yet they don't give us worthy deaths. If we die we just grind back to 60, and it's horribly boring. The content do not provide challenge even on MP10 untill Hell Act III, and you do not handicap yourself on hardcore to make things harder, hardcore to me is about doing my very best at every point.

    They do not provide proper penalties for either mode. Softcore needs just straight out higher penalties, not so much that it you could just as well play hardcore, but something that makes death look scary, but not too scary. Hardcore need the strength of the monsters back as it was in patch 1.0, so if we die (which now can start happending again on lvl 20 even) then it's right back in and face the challenge again. Not mindlesly charge into everything not fearing death untill you are level 55, even on MP10...

    I want softies to avoid death and not tank arcanes, but if they tank projectiles I'd find that normal, it's softcore and learning to dodge projectiles at this stage really isn't what blizzard should force upon you. They should give you guys fun, just not make death seem worthless.
  • #32
    I noticed people saying "well just play hardcore" and I have to say this is the most ridiculous response i've ever seen basically the expansion has 2 modes, hand holding and extreme. I am neither of those, I don't want Blizzard to hold my hand and tell me it's ok when I make a mistake but I don't want them to get out an axe and cut of a limb when I make a mistake either, I want something in the middle. I want there to be some time loss either through losing xp/gold or dropping down a few floors in a tower or through needing to get my corpse back etc.

    All in all, this mostly comes not from people wanting punishment for death but reward for survival as it should be, if you do well you should be rewarded. The better you do, the higher the level of play the more reward there should be and the only real way of doing that is to create punishment for failures. Somebody who dies 20 times in 1 game shouldn't receive basically the same reward per time spent as someone who doesn't die once. On top of this punishment for failure causes you to try harder, to learn and improve to look into better ways of putting ure build together or certain types of gear etc. Why would I bother doing all of that if it simply didn't make a difference?
  • #33
    Quote from maka

    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from daisychopper

    I can appreciate your perspective but honestly, if you want a death penalty play Hardcore.


    Very much this.

    Quote from daisychopper

    Speaking for myself, I already avoid dying as often as possible because dying is losing and I hate losing. And I do have friends that play really recklessly because the death penalty is a joke as-is, but it's not like they're dying every 10 seconds and continuing anyway. That's just not a very entertaining way to play.


    People who make "needs to be death penalty!!1~!1!!~!!!!" posts act as if the average player is dying two dozen times an hour or something. It's such a ridiculous notion, honestly.

    Most people avoid dying simply because it IS failure/losing. They could remove all penalties from death and I still would try to not die. I don't like dying and that's the biggest incentive not to die there is. Period.


    No death penalties makes defensive skills (especially certain ones) basically pointless in SC. That's broken. Who's using Ignore Pain in SC?


    Ignore Pain isn't being left out because of difficulty. Ignore Pain (and other defensive skills) are being ignored because of the power of life steal.
    Please read the community guidelines on Trolling & Flaming before you create a new thread just to complain... http://www.diablofans.com/forums/diablo-iii-general-forums/diablo-iii-general-discussion/75118-forum-guidelines-8-19-2012
  • #34
    ^^I disagree; as a self found player, it's very hard to find a good DPS weapon that has lifesteal; most (if not all) of my characters don't have one, and I still don't have a need to use most defensive skills.
  • #35
    There is a pair of gloves that makes shrines last 1 hour. So if you die too often, you can't use those gloves very well.
  • #36
    I would like to see rewards for staying alive rather than punishments for death.
  • #37
    Quote from itirnitii

    I would like to see rewards for staying alive rather than punishments for death.


    I can smell the expoits/abuses a mile away.
  • #38
    I agree with the OP 100%.. Not sure how blizzard will reintroduce this to d3 at this stage.... likes others have said, upon launch you did have to pick up your body and this made me more careful. D3 seems to cater to the more casual players to make the community happy in volumes at the start... but soon after the players left get bored... Please blizzard, this game can be so much more epic. A little fine tuning would be great to keep us from getting board. I fear for the longevity of d3 and ros as it stands.

    Someone brought up Strategic town portals... this was also used in d2 where I created a tp for me and "my friends" to use in case there was danger that we could not handle.. we fleed to this tp and it was scary to die. Such an tough choice here cause if the devs implement it being too tough.. the spoiled community not use to penalties would cry. Not sure how it going to be done but as it is now, this game will not survive the legacy that it deserves...... Come on blizzard, d3 is a stunning game, just needs a little fine tuning and keep us interested.

    Please take into consideration of past games and current games... use what work to keep a franchise strong.. not just for 6 months...
  • #39
    Quote from itirnitii

    I would like to see rewards for staying alive rather than punishments for death.


    U honestly want to see more rewards... u spoiled brat! Please take offense.

    D3C has nv stacks.. those are your rewards just to start....

    This time around, ros makes uniques or "legendaries" more epic.. that is rewarding enough....

    .... think about the longevity of the game.....
  • #40
    dying is a penalty in itself. the few people that want more penalties must be masochists. it was one of the worst and most frustrating parts of d2. grinding for hours for a little exp and then oops death. you just lost 5hrs of baal run exp.

    running to body? frustrating beyond belief even in a game where you can do damage without gear. in D3 it is impossible to do anything without gear.


    this is a game that is supposed to be fun. being penalized for dying is not fun especially not how they did it in d2.

    if you want a penalty play hardcore.
  • #41
    Quote from tankbomber

    Quote from itirnitii

    I would like to see rewards for staying alive rather than punishments for death.


    U honestly want to see more rewards... u spoiled brat! Please take offense.

    D3C has nv stacks.. those are your rewards just to start....

    This time around, ros makes uniques or "legendaries" more epic.. that is rewarding enough....

    .... think about the longevity of the game.....


    All hes asking for is the same thing as I said, it's not spoiled to expect reward for playing well infact it's the exact opposite it's spoiled to expect reward for playing badly. Your spoiled for expecting there to be 0 punishment for failure, you want to remove any challenge that may exist in the game, any method in which one player could gain more per hour than you through skill by removing the requirement of skill. Dieing is supposed to frustrating, that's the point your supposed to NOT WANT to die, your supposed to care and avoid mistakes not just be spoon fed legendarys without even needing to look at the screen.

    I honestly can't even believe people are defending this, why not give everyone god mode while we're at it to remove those 5 seconds until you can ress? This isn't a damn childs game, if you want a game where all you have to do is close ure eyes and hold down a button go play disney princess or something. I mean why on earth shouldn't there be punishments for mistakes, that's what makes a game challenging, it's what makes the difference between good and bad players and what makes people want to keep playing and improve. What reason will there be to build tanky or think about any action you do at all? I just don't get it what is it you want? Do you simply want a game where skill is irrelevant, you go full dps, turn of your brain and charge forward zerging through monsters while watching a movie?

    And we all know the people saying this now will be the people 1 month in complaining the game is "boring" and "too easy" when boring and easy is what your asking for. By asking Blizzard to not punish you for mistakes, your asking them to remove the challenge and create a game where you just hold down 1 button and what a character spin, we already have that and it sucks.
  • #42
    Quote from Fitsu

    I noticed people saying "well just play hardcore" and I have to say this is the most ridiculous response i've ever seen basically the expansion has 2 modes, hand holding and extreme. I am neither of those, I don't want Blizzard to hold my hand and tell me it's ok when I make a mistake but I don't want them to get out an axe and cut of a limb when I make a mistake either, I want something in the middle. I want there to be some time loss either through losing xp/gold or dropping down a few floors in a tower or through needing to get my corpse back etc.

    All in all, this mostly comes not from people wanting punishment for death but reward for survival as it should be, if you do well you should be rewarded. The better you do, the higher the level of play the more reward there should be and the only real way of doing that is to create punishment for failures. Somebody who dies 20 times in 1 game shouldn't receive basically the same reward per time spent as someone who doesn't die once. On top of this punishment for failure causes you to try harder, to learn and improve to look into better ways of putting ure build together or certain types of gear etc. Why would I bother doing all of that if it simply didn't make a difference?


    People give the logical response given the current situation. Given there are two modes, what possible answer do you expect? The most ridicilous part is not what answer people give - it is the expectation of that you will be given the EXACT answer you want, to a question that does not yield such a solution.

    You might WANT such a system - but if there is none at hand, and people STILL are suggesting things that are towards that spectrum (at least assuming you still talk about THIS game specifically) then i fail to see what possible answer you could come to expect.

    You even aknowledge that there are two extremes, there is literally ONLY 2 outcomes that you AKNOWLEDGELY spoke of yourself.

    What in the WORLD would you possibly expect for an answer to your rants? Sympathy? People are offering you solutions - not a shoulder to cry on.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Edit: There used to be such a mode you spoke of. It used to be playing a demon hunter pre-inferno nerf. You could get away with higher and higher amounts of "difficult stunts" (i.e just playing really well etc.) and there of pull a leap ton ahead of other players and be rewarded for your good plays.

    And i can relate to the needing/wanting of such a build/idea - but i think other games do it better then what D3 or RoS is going for - as i feel RoS is going more for the defensive aspect and sort of focus on forcing certain ideas based on percieved notions from developers (i.e imbalances simply put)
    http://www.youtube.com/user/CrazyPoochification - Let's Play of Eastern Sun/Other stuff
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