No love for the Wizard

  • #1
    Hi!

    I've spent some time testing some various Wizard builds on the PTR and I come to the conclusion that buffing various skills is simply not enough to make playing with the Wizard fun again.

    Don't misunderstand me - the Wizard was great for a time, I've spent 3x more time on my Wizard than on my Barbarian, check my profile yourself
    • Kiting is the most boring thing you could ever do - I gladly left kiting behind when Inferno was nerfed in 1.0.4 (I think).
    • Critical Mass builds don't have any appeal for me - I always hated the Energy Twister spell with a passion, the Wicked Wind rune most of all. Although I did use the Storm Chaser variant for some time before the proc coefficients got nerfed in 1.0.5. After that I decided that I don't want any more button masher specs at all.
    • I did toy around with Sleet Storm and Meteor variants of CM builds, they are simply less effective than the horrible Wicked Wind.
    • Archon. A very efficient way of farming low MP. But how long can you perform the totally brain-dead activity of holding down the right mouse button? I gave up at Paragon 35.
    • For me Archon is totally useless in group play, as you can't maintain the Archon buff as a Barbarian maintains his WotB.
    • Hybrid builds are also quite... meh. I don't even know where to start.
    • The PTR changes to Fire Bolts, Arcane Orb and Blizzard are nice, some people will start using those skills again, but I didn't find any fun way to play with them
    The more I think of it, the more I become totally butt-hurt by the current Wizard design.
    http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/class/wizard/
    Look at KEY FEATURES:

    ELEMENTAL MASTERY
    Wizards claim dominion over the natural elements of Sanctuary. Crackling flames, bolts of lightning, blasts of ice and whirlwinds are at their command, and this versatility enables them to target foes’ weaknesses and bypass their defenses.

    It looks that the website describes a totally different Wizard than is in game.
    Just count by yourself, how many spells are Elemental, and how many are Arcane and Physical?
    I'll count by the runes:
    • Primary (signature): 5 Arcane, 5 Physical, 1 Fire, 9 Lightning
    • Secondary: 5 Cold, 15 Arcane (!!)
    • Force: 5 Physical, 5 Arcane, 5 Cold (not counting Hydra and Meteor)
    • Hydra and Meteor are the only spells that shine when it comes down to the variation of damage source. All the skills should have similar variation.
    • Mastery: 5 Physical, 5 Arcane

    Oh boy, how I miss the Sorceress...
  • #2
    I agree. When I first got the game, I really wanted to play the Wizard, but the skillset didn't appeal to me at all.....so I didn't.

    It really needs a big overhaul.
  • #3
    So let me ask you, what was your playstyle as sorceress?

    Btw, regarding your list at the end, arcane IS an element, just like fire, lightning, and ice.

    You say you don't like kiting. You say you don't like CM. You say you don't like one button smashing, Archon, Energy Twister, Sleet Storm, Meteor, hybrid builds, Fire Bolts, Arcane Orb, Blizzard, ...

    I'm sorry, but I feel like this post lacks any *constructive* criticism, you just dislike everything. My personal view:

    There are two dominating builds, namely Archon and CM-based builds (mainly CMWW). I don't think Archon is a problem, it just needs a fix to be viable in group play. CM, in my opinion, needs to be nerfed, like a cap on how often it can proc or a cap on CC/IAS to make it more difficult to become "indestructible" by using CM+DS. But if we look beyond these two skills, there is a lot of variety and no "fixed choices" that you have to take. In fact, I feel like once CM would be nerfed the D3 wizard offers more variety for endgame than the D2 sorceress ever had, simply because you can potentially build a spec around almost every spell.

    I've seen so many people posting here with what we call "unusual" specs, but they enjoy the game and it works for them. It's just once you board the efficiency train that you feel Archon/CMWW is a must. I haven't been on the PTR but even before 1.07 I felt that Blizzard can be a good alternative, in particular if you acquire the suitable gear for this spec; with the huge buff in damage I'll definitely try it. One of my favorite spells, just based on its mechanics, is Arcane Orb and I'm more than happy that they buffed it. Keep in mind that for all these spells there are specific items you can get to increase damage, crit chance, duration etc - obviously these specs don't work if you try them out with gear that was build around a CMWW or Archon spec.

    Edit: Try Disintegrate, Electrocute, Arcane Missile builds. I use them from time to time, it's a lot of fun.

    TL;DR: Completely disagree to your analysis, I think Blizzard is giving the wizard *some* love, although the main problems (Archon group issue and CM being OP) haven't been fixed yet.
  • #4

    So let me ask you, what was your playstyle as sorceress?

    Btw, regarding your list at the end, arcane IS an element, just like fire, lightning, and ice.

    You say you don't like kiting. You say you don't like CM. You say you don't like one button smashing, Archon, Energy Twister, Sleet Storm, Meteor, hybrid builds, Fire Bolts, Arcane Orb, Blizzard, ...

    I'm sorry, but I feel like this post lacks any *constructive* criticism, you just dislike everything. My personal view:

    There are two dominating builds, namely Archon and CM-based builds (mainly CMWW). I don't think Archon is a problem, it just needs a fix to be viable in group play. CM, in my opinion, needs to be nerfed, like a cap on how often it can proc or a cap on CC/IAS to make it more difficult to become "indestructible" by using CM+DS. But if we look beyond these two skills, there is a lot of variety and no "fixed choices" that you have to take. In fact, I feel like once CM would be nerfed the D3 wizard offers more variety for endgame than the D2 sorceress ever had, simply because you can potentially build a spec around almost every spell.

    I've seen so many people posting here with what we call "unusual" specs, but they enjoy the game and it works for them. It's just once you board the efficiency train that you feel Archon/CMWW is a must. I haven't been on the PTR but even before 1.07 I felt that Blizzard can be a good alternative, in particular if you acquire the suitable gear for this spec; with the huge buff in damage I'll definitely try it. One of my favorite spells, just based on its mechanics, is Arcane Orb and I'm more than happy that they buffed it. Keep in mind that for all these spells there are specific items you can get to increase damage, crit chance, duration etc - obviously these specs don't work if you try them out with gear that was build around a CMWW or Archon spec.

    TL;DR: Completely disagree to your analysis, I think Blizzard is giving the wizard *some* love, although the main problems (Archon group issue and CM being OP) haven't been fixed yet.



    Before they can nerf CM wizards WW barbs and WOTB must be nerft 1s. CM wizards have a poor lvl of damage output and you need insane gear to pull it of 2.7 APS anyone? hig crit ? also as a CM wizard surival stats really matter like all ressi and vitt, Sorry as strong as a well geared CM wizard is when it comes to barbs gear is barely a issue for a WW barb hence why everyone plays one. Also before you think the majority of ppl play a CM wizard unless you can actually perma stun something you are not a real CM wizard end of story.
  • #5
    Wiz is simply least damaging class now , most slow, have too many arcane skills, worst set armor, too many active passive skills. Witch doctor have more DPS, more AoE, more speed , more survivability and super effective nuke skills, more builds that work and there are plenty room to adjust build for different tastes and needs.
    It feels like skills must be buffed hard, and that acrane missile must have rune, that can turn it into an iceball and fireball, remove familiar and replace with targetable pet, remove force weapon (most blunt active passive skill). Slow time needs to trap enemies in that buble - that would justify large cooldown.
  • #6

    Wiz is simply least damaging class now


    http://www.diablopro...at_dps_unbuffed

    8 out of the top 10 unbuffed DPS is wizard, and wtf is an active passive skill?
  • #7
    While I agree that there are many, many, many skills that can use some serious overhauls, eventually there will be builds that clearly dominate the rest in terms of efficiency and effectiveness. That's just how the way games in general go. In FPS games, some weapons and playstyles will outperform others when you exclude skill from the equation. In standard solo RPGs, some party formations and classes will outshine other combinations. Same thing with builds in D3, not just with wizards. You can be as equally butt-hurt about WW barbs, cookie cutter Cyclone Overawe monks, perma-Vault legacy Nat's DHs, Bear WDs, etc.

    If you revamp skills, for example, nerf Archon and CM/WW, something else will come along (mass Blizzard, 0-AP Disintegrate, etc.) and become the "best" build. What I do agree with is that the "less-often" used skills can be changed up a little bit to offer more aesthetically pleasing effects (instead of 2 lightning-based signature spells, they could take one out and make it cold-based instead, or instead of Arcane Orb, it could be Elemental Orb).

    You might want to take a step back and roll other characters and just let your wizard take a vacation. One reason you're getting all worked up about wizard skills may be because you're spending the majority of your time playing a wizard. Did you know that out of my 900 hours logged into D3, about 800 of it is on my wizard? Did you know I also quit the game for a good couple of weeks and even sold all of my gear (I do somewhat regret doing that)? The break was good. And even before then, I geared up a monk, a legacy DH as well as a barb to throw some paragon levels onto them. Take a break.

    Or go play the AH, that's what I do when I don't feel like right-clicking for instant win.

    Edit: Oy, man, you have 240K lifetime kills under your belt... you could use a little more serious farming. And also, your hate for WW is really screwing your own gear-setup. 20 APoC but you use Living Lightning? What's the point of the APoC then?
    Blizzard Entertainment - Diablo III Community MVP
  • #8

    So let me ask you, what was your playstyle as sorceress?

    Btw, regarding your list at the end, arcane IS an element, just like fire, lightning, and ice.

    You say you don't like kiting. You say you don't like CM. You say you don't like one button smashing, Archon, Energy Twister, Sleet Storm, Meteor, hybrid builds, Fire Bolts, Arcane Orb, Blizzard, ...

    I'm sorry, but I feel like this post lacks any *constructive* criticism, you just dislike everything. My personal view:

    There are two dominating builds, namely Archon and CM-based builds (mainly CMWW). I don't think Archon is a problem, it just needs a fix to be viable in group play. CM, in my opinion, needs to be nerfed, like a cap on how often it can proc or a cap on CC/IAS to make it more difficult to become "indestructible" by using CM+DS. But if we look beyond these two skills, there is a lot of variety and no "fixed choices" that you have to take. In fact, I feel like once CM would be nerfed the D3 wizard offers more variety for endgame than the D2 sorceress ever had, simply because you can potentially build a spec around almost every spell.

    I've seen so many people posting here with what we call "unusual" specs, but they enjoy the game and it works for them. It's just once you board the efficiency train that you feel Archon/CMWW is a must. I haven't been on the PTR but even before 1.07 I felt that Blizzard can be a good alternative, in particular if you acquire the suitable gear for this spec; with the huge buff in damage I'll definitely try it. One of my favorite spells, just based on its mechanics, is Arcane Orb and I'm more than happy that they buffed it. Keep in mind that for all these spells there are specific items you can get to increase damage, crit chance, duration etc - obviously these specs don't work if you try them out with gear that was build around a CMWW or Archon spec.

    Edit: Try Disintegrate, Electrocute, Arcane Missile builds. I use them from time to time, it's a lot of fun.

    TL;DR: Completely disagree to your analysis, I think Blizzard is giving the wizard *some* love, although the main problems (Archon group issue and CM being OP) haven't been fixed yet.



    My play with the Sorceress?
    I had multiple Sorc's over the years with Diablo 2.
    The first was a Blizzard/Frozen Orb one.
    The second was a Tempest/Chain Lightning one.
    The third was a Meteor/Fireball one.
    The fourth was a Meteor/Frozen Orb hybrid.

    I just had a blast playing a hero that focuses on one damage type. And I did return to them after a while, just to find out that their style i just as pleasing as when I have left them.

    I of course agree that my post lacks constructive criticism, but that was not the point of the post. The point of the post was to clear my inner butt-hurt about the fact that the Wizard failed to be the Sorceress spiritual heir.

    About the other skills you mentioned: I did try them all. All are fun for a few runs, but they are nothing that I would come back to.

    Last thing: Arcane is not an element.

    EDIT: If I ever decide to gear up my Wizard, I will certainly use your guide, as it is a superb piece of work :)


    If you revamp skills, for example, nerf Archon and CM/WW, something else will come along (mass Blizzard, 0-AP Disintegrate, etc.) and become the "best" build. What I do agree with is that the "less-often" used skills can be changed up a little bit to offer more aesthetically pleasing effects (instead of 2 lightning-based signature spells, they could take one out and make it cold-based instead, or instead of Arcane Orb, it could be Elemental Orb).

    You might want to take a step back and roll other characters and just let your wizard take a vacation. One reason you're getting all worked up about wizard skills may be because you're spending the majority of your time playing a wizard. Did you know that out of my 900 hours logged into D3, about 800 of it is on my wizard? Did you know I also quit the game for a good couple of weeks and even sold all of my gear (I do somewhat regret doing that)? The break was good. And even before then, I geared up a monk, a legacy DH as well as a barb to throw some paragon levels onto them. Take a break.

    Or go play the AH, that's what I do when I don't feel like right-clicking for instant win.

    Edit: Oy, man, you have 240K lifetime kills under your belt... you could use a little more serious farming. And also, your hate for WW is really screwing your own gear-setup. 20 APoC but you use Living Lightning? What's the point of the APoC then?


    I do not want CMWW or Archon to be nerfed in any way. I just want a pure elemental build to be completely viable and possible.
    I don't quite play my Wizard now. I did quit Diablo a month after 1.0.5 came.
    I just recently started to play again due to upcoming PvP. I did a few runs with my Wizard but got bored as hell, so I poured my whole money into my Barbarian, and now I can solo mp6-7 in HotA build. I can play higher MP with my Barbarian than with my Wizard, who has 3 time more time invested in it.

    About the build you can see in my profile currently - Living Lightning is to reduce CD on Archon if I happen to lose it when farming low MP's.

    The 20 APoC is a result of gearing for a build that will allow me to face-tank mobs with using Meteor in place of Energy Twister. It was a certain measure of success, but the fatality rate was much higher than in a CMWW build due to the attack delay that Meteor has.

    EDIT: http://eu.battle.net...YXOS!ZgW!baccZc
    The build that I used for the majority of my time as a Wizard. A CM/Kite hybrid, the sole one that provided me with fun for more than a few runs. I actually still use something similar if I'm doing ubers with my friends.
  • #9

    http://www.diablopro...at_dps_unbuffed

    8 out of the top 10 unbuffed DPS is wizard, and wtf is an active passive skill?


    Every class can kill stuff with lower DPS a lot faster.
    Active passive - i mean active abilities like force weapon, that does passive effect
  • #10


    http://www.diablopro...at_dps_unbuffed

    8 out of the top 10 unbuffed DPS is wizard, and wtf is an active passive skill?


    Every class can kill stuff with lower DPS a lot faster.
    Active passive - i mean active abilities like force weapon, that does passive effect


    Its CMWW that has the horrible damage output the other specs arent to bad and honestly dont think classes like WDs or DHs are doing better than wizards on single target unless you run a CMWW spec, also most other clases have similar damage buffs like barb battle rage WD Soul Harvest monk bearth of heaven etc.


    The main gripe I have is with glass cannon that apart from combination strike it has to be the worset damage passive in the game hell if you think about that you are actually flat out trading survial for flat + % damage its the worset passive in the game I dont see barbs losing armor and all ressi on ruthless even though the icon even depics a broken bone lol. Hell all the wep passives that DH and barbs have dont even have a trade off or requirement like glasscannon/pierce the veild or steady aim wich has enemy at range requirement to be active.


    I think the point that blizzard is failing the most with atm in D3 is the fact everything is nerft or buffed with + or - % damage all the time apart from energy twister and barb WW wich had coefficient tweaks to them. Some abilitys need rework either in what the ability dose or the cost/range/CD of the ability rather than band aid type fixes. The best example is the multiple times monk abilitys have received damage buffs the issue is not that abilites deal to little damage they are not getting used for monks its that spirit generation sucks major donkeyballs and apart from hig MP farmming (where new exploding palm is gone be very nifty and wave of light "maybe" in duels) what they are doing to monks will not change the current build the majorty of all monks are running.
  • #11
    Well first thing I was surprised comming from barb to wizard was horrible passives. 10% dmg from conflagration for 3 sec after dealing fire damage, 20% from cold blooded to chilled and frozen targets, 15% for -10% armor and resists from glass cannon.
    For comparison you have on barbarian +25% damage on max fury from berserker rage, +30% from brawler when there are 3 enemies in melee range, not to mention 2 passives that give either +10% crit or 5% crit and 50% crit damage.

    Then you look at active skills and you have tons of skills that have randomized effect, which simply means they are not really reliable for damage dealing, or you have delayed skills like meteor, that you can easily miss and loose 50 arcane power for no effect (which without bonuses is 50% of what you have). And why, oh why there is not a single hard cc that have high range on a ranged class, too many skills are close or even melee range, so you need to take it in your face to deal damage from skills like meteor, or explosive blast, and your most reliable cc, which is frost nova, is again, very small range.

    No wonder there are 2 main builds (archon and cmww) that just sit in place and tank everything to deal damage. In my opinion, design of Wizards is just really bad as a ranged class.

    At least for lower MP, Blizzard + infinite Meteor Shower is very fun to play.
  • #12
    Tbh i don't think that CMWW dmg is horrible, in fact the more mobs are around the higher dmg comes from shocking aspect rune. Also pick a wormhole teleport and mobility is there too. Only mobs that piss me off are random ranged champion who didn't get blown away with the rest (and A3 keywarden - aka teleporting bitch). With ~450K EHP, 2.75 APS, 140K dps i can take on everything and reliably doing stonefort->tower 1->crater 2->rackis->bridge->depth 1,2 in 30-40 min on mp 8 (mp 9,10 are too much of a bother for 50 mf bonus). Also i like how complex CM builds are with all crosscalculations between CC/Apoc/APM.

    OT: i agree that some builds will be dominating, but having more alternative options for a different gear ceilings/playstyles would be great too. Many won't mind loosing some lvling speed to try something new, but atm if you're not Archon or CMWW you're shooting yourself in the leg. Worth mentioning that we're still better off then monks who almost all go FoT/MoC/SW for mp 6+. Having two viable builds is better then 1.

    That being said IMO 30% dmg reduction for melee is outdated mechanics becouse as a monk (rerolled to wiz from monk not far ago) with double LS weapon, 100K dps, ~700 resists, 36K hp i could cruise though MP 8 with holding FoT mouse button and ocasionally poping Serenity/FoL/SSS. With CD reduction passive between blind and double immunity (serenity and SSS animation) mobs had couple sec to harm me before new chain started. Well at least i had to time my immunities against harder affixes (easier once were leftclicked to death) on monk, my barb friend is runing 6% LS (including passive), less defensive stats and roll over MP 8 with dmg and cc immunity alone.
    That being said melee classes have easier access to LS (especially barbs with passive, mighty belts, weapons), they've immunities, no-cd mobility moves and meanwhille they still have 30% dmg reduction.That 30% difference is what denies wizards possibility of playing real deal melee spectral blades/arcane dynamo build (although melee options would require way more attention to make them at least semi-viable compared to archon and cm builds).

    P.S. The most positive change for me is better EXP scaling with MP, getting 3 times less exp on MP8 then on MP8 didn't feel right.
  • #13
    It really needs a big overhaul.

    And they promised that in 1.04 (for 1.05).

    Now we getting close to 1.07... rofl
  • #14
    But atm if you're not Archon or CMWW you're shooting yourself in the leg.


    That is exactly the reason why currently I am playing my Barbarian.
  • #15

    But atm if you're not Archon or CMWW you're shooting yourself in the leg.


    That is exactly the reason why currently I am playing my Barbarian.



    Oh lol the moment you realise that the OP is a troll you play a barb because they don´t have builds that dominate or something lol ? for barbs untill you have insane gear WW is the ONLY way to go then you got hota builds and ranged barb to pick from.
  • #16
    i lol irl to these statments that "Wiz must be CM or archon, barb must be hota or WW"
    i have both a barb and a wizard, actually two wizards, one of them HC, and i do not play those builds, i can still clear mp10 np on both softcores, and i still manage a clean 60m xp/hour on my wiz SF, granted that there are ppl that make more xp, but are they playing with the build they like? there are alot of cool working builds out there.
    With that said i think what the wizard misses most atm is more school damage changing runes, a fire magic missile (fireball anyone?) or a lighting ap spender, or a signature cold spell, we got nothing of the sort, it's useless to choose conflagration for example unless you use fire bolts which are not even fire looking and suck lol, sure we have meteor and fire hydra, but only 1 sig fire spell and it's not really fire. that's the kind of stuff wizard needs imo.
    Those Who Do Not Know True Pain Cannot Possibly Understand True Peace...
  • #17

    Oh lol the moment you realise that the OP is a troll you play a barb because they don´t have builds that dominate or something lol ? for barbs untill you have insane gear WW is the ONLY way to go then you got hota builds and ranged barb to pick from.


    I don't exactly get what is your problem.

    And I strongly disagree that until a barb gets insane gear only WW is an option.
    Just check my barb's gear. Is it insane? No, not by any margin. It's mediocre at best.

    Barb has the advantage that the only thing required for an effective barb build is Sprint (any rune) + Battle Rage (Into the Fray) + some critical chance. No matter the rest of the skills, these two give the barb an option to speed farm. The rest can improve it even further.

    I can do anything I want, I can modify the rest of the skills totally freely.
    I can run Ranged. I can run Double Tornado. I can run HotA. I can run an immortal Revenge+Rend build tank build. I can run a no-fury-spender build with Berserker's Rage always on.

    No such diveristy with the Wizard, I'm afraid. Only way to do things fast is by Archon.
  • #18
    When I read the only problem with a class is the color or the name of their spells, I guess the class is fine :)
  • #19

    i lol irl to these statments that "Wiz must be CM or archon, barb must be hota or WW"
    i have both a barb and a wizard, actually two wizards, one of them HC, and i do not play those builds, i can still clear mp10 np on both softcores, and i still manage a clean 60m xp/hour on my wiz SF, granted that there are ppl that make more xp, but are they playing with the build they like? there are alot of cool working builds out there.


    And who said you can't run other builds? Past some gear lvls you can run almost everything granted you didn't draft skillset with closed eyes. Thing is that this builds don't dish remotely close dmg to imp archon (with added survivability) or provide utility of CMWW. Actually rest classes are in a similar situation with couple builds way ahead of the rest, but since we're talking about Wiz it's worth mentioning that long awaited patch brings almost no changes promoting new builds. Imo we'll have to wait for expansion for proper skill system rebalance.
  • #20


    Oh lol the moment you realise that the OP is a troll you play a barb because they don´t have builds that dominate or something lol ? for barbs untill you have insane gear WW is the ONLY way to go then you got hota builds and ranged barb to pick from.


    I don't exactly get what is your problem.

    And I strongly disagree that until a barb gets insane gear only WW is an option.
    Just check my barb's gear. Is it insane? No, not by any margin. It's mediocre at best.

    Barb has the advantage that the only thing required for an effective barb build is Sprint (any rune) + Battle Rage (Into the Fray) + some critical chance. No matter the rest of the skills, these two give the barb an option to speed farm. The rest can improve it even further.

    I can do anything I want, I can modify the rest of the skills totally freely.
    I can run Ranged. I can run Double Tornado. I can run HotA. I can run an immortal Revenge+Rend build tank build. I can run a no-fury-spender build with Berserker's Rage always on.

    No such diveristy with the Wizard, I'm afraid. Only way to do things fast is by Archon.



    You can do the exact samething on a wizard as you are doing on a barb still dose not matter as you still are "shooting yourself in the leg" not going for the optimal builds i lvled from 60 para to 62 with a hydra build out of boredom worked just fine not the fastest or the "best" but worked just fine for me.

    And with the gear on your barb witch is a lot of worse than my barbs(you use a skorn as well my barb is DW also really no max MS ?) http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Zeel-2708/hero/10522863 I would never run anything but WW barb with your lvl of gear if you think the builds you are running at your gear lvl are optimal or even decent you are sadly misstaken.

    To me as someone who cleared inferno pre damage nerfs with a wizard I think its more the lack of "skill" and I use the word "skill" losely in a game that is 99% gear based 0.5% luck and 0.5% skill based to execute alternative sub par builds. Seeing as on a wizard they need to stay at "range" is needed in most other builds not with CM in them I think its more of a you issue than a game issue, even though I will not argue with on that point that wizard could use some changes besides + % damage buffs wich I think is a poor way to fix anything with any class 90% of the time.
  • To post a comment, please or register a new account.
Posts Quoted:
Reply
Clear All Quotes