Exactly why would Blizzard nerf CM in 1.0.9?

  • #1
    Ok moved this over from Jaetch's Archon guide thread. There is one part in the guide ("The Future") in which it is suggested that CM will be nerfed come 1.0.9, in response to which I asked:


    Jaetch, or anyone else, what makes you believe Blizzard will nerf CM? As far as I know the only hint there is is that they don't like the unlimited Archon (or WotB) gameplay. But honestly I don't think Blizzard will be nerfing CM in order to nerf archon. First of all that would make CMWW probably unviable. Over a whole year they made quite a few changes dealing with the CMWW mechanics, and I think the way it is right now is acceptable to them. As far as CMWW goes, it is also not an "MP10 easy mode" as it is often said to be... except for people with really high budgets. Sure you can survive and stunlock on a budget, but surviving + stunlocking + efficiently killing high MP content at the same time is very hard to achieve. Moreover, I even suspect that Blizzard LIKES the CMWW build: It shows that people applied their mind to the game and created a really "cool" build/mechanic out of what they were provided with in terms of skills and passives.

    As to Archon, on the other hand, it is clear Blizzard doesn't really like it that much. However the same is true here: It's not like anybody can crush MP10 content just by going archon. The fact that CM is utilized by archons in higher MPs doesn't make it a broken, cookie cutter build for high MPs... again, except for people with really high budgets, a number of players which I really don't think Blizzard is very concerned about.

    So I would be really surprised if Blizzard was to significantly nerf CM. I really think they will do one or (hopefully) two other things, namely (1) buffing other skills, just like they already tried e.g. with the huge damage buff to Blizzard in 1.0.7 -- which kind of indicates their approach as to the lack of effective build variety for wizards, or (hopefully "and") (2) provide for new, equally or more powerful builds, perhaps in connection with new BOA items which give new abilities like quite some people by now have suggested.

    So in short, I really believe that Blizzard will take neither Archon nor CMWW/SNS away from players.. I think they will try to introduce similarly powerful and attractive alternatives. I for one really hope they succeed, cause right now Diablo 3 is pretty mind-numbing -- and that's basically every build, every class.


    That was followed by replies by Bagstone and me:




    Jaetch, or anyone else, what makes you believe Blizzard will nerf CM?


    1) CM is used by 99% of all wizards. Blizzard doesn't like if a skill/rune/passive becomes a necessity rather than a choice.

    2) CM (in this context) is often used as abbreviation for the CMWW build, and in this particular build there's just a symbiosis of some spells that is completely broken. They don't necessarily need to nerf CM or WW, but put a cap on DS and FN procs. The first makes you invincible, the latter keeps the enemy stunlocked. Thus, the first lets you bypass content by neglecting EHP yourself (see 300k EHP wizards facetanking and surviving MP10), while the latter makes an entire group bypass content by neglecting EHP (Ghom+Rak uber fight on MP10 is one of the most difficult challenges in the game, but with a CMWW wizard all other 3 players can un-equip half their gear and still beat it single-handedly).

    3) Archon and CMWW are the two most popular builds for wizards and both kill the skill diversity. If both were "nerfed" by a bit (or all other builds were made a bit stronger) you wouldn't feel like shooting yourself in the foot while trying out a new, non-standard build.

    Afaik, Blizzard hasn't specifically mentioned that they are looking into CMWW, but I sure as hell hope they do. I am a wizard, carrying my (weak) friends through MP10 uber fights, and I think this is beyond creative use of game mechanics. It's a commonly accepted exploit, in my opinion, and it needs to stop (which might also make some people aware again that there's actually something called "defensive stats" in the game).


    I suspect you haven't read my post past that first line. :)

    Of course I am fully aware of all of what you are saying. Sure, 99% of wizards use CM -- just like 99% of DHs use shadow power or 99% of barbs use WotB. Sure you can stunlock things on MP10 easily, but just like I just said, you can't kill them easily. And utility for group play is not a reason to nerf a whole build, it's rather the opposite if I were blizzard. It would be a problem if people could solo MP10 on a 10m budget, but that is precisely NOT the case with any of these builds.

    There is nothing wrong with having effective builds that have the potential for SUPER geared players to do MP10 with ease... the problem is indeed the lack of build variety. And as to that I argued that it is much more likely for blizzard to provide for new builds that are good enough for people to stop sticking to CMWW or archon than nerfing those, especially since many changes were made to the CMWW spec already and I really think Blizzard is cool with it the way it is right now and any change to CM would have great effects on that.


    Bagstone suggested I create a new topic so here we go. :)

    EDIT: removed double quote ;)
  • #2
    Thanks, great! It's been some time since we had a serious discussion thread about game mechanics in the wizard forum, thanks for initiating this. So, as promised, here's my response:

    I read your post past the first line, but I kind of don't agree with what you're saying that Blizzard "likes" it. MP10 is supposed to be hard and people should gear for it; as it is now, I can carry undergeared people through MP10. And I'm really not on a high budget, probably more like 1% of Jaetch ;-)

    You're right that I can't "farm" MP10, I can barely survive (or survive quite well if I go full defensive for MP10 uber fights). But I can make the life of my friends a lot easier, to a point where they absolutely neglect defensive gear and skills.

    If other, similar builds would facilitate MP10 and/or group play in the same manner, there wouldn't be just one but 3 or 5 MP10-enabling builds. Still, experimenting would be a bad thing as you would have to significantly lower the MP level for any builds outside of these "group-enabling specs". And if many more (or all) skill combinations would be able to survive on MP10... then MP10 is useless.

    This is what I mean by bypassing content: MP10 is supposed to be hard. There should be no way around gearing up in terms of EHP. I like to be a glass canon at times, but in its current state it's just too much. I'd like to see people go back to using shields again, for example.


    So in short, I really believe that Blizzard will take neither Archon nor CMWW/SNS away from players.. I think they will try to introduce similarly powerful and attractive alternatives. I for one really hope they succeed, cause right now Diablo 3 is pretty mind-numbing -- and that's basically every build, every class.


    I agree that they should introduce similarly powerful and attractive alternatives. However, some current builds or skills (namely WotB, Archon, and CMWW) are just so strong that it's almost impossible to create other "similar" builds.
  • #3
    Mechanics like Arcane Power on Crit and Critical Mass remove a big part of the development team's combat and skill design. AP/Crit by providing unlimited resources (like Archon, and making signature skills pretty much useless) and Critical Mass by breaking any "cooldown based" abilities.

    You can tell that Critical Mass was designed to be an accessory passive meant to reduce the cooldown of those defensive abilities (notice I didn't say remove). What it became instead was a skill that allows you to perma-disable enemies (with Frost Nova) and have an endless supply of renewable EHP (Diamond Skin).

    They probably didn't foresee that the combination of Wicked Wind + high attackspeed + Critical Hit Chance would create a situation where Critical Mass would be proccing 8-15 times/second. You simply cannot beat that, period! No amount of "number tweaking" will make Arcane Orb or Magic Missile attractive while that mechanic is in game.

    Explosive Blast is balanced around having a cooldown (look at its dmg numbers and compare to other dmg dealers like Arcane Orb and Disintegrate), but once you remove it, it's a skill that instead of doing ~50% weapon dmg/sec, it can easily deal 300-500% weapon dmg PER second. Again, you just can't beat that.

    I'll post my ideas of how these should be "fixed" later on.
  • #4
    The nerfs are gonna be fun... lots of people spent lots of money on gear to do them.. and when (if) they break them.... haha...
    WD - mostly other chars are toilet... my pride and joy ;D http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/SirBoneselot-1182/hero/1672627
  • #5
    If we are honest...You dont need a cm anymore. Its more like a "nice to have" but other then that i see alot of groups running barb/barb/monk/wd for farming. I doubt blizzard is going to nerf cm further more(they already nerfed the coef back in 1.05?). When it comes to higher MPs most classes offer like 2 or maybe 3 cookiecutter builds. It would be silly to nerf certain builds just to bring more diversity into classbuilds.

    A possible solution could be reworking the dr for cc on elites. So every few seconds there is a timeframe when anykind of cc is impossible. This way you have to take care of your ehp but cm/ww wouldnt be destroyed as a whole.
    Words of wisdom: Don't follow the advice of people who won't have to deal with the consequences.
  • #6

    Thanks, great! It's been some time since we had a serious discussion thread about game mechanics in the wizard forum, thanks for initiating this. So, as promised, here's my response:

    I read your post past the first line, but I kind of don't agree with what you're saying that Blizzard "likes" it. MP10 is supposed to be hard and people should gear for it; as it is now, I can carry undergeared people through MP10. And I'm really not on a high budget, probably more like 1% of Jaetch ;-)

    You're right that I can't "farm" MP10, I can barely survive (or survive quite well if I go full defensive for MP10 uber fights). But I can make the life of my friends a lot easier, to a point where they absolutely neglect defensive gear and skills.

    If other, similar builds would facilitate MP10 and/or group play in the same manner, there wouldn't be just one but 3 or 5 MP10-enabling builds. Still, experimenting would be a bad thing as you would have to significantly lower the MP level for any builds outside of these "group-enabling specs". And if many more (or all) skill combinations would be able to survive on MP10... then MP10 is useless.

    This is what I mean by bypassing content: MP10 is supposed to be hard. There should be no way around gearing up in terms of EHP. I like to be a glass canon at times, but in its current state it's just too much. I'd like to see people go back to using shields again, for example.


    So in short, I really believe that Blizzard will take neither Archon nor CMWW/SNS away from players.. I think they will try to introduce similarly powerful and attractive alternatives. I for one really hope they succeed, cause right now Diablo 3 is pretty mind-numbing -- and that's basically every build, every class.


    I agree that they should introduce similarly powerful and attractive alternatives. However, some current builds or skills (namely WotB, Archon, and CMWW) are just so strong that it's almost impossible to create other "similar" builds.


    I don't see a problem if you enable undergeared players to give MP10 a crack. Killing things will take ages, and nobody can have a 100% freeze lock so you can't completely drop EHP if things will one-hit you otherwise. Being (even very) helpful to groups is not an overpowered thing IMO.

    However I think as regards build diversity, I'm sure there are LOTS of possibilities to improve the game. The Blizzard damage buff was more of a half-hearted attempt. New items with new abilities could come. Other skills can have their damage so significantly buffed that they can compete with Archon or CMWW. I don't see why it's not possible.


    Mechanics like Arcane Power on Crit and Critical Mass remove a big part of the development team's combat and skill design. AP/Crit by providing unlimited resources (like Archon, and making signature skills pretty much useless) and Critical Mass by breaking any "cooldown based" abilities.

    You can tell that Critical Mass was designed to be an accessory passive meant to reduce the cooldown of those defensive abilities (notice I didn't say remove). What it became instead was a skill that allows you to perma-disable enemies (with Frost Nova) and have an endless supply of renewable EHP (Diamond Skin).

    They probably didn't foresee that the combination of Wicked Wind + high attackspeed + Critical Hit Chance would create a situation where Critical Mass would be proccing 8-15 times/second. You simply cannot beat that, period! No amount of "number tweaking" will make Arcane Orb or Magic Missile attractive while that mechanic is in game.

    Explosive Blast is balanced around having a cooldown (look at its dmg numbers and compare to other dmg dealers like Arcane Orb and Disintegrate), but once you remove it, it's a skill that instead of doing ~50% weapon dmg/sec, it can easily deal 300-500% weapon dmg PER second. Again, you just can't beat that.


    Maybe they didn't foresee it, maybe they did. However that may be, the fact remains that CMWW is around for a really long time now and with all the tweaks to its mechanics that Blizzard already did, I think, again: Blizzard is fine with it the way it is now. A barb with 200 million gear can easily outfarm or at least match a > 2 billion CMWW wizard farming MP10. DHs, however inefficient they are on high MPs, can rofl facetank like 5 arcane beams, plagued and electrified at the same time due to shadow power, more than any CMWW wizard. The fact that you can freeze lock things and have a high DPS multiplier all SOUNDS like a big deal, but really when looking at the gameplay and other classes -- it's not like it's totally broken.

    In this regard I totally agree with this:


    If we are honest...You dont need a cm anymore. Its more like a "nice to have" but other then that i see alot of groups running barb/barb/monk/wd for farming. I doubt blizzard is going to nerf cm further more(they already nerfed the coef back in 1.05?). When it comes to higher MPs most classes offer like 2 or maybe 3 cookiecutter builds. It would be silly to nerf certain builds just to bring more diversity into classbuilds.


    My initial question was actually why people get the feeling it will be nerfed at all. If I remember that dev interview correctly, they said they didn't like it that it was so easy to stay in Archon/WotB all the time. And that for WotB, WotB itself is not really the problem but battle rage/into the fray, i.e. "the skill that makes it happen".

    However this doesn't apply to Archon. CM has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that you can permanently stay in Archon. On higher MPs, it comes into the equation as you can reduce the Archon cooldown, but to run Archon on high MPs in the first place it means you have enough DPS/EHP to keep Archon up killing trash, no CM involved there either. This basically leaves CM to be somewhat important for Archons which are: super geared and fighting elites on MP10. Really IMO this doesn't mean Blizzard has to nerf CM. Honestly, I play both CMWW and Archon, and I'm really not afraid of a nerf, would LOVE to see alternatives to these builds, I just don't see why it would happen.
  • #7

    The nerfs are gonna be fun... lots of people spent lots of money on gear to do them.. and when (if) they break them.... haha...


    I doubt blizzard is going to nerf cm further more(they already nerfed the coef back in 1.05?). When it comes to higher MPs most classes offer like 2 or maybe 3 cookiecutter builds. It would be silly to nerf certain builds just to bring more diversity into classbuilds.
    The usage of the word nerf these days, I can't deal with it. It comes with an intrinsical "negative" conotation attached to it, as if it was a bad thing. And the outrage when something is changed is probably the most childish behaviour seen in a game community.

    It's not about making something useless, it's about giving players choices. They can't have choices if one or two elements of the equation are dozens of times more effective than everything else. Nobody wants a game like Divekick as their RPG experience.

    Pretty much every "viable" build out there involves some sort of infinite resource mechanic, usually paired with a high-resource consumption ability (Archon, CMWW, RLtW + Into the Fray, mana regen for WDs).

    That is NOT a part of the original game design. It throws everything that was hand-crafted for each class in D3 in terms of resource management out of the window. There's no "skill juggling" as there was when going through Normal/Nightmare/Hell for the first time. I can't stress how important that is.

    A possible solution could be reworking the dr for cc on elites. So every few seconds there is a timeframe when anykind of cc is impossible. This way you have to take care of your ehp but cm/ww wouldnt be destroyed as a whole.
    The biggest problem with CMWW is the cooldown reduction, allowing skills like Explosive Blast to deal 10 times the original intended damage, and allowing Diamond Skin to be up 99% of the time. It's not just about Frost Nova. It's about the mechanic itself.
  • #8
    Archon changes were mentioned in writing mostly. Changes to proc effects from "skills versus other skills"—in this case Living Lightning/Wicked Wind versus Critical mass—are the root of the problems. Travis Day went as far as calling it a "degenerative" style of gameplay. And I completely agree 100%.

    When I run SNS wizard or CMWW on any difficulty, all I say to myself is, "Well, this is fun" and I look away until I no longer hear anything through my headphones. Same with Archon. Right click until nothing is left. However, for Archon at least you have to overgear the content in order to make it effective. For CMWW you don't have to overgear; you just need the "correct" benchmark stats, such as APS breakpoints and sufficient APoC and CC. Hell, even 10 APoC is enough sometimes.

    As shown at the end of my video, you need ~5 seconds to refresh an Archon from essentially full cooldown back to zero. That's broken. That is what people will call "exploitable" because you can just dump all your faith into CM and LL/WW to solve all your build problems. Ran out of Archon? EHP too low? It's okay, spam LL on 5-10+ mobs and enjoy pseudo perma-freeze (FN) and invulnerability (DS) for a few seconds while you get Archon back up and running. Low MP Archon don't need CM, but they will be far better with it just in case you need to refresh.

    Sleet Storm doesn't need CM. But throw CM in and combine it with EB and DS, now the build is so much better.

    Arcane Mines doesn't need CM. But throw CM in and combine it with FN or DS, now the build is so much better.

    My ninja wizard build doesn't need CM. But throw CM in and replace Mirror Image with DS, now the build is so much better.

    CM doesn't need to get nerfed, per se, but changes are definitely necessary for the longevity of this game. While buffing up all other skills will be awesome, it still doesn't change the fact that if you throw CM into those builds (post-buffs), it'll still make them better than builds without CM.

    Tweaking proc coefficients—as what's been done numerous times since the early days of the game (starting with LL, then WW and ET in general)—can only go so far. Players will just find the next best skill to proc CM. Many relied on Liquefy Meteor or Comet for a while. Some go as far as using Spectral Blades. But the root of the problem will still be there. Critical Mass.

    Out of the top 500 rated wizards in the entire world, 92.4% of them run Critical Mass. For "left-click" abilities, over 94% of players use either Living Lightning, Wicked Wind or Spectral Blades.
    Blizzard Entertainment - Diablo III Community MVP
  • #9
    Tbh i dont have any problem with perma archon. You still need way above avg. gear to farm mp10. I dont mind perma wotb either. The only thing i would like to getting nerfed is cc immunity while in wotb.
    Words of wisdom: Don't follow the advice of people who won't have to deal with the consequences.
  • #10

    Maybe they didn't foresee it, maybe they did. However that may be, the fact remains that CMWW is around for a really long time now and with all the tweaks to its mechanics that Blizzard already did, I think, again: Blizzard is fine with it the way it is now.
    I honestly doubt that.

    If they take their game design even remotely serious, I sincerely doubt they're ok with how the skill/build variety turned out to be in Diablo 3. It is just dumb to be "ok" with 95% of what you designed to be put aside by most of the playerbase because the other 5% turned out to have broken mechanics.

    A barb with 200 million gear can easily outfarm or at least match a > 2 billion CMWW wizard farming MP10. DHs, however inefficient they are on high MPs, can rofl facetank like 5 arcane beams, plagued and electrified at the same time due to shadow power, more than any CMWW wizard.
    Barbarians are the biggest example of how "buffing other skills" won't solve the problem. Rend and HotA were buffed, what did WW Barbs do? They switched out utility skills (Fury Generators, buffs) for those newly "broken" skills. Now you have Barbs with unlimited resources and either a broken sustain ability (Rend with Lifesteal) or a broken single-target damage-dealer (Smash). That's the ONLY choice left.

    The problem remains. You can't make them give up the absurd utility (movespeed, infinite resources, "passive" sustain with tornadoes healing) that RLtW + ItF gives.

    DHs are another prime example of what I'm saying. No infinite Hatred mechanic = no abuse of high-dps skills (Cluster Arrow). No instant cooldown mechanic = no abuse of cooldown based abilities (Fan of Knives, Rain of Vengeance). Infinite Discipline mechanic (Night Stalker) = infinite usage of the strongest discipline-based skill, Gloom => Which by giving an insane boost to EHP and sustain outshadows every other utility/survival skill for DHs.

    Judging from the recent statements (on Archon and WotB) it seems like the devs understand this basic idea. I hope they see that "proc" mechanics (Into the Fray, CM, Nightstalker, AP on Crit) too fit this category of making every other gameplay option trivial.

    I just wish the playerbase would realize this too.
  • #11
    Thanks Jaetch.

    It's good to see some top-notch players can realize what the root of the problem is (unlike some streamers which insist on perpetuating the "blizz nerfs everything, derp" mentality).
  • #12

    The biggest problem with CMWW is the cooldown reduction, allowing skills like Explosive Blast to deal 10 times the original intended damage, and allowing Diamond Skin to be up 99% of the time. It's not just about Frost Nova. It's about the mechanic itself.


    See, why exactly is this a "problem"? Serious question. Because I think it's just "not a problem". My 200m barb farms high MPs better than my wizard with 2-3b CMWW gear, which deals oh so much more dmg than the char sheet dps. My 500m DH can tank more than my CMWW wizard, which is supposed to not take any damage at all, right, because things are frozen all the time.

    So my opinion: Look at gameplay => not a problem.
  • #13
    http://www.diablofan...rview/#comments

    This may answer your question:

    DF: Another thing that fans talk about a lot is changing the mechanics of Wrath of the Berserker and Archon and maybe a bit for Critical Mass and Whirlwind. Originally you wanted to lower their power, but have there been any concrete ideas about those skills? Also, are they going to be part of the Itemization patch for example?

    Wyatt: We didn't want there to be a 100% uptime and that’s still the case. That’s not a small change. That’s a big change that would be impactful if we were to make it in a ‘vacuum’, so we don’t want to do that. We don’t want to flip a switch and all of a sudden Wrath of the Berserker and Archon are not up 100% of the time anymore. Those changes really need to happen at the same time as a number of other changes, because our intention isn't to step in and severely nerf the Wizard and Barbarian classes. Our intention is to make a number of modifications that open up skill diversity, give multiple different skills a different role. So, to give Wrath of the Berserker for example – it could be designed as a skill that’s always up in which case it’s a skill that’s doubling or more than doubling my effectiveness for a single skill slot. So do we then need to design every skill to more than double my effectiveness? That’s not really reasonable. Then it’s like ‘Do we make it less effective? Or does it become a mandatory skill that every Barbarian has to take?’. These are the questions that we ask ourselves. And we've come to the conclusion that Wrath of the Berserker plays well when it is a button that I can push every so often to be awesome for a short period of time. It changes up my tempo; it matches the rhythm of the game when I come across elite packs or whatever. And that allows some Barbarians to say ‘Wrath is an awesome skill for me to take with my build and my items’ and other Barbarians to say 'I’m building mine in a different way, I actually really value Frenzy or Ancient Spear' for example. And that’s where the diversity comes from and this is what we’re trying to build with Wrath and Archon.

    I'll try to go back further and see if I can find blue posts stating specifics about CM. I also agree that CM is a broken mechanic in it's current state.


    See, why exactly is this a "problem"? Serious question. Because I think it's just "not a problem". My 200m barb farms high MPs better than my wizard with 2-3b CMWW gear, which deals oh so much more dmg than the char sheet dps. My 500m DH can tank more than my CMWW wizard, which is supposed to not take any damage at all, right, because things are frozen all the time.

    So my opinion: Look at gameplay => not a problem.


    My opinion: just because you think something is fine doesn't mean it's fine. If that's the case I'm going to take your car because mine broke down and my needs and views are more important to... well MEEEEEEEEEEE.

    Seriously whats the point of playing a game when your invincible?
    Playing Diablo since 97. I know nothing and having nothing good to say, I be a troll.
  • #14
    CM isnt the Problem.
    The missing Build Diversity is.

    And if they change CM at the current state of the Game, they might as well remove the Class.
    Because close to noone gonna play it anymore after the nerf ;)

    I play only archon btw, hate CM myself.
  • #15


    The biggest problem with CMWW is the cooldown reduction, allowing skills like Explosive Blast to deal 10 times the original intended damage, and allowing Diamond Skin to be up 99% of the time. It's not just about Frost Nova. It's about the mechanic itself.


    See, why exactly is this a "problem"? Serious question. Because I think it's just "not a problem". My 200m barb farms high MPs better than my wizard with 2-3b CMWW gear, which deals oh so much more dmg than the char sheet dps. My 500m DH can tank more than my CMWW wizard, which is supposed to not take any damage at all, right, because things are frozen all the time.

    So my opinion: Look at gameplay => not a problem.


    In the official wizard forum, it's been tested that a 10M gold CMWW wizard can run effectively on MP10. Efficiently is a different story, always is. This was only a few months ago. If you want to count inflation, then let's say 50M to be fair. If fair is the right word.

    0-second cooldown to all your skills should not be a fair concept. It isn't right. 0-seconds Zombie Dogs for WDs make much more sense because you have to give up so many item slots to accommodate the build. Even then, it's only one skill, not all of them. And even then, it's not granting permanent crowd control and immunity to damage.
    Blizzard Entertainment - Diablo III Community MVP
  • #16

    Archon changes were mentioned in writing mostly. Changes to proc effects from "skills versus other skills"—in this case Living Lightning/Wicked Wind versus Critical mass—are the root of the problems. Travis Day went as far as calling it a "degenerative" style of gameplay. And I completely agree 100%.

    When I run SNS wizard or CMWW on any difficulty, all I say to myself is, "Well, this is fun" and I look away until I no longer hear anything through my headphones. Same with Archon. Right click until nothing is left. However, for Archon at least you have to overgear the content in order to make it effective. For CMWW you don't have to overgear; you just need the "correct" benchmark stats, such as APS breakpoints and sufficient APoC and CC. Hell, even 10 APoC is enough sometimes.

    As shown at the end of my video, you need ~5 seconds to refresh an Archon from essentially full cooldown back to zero. That's broken. That is what people will call "exploitable" because you can just dump all your faith into CM and LL/WW to solve all your build problems. Ran out of Archon? EHP too low? It's okay, spam LL on 5-10+ mobs and enjoy pseudo perma-freeze (FN) and invulnerability (DS) for a few seconds while you get Archon back up and running. Low MP Archon don't need CM, but they will be far better with it just in case you need to refresh.

    Sleet Storm doesn't need CM. But throw CM in and combine it with EB and DS, now the build is so much better.

    Arcane Mines doesn't need CM. But throw CM in and combine it with FN or DS, now the build is so much better.

    My ninja wizard build doesn't need CM. But throw CM in and replace Mirror Image with DS, now the build is so much better.

    CM doesn't need to get nerfed, per se, but changes are definitely necessary for the longevity of this game. While buffing up all other skills will be awesome, it still doesn't change the fact that if you throw CM into those builds (post-buffs), it'll still make them better than builds without CM.

    Tweaking proc coefficients—as what's been done numerous times since the early days of the game (starting with LL, then WW and ET in general)—can only go so far. Players will just find the next best skill to proc CM. Many relied on Liquefy Meteor or Comet for a while. Some go as far as using Spectral Blades. But the root of the problem will still be there. Critical Mass.

    Out of the top 500 rated wizards in the entire world, 92.4% of them run Critical Mass. For "left-click" abilities, over 94% of players use either Living Lightning, Wicked Wind or Spectral Blades.


    This last point is just not a valid argument as to any imbalance in my opinion, really. Over 90% of all barbs use ruthless, weapons master, battle rage and WotB. Is that bad? Over 90% of DHs use shadow power. Is that bad? In D2 things where the same: Each class had builds that were more effective than others. It was just more than in D3, that's the problem, not specific skills.

    You exactly said what I'm talking about regarding Archon: You need to be very well geared. For CMWW, you don't need to be geared to stunlock, but to deal damage as well as surviving on high MPs also requires very good gear.

    This "degenerate" experience is the fact that you can permanently stay in Archon, and that's due to the Archon skill, not due to CM. Hence my initial question to you in your guide thread :) -- I don't see why you infer from this Travis Day interview that CM, as opposed to Archon, should be changed.
  • #17

    http://www.diablofan...rview/#comments

    This may answer your question:

    DF: Another thing that fans talk about a lot is changing the mechanics of Wrath of the Berserker and Archon and maybe a bit for Critical Mass and Whirlwind. Originally you wanted to lower their power, but have there been any concrete ideas about those skills? Also, are they going to be part of the Itemization patch for example?



    Thanks, that sort of did answer my original question. And the fact that the dev only talked about Archon/WotB uptime. :)
  • #18

    0-second cooldown to all your skills should not be a fair concept. It isn't right. 0-seconds Zombie Dogs for WDs make much more sense because you have to give up so many item slots to accommodate the build. Even then, it's only one skill, not all of them. And even then, it's not granting permanent crowd control and immunity to damage.


    The WD zero dog build is an excellent comparison, this actually makes me think about another thing. Archon (as in the streamer "Archon the Wizard") has suggested i.a. that if you take a build like CMWW (or any other cookie cutter build, archon, wotb/rltw etc) but make it dependent on BOA items one has to work for. That would be really cool, if you couldn't buy all the necessary stuff on the AH that easily but rather have something to work for obtaining the gear. But still such a statement also means that CM doesn't break the game in his opinion either, it's just that a freeze lock is a little too easy to obtain.

    Also contrary to popular belief, CMWW wizards are NOT immune to damage. ;) Sure stuff is frozen most of the time, but again, it's VERY HARD to gear enough DPS and survivability for the high MPs -- which is precisely where you want to play with CMWW.
  • #19
    Alot of people just dont realize that D3 is about FARMING. MP10 should be some kind of endgame BUT not that hard to achieve. If you nerf certains builds/skills alot of people couldnt even handle mp7 or 8. As long as you cant get a character selffound/crafted into at least mp5 then there is no point in nerfing stuff other then cc immunity while in wotb.

    D3 suffers in some points and op skills/builds are just one aspect. ;)
    Words of wisdom: Don't follow the advice of people who won't have to deal with the consequences.
  • #20
    Good discussion. I dont think they should eliminate the cmww build but it does need a reduction in freeze lock ability. Perhaps lower the proc coefficients so a 3.0 aps freeze feels like a 2.5 freeze now and so on.

    I do agree that gear has become so good that we dont really even need a cmww wiz any more. Most of the time I group play some combination of wd +monk is the ideal. They still are great for ubers though.

    I really think Wrath is more broken than anything else in the game. The bonuses are abusrd to be permanent. Without wrath, I really dont think barbs are over powered at all.
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