Difference between ladder and non-ladder

  • #1
    Hello everyone,

    I was wondering what would be the difference between ladder and non-ladder. Because in D2 there was a difference between these to (for example you could make some ''runewords'' on ladder like Spirit witch you could not make in the non-ladder system).
    What do you guys think will happen in the new upcoming ladder system?

    Blackybear#1770
  • #2
    with the lack of runes and as far as i know, no plan of implementing them, my guess is, that if they are to implement something into the ladder which wont be possible to obtain from just playing normal, its going to have to be some legendary item(s).

    Hard to say if they will acctually do that tho, since the name of the game these days is to please as many people as possible, and the average casual joe aint gonna play ladder.

    so in the first months of the game when everyone comes back and we get 10m+ players again, i think ladder will just be a fresh start.
    when the game calms down abit i think they may add some sort of unique reward for playing ladder
    something that you cannot obtain in normal play.
  • #3
    We had a heated debate on that recently: http://www.diablofans.com/topic/103168-use-non-ladder-gear-on-ladder/

    Summary:
    • Most people who like ladder want additional incentives such as ladder-only gear.
    • Most people who don't like ladder feel they would be forced to play a game mode they don't like if the ladder has additional rewards. (It's like as if hardcore had some special items with 3% crit more.)
    The question is if people want ladder for the sake of having ladder-only items or if people want ladder for the competitive aspect. For Blizzard the question is if they want to force everyone into ladder (which would make economy balancing a lot easier since you have a reset button every now and then).
  • #4
    My hopes is that the only thing ladder will be displayed is total paragon level and perhaps total elite or boss kills at a certain Difficulty level.

    But that they will add in Seasonal ladders that will have your own old character but you just chase a goal for some month(s) for example. kill goblins, bosses, paragon experience, gold collected of the ground, legendary picked up, level 1-cap in least time solo. ect

    or i can do with full reset but i don't wanna play thought the game 2-4(Norm,NM,Hell) times just to get to the level cap just to get to the content for the challenge or ladder. seems pointless to play trought the game 2-4 times before i can start playing. if i however get a max level character with some basic gear to start grinding the content from.

    But im guessing a more casual approach with the ladder and seasonal system in RoS. with prices for top% (1%, 2.5%, 5%, 10%, 25%, 50% perhaps.and different kinds of challenges running from 1 week to 2 months.
  • #5
    I'm sure if you've seen my name in a thread.You've probably heard my thoughts on the ladders.

    I think there will be 1 perpetual paragon ladder that all characters are apart of. The exception being those that are in the current seasonal ladder which is a complete reset, clvl1,plvl0,0 items. This seasonal ladder will reset after X time, at which point the paragon experience gets dumped into the perpetual paragon ladder.

    The incentive for playing the seasonal ladder is in the fact that you would enjoy a fresh start. I believe that is all it needs to be. You can't add seasonal rewards that are anything more than a cosmetic thing (ala poe) and expect to please the majority of your player base. You force people into playing something they may not want as if that isn't bad enough. They would also be undermining the entire paragon 2.0 system. It's just not a logical move for Blizzard.


    I may very well be wrong, but I would consider it illogical of them to force people to use a system that doesn't benefit from the paragon 2.0 system. I also do not expect people to want to play every ladder reset. This isn't d2 where the economy is destroyed.

    In Path of Exile they have a similar "problem" as d3 with the economy. There's just inflation, it's a small problem really because in the grand scheme of things the average quality of gear goes up as the value of currency decreases. Besides Blizzard has the opportunity to reset the economy with RoS. Removing the AH has a big effect on the common currency.

    Anyway, under this system it's not uncommon to see people play the set duration leagues which are anywhere from 1 week to 4 months. Then go back to the permanent softcore or hardcore league, skipping out on the next round of set duration leagues.

    I think RoS will be like that for a lot of people. There will be those times you feel like starting fresh, maybe you are competing on a short term ladder for #1. But then there will be times that you want to get paragon 800+ or that you want to compete on the overall paragon ladder.

    Because of what I've seen in PoE and how I expect the ladder systems to work in RoS. I think everyone will dabble in the other despite how they feel right now.
  • #6
    Quote from Bagstone
    • Most people who like ladder want additional incentives such as ladder-only gear.


    Put me in this camp, though special items are not the reason, why I want a ladder system. I want this reset every now and then. Sure, I could start fresh on my own whenever I feel like it, but it's more fun, when everybody starts fresh at the same time.

    On a side note, has anyone wondered, how they'll deal with character slots? I mean, they have to be stored somewhere and if I create 12 (assuming that's the new cap) characters in season 2, what would happen to my season 1 chars?

    And please Blizzard, for all that is good, don't just reset parts of the game, like for example p-exp. That'd be lame beyond belief ;)
    I apologize for any formating issues in my posts, I just can't use the new editor.Currently playing Magic 2014, see my thread:http://www.diablofans.com/topic/97565-magic-2014/
    Also, if you like Classics, try:Dungeons and Dragons Anthology ( http://www.gamersgat...ster-collection )
  • #7
    Quote from Solmyr77

    Quote from Bagstone
    • Most people who like ladder want additional incentives such as ladder-only gear.


    Put me in this camp, though special items are not the reason, why I want a ladder system. I want this reset every now and then. Sure, I could start fresh on my own whenever I feel like it, but it's more fun, when everybody starts fresh at the same time.

    On a side note, has anyone wondered, how they'll deal with character slots? I mean, they have to be stored somewhere and if I create 12 (assuming that's the new cap) characters in season 2, what would happen to my season 1 chars?

    And please Blizzard, for all that is good, don't just reset parts of the game, like for example p-exp. That'd be lame beyond belief ;)


    I am actually wondering if they are going to add microtransactions for character slots and even stash space. With the removal of the AH and the addition of transmog. I can see them going to microtransactions. Besides it's a successful business model on its own and good for everyone provided you can't buy power. (pay-2-win)
  • #8
    Quote from riptide

    Quote from Solmyr77

    Quote from Bagstone
    • Most people who like ladder want additional incentives such as ladder-only gear.


    Put me in this camp, though special items are not the reason, why I want a ladder system. I want this reset every now and then. Sure, I could start fresh on my own whenever I feel like it, but it's more fun, when everybody starts fresh at the same time.

    On a side note, has anyone wondered, how they'll deal with character slots? I mean, they have to be stored somewhere and if I create 12 (assuming that's the new cap) characters in season 2, what would happen to my season 1 chars?

    And please Blizzard, for all that is good, don't just reset parts of the game, like for example p-exp. That'd be lame beyond belief ;)


    I am actually wondering if they are going to add microtransactions for character slots and even stash space. With the removal of the AH and the addition of transmog. I can see them going to microtransactions. Besides it's a successful business model on its own and good for everyone provided you can't buy power. (pay-2-win)


    don´t think so, usually that sort of thing is frowned on outside of f2p games.
    i mean when you pay 40-50 euro for a game you expect to get the whole thing.
    the rmah was sketchy enough as it is.

    i mean ive got my 10 slots used up, when i get the expansion i don´t want to have to start deleting chars just to play ladder.
  • #9
    Quote from riptide

    Quote from Solmyr77

    Quote from Bagstone
    • Most people who like ladder want additional incentives such as ladder-only gear.


    Put me in this camp, though special items are not the reason, why I want a ladder system. I want this reset every now and then. Sure, I could start fresh on my own whenever I feel like it, but it's more fun, when everybody starts fresh at the same time.

    On a side note, has anyone wondered, how they'll deal with character slots? I mean, they have to be stored somewhere and if I create 12 (assuming that's the new cap) characters in season 2, what would happen to my season 1 chars?

    And please Blizzard, for all that is good, don't just reset parts of the game, like for example p-exp. That'd be lame beyond belief ;)


    I am actually wondering if they are going to add microtransactions for character slots and even stash space. With the removal of the AH and the addition of transmog. I can see them going to microtransactions. Besides it's a successful business model on its own and good for everyone provided you can't buy power. (pay-2-win)


    It's sad when players present microtransactions by themselves as a solution. It seems the companies won this war, and players are asking to pay more.
    I remember the days when I played online games and everything was free (excepted for the game in the first place) and I could use every option the game had (ladder, etc...) without having to pay an extra because I reached a extremely limited number of characters...

    Paying more for extra content, why not, but paying more because the number of characters is too small in the first place, no !
  • #10
    Quote from Vulmio

    Quote from riptide

    Quote from Solmyr77

    Quote from Bagstone
    • Most people who like ladder want additional incentives such as ladder-only gear.


    Put me in this camp, though special items are not the reason, why I want a ladder system. I want this reset every now and then. Sure, I could start fresh on my own whenever I feel like it, but it's more fun, when everybody starts fresh at the same time.

    On a side note, has anyone wondered, how they'll deal with character slots? I mean, they have to be stored somewhere and if I create 12 (assuming that's the new cap) characters in season 2, what would happen to my season 1 chars?

    And please Blizzard, for all that is good, don't just reset parts of the game, like for example p-exp. That'd be lame beyond belief ;)


    I am actually wondering if they are going to add microtransactions for character slots and even stash space. With the removal of the AH and the addition of transmog. I can see them going to microtransactions. Besides it's a successful business model on its own and good for everyone provided you can't buy power. (pay-2-win)


    It's sad when players present microtransactions by themselves as a solution. It seems the companies won this war, and players are asking to pay more.
    I remember the days when I played online games and everything was free (excepted for the game in the first place) and I could use every option the game had (ladder, etc...) without having to pay an extra because I reached a extremely limited number of characters...

    Paying more for extra content, why not, but paying more because the number of characters is too small in the first place, no !


    Nothing is sad about it. The beauty of microtransactions, if done right, is that it's optional. I think I've spent more in PoE(a 100% free to play game)than any game, several times over, just because I wanted to support GGG. I saw some patch notes that made me happy and felt like they really listened to the community and decided to give them money on more than one occasion.

    NCsoft/ArenaNet with Guild Wars(the first), proved how microtransactions improve the total experience, even for those that didn't partake in microtransactions. How do you think they managed to provide weekly patches and frequent content patches for 7 years with a small player base? They added more content than Blizzard added in D2 in the same time frame with much more support across the board. Keep in mind they had a lot less resources than Blizzard did too.

    Now if your concern is companies forcing microtransactions down our throat or pay-to-win. I agree it's an awful thing. But otherwise, I think microtransactions are a better business model than the retail box. Players that can afford it, do pay significantly more than they would otherwise. While those that can't afford it still benefit from the support the company gets. It promotes a listen to the community environment from a business standpoint.
  • #11
    Quote from riptide

    Quote from Vulmio

    Quote from riptide

    I am actually wondering if they are going to add microtransactions for character slots and even stash space. With the removal of the AH and the addition of transmog. I can see them going to microtransactions. Besides it's a successful business model on its own and good for everyone provided you can't buy power. (pay-2-win)


    It's sad when players present microtransactions by themselves as a solution. It seems the companies won this war, and players are asking to pay more.
    I remember the days when I played online games and everything was free (excepted for the game in the first place) and I could use every option the game had (ladder, etc...) without having to pay an extra because I reached a extremely limited number of characters...

    Paying more for extra content, why not, but paying more because the number of characters is too small in the first place, no !


    Nothing is sad about it. The beauty of microtransactions, if done right, is that it's optional. I think I've spent more in PoE(a 100% free to play game)than any game, several times over, just because I wanted to support GGG. I saw some patch notes that made me happy and felt like they really listened to the community and decided to give them money on more than one occasion.

    NCsoft/ArenaNet with Guild Wars(the first), proved how microtransactions improve the total experience, even for those that didn't partake in microtransactions. How do you think they managed to provide weekly patches and frequent content patches for 7 years with a small player base? They added more content than Blizzard added in D2 in the same time frame with much more support across the board. Keep in mind they had a lot less resources than Blizzard did too.

    Now if your concern is companies forcing microtransactions down our throat or pay-to-win. I agree it's an awful thing. But otherwise, I think microtransactions are a better business model than the retail box. Players that can afford it, do pay significantly more than they would otherwise. While those that can't afford it still benefit from the support the company gets. It promotes a listen to the community environment from a business standpoint.


    Having to choose between deleting a character or paying is a very interesting option ! It's much worse than pay to win for me because I won't ever pay to get items because I can hope to get them by playing the game and I don't consider D3 to be a really competitive game.
    Having to choose between deleting a character or paying in order to use the new game mode (that I already payed for by buying the xpack), affects me directly though.
    Why not just 5 character slots and if you want multiple characters for both SC and HC you buy character slots, isn't it too much, even for you, at some point ?

    Again, I'm not talking about additional content (paying for optional additional content is a great thing, as long as the main game is worth it by itself), but the possibility to play the new content I already payed for (by buying the xpack) without deleting my existing characters (this is probably not "forcing" microtransactions as you meant it, but really close in my opinion).
  • #12
    Quote from Vulmio



    Having to choose between deleting a character or paying is a very interesting option ! It's much worse than pay to win for me because I won't ever pay to get items because I can hope to get them by playing the game and I don't consider D3 to be a really competitive game.
    Having to choose between deleting a character or paying in order to use the new game mode (that I already payed for by buying the xpack), affects me directly though.
    Why not just 5 character slots and if you want multiple characters for both SC and HC you buy character slots, isn't it too much, even for you, at some point ?

    Again, I'm not talking about additional content (paying for optional additional content is a great thing, as long as the main game is worth it by itself), but the possibility to play the new content I already payed for (by buying the xpack) without deleting my existing characters (this is probably not "forcing" microtransactions as you meant it, but really close in my opinion).


    They have already said they are adding character slots, you can count on at least 2. But with the introduction of the ladder it may be even more than that.

    My statement wasn't PLEASE MAKE ME PAY FOR CHAR SLOTS. I just wouldn't be surprised with microtransactions being introduced that gave us additional char slots, stash space, as well as cosmetics with the transmog system. Because at the end of the day they are just conveniences or novelties to us and Blizzard is a business.


    Btw the amount of people that actually play all 10 char slots are few and far between. So I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing if you have to delete a mule to have your ladder character get dumped into w/e league you play. Besides how many of each class do you need? The people I know that play hardcore, to the point of progressing a character, don't really play softcore since they made the switch.


    If you were dedicated enough to have 6 hc and 6 sc chars, you'd be dedicated enough to spend a dollar for 1 more character slot. If you happened to have 12 SC or HC chars with 1 female and 1 male, then you have even less to worry about. You would just have to wait until the seasonal ladder ends for your sex change.

    I mean, I already swap everything I can between my DH/Monk and my WD/Wiz. The exception being weapons/helms. Why would you possibly want an entire gearset from ladder dumped into permanent league for a class you already had, on a place where you're probably more wealthy? Even if you did want that, you would already have that class and don't need 2-3 of them. You could just take your permanent league character's gear and put it in the stash, then delete the character, right before the seasonal char gets dumped.

  • #13
    Quote from riptide

    Blizzard is a business.


    I think this should be the second Godwin's Law when talking about a client/seller relationship . You win ! I don't have any other counter argument to this ! "X is a business" therefore everything they do is fine as long as they can make more money !
  • #14
    Quote from Vulmio

    I remember the days when I played online games and everything was free (excepted for the game in the first place) and I could use every option the game had (ladder, etc...) without having to pay an extra because I reached a extremely limited number of characters...


    The days when your toons were deleted every 90 days because server space is in fact finite and costs money? (And by the way you had to make extra accounts to go over 8 toons?) Or the days when it was all stored locally on your own computer and cheating made public online RPG gaming unbearable?

    As someone who comes and goes from the game, I much prefer this model. So many times I had an urge to try D2 realms again, I didn't bother because my characters were gone, and I knew starting up new ones would just get them wiped again at some point. Just think how less exciting the expansion would be to lapsed players if they can't jump straight into act 5 with their old toons. I don't know if microtransactions are the solution, but infinite vanishing slots/accounts is not, nor is infinite permanent slots remotely realistic.
  • #15
    Quote from riptide

    Nothing is sad about it. The beauty of microtransactions, if done right, is that it's optional. I think I've spent more in PoE(a 100% free to play game)than any game, several times over, just because I wanted to support GGG.


    I already paid Blizzard for the game. Therefore, I expect microtransactions to be cosmetic, like they are in WoW. If I need to purchase more character slots... after already having purchased the game... that's a major problem. My $60 should allow me to play the game properly, the same as everyone else.

    PoE doesn't cost anything to play, therefore they have much more freedom (IMO) with what they can add as a microtransaction. Because D3 costs to purchase the box, fans are going to have much larger expectations as to what is free content and what is microtransaction content.

    Quote from FoxBatD2

    The days when your toons were deleted every 90 days because server space is in fact finite and costs money?


    Server space was a much bigger concern (as was bandwidth) in 1999 than it is in 2013. While I'm not advocating for INFINITE characters - I don't actually think anyone would advocate for that, cause it's pretty stupid - I don't think that having some leeway (more than just two of each class) is some kind of a convenience with ladders that should be solved by us forking over more $$$, but an outright necessity.
    67.1k elite kills :: 1.98m total kills :: p255
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  • #16
    Quote from FoxBatD2

    Quote from Vulmio

    I remember the days when I played online games and everything was free (excepted for the game in the first place) and I could use every option the game had (ladder, etc...) without having to pay an extra because I reached a extremely limited number of characters...


    The days when your toons were deleted every 90 days because server space is in fact finite and costs money? (And by the way you had to make extra accounts to go over 8 toons?) Or the days when it was all stored locally on your own computer and cheating made public online RPG gaming unbearable?

    As someone who comes and goes from the game, I much prefer this model. So many times I had an urge to try D2 realms again, I didn't bother because my characters were gone, and I knew starting up new ones would just get them wiped again at some point. Just think how less exciting the expansion would be to lapsed players if they can't jump straight into act 5 with their old toons. I don't know if microtransactions are the solution, but infinite vanishing slots/accounts is not, nor is infinite permanent slots remotely realistic.


    So as a counter argument, you present an even worst situation ? Characters were deleted because we could create an infinite number of characters by creating an infinite number of accounts. I'm just asking to get a few new characters slots dedicated for the ladder mode IF this mode is even created...
  • #17
    Quote from FoxBatD2


    As someone who comes and goes from the game (...)


    Key phrase right here.
  • #18
    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from riptide

    Nothing is sad about it. The beauty of microtransactions, if done right, is that it's optional. I think I've spent more in PoE(a 100% free to play game)than any game, several times over, just because I wanted to support GGG.


    I already paid Blizzard for the game. Therefore, I expect microtransactions to be cosmetic, like they are in WoW. If I need to purchase more character slots... after already having purchased the game... that's a major problem. My $60 should allow me to play the game properly, the same as everyone else.

    PoE doesn't cost anything to play, therefore they have much more freedom (IMO) with what they can add as a microtransaction. Because D3 costs to purchase the box, fans are going to have much larger expectations as to what is free content and what is microtransaction content.


    Just incase you missed it the first time.

    "If you were dedicated enough to have 6 hc and 6 sc chars, you'd be dedicated enough to spend a dollar for 1 more character slot. If you happened to have 12 SC or HC chars with 1 female and 1 male, then you have even less to worry about. You would just have to wait until the seasonal ladder ends for your sex change."


    For the record people paid for $50.00 guild wars and only had 4 or 5 char slots, but I don't recall any outcries about character slots being microtransactions. And that game was a lot more diverse in builds and permanence.


    Gaming is one of the cheapest hobbies there is, if you can manage to get over 1000 hours of entertainment out of it. It's worth more than 60.00, regardless of what it actually sells for. Hell even at 500 hours it's what? 12 cents an hour? Talk about self-entitlement.

    Again, I'm not advocating that they force microtransactions on anybody. As I said that's just not right. But we're talking about unnecessary conveniences that cost the company to maintain.


    Quote from maka

    Quote from FoxBatD2


    As someone who comes and goes from the game (...)


    Key phrase right here.


    Hate to break it to you, but he just described the majority of the playerbase.
  • #19
    Quote from riptide

    Quote from maka

    Quote from FoxBatD2

    As someone who comes and goes from the game (...)


    Key phrase right here.


    Hate to break it to you, but he just described the majority of the playerbase.


    Source, please?
    What do you mean by "playerbase"? Do you mean people that bought the boxed version? If so, most of those people won't ever play the game again, so obviously they shouldn't even be considered when thinking about solutions for the map.
  • #20
    Quote from maka

    Quote from riptide

    Quote from maka

    Quote from FoxBatD2

    As someone who comes and goes from the game (...)


    Key phrase right here.


    Hate to break it to you, but he just described the majority of the playerbase.


    Source, please?
    What do you mean by "playerbase"? Do you mean people that bought the boxed version? If so, most of those people won't ever play the game again, so obviously they shouldn't even be considered when thinking about solutions for the map.



    What are you even talking about? What map? He was talking about another issue entirely... it was about character slots and the auto deletion mechanic in d2.

    And yes the majority of players to ever play diablo 2 "come and go" as in nobody plays from inception of ladder until now. Not even you. I would be shocked if there was a single person in the world to play d2 everyday since launch and not take extended breaks. Let alone the majority.

    It will be the same for d3 in 10 years, hell it already is for my entire friends list of people that have d3.

    Source? How about experience(even your own experience) and logic?
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