Let's Talk About Paragon 2.0 - Travis Day

  • #41
    Hi, I'm a little worried about the paragon 2.0 system. Let me explain. I'm a hardcore only player so my characters die from time to time due to whatever reason. I reached a point now where every new toon I reroll facerolls to inferno in no-time. I mostly enjoy rerolling so I can test new skills as they come available during level progress. Anyways, what I was saying is that every toon I reroll hits the max level with ease and after that starts to earn paragon XP. In the new situation all this (after lvl 70) XP adds to the global paragon pool. This global paragon XP pool will grow during time and so the available paragon points will grow during times wich can be respecced at any time.

    What happens if a few current characters die in hardcore? When I reroll a new toon, can I spend all those lost paragon points to my new lvl 1 character? Everybody knows on low lvl a few core stat points can make a very big difference. This feels like a flaw in the system for me. I hope this is getting addressed or am I missing some information?

    Also, all my current 10 character slots have their function at this moment. I suppose by getting the expansion (with the Crusader character) you also get at least 2 extra character slots. I didn't read anything about that yet. Anyone else did?


    Kind regards,
    BetterRun
    In God we trust, all others bring data!
  • #42
    Quote from MetBosui

    Hi, I'm a little worried about the paragon 2.0 system. Let me explain. I'm a hardcore only player so my characters die from time to time due to whatever reason. I reached a point now where every new toon I reroll facerolls to inferno in no-time. I mostly enjoy rerolling so I can test new skills as they come available during level progress. Anyways, what I was saying is that every toon I reroll hits the max level with ease and after that starts to earn paragon XP. In the new situation all this (after lvl 70) XP adds to the global paragon pool. This global paragon XP pool will grow during time and so the available paragon points will grow during times wich can be respecced at any time.

    What happens if a few current characters die in hardcore? When I reroll a new toon, can I spend all those lost paragon points to my new lvl 1 character? Everybody knows on low lvl a few core stat points can make a very big difference. This feels like a flaw in the system for me. I hope this is getting addressed or am I missing some information?

    Also, all my current 10 character slots have their function at this moment. I suppose by getting the expansion (with the Crusader character) you also get at least 2 extra character slots. I didn't read anything about that yet. Anyone else did?


    Kind regards,
    BetterRun


    They have acknowledged in blue posts that paragon 2.0 has made the hardcore experience fundamentally safer by making the punishment for death less severe. When you character dies in the new paragon system, you will no longer be losing all the paragon experience gained by that character. The only thing you lose is the gear on that character and the time spent getting it back up to max level. The attitude from the couple blue posts I have seen is that they know this is the mechanic and it will be working as intended. But, as all things with the expansion and loot/paragon 2.0 go things are subject to change.
  • #43
    Quote from Indimix

    Stop acting like a fan and use your brain for a moment, shall we.


    Really? You want to drag this discussion in that direction?

    Quote from Indimix

    If they force us to put points in predetermined places, it's because if not, we would put all points in DPS.

    The problem lies in the fact that there is an obvious choice, if DPS is more important than anything else, then that is what needs to be addressed.

    Same goes for trifecta items.


    But how, exactly, do you 'address' the issue that D3's difficultly scales high enough for DPS to remain a relevant concern for so long without resorting to insane crap like making Vit a DPS stat, or making CrC carry a -armor penality?

    Blizzard's doing the right thing (and indeed a similar thing to what they did with WoW talents), because they know that otherwise people will just go to a website that tells them "For your current build, you should max stat x, then stat y, then stat z.". Plenty of 'theoretical' freedom, but it consists of a multitude of 'bad' choices and one 'good' choice. By making us pick one stat from each category, I'm sure the DPS and mainstat picks will be mathed out well in advance, but the other two categories will have actual freedom. I prefer that to the illusion of freedom any day.
  • #44
    Quote from itirnitii

    Quote from MetBosui

    Hi, I'm a little worried about the paragon 2.0 system. Let me explain. I'm a hardcore only player so my characters die from time to time due to whatever reason. I reached a point now where every new toon I reroll facerolls to inferno in no-time. I mostly enjoy rerolling so I can test new skills as they come available during level progress. Anyways, what I was saying is that every toon I reroll hits the max level with ease and after that starts to earn paragon XP. In the new situation all this (after lvl 70) XP adds to the global paragon pool. This global paragon XP pool will grow during time and so the available paragon points will grow during times wich can be respecced at any time.

    What happens if a few current characters die in hardcore? When I reroll a new toon, can I spend all those lost paragon points to my new lvl 1 character? Everybody knows on low lvl a few core stat points can make a very big difference. This feels like a flaw in the system for me. I hope this is getting addressed or am I missing some information?

    Also, all my current 10 character slots have their function at this moment. I suppose by getting the expansion (with the Crusader character) you also get at least 2 extra character slots. I didn't read anything about that yet. Anyone else did?


    Kind regards,
    BetterRun


    They have acknowledged in blue posts that paragon 2.0 has made the hardcore experience fundamentally safer by making the punishment for death less severe. When you character dies in the new paragon system, you will no longer be losing all the paragon experience gained by that character. The only thing you lose is the gear on that character and the time spent getting it back up to max level. The attitude from the couple blue posts I have seen is that they know this is the mechanic and it will be working as intended. But, as all things with the expansion and loot/paragon 2.0 go things are subject to change.


    It's pretty logical that you don't lose paragon exp when dieing with a HC char. I mean, what if you died? and your level was "downgraded"? Your paragon 60 dies and the next best you have is 30. Would you lose the last 30 points you spent? I don't see this as a suprise and I'm glad they confirmed it.
    Make your peace...Quickly!
  • #45
    Quote from MetBosui

    Hi, I'm a little worried about the paragon 2.0 system. Let me explain. I'm a hardcore only player so my characters die from time to time due to whatever reason. I reached a point now where every new toon I reroll facerolls to inferno in no-time. I mostly enjoy rerolling so I can test new skills as they come available during level progress. Anyways, what I was saying is that every toon I reroll hits the max level with ease and after that starts to earn paragon XP. In the new situation all this (after lvl 70) XP adds to the global paragon pool. This global paragon XP pool will grow during time and so the available paragon points will grow during times wich can be respecced at any time.

    What happens if a few current characters die in hardcore? When I reroll a new toon, can I spend all those lost paragon points to my new lvl 1 character? Everybody knows on low lvl a few core stat points can make a very big difference. This feels like a flaw in the system for me. I hope this is getting addressed or am I missing some information?

    Also, all my current 10 character slots have their function at this moment. I suppose by getting the expansion (with the Crusader character) you also get at least 2 extra character slots. I didn't read anything about that yet. Anyone else did?


    Kind regards,
    BetterRun


    Right now that is how the system works. But I do believe this is a topic they will easily cave on with feedback during the beta. It would be very easy to make paragon points inaccessible until max level. In fact I think this is the best way to handle it because the only people that are constantly rerolling ARE hardcore players.

  • #46
    Quote from Elendiro

    Quote from itirnitii

    Quote from MetBosui

    Hi, I'm a little worried about the paragon 2.0 system. Let me explain. I'm a hardcore only player so my characters die from time to time due to whatever reason. I reached a point now where every new toon I reroll facerolls to inferno in no-time. I mostly enjoy rerolling so I can test new skills as they come available during level progress. Anyways, what I was saying is that every toon I reroll hits the max level with ease and after that starts to earn paragon XP. In the new situation all this (after lvl 70) XP adds to the global paragon pool. This global paragon XP pool will grow during time and so the available paragon points will grow during times wich can be respecced at any time.

    What happens if a few current characters die in hardcore? When I reroll a new toon, can I spend all those lost paragon points to my new lvl 1 character? Everybody knows on low lvl a few core stat points can make a very big difference. This feels like a flaw in the system for me. I hope this is getting addressed or am I missing some information?

    Also, all my current 10 character slots have their function at this moment. I suppose by getting the expansion (with the Crusader character) you also get at least 2 extra character slots. I didn't read anything about that yet. Anyone else did?


    Kind regards,
    BetterRun


    They have acknowledged in blue posts that paragon 2.0 has made the hardcore experience fundamentally safer by making the punishment for death less severe. When you character dies in the new paragon system, you will no longer be losing all the paragon experience gained by that character. The only thing you lose is the gear on that character and the time spent getting it back up to max level. The attitude from the couple blue posts I have seen is that they know this is the mechanic and it will be working as intended. But, as all things with the expansion and loot/paragon 2.0 go things are subject to change.


    It's pretty logical that you don't lose paragon exp when dieing with a HC char. I mean, what if you died? and your level was "downgraded"? Your paragon 60 dies and the next best you have is 30. Would you lose the last 30 points you spent? I don't see this as a suprise and I'm glad they confirmed it.


    Very true. It would be really strange if you lost a hardcore character, your paragon level went down, thereby making all your other characters weaker...

    they'd have to be program every hardcore character at max level to respec their paragon points anytime another hardcore character died... this won't happen, but just food for thought
  • #47
    Quote from Vulmio

    About the stats, a better alternative would be to remove the "stat" tab and move them in the offensive (for the main stat) and defensive (for vit) tabs. Non class relevant stats can be left out of the equation (if we can already improve armor or all resists, why do we need str or int for example ?).
    The problem (for the devs, not us), is that it would require them to make slightly different tabs for each classes depending on the main stat.


    Agreed. Stats aren't a very interesting choice anyway since you only take vit if you absolutely need it, or your primary stat otherwise, and you never take the other two options. If they really want to, they could just add +% damage to the offense tab to make up for losing the primary stat. They could also add straight health if they felt the need to replace vitality.

    This does take the system down to three tabs though and they probably want an even number of point categories. Personally, I'd like to see every 4th point be discretionary. If they want to limit that, they could say that no single bonus can have more than Paragon / 4 (or 5) points which would force you to level more different kinds of bonuses.
    ...and if you disagree with me, you're probably <insert random ad hominem attack here>.
  • #48
    ^Thats a good idea and perhaps a good compromise. They can apply that to the existing 4 categories by saying every 5th point is a "global point", that is it can be placed in any category. So under the current system at say lv100 having 25 pts in each category, it would be 20 points in each category and 20 global points up to you to spend where ever you want.
  • #49
    Slightly off-topic,but I haven't seen this addressed anywhere I've looked (and I admit I easily could have missed it), but have they stated if MF and GF are going to be stats we have to put points into (in effect, undoing the change introduced w/ Paragon originally)? Or will the MF/GF bonuses gained from Paragon remain on the account up to the cap?

    Given the idea was to remove these things from gear, I imagine that requiring points spent on MF/GF would re-introduce this problem.
  • #50
    Quote from JKCL

    Slightly off-topic,but I haven't seen this addressed anywhere I've looked (and I admit I easily could have missed it), but have they stated if MF and GF are going to be stats we have to put points into (in effect, undoing the change introduced w/ Paragon originally)? Or will the MF/GF bonuses gained from Paragon remain on the account up to the cap?

    Given the idea was to remove these things from gear, I imagine that requiring points spent on MF/GF would re-introduce this problem.


    I've been asking the same question, and we haven't seen a clear answer. There's a discussion in one of the news threads.
    • Blizzard said all stat bonuses are being scrapped (and that would include MF)
    • In the datamined strings there's also paragon MF bonus. It would most likely go under the utility tab (which we haven't seen yet). Strangely, there's no mention of GF though anywhere, and including MF there are 17 paragon treat labels (and not 16 as one might assume)
    Eventually, we'll have to wait until Blizzcon to get a definite answer (and even at Blizzcon everything is just work in progress and subject to change).
  • #51
    With caps on ias, cc, cd etc it may make sense again to have MF be (mostly) gear dependent.

    But it's very tricky to get something like this right through itemization, you'd have to be able to cap out without having it as a max roll on every single slot for one thing.

    But yeah, very early stages still.
  • #52
    Bagstone, thanks for the info.

    I'd be shocked if they put it back on equipment to max it out, especially because that would just push everyone back to gear-switching. There will have to be some bonus system for it that doesn't include "adventure" stats, because the community (I don't think) would accept the rollback to having to choose between MF/GF or any other stat, given that we've been playing without worrying about MF for quite some time now.
  • #53
    Hi!

    im not sure if i missed something or if it has not bin properly announced yet, but i am wondering if we have confirmation on if its worth it to level 10 Plvl 100 characters before the exp?

    are we 100% sure that when the expansion is online those with 10 X 100 Plvl will get a bump -up on all 10 characters to lets say Plvl175?
  • #54
    Quote from Prof_Lypton

    are we 100% sure that when the expansion is online those with 10 X 100 Plvl will get a bump -up on all 10 characters to lets say Plvl175?


    No, we don't know if 1000 paragon level will translate to 175 paragon 2.0 levels. Or 500. Or 80. Or whatever. The exact conversion rate has not been announced, and it will change during beta.

    What we know, though, is that a player with 9 p100 characters will have earned 10% less paragon XP than a player with 10 p100 characters. And since the only official word is that paragon XP and not paragon levels determine your paragon 2.0. level, you should have an advantage if you have 10 p100 characters.

    And paragon 2.0 is account wide, so it will bump all your characters, yes.

    I'm actually surprised by how many people manage to get multiple p100s. I still don't have a single one, and I guess I won't get one before RoS. Just can't stand the grind.
  • #55
    If you enjoy playing, continue to play. You're guaranteed to be gaining something towards expansion paragon, at least from what Blizzard has said till now - and I very much doubt they change this one.

    If you're forcing yourself, consider that at lvl70 the base exp a character gains may (or, hey, may not) be 5-10x the rate now, kind of like how gold translates from one WoW expansion to the next (up to WotLK at least, didn't play after that :P).
  • #56
    Quote from miles_dryden

    Quote from CardinalMDM

    Quote from miles_dryden

    The day Blizzard makes a class that uses Vitality as a damage stat is the day your argument will be valid.


    I've heard this before, as a kind of rhetorically silly suggestion, but honestly, I think they should go for it for the next expansion.

    2 Strength Classes (Barb and Cru)
    2 Dexterity Classes (Monk and DH)
    2 Intelligence Classes (Wiz and WD)
    1 Vitality Class would round things out perfectly.

    People really fear the idea of a Vitality Class, but really, Vitality only boosts Life...without a secondary defensive stat boost attached to Vitality (like Armor for Str classes, Dodge for Dex Classes or All Resist for Int Classes), a Vitality Class would be a clean slate on which to CHOOSE a non-primary in order to make them more viable.

    It'd be far more difficult to build a good one than people think. I'd love to see it, :-)


    Oh no, I wasn't being sarcastic. Well not intentionally. I fully support the idea of a vitality based class. Something like a 1-1-1-3 progression for stats with extra high HP but less overall toughness. Especially if HP were utilized as a resource in some way. Could make for interesting itemization and builds.

    My only point was that until we get something like that, his example from a different game of a different genre with different mechanics with a feature with no real analogue in D3 is kind of irrelevant.

    Personally, I agree with him that the core stat tab is kind of silly since, if given the opportunity, everyone will only put points into their primary stat, and MAYBE vitality if they really need the survivability. It's a similar (though not identical) issue to the whole stat-allocation that people made a big deal of back at release, and I think the current idea of just giving players extra stats in proportion based on their class for each paragon level works much better than giving them a false choice.



    Yes! Yes! This would be amazing and here is how you would do it: Only have the HP globe. You can get a 1-1-1-3 benefit from vit, so secondary stats are still see benefit. However, this hero uses his own life force to deal damage, which is where HP not only becomes important to take hits but also dps.


    Hero: Sanguine Friar
    Hero Weapons: 1 handed = whips, 2 handed = Scythe



    Example DPS Spenders:

    Blood Boil: Cost XX% of HP
    Sacrifice some of your own life force to boil the blood of all enemies around you causing XX% weapon damage within xx yards.

    Soul Bomb: Cost XX% of your HP
    Throw a bomb of spiritual energy that deals XX% of weapon damage over XX yards.

    Death Blow: Cost XX% of your HP
    Channel your life force into your weapon to deal a large amount of damage on it's next swing. Deals XX% additional weapon damage.



    Example Defense Spenders:

    Life Barrier: Cost XX% of your HP while active.
    Focus your energy into creating a shield around yourself or a party member for 2 minutes. You will lose XX% of your total HP while the shield is active.

    Invigorate: Cost XX% of your HP while active.
    Focus your energy into yourself or a party member for 2 minutes to increase their main stat by XX%. You will lose XX% of your total HP while this buff is active.

    Hysteria: Cost XX% of your HP
    Send enemies within XX yards of you into hysterics for XX seconds. Enemies affected by hysteria will have a random chance to be blinded, feared, or stunned.



    Example Resource Generator:

    Life Vortex: XX% life steal
    Create a trap that roots an enemy and does XX% weapon damage over 5 seconds. You recover 5% of the damage done as health.

    Vampiric Touch: XX% life steal
    Your weapons absorb your enemies life force on contact, healing you for XX% of weapon damage dealt.

    Purify: XX% life steal
    Shower your enemy with cleansing fire, healing you for XX% of damage dealt. (Damaged can be increaesd by increasing % fire/elemental damage stats.)



    Example Passives:

    Blood of the Rose: Heal yourself for XX% of Thorns damage.

    Blood Lust: Your life steal abilities effectiveness is increased by XX% when enemies are below XX% life.

    Life Spring: Reduce life regenerating stats by XX%, but increases armor and resistances by XX%.



    For this hero, the resource generating abilities would have something like 75% life steal but would do very low damage. This would deter people from rolling all life regen skills to be invincible because it would take them a very, very, very long time to kill anything without incorporating life spending abilities.
  • #57
    Quote from Bagstone
    I'm really interested in how these edge cases work out. But I'm just worried about the gap. I won't have a single p100 char come the expansion, and that's after more than a year and several hundreds of hours playtime. Some guys have 10 p100 chars after just 6 months of playing. Something doesn't feel right here. All my RoS excitement will be jeopardized if they force us to play "efficient". Efficiency is not necessarily fun for everyone.


    I'm not too worried about it; this next part is all speculation/assumption:

    You/Me = EXP totaling Paragon lvl 40 in RoS (I don't have a P100 either). This allows 10 points in each category, assuming we pick the obvious "choices" 10 in damaging stat, 10 in crit, 10 in movement, and 10 in MF. The values of these tree points is pure guessing but I'll go with the following... 10 strength, 1% crit, 10% movement, 50 MF.

    The elite time sink players = Paragon 200 in RoS (assuming exponential curve of some sort and exp in expansion will be scaled higher). 50 points in each category, 50 str, 5% crit (who knows where this caps), 30% movement and 5 pickup radius (caps unknown and points to spend in what are unknown), 250MF.

    I know this is speculation but really for someone who has dumped 20 to 50 times the time I've spent in the game to have 40 more strength, 4% crit, 20% movement speed, 5 pickup radius and 200% MF seems non-concerning to me (well the MF is big but not sure what this will be like in RoS). These aren't game breaking numbers and I've probably been generous on some of these stat allocations.

    Quote from Indimix
    For example, I play the game Heroes of Newerth quite often, and there is a hero that with a skill does damage based on his max HP. So, he uses his HP to deal damage. And he also can buy DPS items if he wants.

    As you can see, it can be managed in a way that the offensive tab is a no brainer.

    An example more related to D3, let say Thorns became viable, but it would require to get tanky, well, then all of a sudden (if it's worth it) defensive stats it's a must for a Thorn's build.


    I’d love to see this.

    Quote from shaggy
    There's *always* going to be best stats. Nothing you, or I, or Blizzard, or Zombie Jesus do can change that. Blizzard has been fighting this losing battle in WoW for 8 years now, and it's proven to be a majorly impossible charge.


    This

    Quote from Indimix
    The problem lies in the fact that there is an obvious choice, if DPS is more important than anything else, then that is what needs to be addressed.



    Oh the bane of every diablo game. DPS is the best thing to go for when your trying to achieve a goal of killing something. Unless you get one-two shotted then yes defense become a prioirty but if thats happening you didn't pass the gear check, drop an MP level or two :P

    Quote from riptide
    Right now that is how the system works. But I do believe this is a topic they will easily cave on with feedback during the beta. It would be very easy to make paragon points inaccessible until max level. In fact I think this is the best way to handle it because the only people that are constantly rerolling ARE hardcore players.


    Spot on, I was going to suggest this.

    As for the OP, I do think it's silly with the core stats. Unless each point is something significant like 10 points per paragon point the amount of benefit from stacking one stat does shit all in the big picture. I'd prefer the choice to put in any tree as I'd stack MF and movement speed first.
    Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
  • #58
    Quote from Thornagol

    Yes! Yes! This would be amazing and here is how you would do it: Only have the HP globe. You can get a 1-1-1-3 benefit from vit, so secondary stats are still see benefit. However, this hero uses his own life force to deal damage, which is where HP not only becomes important to take hits but also dps.


    Hero: Sanguine Friar
    Hero Weapons: 1 handed = whips, 2 handed = Scythe



    Example DPS Spenders:

    Blood Boil: Cost XX% of HP
    Sacrifice some of your own life force to boil the blood of all enemies around you causing XX% weapon damage within xx yards.

    Soul Bomb: Cost XX% of your HP
    Throw a bomb of spiritual energy that deals XX% of weapon damage over XX yards.

    Death Blow: Cost XX% of your HP
    Channel your life force into your weapon to deal a large amount of damage on it's next swing. Deals XX% additional weapon damage.



    Example Defense Spenders:

    Life Barrier: Cost XX% of your HP while active.
    Focus your energy into creating a shield around yourself or a party member for 2 minutes. You will lose XX% of your total HP while the shield is active.

    Invigorate: Cost XX% of your HP while active.
    Focus your energy into yourself or a party member for 2 minutes to increase their main stat by XX%. You will lose XX% of your total HP while this buff is active.

    Hysteria: Cost XX% of your HP
    Send enemies within XX yards of you into hysterics for XX seconds. Enemies affected by hysteria will have a random chance to be blinded, feared, or stunned.



    Example Resource Generator:

    Life Vortex: XX% life steal
    Create a trap that roots an enemy and does XX% weapon damage over 5 seconds. You recover 5% of the damage done as health.

    Vampiric Touch: XX% life steal
    Your weapons absorb your enemies life force on contact, healing you for XX% of weapon damage dealt.

    Purify: XX% life steal
    Shower your enemy with cleansing fire, healing you for XX% of damage dealt. (Damaged can be increaesd by increasing % fire/elemental damage stats.)



    Example Passives:

    Blood of the Rose: Heal yourself for XX% of Thorns damage.

    Blood Lust: Your life steal abilities effectiveness is increased by XX% when enemies are below XX% life.

    Life Spring: Reduce life regenerating stats by XX%, but increases armor and resistances by XX%.



    For this hero, the resource generating abilities would have something like 75% life steal but would do very low damage. This would deter people from rolling all life regen skills to be invincible because it would take them a very, very, very long time to kill anything without incorporating life spending abilities.


    All good ideas, although I don't think HP should be the only resource. Maybe something like Blood as the primary resource with health costs for certain skills. Basing everything around health could get messy, from a balance standpoint. On the other hand, Blizzard seems to be phasing out lifesteal from skills and passives, so using lifesteal as a resource generator might make the class feel more unique.
  • #59
    Quote from Thornagol

    -snip-
    Hero: Sanguine Friar


    I like this idea, but I think it would be nice if he had two health globes instead of just one, he would obviously have twice the health as an average hero, but he would also have to share this extra health to cast his spells.
    The secondary health globe would help keep track of that, he could still tap into the first one, but at a risk.
    On the other hand, taking damage would also make him lose health from the secondary globe.
    So he would have to be very careful balacing between taking damage and spending health on spells.
  • #60
    Quote from Bagstone



    I'm actually surprised by how many people manage to get multiple p100s. I still don't have a single one, and I guess I won't get one before RoS. Just can't stand the grind.


    If you only leveled for 1 hour a day from now until the expac, you'd be able to have nearly 2 more paragon 100's than you do now. This is assuming 6 months + for the expac and doing 4 man mp 8+ festering -> weeping -> fields-> den/crypts.

    Sure, some people will be slower and some faster. Even if you were super duper slow, you'd have at least 1 level 100 if you started from 0 today. The record is like what? 33 hours? I'm sure you can manage 1/6 of their xp/hr. That's less than 60m xp/hr assuming it took 2 hours to get to 60.

    I think the hardest part of only playing an hour a day is... that it's hard to feel like you're progressing. Since there are times nothing good drops and you don't ding that day.
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