CC immunity and unavoidable monster abilites

  • #21
    Quote from Bagstone

    Quote from Audacitus

    Unavoidable death is bad game design.


    Fully agree.

    Quote from Kallizk

    Only you are to blame, cause u choose your mp badly or geared/specced poorly. :P


    A champion pack with frozen/nightmarish/jailer/waller can potentially render you unable to do anything. They can keep you CC'ed infinitely. This is bad game design and has nothing to do with gear, spec, or MP level. Look at it from the other side: they introduced CC diminishing returns for monsters such that they can't be CC'ed 100% (but they somehow forgot to nerf CMWW). Why didn't players get diminishing returns?

    Ever encountered two frozen packs at the same time? GG. One of the reasons my main characters stay softcore. Unless there are diminishing returns or some low-cooldown CC breaking abilities, I'm not gonna switch to HC. And this is where I completely agree with the OP.


    I'm glad there are HC players offering their opinions, as the current state of monster CC is one reason I'm unsure about playing HC characters much at the moment.

    It must be infuriating to watch your character be hit by nightmare, frozen, arcane laser, vortex back into a frozen and arcane to death without you ever being in control of your character. In an instance like that, one damage reducing cooldown probably isn't enough, and why would you use two when you could just play a barb and have WotB up all the time?

    Removing the CC immunity from WotB is one option, as is adding a long cooldown CC immunity skill to all classes. IMO, adding a CC immunity skill would end up turning the skill bar to 5 slots instead of 6 as it would be too useful for all different styles of play to be worth missing out on. Another option could be to have CC immunity added to lots of different skills, eg. CC immune for 3 sec after using leap/iron skin/war cry (replace with other defensive skills for other classes as necessary).

    Other people's suggestions about giving the monster a longer internal cooldown for all abilities, spacing out champ/elite packs better and increasing the cast time between each of their abilities all come back to the same thing. Unavoidable monster abilities are a pain in the ass.
    "It takes a man with real heart...to make beauty out of the stuff that makes us weep." - Clive Barker
  • #22
    I'd expect hc players to take their get-out-of-jail-free cards. I think, every class has an active skill to get out of anything (Serenity, Smoke Screen, Spirit Walk..). Some classes even have passives that grant an extra life.

    So that takes away 1 or 2 deaths, isn't that enough to at least run away from such a dangerous pack and log out?
    I apologize for any formating issues in my posts, I just can't use the new editor.Currently playing Magic 2014, see my thread:http://www.diablofans.com/topic/97565-magic-2014/
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  • #23
    I can only support this and I really only use WotB because of cc. When I read they are going to remove the 100% uptime in the future, the first thing I thought was I will have to deal with those annoying affixes again. And I just don't want to.

    In Diablo 2, CC was a no-go versus players. I can't remember a single situation losing control over your character and this is what it should be like in this genre. Furthermore, the team developing 1.11 seemed to realize skills like Iron Maiden shouldn't be a monsters ability. In the same run, the D3 team adds Reflect Damage, that forces players to use plenty cooldowns just for this one pack, stacking LS (3% for my WD with 800+ resi and 3,5k armor are not enough) or just succumb to them. You can skip or kite some of them, but Phase Beasts with Reflect Damage are just insane and far from being balanced. Their auto-teleport is also something to discuss.

    What I want to say is Reflect Damage belongs into the same category as all the cc affixes, because its also annoying, leaves little space for player skill (very short affix downtimes and instantly up without warning can result in instant death) and should be outgeared.

    The problem with those affixes is not only they are so annoying, but because the packs just spam certain affixes, you can't even trust your oh-shit buttons you reserved for those situations. Rather don't pick them at all if its only useful in 1/5 cases. In all other cases it can happen that you are being hit constantly. And this only leaves one solution, you must be geared to be able to take those hits ALWAYS if you don't want to get frustrated. And being geared like this only makes the defensives abilities more useless.

    So, if the developers want players to have defensive abilities, even if they have very good gear, give them the opportunity to counter all cc affixes.The best would be by removing certain affix combinations and/or reduce their cast-frequency.

    If you ask me, I would remove them entirely, but I know this is not an option. Also the devs seem they are unable to make up their mind. When some guys revealed the hit-mechanics the mobs use when hitting players (only the position when the mob starts attacking matters, so you can get hit 20yd away), some blue poster said (bashiok probably) they felt its no fun if players start running back and forth just to dodge melee attacks, so it must be more fun to eat all attacks. BUT, they added mobs that just rely on dodging their melee abilities (the big guys in the hell rifts a4 or the berserkers in a1/a2). And cc abilities are nothing less than running back and forth to dodge attacks, which in their opinion shouldn't be fun to the player. The worst part is, some combinations even make it impossible to dodge which makes it even worse.

    And tbh I don't have fun dodging 5 arcane sentries in a small and narrow cave. I prefer the D2-style to just run through, slaughter everything and don't care for cc at all.
  • #24
    Quote from Kallizk

    Quote from Audacitus

    Quote from Kallizk

    Quote from Emmo

    Well, considering my last character died to Arcane, Frozen, Vortex, and something else, in that order, I'm all for this.

    They dropped flares down, and then frozen down - easy to deal with, I ran away, waiting for Vortex I went to run round a corner, wasn't quick enough. I get vortexed into frozen, get smacked on the head and flared to death.

    I'd be fine with this if they weren't so stupid quick at unleashing all of their abilities. I mean within 10 seconds there was nothing on the ground, to 3 flares, a set or two of frozen and then vortex. I mean, in that situation it was impossible for me to have escaped - and that is not on.


    Start planning ahead. xD
    While playing HC as soon as i see a pack with those affixes in that order i immediately start looking for a place to fight them BEFORE they start spamming, pre-emptive action goes a long way to saving your ass hehe.


    Yeah, show me how you're supposed to do that when they spawn near the entrance of a cave or something.

    Unavoidable death is bad game design.


    Simple, enter, do a couple spells and exit before they spam abilities, it's not like they have enrage anymore, and even when they had ppl did this... and ofc u can always try to skip them, which will result in higher deaths probably. xD
    But if u want to talk about game design, it was designed so u would tackle mobs u can actually defeat, so if u do have this problem lower your MP, if you still have them in MP0 go hell...

    Quote from Game Over

    if death comes then only I should to blame.


    Only you are to blame, cause u choose your mp badly or geared/specced poorly. :P



    Very funny .... but also just plain wrong. You should not be forced into using a skill if you don't want it otherwise why not give it me perminently and have 5 skills slots instead.

    So am I suposed to play the mp where I can one shot everything? Apart form being boring for many (hc etc) it's not possible.

    And I expect you don't have any difficulty with 2 - 3 plus elites with horde, freeze, fast jail etc or maybe you are just that damn good. I salute you Sir.
  • #25
    They made pre indicators for mortar, frozen and molten explotion, so they should be able to do it for vortex, jailer and waller too.
    Make your peace...Quickly!
  • #26
    Quote from Game Over

    Quote from Kallizk

    Quote from Audacitus

    Quote from Kallizk

    Quote from Emmo

    Well, considering my last character died to Arcane, Frozen, Vortex, and something else, in that order, I'm all for this.

    They dropped flares down, and then frozen down - easy to deal with, I ran away, waiting for Vortex I went to run round a corner, wasn't quick enough. I get vortexed into frozen, get smacked on the head and flared to death.

    I'd be fine with this if they weren't so stupid quick at unleashing all of their abilities. I mean within 10 seconds there was nothing on the ground, to 3 flares, a set or two of frozen and then vortex. I mean, in that situation it was impossible for me to have escaped - and that is not on.


    Start planning ahead. xD
    While playing HC as soon as i see a pack with those affixes in that order i immediately start looking for a place to fight them BEFORE they start spamming, pre-emptive action goes a long way to saving your ass hehe.


    Yeah, show me how you're supposed to do that when they spawn near the entrance of a cave or something.

    Unavoidable death is bad game design.


    Simple, enter, do a couple spells and exit before they spam abilities, it's not like they have enrage anymore, and even when they had ppl did this... and ofc u can always try to skip them, which will result in higher deaths probably. xD
    But if u want to talk about game design, it was designed so u would tackle mobs u can actually defeat, so if u do have this problem lower your MP, if you still have them in MP0 go hell...

    Quote from Game Over

    if death comes then only I should to blame.


    Only you are to blame, cause u choose your mp badly or geared/specced poorly. :P



    Very funny .... but also just plain wrong. You should not be forced into using a skill if you don't want it otherwise why not give it me perminently and have 5 skills slots instead.

    So am I suposed to play the mp where I can one shot everything? Apart form being boring for many (hc etc) it's not possible.

    And I expect you don't have any difficulty with 2 - 3 plus elites with horde, freeze, fast jail etc or maybe you are just that damn good. I salute you Sir.


    You are not forced into using it, but if u want to clear higher mp's with shitty gear u must...
    As i said, i have pretty high end gear, so no i do not have probs with those, but i still use teleport in mp10 even with 1k resists cause i do not want to die, i never used RMAH but i have 1500+ hours played, so ofc i have invested alot in my character, that's why i stand by what i said, if u die you don't belong in that mp, the game as it is right now has no challenge left for players geared like me, so it makes no sense to nerf it cause some ppl can't specc/gear/pay attention to stuff in the floor...
    That's the same as some guy having all defensive abilities and complaining he can't kill shit, instant gratification generation wants stuff delivered on a plate and they bitch when they have it.
    Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
  • #27
    I consider myself reasonably intelligent, and I am also an avid gamer. That being said, running around dodging affixes for 13 minutes isn't fun for me... I pay attention to the floor, hence my statement that stuff is casted retardedly too often... how else would I be able to come up with that? Once again, this issue has nothing to do with gear / spec / personal skill. I can run around all day dodging stuff, but clearly that's counterproductive to actually playing the game and enjoying it.
    WD - mostly other chars are toilet... my pride and joy ;D http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/SirBoneselot-1182/hero/1672627
  • #28
    Quote from Ashy_Larry

    I consider myself reasonably intelligent, and I am also an avid gamer. That being said, running around dodging affixes for 13 minutes isn't fun for me... I pay attention to the floor, hence my statement that stuff is casted retardedly too often... how else would I be able to come up with that? Once again, this issue has nothing to do with gear / spec / personal skill. I can run around all day dodging stuff, but clearly that's counterproductive to actually playing the game and enjoying it.


    For you maybe, not for me, then i guess we just have different opinions on whats fun, for you it's easy stuff, for me it's challenging...
    Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
  • #29
    Quote from Solmyr77

    run away from such a dangerous pack and log out?


    Is that really something we want to encourage?
  • #30
    Quote from maka

    Quote from Solmyr77

    run away from such a dangerous pack and log out?


    Is that really something we want to encourage?


    Absolutely not.

    But, I have to say, I've been a WD from day fuckin 1. I have NO SYMPATHY for people who say they need infinite WotB because CC is too difficult. None. At all.

    The reason that some people are bad at using hard counters properly - you know, evaluating if they should use it on this Jailer or save it for the next Vortex - is because WW Barbs and CMWW wizards have become so popular and they have little practical experience in dealing with it. I know that when I group with a CMWW wizard I can play extremely recklessly.

    I'm not against specs that bring survivability to the table either. But as a player who has been dealing with all these CC mechanics from Day 1 without having total CC immunity (one Spirit Walk every 15 seconds until GI builds truly became possible) I just don't understand how complete CC immunity is mandatory. I don't play my Barb (HotA, not WW) without WotB because the ability to just ignore Frozen/Jailer/Nightmarish/Knockback/Vortex is TOO POWERFUL. The damage bonus is great, but being able to completely ignore the few things in the game that can actually get you killed is far too important.
    67.1k elite kills :: 1.98m total kills :: p255
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #31
    Quote from shaggy

    But, I have to say, I've been a WD from day fuckin 1. I have NO SYMPATHY for people who say they need infinite WotB because CC is too difficult. None. At all.


    Who said cc is too difficult? This is about cc being annoying for different reasons (boredom for example).

    Quote from shaggy

    The reason that some people are bad at using hard counters properly - you know, evaluating if they should use it on this Jailer or save it for the next Vortex ...


    Where is the point in having oh shit buttons if you have to survive 90% of the cc stuff on your own anyway?

    Quote from shaggy

    ... being able to completely ignore the few things in the game that can actually get you killed is far too important.


    The problem on that stuff that can actually get you killed is, you often don't have any influence on this. Nobody is asking for being invincible all the time, just for being able to counter cc using player skill instead of just outgearing stuff. Death because of stupid affix combinations is frustration, death because of failure might not be frustration but could make players try harder next time.
  • #32
    I feel you on that Efrye, it seems people like to boast of their "manliness" on threads where it is of no importance.
    I understand where the OP is coming from as well.

    My problem with the situation is the inconsitancies within the game between Nephalem and demons. If i get hit with a "knockback" not only am i throw backwards(sometimes into danger) i also am slowed terribly(most of the time in danger). I use a Windforce almost exclusively on my Demon Hunter and have never noticed the monsters whom i've knocked back "slow" 60% for 2-3 seconds. So therein lies an inconsistancy there.

    It seems there are those who view themselves as "better" than everyone else which can run parallel to rich people thinking their better than poor people. "Your gear is specced poorly" are cheap shots thrown at a the majority of players by those lucky enough to have found something valuable or those who have been lucky in obtaining "godly" gear. Ive played over 1000 hours as well but have yet to find an item worth over 100 million gold. I bet someone like that would tell me that that is "my fault." lol....

    Someone here has missed the point entirely which is the rate at which CC skills are spammed by monsters.
    "Kallizk"

    Has went ahead and told you that if you die in an MP, you're just not supposed to be there. The joke is on him, however, because even with godly gear you can die in any MP. Even 0. So should someone who got screwed by affixes go back to Hell difficulty? You said you use teleport because you dont want to die? If you dont use teleport, you die? Following your logic, you should just lower the MP because you are clearly not ready for it.

    "You are not forced into using it, but if u want to clear higher mp's with shitty gear u must..."
    --That sentence defeats itself because if you want to clear higher MPS you ARE forced into it, so how can you not be forced into it, but force into it?

    "You are not forced into using it, but if u want to clear higher mp's with shitty gear u must..."
    AND
    "but i still use teleport in mp10 even with 1k resists cause i do not want to die"

    ----Hmm, this person has no problems using his Wizard and using teleport to get out of sticky situations, you told ashy larry you prefer challenges and he likes things to be easy. Funny. Then why are you still using teleport in mp10? Dont you like a challenge or do you use teleport to get out of stick situations and make these things easy?

    "the game as it is right now has no challenge left for players geared like me"

    Damn, so we should go ahead and gear the game for "players like you"? Wow, the 1% of people who were lucky enogh to survive mp10 inferno and look down on everyone else? Lets gear it for the 1%! Screw everyone else!

    "some ppl can't specc/gear/pay attention to stuff in the floor..."
    Can you please explain to me how to spot Knockback, Jailer, Nightmare on the floor?
  • #33
    Quote from Efrye

    Where is the point in having oh shit buttons if you have to survive 90% of the cc stuff on your own anyway?


    Because you're supposed to actually be judging which you need to counter and which you don't. Is this Jailer going to get you killed? No. But the next Vortex probably will. So you choose to counter the Vortex and not the Jailer. Isn't that the kind of active decision making that defines player skill? You did say you want player skill right? Some of that skill involved understanding what things are actually going to kill you and what things are just annoyances based on the strength/weaknesses of your spec and character.

    What meaning would CC have if you could counter it all every single time? That's the whole point. Infinite WotB makes it that WW Barbs completely ignore it. If getting hit by 90% of all CC is bad then isn't ignoring 100% of all CC just as bad?

    Personally, I don't get hit by "90%" of CC on any of my toons. Between Spirit Walk on my WD, Vault on my DH, and Serenity on my Monk I never really feel like I'm powerless against CC. One single ability on each toon gives me the power to deal with the majority of CC effects. If you feel that you're being CCd "90% of the time" then it may very well be an issue with how you're using the skills or how you're playing and not a major issue with the game.

    That being said, some of the CC effects have issues, particularly Frozen on champion packs, since each monster can cast it and it can be staggered. Staggered Frozen effects are, probably, the single worst CC problem the game has, and it does feel unfair. Because of it, getting hit by the first Frozen, without a hard counter, basically resigns you to 6 or 7 seconds of being frozen and that's not cool.

    I would support DR on CC on both players and monsters because I think it's the only, truly, fair solution to move us away from perma-CCd monsters and players.
    67.1k elite kills :: 1.98m total kills :: p255
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #34
    Don't get me wrong, I don't have problems with cc in regards of survivability.I just support the idea that cc is just annoying in the current state and nothing more. I just doesn't add value to the gameplay for me.

    I also don't like your argument regarding player skill in association with using the right skill to the right time. Yes - this is skill, of course. But gameplay like that does not belong into Diablo if you ask me, because certain skills just become so necessary that you might make skills baseline and just make 5 skills selectable. That kind of gameplay belongs into WoW with dozens of skills on your bars.
  • #35
    Shaggy is absolutely right. People who are in CC for "90%" of the time remind me of all these raid members who always stood in the fire until they died although their addons were sending audio and visual signals like hell. Yes, Diablo is mostly a hack'n'slay game but good movement is required aswell. Ergo they should work on their movement instead of complaining about affixes and demanding nerf changes.

    Quote from shaggy

    I have NO SYMPATHY for people who say they need infinite WotB because CC is too difficult. None. At all.


    +1
    Bandyto#2350
    EU
  • #36
    My archon wiz is pretty strong, I can maintain archon in MP7+ with no problems really. [ http://www.diablopro...9/ignus/1170726 ] 400k DPS // 500k EHP unbuffed. But, I can still die in MP3, without any chance of surviving, if the right undodgeable affixes are there. That is definitely annoying and not good game design. Every affix should be avoidable in my opinion.

    I find it funny that people seem to think that every one will just go glass cannon if that is done. As if just because every affix is dodgeable I will dodge them all like a boss all day every day without any hitches. Even the affixes that ARE dodgeable, I still make mistakes, I still find myself having to walk through an archon beam or missing the tiny window of space that frozen offers at times (sometimes it has an archon beam right on it). Get over yourself, nobody is a godly player that can avoid everything all the time, you're still going to have to have some padding on your character.

    I also agree that archon and WOTB should have a max uptime that is lower than the skills cooldown. Why even be a wizard, I might as well just be archon class. I also think CM/WW needs fixing. Nerf those builds and bring everything else up in line. I'm frustrated that if I want to try any other build other than archon or cm/ww I just feel stupid for gimping myself and even bothering.
  • #37
    Quote from shaggy

    But, I have to say, I've been a WD from day fuckin 1. I have NO SYMPATHY for people who say they need infinite WotB because CC is too difficult. None. At all.


    Same here. WD from day one, played him, and only him, for ages. He's still my guy with the most elite kills.

    Times were tough, yo.

    Quote from Efrye

    Nobody is asking for being invincible all the time, just for being able to counter cc using player skill instead of just outgearing stuff. Death because of stupid affix combinations is frustration, death because of failure might not be frustration but could make players try harder next time.


    The man has a point.
    Does anyone really play a Monk without Serenity? Maybe if you're roflstomping the content. But if you're not, I highly doubt you're not using Serenity. And that's saying something.
  • #38
    Quote from Bandyto

    Shaggy is absolutely right.


    I don't think so.

    First, nobody said someone would stand in stuff most of the time. It was all about it being annoying to NOT stand in that stuff because you are just running back and forth all the time then, depending on which affixes are available and how they get spammed. And running around to dodge stuff is something the devs said themselves wouldn't be fun. There is a difference between paying attention for a few situations where you really have to move your ass out of stuff or you die and running away from frozen all the time because the mobs are spamming it like hell.

    Second, and I don't like to repeat myself, nobody here said cc was too difficult.
  • #39
    Quote from Efrye

    First, nobody said someone would stand in stuff most of the time. It was all about it being annoying to NOT stand in that stuff because you are just running back and forth all the time then, depending on which affixes are available and how they get spammed.


    The ONLY affix that comes close to forcing me to "run back and forth all the time" is Frozen, when it gets staggered - something I already stipulated is fucktarded and should be fixed in some form. I have yet to be feared or knockbacked to the point where it bothered my gameplay and Jailer is kinda laughable unless you were being really really really ignorant of the other goings on.

    Staggered Frozen *is* a problem, particularly when you get a 4-pack champion or multiple champion packs with Frozen.

    I play MP6. I don't faceroll it, but the vast majority of elite packs die within 15-20 seconds. There isn't that much that can go wrong in that timeframe. Most manage only one or two knockbacks/fears in that timeframe. Most people on these forums would advise that if it's taking much more than 15-20s to kill an elite pack that you're playing on an MP that's above your gear anyway so I'm not seeing what the MAJOR problem is with anything except how the monsters cast Frozen.

    I've never been "spammed" with fears, or knockbacks, or jails or even walls. Hell, the only real issue I have with Knockback is the slow which I think is fucking stupid and douchey and makes Knockback + Arcane something you really have to be on your toes with since being slowed makes Arcane pretty horrible.

    So I really think the assertion that people are just "running around for 13 minutes" or "running back and forth all the time" is rather overplayed and not exactly an accurate representation of any of the CC affixes (EXCEPT FROZEN).
    67.1k elite kills :: 1.98m total kills :: p255
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
    (V) (°,,°) (V)
  • #40
    Quote from itirnitii

    I find it funny that people seem to think that every one will just go glass cannon if that is done. As if just because every affix is dodgeable I will dodge them all like a boss all day every day without any hitches. Even the affixes that ARE dodgeable, I still make mistakes, I still find myself having to walk through an archon beam or missing the tiny window of space that frozen offers at times (sometimes it has an archon beam right on it). Get over yourself, nobody is a godly player that can avoid everything all the time, you're still going to have to have some padding on your character.


    This is exactly my thinking. It's unlikely many gamers can say they'll be able to dodge every single ability if they had the option to be able to do so. Actually, I've been thinking since reading through this that I would welcome more damage or harsher penalties for any changed abilities that do catch you.

    eg. Leave the cast times and frequency the same, but give jailer a warning graphic, if you get caught then it snares you for twice as long now. You have incentive to avoid it, but can still use a skill to get free if you're unlucky enough to get caught.

    I do agree that by making all abilities potentially avoidable that it might make you feel like you're playing Dance Dance Revolution half the time, and that would be a bad thing for sure. In a game that's supposed to be high energy hack and slash as often as possible, you don't want to feel like you spend half the time dodging coloured lights on the floor. Don't know about anyone else, but I hated having to kite practically everything on the original Inferno as I was struggling to gear up, it was embarrassing for a barbarian for sure!

    Definitely remove the CC immunity from WotB, but I still believe there should be better options for monster abilities.

    I'm aware this sounds like easy mode for some players, it may sound like needless whining from a 'gimme' generation to many more. I see it as further opening the door to more skill builds being viable. I'm not demanding this happen, and I don't think I'll lose sleep if it doesn't. I don't see the need to start a chart with ePeen, but I will point out that I have two accounts, one with self found and one that flips the AH and gears with what I feel like. I enjoy both for different reasons, but I feel the self-found characters are being pushed into certain skills/gear due to these unavoidable abilities rather than giving me the freedom to play how I would like.
    "It takes a man with real heart...to make beauty out of the stuff that makes us weep." - Clive Barker
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