Skill damage?

  • #1
    Is skill damage output determined by the weapons DPS or the weapon's damage?

    I.e. what will do most damage of these two if used by say a wizard:

    Sword 1:
    DPS - 10.5
    Damage - 5-10
    Attacks per second - 1.4

    Sword 2:
    DPS - 18.75
    Damage - 10-15
    Attacks per second - 1.5

    Hope someone can answer this.
  • #2
    i dont know if it's determined by weapon dmg or dps but in your example its easy to conclude that sword 2 is better because its dps, dmg and aps is superior to sword 1 making it the obvious choice.
  • #3
    Skill damage is like rolling a weapon swing.

    So:

    A skill does 150% weapon damage.

    Lets say you are using a weapon that is:

    DPS - 11.5
    Damage - 8-15
    APS - 1.0

    So, that skill that does 150% damage, when its damage hits, it does a roll, some where between 8-15 damage gets rolled, then multiplied by 1.5

    So, the skill damage rolls a 12 lets say, then its 12 * 1.5 = 18 damage.

    And so, that skill could do any where form 12 (8 *1.5) to 22.5 (15*1.5) damage.

    This is how I understand it to work, please some one correct me if I'm wrong.

    Edit: Or to find the skills DPS
    Sword 1:
    Lets say your using a single target 150% damage skill. That skills DPS with this weapon would be computed:

    5*1.5 = 7.5 bottom end damage and 10*1.5 = 15 top end damage.

    So, your skill would be doing 7.5 - 15 damage. Take 7.5 + 15 = 22.5 / 2 = 11.25 * 1.4 (weapon speed) = 15.75

    So, sword 1 with a 150% damage skill would do 15.75 dps
  • #4
    Sorry to plug this, but yesterday I created this thread, about the need for a D2-style exact skill damage output (there's a picture in that thread, if you don't know what I'm talking about). The fact is that DPS doesn't give you all the information you might need, due to the random roll that snowhammer was talking about (and also other things, like passives and gear affixes).
  • #5
    I have to agree with you Maka.

    I have been feeling the need while playing the beta for a "skill detail" screen of some kind.

    Somthing to give you an idea of what your skill is doing, but more importantly I would say, for skills like the WD minions, there is no way to see your minion's health or defense stats. They get upgraded with your gear (so more vitality gives your minions more) but who knows how much exactly? That info isn't shown anywhere.
  • #6
    Also DPS doesnt count movement speed because i dont think you will just stand still and shoot whole game, i dont know why they add stats in to games that doesnt need one, i thought the said there will be no boss runs then why the fuck do i need DPS then ?

    "We added DPS meter for wow freaks just ignore it its doesnt mean shit in Diablo games" oh wait D3 also made skills that depends on weapon DPS, Blizzard sure know how to fuck peoples minds.
    Quote from Burzghash

    Regardless, there's no good reason for forcing permanence on people..
  • #7
    Crysto,

    DPS is a sinlge number. Singles numbes are easy to look at. They didn't add it to cater to wow players or to screw with us, they added it be cause it takes the bottom end = top end and devides it by yout attack speed for you, so you don't have to.
  • #8
    Sure DPS is a nice number to look at, easy to understand = the higher the better. We don't need to sit with a calculator ourselves, but what is puzzling my mind right now is whether a skills damage is based on DPS or weapon damage (two different things), because if it's based on weapon damage, we may need to pick differently than just looking at the DPS and picking the highest DPS.

    But I think there's the cast rate to take into account as well. I mean if you use a skill, say Firebomb for instance, you can cast this so many times per second, but there's no correlation between that and DPS.
  • #9
    Quote from Kildeer888

    Is skill damage output determined by the weapons DPS or the weapon's damage?

    I.e. what will do most damage of these two if used by say a wizard:

    Sword 1:
    DPS - 10.5
    Damage - 5-10
    Attacks per second - 1.4

    Sword 2:
    DPS - 18.75
    Damage - 10-15
    Attacks per second - 1.5

    Hope someone can answer this.

    Its not as simple as that, the damage per cast is based of the damge and not DPS, but the weapon speed effects how fast you can use the skill which results in higher damage per minute/second.

    It really comes down to what kind of build your aiming for and how fast you need your resource generation to be.

    Skills with long cooldown will benefit from higher weapon damage rather then higher DPS, and skills with unstackable bleed/dot.

    No point listing all the benefits of each situation, casual gamers will probably just focus on the DPS when picking a weapon, while more advanced gamers will judge a weapon based on min to max damage and not the attack speed in some situations.
  • #10
    Quote from Nuvian

    Quote from Kildeer888

    Is skill damage output determined by the weapons DPS or the weapon's damage?

    I.e. what will do most damage of these two if used by say a wizard:

    Sword 1:
    DPS - 10.5
    Damage - 5-10
    Attacks per second - 1.4

    Sword 2:
    DPS - 18.75
    Damage - 10-15
    Attacks per second - 1.5

    Hope someone can answer this.

    Its not as simple as that, the damage per cast is based of the damge and not DPS, but the weapon speed effects how fast you can use the skill which results in higher damage per minute/second.

    It really comes down to what kind of build your aiming for and how fast you need your resource generation to be.

    Skills with long cooldown will benefit from higher weapon damage rather then higher DPS, and skills with unstackable bleed/dot.

    No point listing all the benefits of each situation, casual gamers will probably just focus on the DPS when picking a weapon, while more advanced gamers will judge a weapon based on min to max damage and not the attack speed in some situations.

    Exactly the point I asked about, thank you for the answer. So how fast one can cast a given skill is determined by the attacks per second of the weapon equipped I guess? Then DPS have a say in this afterall. Oh well, I'll just test it when the game comes out.
  • #11
    Quote from Kildeer888

    Quote from Nuvian

    Quote from Kildeer888

    Is skill damage output determined by the weapons DPS or the weapon's damage?

    I.e. what will do most damage of these two if used by say a wizard:

    Sword 1:
    DPS - 10.5
    Damage - 5-10
    Attacks per second - 1.4

    Sword 2:
    DPS - 18.75
    Damage - 10-15
    Attacks per second - 1.5

    Hope someone can answer this.

    Its not as simple as that, the damage per cast is based of the damge and not DPS, but the weapon speed effects how fast you can use the skill which results in higher damage per minute/second.

    It really comes down to what kind of build your aiming for and how fast you need your resource generation to be.

    Skills with long cooldown will benefit from higher weapon damage rather then higher DPS, and skills with unstackable bleed/dot.

    No point listing all the benefits of each situation, casual gamers will probably just focus on the DPS when picking a weapon, while more advanced gamers will judge a weapon based on min to max damage and not the attack speed in some situations.

    Exactly the point I asked about, thank you for the answer. So how fast one can cast a given skill is determined by the attacks per second of the weapon equipped I guess? Then DPS have a say in this afterall. Oh well, I'll just test it when the game comes out.

    Yep, take the witch doctor skill poison dart for example, there was quite a change in the cast animation when i switched from a 1.2 attacks per second weapon to a 1.5 attacks per second weapon.

    That skill has a bleed effect when its not runed so a high damage weapon will increase the bleed effect and initial damage but i wont be able to cast it as often, but the bleed doesn't stack so it might be more worth while to use a weapon with slower attack speed and higher damage.

    If i use the "splinters" rune it will not get the bleed effect but will instead shoot 3 darts instead of 1 for a lower damage per dart, so in this scenario i can just go by the DPS and not look at the weapon damage.

    Sometimes a weapon with lower DPS on paper might end up doing more DPS depending on your build, that is whats great with diablo 3 at the moment, there are many choices that effect each other depending on your build and play style.

    Another thing to remember when it comes to classes that use mana for example is that the mana cost is the same for slow and fast weapons, so if a skill cost a lot of mana to cast you will get more damage per mana using a slow high damage weapon.
  • #12
    Well thats interesting, didn't know weapon speed affected skills at all. That means looking at DPS matters more than just looking at a damage range for how well your skills will perform in D3 for spammable ones.
  • #13
    Quote from Kildeer888

    Sure DPS is a nice number to look at, easy to understand = the higher the better. We don't need to sit with a calculator ourselves, but what is puzzling my mind right now is whether a skills damage is based on DPS or weapon damage (two different things), because if it's based on weapon damage, we may need to pick differently than just looking at the DPS and picking the highest DPS.

    But I think there's the cast rate to take into account as well. I mean if you use a skill, say Firebomb for instance, you can cast this so many times per second, but there's no correlation between that and DPS.


    I think you, and possbly also Nuvian below your post, are missing the point of the "DPS" stat.

    I can calculate dps of a given weapon. Its easy, Take the bottom end plus the top end, devide it by 2 and then multiply it by the APS (attacks per second).

    What is not so easy, is computing how the bottom end and the top end change with my other stats.

    So, I have a weapon that does 10 dps on its own. But, add in 120 intelect, which modifies both bottom and the top portion of the damage of the weapon, add in chance to crit, bonus crit damage, +attack speed.. it becomes nearly impossible to calulate it all out quickly. So , the DPS stat does it for me.

    And, to answer your question, skill damage IS based off your DPS stat, but not directly. The higher your DPS gets, the bigger your spell damage will be. But its not "I have 50 DPS, so my arcane missle will hit for 50 damage"

    Its like this:

    I have a 18-24 damage weapon. It has 1.2 Attacks Per Second. Its DPS is 25.2
    I also have 100 intelect. That modifies my low end damage and top end damage. My weapon now deals more like (these numbers are not 100% because I don't off hand know exaclty how much Intelect modifies weapon damage) 28-36 damage.
    I also have 2 rings, each does +2-4 weapon damage. Now I'm up to 32-44 damage.
    I also have a total of plus 10% to weapon speed (they call it Keen affix so far in the beta). My weapon speed is 1.2 so, I take 1.2 * .1 (10%) and I get .12. I add 1.2 + .12 and I get 1.32 APS now.

    So, my brand new DPS is 32 + 44 = 76/2 = 38 * 1.32 = DPS total of 50.16.

    So, lets say you want to know how much damage your Arcane Torrent will do as a Wizard. It does 190% weapon damage.

    So, 32 (bottom end) *1.9 (190%) = 60.8 low end damage and 44 (top end) *1.9 (190%) = 83.6 top end damage. So 144.4 / 2 = 72.2 * 1.32 casting speed = 95.304 average damage per second with Arcane Torrent to a single target.

    Or, if you rather, you can take the DPS stat we found earlier, of 50.16 and just multiply it by 1.9 (the 190% damage of Arcane Torrent) and you get the same thing, 50.16*1.9 = 95.304 DPS with Arcane Torrent
  • #14
    Quote from snowhammer

    Crysto,

    DPS is a sinlge number. Singles numbes are easy to look at. They didn't add it to cater to wow players or to screw with us, they added it be cause it takes the bottom end = top end and devides it by yout attack speed for you, so you don't have to.


    You know damage per swing is far more meaningful because you know what you deliver, DPS is just a mass calculation of attack speed and shit that is not relevant in this type of games because you don`t standing still and shoot.

    DPS is not making my life easier in fact is confusing me because i don`t know what is calculated there and the most important part DPS numbers are bigger just to fuck you up even more its like saying don`t look at weapon attack speed just see this BIG numbers here in DPS.
    Quote from Burzghash

    Regardless, there's no good reason for forcing permanence on people..
  • #15
    I know very well what DPS is and how it is calculated (at least with the two variables weapon damage and attacks per second). I simply asked if a skill's damage was dependant on weapon damage alone or the DPS had a say in it, which apparently it does. That's all.
  • #16
    Quote from Crysto37

    You know damage per swing is far more meaningful because you know what you deliver, DPS is just a mass calculation of attack speed and shit that is not relevant in this type of games because you don`t standing still and shoot.

    DPS is not making my life easier in fact is confusing me because i don`t know what is calculated there and the most important part DPS numbers are bigger just to fuck you up even more its like saying don`t look at weapon attack speed just see this BIG numbers here in DPS.


    DPS is the quick and easy way to see where your at damage wise.

    What your saying is right though, and goes back to the original point I was making and Maka made in his thread linked above.

    Each skill should say what its hitting for per cast some where.
  • #17
    @snowhammer: the problem is that the DPS stat they show you doesn't factor in skill-specific variables, like passives or affixes like '+damage to poison skills'. How are we supposed to keep track of all these things? (Please, nobody tell me "just use DPS; more = better"; that's so simplistic that I don't even want to consider it).


    EDIT: just saw your post. Yeah, you pretty much said it all, well put.
  • #18
    Quote from Kildeer888

    I know very well what DPS is and how it is calculated (at least with the two variables weapon damage and attacks per second). I simply asked if a skill's damage was dependant on weapon damage alone or the DPS had a say in it, which apparently it does. That's all.


    Sigh.. I didnt say you didn't know what DPS is or how its calculated. You asked how it effects your skill damage, what my long winded post was ultimately saying (if you even read it) was that your skills always use your base weapon damage and attack speed.. its just both of those are changed by your stats, int, str, dex, all of them. Best way to see how that effect is happening, since the actual damage on the weapon tooltip doesn't change, is look at the DPS stat.
  • #19
    Quote from maka

    @snowhammer: the problem is that the DPS stat they show you doesn't factor in skill-specific variables, like passives or affixes like '+damage to poison skills'. How are we supposed to keep track of all these things? (Please, nobody tell me "just use DPS; more = better"; that's so simplistic that I don't even want to consider it).


    EDIT: just saw your post. Yeah, you pretty much said it all, well put.


    This gets me wondering. I havent thought about + damage affixes like this before.

    Right now, +damage looks like " + 4-8 Holy damage" In the beta, it appears this just rolls up into your DPS stat, just as though it was 4-8 weapon damage. Does this mean that skills like Arcane Barrage will actually have a portion (4 at the bottom and 8 at the top, or just think of it as a small percentage) of thier damage be done as Holy? I wonder? Otherwise, there doesn't seem to be a point to having anything but +weapon damage since we never use auto attack.
  • #20
    Quote from snowhammer

    Quote from Kildeer888

    Sure DPS is a nice number to look at, easy to understand = the higher the better. We don't need to sit with a calculator ourselves, but what is puzzling my mind right now is whether a skills damage is based on DPS or weapon damage (two different things), because if it's based on weapon damage, we may need to pick differently than just looking at the DPS and picking the highest DPS.

    But I think there's the cast rate to take into account as well. I mean if you use a skill, say Firebomb for instance, you can cast this so many times per second, but there's no correlation between that and DPS.


    I think you, and possbly also Nuvian below your post, are missing the point of the "DPS" stat.

    I can calculate dps of a given weapon. Its easy, Take the bottom end plus the top end, devide it by 2 and then multiply it by the APS (attacks per second).

    What is not so easy, is computing how the bottom end and the top end change with my other stats.

    So, I have a weapon that does 10 dps on its own. But, add in 120 intelect, which modifies both bottom and the top portion of the damage of the weapon, add in chance to crit, bonus crit damage, +attack speed.. it becomes nearly impossible to calulate it all out quickly. So , the DPS stat does it for me.

    And, to answer your question, skill damage IS based off your DPS stat, but not directly. The higher your DPS gets, the bigger your spell damage will be. But its not "I have 50 DPS, so my arcane missle will hit for 50 damage"

    Its like this:

    I have a 18-24 damage weapon. It has 1.2 Attacks Per Second. Its DPS is 25.2
    I also have 100 intelect. That modifies my low end damage and top end damage. My weapon now deals more like (these numbers are not 100% because I don't off hand know exaclty how much Intelect modifies weapon damage) 28-36 damage.
    I also have 2 rings, each does +2-4 weapon damage. Now I'm up to 32-44 damage.
    I also have a total of plus 10% to weapon speed (they call it Keen affix so far in the beta). My weapon speed is 1.2 so, I take 1.2 * .1 (10%) and I get .12. I add 1.2 + .12 and I get 1.32 APS now.

    So, my brand new DPS is 32 + 44 = 76/2 = 38 * 1.32 = DPS total of 50.16.

    So, lets say you want to know how much damage your Arcane Torrent will do as a Wizard. It does 190% weapon damage.

    So, 32 (bottom end) *1.9 (190%) = 60.8 low end damage and 44 (top end) *1.9 (190%) = 83.6 top end damage. So 144.4 / 2 = 72.2 * 1.32 casting speed = 95.304 average damage per second with Arcane Torrent to a single target.

    Or, if you rather, you can take the DPS stat we found earlier, of 50.16 and just multiply it by 1.9 (the 190% damage of Arcane Torrent) and you get the same thing, 50.16*1.9 = 95.304 DPS with Arcane Torrent


    You don't even need to do all that, the game GIVES you the min-max dmg of your weapon on the character tab.... Just multiply the % wpn dmg of the skill with the dmg range...

    Thats it...you can easily do that in your head.
    One is never hurt by being given additional choices, only by taking them away.
    A QUADRILLION MAGIC FIND is worthless if you can't kill shit!
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