Let's Talk About Paragon 2.0 - Travis Day

  • #21
    Quote from Bagstone

    I have actually just one major concern that I haven't seen being mentioned anywhere: will paragon become mandatory?

    When they introduced paragon they stressed over and over again that they don't want to make paragon farming to become a mandatory chore. Now, seeing that for example the crit chance from the offensive tab might be super important, I'm (as always) worried about the gap between the sub-p100 players (many people don't have more than 1 billion paragon XP yet) and those with multiple p100's (there are quite a few with more than 500 combined paragon levels, which is around 10 billion paragon XP). I wonder if that means that in order to play with someone who is paragon 300, I need much much much higher gear in order to be on the same level (in terms of EHP and DPS). With a free system and no constraints you could at least skip utility and offense and boost your EHP...

    I see the concern, but I doubt there's much the current system can do about that. Let's for instance compare a 1x100 vs a 5x100.
    Scenario a ) The latter has played roughly 5 times as much. He is more likely also investing more time into RoS than the first player. Not only will he have more paragon points, but also better gear. The AH was able to offset that if you invested effort (money?) into it. Witht that gone, naturally the players with more playtime (and the super lucky) will be stronger and pool together in the higher MPs.
    Scenario b ) Each played the same, so the 1x100 invested 5 times as much time as the 5x100 into each individual character. Since this seems to be a rather dedicated player, you can probably assume that he will have better gear on that one character than the 5x100 will have on either of them, at least giving him a head start when RoS starts.
    I know this is very rough and there are quite a few cases where the players with fewer leveled characters might feel left behind. But then again for those who legitimately put a lot of effort into several characters, the reward will most likely feel rather just. And let's not forget that a lot of the players discussing things here are rather dedicated. They might say "I have only 1 or 2 p100 chars, I'm at a big disadvantage", while a big portion of the playerbase is far more casual and is significantly less leveled. And that's fine. Not everyone has to start on mp5+ when RoS starts. I assume that with proper tweaking, the game (Loot 2.0) will give you enough to make your own way through the game on mp0-1; everything above that, you'll have to work for it.
  • #22
    I actually think their decision to give you 1 point to spend on a different tab each level was a very good one. This way you don't have to reset each time you want to lvl up a fresh character because you want more exp or anything else. This way you have a lot more freedom. To be honest, i was actually afraid some tabs would never be used because you'd most likely want to spend most points in the primary attribute, hp and then probably CD and CHC which would *force* us to take a certain route to be more efficient.

    It was a good decision to make all tabs equally interesting. Some people may not agree, but it was for the best. Also... i hope that we'll get a lot of affixes to put points in for each tab.... i mean a lot more than what we already know.
  • #23
    Quote from Bagstone

    I have actually just one major concern that I haven't seen being mentioned anywhere: will paragon become mandatory?

    When they introduced paragon they stressed over and over again that they don't want to make paragon farming to become a mandatory chore. Now, seeing that for example the crit chance from the offensive tab might be super important, I'm (as always) worried about the gap between the sub-p100 players (many people don't have more than 1 billion paragon XP yet) and those with multiple p100's (there are quite a few with more than 500 combined paragon levels, which is around 10 billion paragon XP). I wonder if that means that in order to play with someone who is paragon 300, I need much much much higher gear in order to be on the same level (in terms of EHP and DPS). With a free system and no constraints you could at least skip utility and offense and boost your EHP...


    If Blizzard doesn't want players with many p100 players to have a huge advantage over the average player, there is at least one I can think of. They can just convert say p100 players will be level 4 (or any low level) and people with 10 p100 lvl will be level 20 (or any other number, still quite low) and (most important part) then just increase xp gains by a lot. The characters would suffer a loss in power at the beginning, but it should be ok with the improved gear.
  • #24
    Quote from Bleu42

    Remember, they said core stats don't have a cap.


    Ugh... I definitely don't like that.

    EDIT
    To expand as to why...

    That means that two of the four stats in that category will go completely unused. And, it's likely that vitality will only be partially-used. It's really really counterintuitive to design a system where players will not ever be spending points in one thing because they can put infinite points in something that's much better.
    67.1k elite kills :: 1.98m total kills :: p255
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #25
    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from Bleu42

    Remember, they said core stats don't have a cap.


    Ugh... I definitely don't like that.

    EDIT
    To expand as to why...

    That means that two of the four stats in that category will go completely unused. And, it's likely that vitality will only be partially-used. It's really really counterintuitive to design a system where players will not ever be spending points in one thing because they can put infinite points in something that's much better.


    Maybe you have to max everything first before you can put additional points into your mainstat (once you reach paragon 800).

    I'm really interested in how these edge cases work out. But I'm just worried about the gap. I won't have a single p100 char come the expansion, and that's after more than a year and several hundreds of hours playtime. Some guys have 10 p100 chars after just 6 months of playing. Something doesn't feel right here. All my RoS excitement will be jeopardized if they force us to play "efficient". Efficiency is not necessarily fun for everyone.
  • #26
    Quote from Bagstone

    Efficiency is not necessarily fun for everyone.


    Oh, I hear you man. When I start trying to be "efficient" I generally start having less fun.

    Quote from Bagstone

    Maybe you have to max everything first before you can put additional points into your mainstat (once you reach paragon 800).


    You might be right on that... and that would be ok. Main stats would be capped until you've filled all 800 points out, then you can pick int/dex/str/vit as you see fit (meaning every pLvl 800 character has 50 in each core stat). That would certainly alleviate my concerns with "infinite core stats" so-to-speak.
    67.1k elite kills :: 1.98m total kills :: p255
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #27
    Quote from shaggy

    Quote from Bagstone

    Efficiency is not necessarily fun for everyone.


    Oh, I hear you man. When I start trying to be "efficient" I generally start having less fun.

    Quote from Bagstone

    Maybe you have to max everything first before you can put additional points into your mainstat (once you reach paragon 800).


    You might be right on that... and that would be ok. Main stats would be capped until you've filled all 800 points out, then you can pick int/dex/str/vit as you see fit (meaning every pLvl 800 character has 50 in each core stat). That would certainly alleviate my concerns with "infinite core stats" so-to-speak.


    About the stats, a better alternative would be to remove the "stat" tab and move them in the offensive (for the main stat) and defensive (for vit) tabs. Non class relevant stats can be left out of the equation (if we can already improve armor or all resists, why do we need str or int for example ?).
    The problem (for the devs, not us), is that it would require them to make slightly different tabs for each classes depending on the main stat.
  • #28
    Quote from Bleu42

    Quote from Indimix

    I'm sure I don't like this system.

    Why would you force us to assign points where you want?, fuck off, give us freedom.

    Thanks.



    Hey while they are at it, why are we only allowed 6 skills? GIVE US FREEDOM! LET US USE ALL THE RUNES FOR EVERY SKILL AT ONCE!!

    It's called balance. Settle down.


    Stop acting like a fan and use your brain for a moment, shall we.

    If they force us to put points in predetermined places, it's because if not, we would put all points in DPS.

    The problem lies in the fact that there is an obvious choice, if DPS is more important than anything else, then that is what needs to be addressed.

    Same goes for trifecta items.
  • #29
    Quote from Indimix

    The problem lies in the fact that there is an obvious choice, if DPS is more important than anything else, then that is what needs to be addressed.


    There's *always* going to be best stats. Nothing you, or I, or Blizzard, or Zombie Jesus do can change that. Blizzard has been fighting this losing battle in WoW for 8 years now, and it's proven to be a majorly impossible charge.

    PoE has the same problem (Path of Life Nodes) which they attempted to fix with only small success. Why? Because the game is designed in such a manner that most other forms of EHP were significantly less effective than HPs. Diablo is designed in such a manner that we shoot for a baseline amount of defense and then attempt to kill faster. For instance, I doubt you see many characters with 150 res all running around MP10.

    It's not that defense is an inferior stat, it's that in reality, there's only so much you actually need and then, after that, offense is king because efficiency is king.

    You have to understand that offense is so desired because people want to be efficient. 80 resist all doesn't increase your efficiency nearly as much as 5% crit chance. And there is next to nothing you can do to change that. Furthermore, offense actually provides survivability through life leech and through the fact that fights end sooner which reduces the potential damage you can take. This is also something that can't be changed as it's something we, again, see in WoW. Lots of guilds drop a healer on fights to gain an extra DPS so that they can kill the boss faster because, in killing the boss faster they require less healing.

    You can't just throw a switch and fix these things. Offense is always going to be "better" than defense. But every toon will still need a baseline amount of defense. Like I said, go try MP10 with 150 resist all and let me know how "useless" defense is.
    67.1k elite kills :: 1.98m total kills :: p255
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #30
    It's not true, the fact that several ARPG out there behave like that, doesn't mean there is no other choice.

    For example, I play the game Heroes of Newerth quite often, and there is a hero that with a skill does damage based on his max HP. So, he uses his HP to deal damage. And he also can buy DPS items if he wants.

    As you can see, it can be managed in a way that the offensive tab is a no brainer.

    An example more related to D3, let say Thorns became viable, but it would require to get tanky, well, then all of a sudden (if it's worth it) defensive stats it's a must for a Thorn's build.
  • #31
    Quote from Indimix

    It's not true, the fact that several ARPG out there behave like that, doesn't mean there is no other choice.

    For example, I play the game Heroes of Newerth quite often, and there is a hero that with a skill does damage based on his max HP. So, he uses his HP to deal damage. And he also can buy DPS items if he wants.

    As you can see, it can be managed in a way that the offensive tab is a no brainer.

    An example more related to D3, let say Thorns became viable, but it would require to get tanky, well, then all of a sudden (if it's worth it) defensive stats it's a must for a Thorn's build.


    The day Blizzard makes a class that uses Vitality as a damage stat is the day your argument will be valid.
  • #32
    Quote from miles_dryden



    The day Blizzard makes a class that uses Vitality as a damage stat is the day your argument will be valid.


    I've heard this before, as a kind of rhetorically silly suggestion, but honestly, I think they should go for it for the next expansion.

    2 Strength Classes (Barb and Cru)
    2 Dexterity Classes (Monk and DH)
    2 Intelligence Classes (Wiz and WD)
    1 Vitality Class would round things out perfectly.

    People really fear the idea of a Vitality Class, but really, Vitality only boosts Life...without a secondary defensive stat boost attached to Vitality (like Armor for Str classes, Dodge for Dex Classes or All Resist for Int Classes), a Vitality Class would be a clean slate on which to CHOOSE a non-primary in order to make them more viable.

    It'd be far more difficult to build a good one than people think. I'd love to see it, :-)
    Pre AH-shutdown Transcendence/Spirit (Re)gen build, uses only found and crafted gear and gems, can handle MP7.
  • #33
    Quote from miles_dryden

    Quote from Indimix

    It's not true, the fact that several ARPG out there behave like that, doesn't mean there is no other choice.

    For example, I play the game Heroes of Newerth quite often, and there is a hero that with a skill does damage based on his max HP. So, he uses his HP to deal damage. And he also can buy DPS items if he wants.

    As you can see, it can be managed in a way that the offensive tab is a no brainer.

    An example more related to D3, let say Thorns became viable, but it would require to get tanky, well, then all of a sudden (if it's worth it) defensive stats it's a must for a Thorn's build.


    The day Blizzard makes a class that uses Vitality as a damage stat is the day your argument will be valid.


    If there are hybrid builds, or even pure builds which rely on secondry stats then his argument is perfectly valid. (the second bit)
  • #34
    Quote from Indimix

    It's not true, the fact that several ARPG out there behave like that, doesn't mean there is no other choice.

    For example, I play the game Heroes of Newerth quite often, and there is a hero that with a skill does damage based on his max HP. So, he uses his HP to deal damage. And he also can buy DPS items if he wants.

    As you can see, it can be managed in a way that the offensive tab is a no brainer.

    An example more related to D3, let say Thorns became viable, but it would require to get tanky, well, then all of a sudden (if it's worth it) defensive stats it's a must for a Thorn's build.


    Albeit there is a flaw in your entire argument. It is not about "viable" builds. It's about the "most efficient" build. A majority of players WILL play for effiency - due to this maximizing their gains from effort. I.e it requires a person to find a niche build fun to skip out on efficiency.

    Having different options does not eliminate the fact of that there will ALWAYS be a BEST way/build to go - and you WILL play accordingly to that build/way if you want to maximize.

    Even pulling up a MoBA game in contrast to an ARPG like D3 is COMPLETELY irrelevant. It's not even on the same level. MoBA games have an ENTIRELY different infrastructure of stuff being done then ARPGs. COMPLETELY.

    Instead of everyone playing classes, you have heroes, you specialize in different stuffs - and given that they do this and they are just that, one SEPERATE hero, they can have that system fine. D3 does not have a million different heroes tho. They have a small set amount of classes. Clump 1 huge category of stuff into 1 class = Likelyhood for 1 optimal build is increased and people WILL commit to that build.

    Back to the topic however. I think that the system is good. Sure, people will get pissed because they don't get the "freedom". But most people don't recon what that actual "freedom" does to them.

    Take AH for example. You want to trade. So some want to keep it. But you always HAD the freedom to not use it. Yet you always did? I always had a saying. You want to have your cake and eat it. BUT YOU NEVER DO BOTH.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/CrazyPoochification - Let's Play of Eastern Sun/Other stuff
  • #35
    Quote from CardinalMDM

    Quote from miles_dryden

    The day Blizzard makes a class that uses Vitality as a damage stat is the day your argument will be valid.


    I've heard this before, as a kind of rhetorically silly suggestion, but honestly, I think they should go for it for the next expansion.

    2 Strength Classes (Barb and Cru)
    2 Dexterity Classes (Monk and DH)
    2 Intelligence Classes (Wiz and WD)
    1 Vitality Class would round things out perfectly.

    People really fear the idea of a Vitality Class, but really, Vitality only boosts Life...without a secondary defensive stat boost attached to Vitality (like Armor for Str classes, Dodge for Dex Classes or All Resist for Int Classes), a Vitality Class would be a clean slate on which to CHOOSE a non-primary in order to make them more viable.

    It'd be far more difficult to build a good one than people think. I'd love to see it, :-)


    Oh no, I wasn't being sarcastic. Well not intentionally. I fully support the idea of a vitality based class. Something like a 1-1-1-3 progression for stats with extra high HP but less overall toughness. Especially if HP were utilized as a resource in some way. Could make for interesting itemization and builds.

    My only point was that until we get something like that, his example from a different game of a different genre with different mechanics with a feature with no real analogue in D3 is kind of irrelevant.

    Personally, I agree with him that the core stat tab is kind of silly since, if given the opportunity, everyone will only put points into their primary stat, and MAYBE vitality if they really need the survivability. It's a similar (though not identical) issue to the whole stat-allocation that people made a big deal of back at release, and I think the current idea of just giving players extra stats in proportion based on their class for each paragon level works much better than giving them a false choice.
  • #36
    Quote from Sagathiest

    Quote from miles_dryden

    Quote from Indimix

    It's not true, the fact that several ARPG out there behave like that, doesn't mean there is no other choice.

    For example, I play the game Heroes of Newerth quite often, and there is a hero that with a skill does damage based on his max HP. So, he uses his HP to deal damage. And he also can buy DPS items if he wants.

    As you can see, it can be managed in a way that the offensive tab is a no brainer.

    An example more related to D3, let say Thorns became viable, but it would require to get tanky, well, then all of a sudden (if it's worth it) defensive stats it's a must for a Thorn's build.


    The day Blizzard makes a class that uses Vitality as a damage stat is the day your argument will be valid.


    If there are hybrid builds, or even pure builds which rely on secondry stats then his argument is perfectly valid. (the second bit)


    Thorns in particular is a very problematic stat. As it is, it's almost worthless, but if it were to scale with defense in some way, I can see that becoming very OP unless it were balanced very carefully. It's certainly a possibility, though. Maybe we'll see Thorns get some boosts with the Crusader?
  • #37
    Quote from miles_dryden

    Quote from Indimix

    It's not true, the fact that several ARPG out there behave like that, doesn't mean there is no other choice.

    For example, I play the game Heroes of Newerth quite often, and there is a hero that with a skill does damage based on his max HP. So, he uses his HP to deal damage. And he also can buy DPS items if he wants.

    As you can see, it can be managed in a way that the offensive tab is a no brainer.

    An example more related to D3, let say Thorns became viable, but it would require to get tanky, well, then all of a sudden (if it's worth it) defensive stats it's a must for a Thorn's build.


    The day Blizzard makes a class that uses Vitality as a damage stat is the day your argument will be valid.


    Logical fallacy spotted.

    @Doorsfan viable means, that is a valid option, aka, ~equally efficient.
  • #38
    Quote from Indimix

    Logical fallacy spotted.


    How so? D3 does not have a way to increase both offense and defense with the same stat, except for primary attributes which I thought was your original complaint?

    If you are arguing that we should have systems added to the game that allow you to boost offense and defense at the same time (increasing defensive stats increasing some offensive function) then I agree that approach has possibilities (see my posts above).
  • #39
    As much as it sucks to be "limited" I think this is a good choice by Blizz.

    Most of the community is going to start with several points to spend in the new system. As Indimix and others have said in this thread that the expectation is that most will dump as many points in DPS as they can.

    But I disagree, sorta.

    You are also going to have folks that would dump as many points as they can into run speed, gold find, magic find, etc - to become the most efficient at farming before they are going to visit things like CC/DPS abilities. Regardless of where folks choose to place a lot of points - if you have the option, wouldn't you max something out first as soon as you could?

    To put it simply: the Paragon 2.0 system is meant to give us a reward for long lasting game play - not to be something that you are done with quickly. That means you have to be patient and wait.

    Its what the community wanted, by and large; endgame.
  • #40
    As excited as I am about Paragon 2.0, I really wish the options added more flavor and personality rather than just straight efficiency. I think it would be cool if spending points interacted with skills more, specifically the core stats.

    I posted an idea about that around a year ago on these forums, and with the option of choosing which core stats we want to stack in Paragon 2.0, that idea could be even more interesting. It would also address the issue of only choosing your Primary stat.

    What if each skill gained a utility benefit based on your character's secondary core stats? (ie Demon Hunter - Strength/Intelligence.)

    Examples:

    Cluster Arrow
    -Strength increases the radius of the initial explosion and miniature bombs by X% per X Strength.
    -Intelligence gives Cluster Arrow an X% Chance to Stun per X Intelligence.

    The benefits should be non-dps related, to make sure the Primary Stat still remains supreme. (Chance to "Effect", increased radius, increased effect duration, etc.) It would probably be hell to test and require a lot of time to implement, but it would certainly give the Secondary Core stats some much needed attention, and make Paragon 2.0 (and Items) more interesting.

    As far as having to divide up your points among the four tabs, I don't really mind it. 25 points per tab at Paragon 100 sounds fun to me.
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