[Guide] Comprehensive CMWW Guide [PRE 2.0 PATCH]

  • #201
    Quote from silentpro

    Quote from Loroese

    Recommended Stats

    Crit: 45-50% crit+
    APoC: 18-20
    LoH: 600-900
    APS: 2.73+
    Armor: 3500-4000
    Resists: 500-600
    HP: 30-40k
    DPS: 50-100k
    MP: 5-7


    these are recommended stats from section 4 in this guide.

    what stats are needed for mp10? with 2.73 aps in mind. please dont count prismatic armor.


    It's stated at the end of the guide. 5000 armor, 800 allres, and yes, without Prismatic Armor - completely unbuffed. Works with 2.52 APS as well against multiple enemies, but 2.73 advised for single targets or ubers. My stats are 32k HP, 20 APoC, 52% crit, 2.52/2.73 APS (I have a socketed Chantodo's and an IAS Chantodo's to switch between the break points), 800 LoH, 5000 armor, and 800 allres and it works fine. DPS is quite low though, but I use CMWW almost exclusively in multiplayer with some glass canons taking over the DPS part. (DPS is just a matter of how much patience you have, no one is actually "more efficient" on MP10 than on MP6-MP8).
  • #202
    Quote from Bagstone
    Obviously Loroese himself should give you the elaborate answer and a "clear explanation", but in the meantime... if you're not afraid of maths take a look at this post where he ran some simulations that shed light on the APS/LoH maths and other stuff: http://www.diablofan...n/#entry1055952

    Ah, thanks, I had only read the first post in that thread and stopped there, since I don't have matlab handy. The second post does a wonderful job of answering my question, in particular the graphs showing LoH and FN uptime breakpoints.
  • #203
    Quote from Neziel

    Hi guys,

    First, Loroese, thanks for this guide, I've been playing CMWW for months now after reading this. :-)


    I'm a little bit stuck on what to do next with my wizz.

    d3up.com/b/650863
    eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/gregb-2451/hero/9295948

    I'm actually farming Act 1 to parangon 100.
    MP6 for efficiency but I can handle MP10 without stressing too much.
    I think I have the 2.73 breakpoint with the sorceress buff, and for sure with my mempo (no crit) when farming MP6 where LoH@350 is enough to survive.

    My guess is I lack HP, AR/armor but I don't really what to upgrade for an affordable cost (I'm so poor and so unlucky with loots !!!)

    Any help appreciated. :-)


    (sorry for my frenchglish :x )


    Yes, you're at the 2.73 breakpoint with enchantress, as long as she's alive. That's one reason I don't like hitting breakpoints with her. The other reason is you lose the breakpoint in group play.

    Also, you have EA on, which is really bad IMO, since you lose tons of effective dps compared to SA. What I'd do is work on raising armor and resists so you don't need EA, or just switch to SA if you run lower MP and don't need the extra armor. It will dramatically improve farming efficiency.

    Finally, if you do want to run at 2.73 APS, I'd just swap to a IAS wand. I really hate using Lacuni because of the huge loss of EHP and dps from crafted bracers. Otherwise, if you don't run Ubers, you can just stay at 2.5 APS and swap to scoundrel for higher effective dps.



    Quote from boz0

    Going from 30 to 33 ticks per WW cast is a 33% greater LoH return? I assume there's some arcane reason for this (these are the wizard forums, after all), but I wouldn't mind a slightly clearer explanation :)


    Emmo explained it as well as I could have myself. 10% increase in WW tics and ~10-20% increase in number of twisters out, plus extra EB and DS procs, leads to around 33% increase in LoH returns. From the plot you can see there's a smaller jump at the 2.73 breakpoint. Some people prefer that breakpoint for the increased survivability but it's not quite as drastic a jump as the 2.5 breakpoint, which is why I recommend at least 2.5 APS.
    My EHP and DPS Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    My wizard, mostly useful for killing demons and collecting loot.
    Wizard CM DPS Simulator, written in Matlab, release version 1.01
    Comprehensive CMWW Guide, including gear and build suggestions, plus Uber strats
    Arcane Mines Guide, detailed guide for the highest dps wizard build, including vids
  • #204
    Quote from Loroese
    Emmo explained it as well as I could have myself. 10% increase in WW tics and ~10-20% increase in number of twisters out, plus extra EB and DS procs, leads to around 33% increase in LoH returns. From the plot you can see there's a smaller jump at the 2.73 breakpoint. Some people prefer that breakpoint for the increased survivability but it's not quite as drastic a jump as the 2.5 breakpoint, which is why I recommend at least 2.5 APS.

    Yep, the graph was a pretty clear illustration of the breakpoints. I tried running with 2.507 APS (w/o enchantress), and it feels definitely more comfortable. I had a try at the Vault of the Assassins in MP10, and managed to clear it reasonably easily with my measly 94k dps (despite a couple deaths when I accidentally pulled a champion pack and two elite packs together). The main difficulty is usually not to die at the pull because of my low EHP (217k).

    I've switched around a few pieces, and I can get up to 2.74 APS, but using an Andariel's instead of a Storm Crow, which brings me down to 16 APoC, not sure if it's worth it. I guess I'm just gonna craft some more gloves hoping for a 9% IAS/crit combo and then replace my Lacuni by high EHP bracers.

    http://d3up.com/b/602245
    http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Taliesyn-2517/hero/3808945
  • #205
    Honestly if you don't expect to run Ubers I'd just stay at 2.5 APS, especially if you were somewhat used to running with lower APS. The freeze strength is still pretty good and it's a lot easier to stack DPS and EHP at 2.5 APS as opposed to 2.73 APS. For Ubers you could just use an IAS Chanto to hit 2.73.
    My EHP and DPS Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    My wizard, mostly useful for killing demons and collecting loot.
    Wizard CM DPS Simulator, written in Matlab, release version 1.01
    Comprehensive CMWW Guide, including gear and build suggestions, plus Uber strats
    Arcane Mines Guide, detailed guide for the highest dps wizard build, including vids
  • #206
    Quote from Loroese

    Honestly if you don't expect to run Ubers I'd just stay at 2.5 APS, especially if you were somewhat used to running with lower APS. The freeze strength is still pretty good and it's a lot easier to stack DPS and EHP at 2.5 APS as opposed to 2.73 APS. For Ubers you could just use an IAS Chanto to hit 2.73.

    I was planning on following your guide and getting a 1.78 or 1.79 APS Chanto to switch (as soon as I get the gold, anyway :))
  • #207
    Travis Day was talking about nerfing CM/WW during the anniversary stream, specifically WW's proc co-efficient. Do you guys think Cm/WW will still be viable? Is there perhaps another spell to drive the build if they lower it too much?
  • #208
    It depends what exactly they do to it. If it's just a lower coefficient, it'll probably still be viable, but with more emphasis on higher crit and APS, assuming they don't lower it by like 10x or something crazy.

    Personally I don't think they should do that, I think they should nerf how FN works with CM, since that's really the main thing that makes CMWW stand out compared to other builds. CMWW has high dps and high crowd control, which is why it's so popular. If you remove the high Crowd Control aspect then it's not much different than any other high dps wiz build, and suddenly all the wizard builds are at the same level, or close to.
    My EHP and DPS Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    My wizard, mostly useful for killing demons and collecting loot.
    Wizard CM DPS Simulator, written in Matlab, release version 1.01
    Comprehensive CMWW Guide, including gear and build suggestions, plus Uber strats
    Arcane Mines Guide, detailed guide for the highest dps wizard build, including vids
  • #209
    CM is the only viable mp10 build for most wizards. I want to smash through stuff like the other classes do and there just isn't anything like that where you don't need billions of gold worth of equipment.

    Bliz needs to stop worrying about what we've chosen to play and just focus on making the game better. Freeze proof enemies, freeze resistant enemies, etc.
  • #210
    Quote from JKlimek

    I want to smash through stuff like the other classes do


    Like DHs? Seriously, in terms of gearing up for MP10 CMWW is even cheaper than a barb - though barbs are closely to follow. Then comes nothing. I know some DHs who have characters worth billions and still can't farm MP10. Despite being a CMWW wizard myself, I say CMWW breaks game mechanics. As Loroese said, nerf Frost Nova. It would also bring back some diversity. Right now everyone is switching to wizard and creating a CMWW toon just to see what it's like to roflstomp through MP10.
  • #211
    Quote from Bagstone

    [Right now everyone is switching to wizard and creating a CMWW toon just to see what it's like to roflstomp through MP10.


    I disagree. WW barbs have far better survivability. Not sure about damage, though.
  • #212
    They should leave cmww as it is, if they nerf it, i cant even imagine, what they will have to do to make wizz viable in high mp - like 50% dmg taken reduction ??? without freeze everithing will 2 shot you.
  • #213
    Quote from Lomaxe

    They should leave cmww as it is, if they nerf it, i cant even imagine, what they will have to do to make wizz viable in high mp - like 50% dmg taken reduction ??? without freeze everithing will 2 shot you.


    There's plenty of other builds that are viable in MP10, they're just not as efficient or not as high survivability as CMWW.

    Archon, for example, can run MP10 with high end gear. It even kills trash faster than CMWW at similar gear prices.
    My EHP and DPS Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    My wizard, mostly useful for killing demons and collecting loot.
    Wizard CM DPS Simulator, written in Matlab, release version 1.01
    Comprehensive CMWW Guide, including gear and build suggestions, plus Uber strats
    Arcane Mines Guide, detailed guide for the highest dps wizard build, including vids
  • #214
    well tell me other builds then archon, for me archon is boring as hell, only like 3 skills and the gear cost for mp10 is out of the world... and btw archon is going to be nerfed too so
  • #215
    Just because Archon is likely to be nerfed in the future doesn't mean you can't still use it now, or gear for it. The gear isn't getting nerfed. It'll still be useful for other builds.

    There's disintegrate builds, Arcane Torrent builds, Sleet Storm, meteor builds, etc. All of them are MP10 capable, but I think most are more about high enough survivability, whereas CMWW Is mostly just about high CC+APS with some armor and resist and you are suddently MP10 viable.
    My EHP and DPS Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    My wizard, mostly useful for killing demons and collecting loot.
    Wizard CM DPS Simulator, written in Matlab, release version 1.01
    Comprehensive CMWW Guide, including gear and build suggestions, plus Uber strats
    Arcane Mines Guide, detailed guide for the highest dps wizard build, including vids
  • #216
    Quote from Loroese


    There's disintegrate builds, Arcane Torrent builds, Sleet Storm, meteor builds, etc. All of them are MP10 capable, but I think most are more about high enough survivability, whereas CMWW Is mostly just about high CC+APS with some armor and resist and you are suddently MP10 viable.


    The problem with these builds is you die. A LOT. They quite literally have a fraction of the survivability. Disintegrate and Sleet Storm require you to stand still much of the time. If they nerf CM/WW, I mean, really nerf it, the wizard class will be for the masochists out there.

    Just because Archon is likely to be nerfed in the future doesn't mean you can't still use it now, or gear for it. The gear isn't getting nerfed. It'll still be useful for other builds.


    It'll likely be nerfed in the same patch as Cm/WW, though. The point is very valid that the gear will likely be still usable, because every skill set pretty much wants the same things. damage, intelligence, survivability.

    No word yet on what exactly patch 1.09 will contain. The itemization changes, maybe not, the skill changes, they've hinted this is in.
  • #217
    If you're dying a lot with certain builds, you likely need more survivability. Otherwise most of them aren't that much different from Archon where the goal is to mostly facetank since they don't have chain freezing. Archon and CMWW are the most popular because they require the least amount of survivability to work at high MP. I can farm MP9 pretty easily with my Archon build since I have enough mitigation to gain life against RD and I only have 3700 armor and 790 resists before buffs or GC. If I instead use a Disintegrate build I lose the 40% armor and 40% resist buff from Archon form, which is hard to make up for, but it can be done with higher armor/resists on gear. I can still survive decently with just 1-2 gear swaps and using Prismatic Armor and no Glass Cannon.

    To me the annoying part is the APoC requirement of those builds. I don't like dropping 8-10k dps and 85 vit from my OH to pick up 10 APoC, and/or losing 70 resist, 15% life, and 8-10k dps to pick up 10 APoC on my helm with a SC. I also don't like losing the 15% dps from having to drop GC because of survivability issues. I just stick with Archon for now when soloing because I can get higher char sheet dps and because it's easier to maintain higher EHP. I'll try my disintegrate build again later tonight and see how MP10 goes in terms of deaths. I stopped using it before because I could kill things faster with Archon.

    My point is the other builds work, and people can clear MP10 with them and not die much, if at all. However, they have to gear and build for it more than CMWW and Archon.
    My EHP and DPS Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    My wizard, mostly useful for killing demons and collecting loot.
    Wizard CM DPS Simulator, written in Matlab, release version 1.01
    Comprehensive CMWW Guide, including gear and build suggestions, plus Uber strats
    Arcane Mines Guide, detailed guide for the highest dps wizard build, including vids
  • #218
    Quote from Loroese

    My point is the other builds work, and people can clear MP10 with them and not die much, if at all. However, they have to gear and build for it more than CMWW and Archon.


    I would amend this statement to be "My point is the other builds work, and people can clear MP10 with them and not die much, if at all. However, they have to gear and build for it more than other classes." otherwise I totally agree. There's, in my view, a definite gap between classes like WD/Barb/Monk, and Wiz (outside of CM) who are considerably more fragile.
  • #219
    Once the discussion moves to other classes I'm lost, because I only play wizard. I'm too lazy to level another char just to be able to farm the same things I can farm on my wizard. Well, too lazy and what little spare time I have I rather would use playing my wiz anyway.
    My EHP and DPS Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    My wizard, mostly useful for killing demons and collecting loot.
    Wizard CM DPS Simulator, written in Matlab, release version 1.01
    Comprehensive CMWW Guide, including gear and build suggestions, plus Uber strats
    Arcane Mines Guide, detailed guide for the highest dps wizard build, including vids
  • #220
    I came to this guide hoping to setup an alt to my Demon Hunter for a bit of a change and to get to understand new gear markets. After using this I've made my wiz my main after a minimal investment. I'm mainly doing elites / keywardens solo at the minute and its going well but I do have a few issues with single elites / the act 3 keywarden. I'm not sure if its an APOC issue or a crit one or something wrong with how I'm playing. I can still kill them its just uncomfortable with them moving so much the problem is particularly apparent when trying to kill goblins.

    Here's my character: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Paddywan-2510/hero/1093049. I've gone for the Mempo/socket combo as I plan on upgrading the gear but I'm not necessarily set on it. The other reason I went for it was to get the socket for exp% particularly as getting a hellfire ring that fits the build is bloody dificult. Maybe you think going for a crow with socket is the better option particularly as I don't have crit on my Mempho in the first place?

    Thanks for the guide, was really easy to follow and helped me come in completely cold from another character quite quickly.
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