Will RoS end-game be worse than D3V?

  • #41
    Quote from Mob_Dylan

    Quote from maka

    What a shame that both the weapon and Inner Sanctuary are utter crap.....
    Not to mention 2-handers in general.


    The new Inner Sanctuary is actually quite nice maybe even OP with high attack speed

    http://i.imgur.com/L2t7uKO.png


    Yeah, that's actually much nicer.

    Quote from Flexy

    Quote from maka

    What a shame that both the weapon and Inner Sanctuary are utter crap.....
    Not to mention 2-handers in general.


    They aren't crap if you play Crusader. And right now I'm pretty sure the passive which lets him use a 2h weapon in 1 hand is going to be used in most (implying there will be more than one) end-game builds.


    That Crusader passive is completely overpowered, and it's likely to be nerfed, either by launch or in a subsequent patch. The fact that you have to bring it up to support the usefulness of 2-handers speaks volumes.
  • #42
    Quote from eman41

    I think what I'm most worried about (from watching streams) is the pace at which Torment VI becomes easy

    For the top 0.5% to 1% of the playerbase, with a significant head start, in a beta. I don't think Blizzard has released stats on how many players complete which monster power, but I would bet that the middle of the bell curve is at MP1 or MP2 with maybe 1 Paragon character over 50...maybe.

    No game can hold back the best gamers, it just isn't possible in today's gaming landscape.


    Didn't Kripp start a brand new Crusader and 0 Paragon? Today he was plowing Torment VI Rifts with ease. I'm not too worried about the current state of Torment, as that seems a pretty easy thing to change. But I hope they change it enough is all.
  • #43
    Quote from WarlockHolmez

    Quote from eman41

    I think what I'm most worried about (from watching streams) is the pace at which Torment VI becomes easy

    For the top 0.5% to 1% of the playerbase, with a significant head start, in a beta. I don't think Blizzard has released stats on how many players complete which monster power, but I would bet that the middle of the bell curve is at MP1 or MP2 with maybe 1 Paragon character over 50...maybe.

    No game can hold back the best gamers, it just isn't possible in today's gaming landscape.


    Didn't Kripp start a brand new Crusader and 0 Paragon? Today he was plowing Torment VI Rifts with ease. I'm not too worried about the current state of Torment, as that seems a pretty easy thing to change. But I hope they change it enough is all.


    So Kripp did it that means everyone can do it? They could leave it alone and it would still be enough for the majority of players. But yes, they will change it, don't worry about that.
  • #44
    Quote from WarlockHolmez

    Quote from eman41

    I think what I'm most worried about (from watching streams) is the pace at which Torment VI becomes easy

    For the top 0.5% to 1% of the playerbase, with a significant head start, in a beta. I don't think Blizzard has released stats on how many players complete which monster power, but I would bet that the middle of the bell curve is at MP1 or MP2 with maybe 1 Paragon character over 50...maybe.

    No game can hold back the best gamers, it just isn't possible in today's gaming landscape.


    Didn't Kripp start a brand new Crusader and 0 Paragon? Today he was plowing Torment VI Rifts with ease. I'm not too worried about the current state of Torment, as that seems a pretty easy thing to change. But I hope they change it enough is all.


    Even removing the head-start, you still can't keep them back. Kripp is one of the best/most-dedicated out there, he was the first to beat Inferno (original) on hardcore. The game can't be designed around that kind of player. That being said, I don't have first-hand knowledge of how difficult Torment is, just saying that the best players make difficult things seem a lot easier than they really are.
  • #45
    Quote from eman41

    Quote from WarlockHolmez

    Quote from eman41

    I think what I'm most worried about (from watching streams) is the pace at which Torment VI becomes easy

    For the top 0.5% to 1% of the playerbase, with a significant head start, in a beta. I don't think Blizzard has released stats on how many players complete which monster power, but I would bet that the middle of the bell curve is at MP1 or MP2 with maybe 1 Paragon character over 50...maybe.

    No game can hold back the best gamers, it just isn't possible in today's gaming landscape.


    Didn't Kripp start a brand new Crusader and 0 Paragon? Today he was plowing Torment VI Rifts with ease. I'm not too worried about the current state of Torment, as that seems a pretty easy thing to change. But I hope they change it enough is all.


    Even removing the head-start, you still can't keep them back. Kripp is one of the best/most-dedicated out there, he was the first to beat Inferno (original) on hardcore. The game can't be designed around that kind of player.


    I know Kripp is ahead of most. :) But 6 days to steamroll it seems fast for him. But like I said, I'm not too worried about it. They obviously didn't have too many testers before beta.
  • #46
    kripp's also known as no-life. stop using him as an example of the average d3 player.
  • #47
    Quote from pr3ach3r

    kripp's also known as no-life. stop using him as an example of the average d3 player.


    Never stated he was an average player. The point was that even the Hardcore crushing the game in a few days seemed too fast..
  • #48
    Quote from WarlockHolmez
    Never stated he was an average player. The point was that even the Hardcore crushing the game in a few days seemed too fast..


    I'm actually curious who else is rolling through Torment VI other than Kripp/Kongor who have been using a bugged/OP Crusader skill. Is there anyone else rolling through Torment VI with any other classes or using Crusader without the beam?

    Also, this is a F&F beta at the moment, expect players to find bugged skills/roll through content. If this was the state of the game a week away from launch I'd be worried about the launch state, but keep in mind this is a F&F beta and what these guys are doing is to be expected so the game can be balanced/tuned properly.
  • #49
    Quote from Solmyr77

    Quote from Shad3slayer

    Uhm. Just the first 3 properties on that helm are incredibly strong and better than anything in D3. It's the equivalents of "Grants lvl xy aura when equipped" that was in Diablo 2. Why are properties like this not in RoS? Like, "grants Mantra of Evasion when equipped" on a Barbarian belt, or "Chance to cast Smoke Screen when hit" on item that all classes can use. The only "innovation" in RoS is Crushing blow, which is reportedly even more unbalanced than anything we've had so far.

    The PoE item I linked has FLAVOR. It's incredibly powerful, but at the cost of not using chest armor. It gives 3 nearly max level effects to any skills you have equipped in it. That's incredibly strong. Plus flavor in the form of Extra Gore. Plus defense in the form of block chance. Now lets take a look at some of the stuff you mention as "strong points" of RoS itemization:


    Oh please. That helm isn't that amazing. The first three properties can't even exist in D3 because there is no such gem-system, though that is a nice thing about PoE. But if you think about it in PoE, removing your chest armor doesn't only mean removing stats, it means removing your main skill with up to 5(!) properties of your choice attached to it, not just three fixed ones + how many sockets it might still have (I suppose 3 would be max on a helm). So there's a huge drawback.
    Next thing, even if it were as strong as some of those dupewords in D2 that gave bonus auras, that's something most players explicitely do not want in D3. Auras should have been restricted to Paladins and Teleport to Sorcs, giving everyone everything wasn't good.


    That helm was just an example. I don't want to get into a detailed D3 - PoE itemization here. I'm not even familiar with PoE itemization all that much, all I saw was a couple of uniques I saw linked in trade chat while lvling to lvl 10 :) ... and the basic lowbie Uniques are better and more innovative and fun than the best D3 legendaries. That's the only point I'm trying to make. Also, I personally was a fan of "grants aura when equipped" and similar "OP" stats. I think adapting items like that to D3 ("While this legendary is equipped 2 random runes are applied to whatever skill you use", or "Chance to cast Sprint when hit" etc.) would go a long way towards making the itemization more meaningful. D2 had a lot of OP items, but still quite a few choices for every class depending on build and what you want.

    Quote from RITthePALLY

    Quote from Shad3slayer

    ^I already answered that a few posts up, but I'll c/p it for your convenience

    Uhm. Just the first 3 properties on that helm are incredibly strong and better than anything in D3. It's the equivalents of "Grants lvl xy aura when equipped" that was in Diablo 2. Why are properties like this not in RoS? Like, "grants Mantra of Evasion when equipped" on a Barbarian belt, or "Chance to cast Smoke Screen when hit" on item that all classes can use.

    The PoE item I linked has FLAVOR. It's incredibly powerful, but at the cost of not using chest armor. It gives 3 nearly max level effects to any skills you have equipped in it. That's incredibly strong. Just imagine a Legendary in Diablo 3 that would enable you to use a skill with 3 additional runes enabled. Plus flavor in the form of Extra Gore. Plus defense in the form of block chance. However Blizzard has shown a severe lack of imagination in this department sadly and has created 200 more generic legendaries, maybe 5-10 of those actually being useful and unique.


    Well Some items/sets in d3 RoS have added effects like "use all rune effects for X ability" as well as "use X ability with no cooldown" or "summon X until it dies" intead of it just being a very long CD it becomes a perma pet.

    Things like an amulet that grips all the enemies around you is a literal game changer in d3. Rings/set bonuses that give all 4 base auras at a time are also on the riduclous list.

    The synergy of items that give health globes on kills + class abilities of the WD that give more health globe drops + an item that has every health globe you pick up explode for X% damage. Makes for a devastating combo.


    I know SOME items seem good/ meaningful. But I'm afraid it's too little. It'll be very bad if D3V situation repeats itself and we have only 1 possible item per slot for every class, the only difference being what main stat it rolls (I'm paraphrasing, obviously, but you get my point). Which will obviously happen if 99% legendaries are generic/ pure shit and the remaining 1% is actually good (albeit only due to having a better single, orange property. Which is, again, stupid imho).

    Quote from Kung

    Quote from Shad3slayer

    But I've read quite a few comments (and even an article on diablo.incgamers) from which it seems that the paragon leveling is way too slow. For example an article I read stated that it took the guy 4 weeks! of playing to get a single paragon lvl (he was plvl 150 or so).


    so who has been able to play for 4 weeks now? even f&f beta is running for just a week now. and looking at xp charts it takes around 220mil xp to get from 150 to 151. this is the about the same amount as it is in vanilla to get fom 91 to 92. so even if somebody was able to play the game that long, it must have been for 10 minutes per day or so.

    i think the amounts are okay as they are right now, of course some fixing is still needed, but paragon 2.0 seems to be quite cool as it is right now.

    i like most of the "new" items or item effects. there are still many legendaries that didnt change or have crappy effects compared to others but im pretty sure that some or most of them are still subject to change.

    i've been watching kingkongor and archon streaming RoS now for several days and dificulty and droprates will definitely receive changes until release. they could boost all legendaries a bit more and multiply the droprate by 0.1 or something around that and it should feel better i think.

    i have to agree that the dificulty has to be settled higher, either by adding even more difficulty settings (which i would prefer) or by increasing the ones that are avaible right now. kingkongor is simply rushing through torment 6 at the moment and even for an experienced player like him who spends a lot more time playing than the average player, that was too fast and too easy.

    i'm still pretty hyped about RoS, enjoying tons of streams and considering that it's still in an extremely early beta stage i am quite confindent that those things will get fixed before release. maybe not all and/or maybe not to 100% but they will definitely improve further


    It's simple extrapolation my friend :) here is the article I referred to: http://diablo.incgam...ion#more-373279

    Quote from WarlockHolmez

    Agree with several points.

    I think what I'm most worried about (from watching streams) is the pace at which Torment VI becomes easy. When thinking about RoS, I mainly look forward to working through the difficulties with friends. To me, a character will feel somewhat complete once I can finish a Rift with relative ease on Torment VI. I want this to take time though, a couple hours a day for maybe two months or so might be perfect. I'd be happy to then focus on a new class, and occasionally come back to mess around with "finished" ones. That's over a year of gameplay right there.

    As far as items, I'm generally happy with what I see. The drop rates are way too high though. They could also be more "build changing" I suppose. The PoE item you linked seems to mainly just be "powerful" like you said, but not actually that build changing. I like the affix that doesn't allow you to wear a Chest piece though. There should be multiple legendary affixes on each legendary and there should be negative affixes as well. It would make choosing which ones to use more meaningful.

    I think we should be able to trade more than they are planning. I like the idea of third party sites no longer functioning, but not being able to trade with friends is huge to me. What if we're allowed to trade with anyone who we're already friends with when an item drops? That way you couldn't friend someone to make a trade, but could always trade with your real friends list. A time limit could be added if needed (1 week?).

    Lastly, rifts. They seem much better than current farming for sure. But they need to be more interesting and require more thought/planning. I like the idea of random affixes being attached to Rifts. The affixes could provide very strong motivation to try new builds and items to attack them with. The more difficult the affixes, the higher the rewards of the Rift. They need to be "build motivating" though, like:
    (To prevent you from abusing certain skills)
    -Monsters Reflect 1-99% (specific) Elemental damage.
    -Monsters have 1-99% (specific) Elemental resistance.
    -Monsters are twice as Fast and can't be Stunned.
    (To make item choices more interesting)
    -Monsters are immune to Critical Strikes.
    -(specific gems) have no effect in your gear.
    -Wielding a 2h (or 1h) weapon reduces your Movement Speed by 1-50%.

    Sorry for all the text. Just seemed like a decent place to discuss more ideas. Endgame "does" need help, I think all of these topics (difficulty of torment, trading with friends, negative affixes on legendaries, and Rift affixes) could be implemented relatively easily.


    I'm not too worried about Kripp and KingKongor steamrolling content already. They're using the most OP class and clearly imbalanced skills (I sincerely hope there's no way that Heavenly Strength passive makes it in the final game, as it's way more OP than Critical Mass or anything else ever) and as someone said, they're known to have no life/ be in the top 0.1% of the player base, so they're hardly relevant. For your average Joe even today's D3V is too hard.

    EDIT: And I wholeheartedly agree that legendaries should have MORE THAN 1 distinguishing property on them!!!!!!!!!! That's the core of the problem. You can't make them meaningful/ good/ deep if the only difference between 200 different legendaries is a single orange stat.
  • #50
    Worse? Only time will tell...

    Shorter? If drop ratios and Smart Drops stay even remotely similar to what they are currently, yeah...

    It probably will feel very good at first, finding upgrades "omg look at this AWESOMESAUCE item"... but judging from what we've seen after a couple weeks (yes, I'd say 3-6 weeks) people are gonna hit that same starving period, with no good items ever, and they'll start finding awesome Legendaries that they want to use, but with shitty stats, and we'll probably see a lot of complaints...

    I don't know... let's see what the next few months have in store for us.
  • #51
    Quote from Zero(pS)

    Worse? Only time will tell...

    Shorter? If drop ratios and Smart Drops stay even remotely similar to what they are currently, yeah...

    It probably will feel very good at first, finding upgrades "omg look at this AWESOMESAUCE item"... but judging from what we've seen after a couple weeks (yes, I'd say 3-6 weeks) people are gonna hit that same starving period, with no good items ever, and they'll start finding awesome Legendaries that they want to use, but with shitty stats, and we'll probably see a lot of complaints...

    I don't know... let's see what the next few months have in store for us.


    I honestly don't think it can get any worse than what we have right now, and that's coming from someone who enjoys playing still. Right now we have what ubers and paragon leveling? They are at least trying to give us more options for the grind instead of Act 1 over and over. I hope they have set the drop rate and smart drop somewhat high for testing. If not then its going to be right back to where we are right now. Im waiting for a closed/public beta before passing judgement, but so far from what Ive seen RoS the end game is a lot better than D3v.
  • #52
    Quote from m80thewolf

    but so far from what Ive seen RoS the end game is a lot better than D3v.


    Yeah, I'm struggling with how anyone could think the general philosophy shift from "farming" to Bounties and Rifts, coupled with Adventure Mode (people have been asking for free-movement between all acts, all WPs, with bosses up for HOW LONG?) is not a massive step forward from what we currently have. Adventure Mode alone is huge, honestly, as it brings back something that most of the community agreed was a strong point in D2 that was eliminated in D3 and it allows the utmost flexibility in how we actually play the game.

    Now instead of choosing between Act 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 we can do what we want, where we want. That one single change is enough to make "endgame" in RoS better than classic/vanilla.
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  • #53
    Simply never having to hear Azmodan or that stupid spider talk again is a vast improvement tbh

    Interesting patch notes by the way, reward rebalancing was badly needed, along with the removal of those immunity rings that trivialized defenses. Tiny step forward!
  • #54
    I have to admit, though 2.0 Legs are a huge step forward, that isn't necessarily saying much. If we were starving, we would look at a bowl of rice as a god damn feast.

    I like the general idea of many of the 'special' properties attached to Legs. However, there still seems to be a lack of out-of-the-box thinking.

    Heavily boosted numbers become a wash when we notice the monsters also have heavily boosted numbers.

    I was hoping to see Legs with 'special' properties + a line of insane, dynamic boosts. i.e.

    +20% armor
    Attack Speed increase X% for 5 seconds after hit.
    Fatal Damage received restores life to 35% (Cool down 2 min)
    Ignore Target Defense

    Gimme a series of lines like that and I could care less if the item had main stat/vita.

    Only 1 special property. Same 'ol linear stat lines. Boosted numbers creating the illusion of power. No Charms. Only one new gem/socketable. FAR fewer new skills/runes across all classes than I expected.

    I get the impression that Blizz seems hesitant to really trick out our items. Love the improvements, but they could do so much better than this. I feel it is a terrible mistake to adhere to this bizarre self-imposed limit of only 1 special property per Leg item.
  • #55
    Quote from ruksak

    Only 1 special property. Same 'ol linear stat lines. Boosted numbers creating the illusion of power.


    Agreed. It'd be nice to see another special property or two. I would like to see rares with more interesting affixes too. Not "Legendary" affixes, but still affixes that can be part of a build.

    I would also really like to see negative affixes on many Legendaries. At the moment it seems, the more legendaries you can equip the better. There should be trade offs to their power, and reasons to equip rares even if you have a legendary for the same slot.

    Example thoughts:
    • Increases your Fire damage by 50%. Reduces your non-Fire Elemental Damage by 50%.
    • Increase Attack Speed by 30%. Reduce your Maximum Health by 10%.
    • 1h Weapon: Increases your Physical Damage with all attacks by 15%. Can only be equipped with a Shield.
    • Chest Piece: For each gem type socketed in this item, gain 100 Resist All. Each gem type in this item has no effect in your other gear slots.
  • #56
    Don't forget alot of the crusaders currently raping their way through Torment VI are using that broken Heavens Fury rune, it'll be interesting to see if they can still roll QUITE as easily now it's been fixed ;)
  • #57
    Just gonna leave this here to defend the OP:
    In terms of the item he linked, the helm provides 3 skill supports and the maximum amount of sockets in the helm is 4. that adds up to 1 skill + 6 supports. The maximum you could do otherwise with chest / weapon is 1 skill + 5 supports. This makes it extremely powerful and, combined with the correct supports and skill, would make way for an extremely defensive but high damage dealing melee character. Those that called this boring would be correct if this was a D3 item but given the way that things work in PoE (passives, skills, supports) this is one hell of an item.

    Now for what i have to say about the legendaries:

    Every 'overpowered' ability should have its price. For example, if D3 should have a cold immunity ring, the tradeoff should be that you take double fire damage or something similar. You can't just make something overpowered without tradeoff because it then works with all builds, accomplishing nothing.
    Tradeoffs will encourage build diversity, as there should be a push and pull of advantages and disadvantages between your legendaries and your abilities when building a spec. Otherwise, why use different gear than a witch doctor on a wizard? You have OP int gear on your Witch doctor, you can just chuck it over at your wizard and it works just as well.
    This is dumb.
    Force the player to think about how they can make the gear fit the spec. This is the only way they can ever make this interesting in my opinion.

    As for rifts, they need flavour. Let's say there's random puddles of poison in the rift or fire falls from the sky or all the monsters move twice as fast! That would be interesting. Right now it's no better than just farming the act. I know it's only beta so I'm hoping for some innovation here later on. Also... Exclusive loot tables should be all over this stuff!

    Bounties they got right already. Go out and find stuff, kill it, get rewards. Great! Step in the right direction. Could use some more interesting objectives and bosses but the fundamentals are there. There also needs to be an exclusive loot table for this.

    Ladders! NEEDS. MOAR. LADDERS.
    Why are we still waiting for this? Starting new characters for ladders every few days / weeks / months is absolutely the best thing they could do! With the way that legendaries drop in RoS and the diversity in farm techniques, it would make short ladders extremely interesting and fun. I cannot fathom why they are not doing this and it is what keeps me from playing D3 right now. I'd be on there all the time if we had short (1-8 hour), week-long ladders and 6 month ladders.

    All in all, I think they need to put a hell of a lot of work into the legendary design and rift diversity but everything else looks great.
    All in all I say no, the end-game is not going to be worse but it might not be what you want it to be. Those of us who have played PoE are mostly spoilt by it and it is easy to ignore the good things about D3 because of this. So let's not get too carried away with comparisons. There are some things each game does better than the other.
  • #58
    How can something be worse than something that doesn't exist? I stopped reading after the title.
  • #59
    The drop rates are elevated so the items drop enough to actually be experimented with. Progression is thereby enhanced at an alarming rate. So at least take that into consideration as well.
  • #60
    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from m80thewolf

    but so far from what Ive seen RoS the end game is a lot better than D3v.


    Yeah, I'm struggling with how anyone could think the general philosophy shift from "farming" to Bounties and Rifts, coupled with Adventure Mode (people have been asking for free-movement between all acts, all WPs, with bosses up for HOW LONG?) is not a massive step forward from what we currently have. Adventure Mode alone is huge, honestly, as it brings back something that most of the community agreed was a strong point in D2 that was eliminated in D3 and it allows the utmost flexibility in how we actually play the game.

    Now instead of choosing between Act 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 we can do what we want, where we want. That one single change is enough to make "endgame" in RoS better than classic/vanilla.


    I like it in Theory of course (as does nearly 100% of the playerbase I'd guess), but I'm afraid that there'll (again) be a few best areas with good density and many ghost town areas. I read somewhere already that the monster density in general is much less than in D3V on mp1+ atm. Which is horrible, as the density change was the single change in past year and a half that kept me playing for more than a month.

    Quote from itirnitii

    The drop rates are elevated so the items drop enough to actually be experimented with. Progression is thereby enhanced at an alarming rate. So at least take that into consideration as well.


    Why does everyone keep saying this? Is there any official info about elevated drop rates? Doesn't seem plausible to me. As I said before a few times, seems to me it's an argument that people would use when they're unhappy about something, but can't bring themselves to accept it :P Such as "it's beta, it'll ALL change and all be perfect at release". That said, drop rates will probably be tuned before launch, but I don't think they're elevated on purpose, it's probably just an early iteration and they're checking how it works out.
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