reflect damage + health link

  • #1
    So i dunno if it is a bug or something but assuming i dodge everything else that the mobs put out atm my health stays in 1 place due to lifesteal ect. so reflect damage is not much trouble until the mobs get health link is it just me or do you all se major health drops when going against those combos?
  • #2
    I've heard a few people mention that combo, and I've noticed it too. I don't know if it's a bug of just how the health link works, like you do x damage to one, but it only actually does x/3 damage and the other 2x/3 damage is just moved to the other mobs, or something. Then the damage reflect is still based on the X damage. At least, that's my guess.

    Also, is it just me or does damage reflect seem to act a little different on groups than individual mobs? I swear that against 1-2 mobs, my health stays even or even goes up a little, but when there's a whole group, like 5 minions+rare elite, my health goes down pretty fast. It seems to me that if I break even against 1 I should break even against any number. Has anyone else seen that or is it just me?
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  • #3
    If you are using
    Quote from Loroese

    I've heard a few people mention that combo, and I've noticed it too. I don't know if it's a bug of just how the health link works, like you do x damage to one, but it only actually does x/3 damage and the other 2x/3 damage is just moved to the other mobs, or something. Then the damage reflect is still based on the X damage. At least, that's my guess.

    Also, is it just me or does damage reflect seem to act a little different on groups than individual mobs? I swear that against 1-2 mobs, my health stays even or even goes up a little, but when there's a whole group, like 5 minions+rare elite, my health goes down pretty fast. It seems to me that if I break even against 1 I should break even against any number. Has anyone else seen that or is it just me?

    Without understanding the full context, my guess is that you are probably using AOE skills that hit multiple mobs. For example, if you are using explosive blast and hit 5 monsters (vs. 2), you will be dealing more damage and thus have more damage reflected back.

    Would require further exploring if you are using single-target skills though.
    OFFENSIVE STATS: 126K Unbuffed DPS • 183K Buffed DPS • 2.25 APS • +24% Movement Speed
    DEFENSIVE STATS: 1.07M Unbuffed EHP • 102K Life • 2,269 Life on Hit • 674 Life per Sec • 23.5% Dodge
  • #4
    could be the same reason that health link+ reflect seem to rape me :( havent noticed too much on groups but dear god some times just feel like skipping an entire zone just to skip a pack

    as for aoe spells.... archon beam is my spell of choice..........
  • #5
    It seems when you hit one elite with Health Link, you're essentially hitting all of them simultaneously. And if you hit them all at one, you're destroying your own HP at a ridiculously high rate.

    RD+Health Link. Bad.

    RD+Extra Health. Really bad.

    RD+Horde. Stupid bad.

    RD+Vampiric. Coma-inducing bad.

    Any combinations of RD-Extra Health-Horde-Vampiric will make me curse the RNG gods.
    Blizzard Entertainment - Diablo III Community MVP
  • #6
    I believe the issue is that if you hit 1, your damage gets split to all of them, and they all trigger the reflect.

    However, the game calculates Life Steal as if you are just hitting the first one, which means you are getting the full reflect amount but only 1/4 of the life steal. For those people that are basically "break even" on life steal vs reflect mobs, that can be really bad.
  • #7
    Quote from Jaetch

    It seems when you hit one elite with Health Link, you're essentially hitting all of them simultaneously. And if you hit them all at one, you're destroying your own HP at a ridiculously high rate.

    RD+Health Link. Bad.

    RD+Extra Health. Really bad.

    RD+Horde. Stupid bad.

    RD+Vampiric. Coma-inducing bad.

    Any combinations of RD-Extra Health-Horde-Vampiric will make me curse the RNG gods.
    3%ll from onehander is not enough, after switching to skorn no other combination than rd+hl is a problem.

    Quote from Zeyn

    I believe the issue is that if you hit 1, your damage gets split to all of them, and they all trigger the reflect.

    However, the game calculates Life Steal as if you are just hitting the first one, which means you are getting the full reflect amount but only 1/4 of the life steal. For those people that are basically "break even" on life steal vs reflect mobs, that can be really bad.

    I think this is the case. There's no other explanation how i get one shotted by rd+hl as soon as my archon beam hit all of them. Even hitting only one of them is a pain in the ass.
  • #8
    so its not the reflect damage that would be the problem it would be blizzard and lifesteal not working as well on i guess groups and health link? also lol jaetch ^.^

    side note horde, mortar, reflect, fast demonic tremors CAN GO TO FREAKING HELL SKREW YOU BLIZZARD AND THAT COMBO!
  • #9
    with 3% lifesteal, 8k armor, 700 res all, rend+bloodlust (9% lifesteal) i was actually loosing life vs reflect+link. was quite.... retarded. like... how am i actually supposed to kill that if i LOOSE hp at a rate greater than 12% lifesteal?

    yay loh again......
  • #10
    Strange. I am experiencing the exact opposite. I usually run around with 2.5% ls and switch my main hand for reflect packs, but if they are health link as well, my hitpoints are drained way slower, so I don't even need to switch weapons for these.

    This is on a monk btw, not sure if it makes a difference.
  • #11
    I have a 1000 dps warmonger with 6% ls and 900 loh with a 300 loh gem, I switch it in for any RD packs. (archon wiz).
  • #12
    Quote from unReality

    If you are using
    Quote from Loroese

    I've heard a few people mention that combo, and I've noticed it too. I don't know if it's a bug of just how the health link works, like you do x damage to one, but it only actually does x/3 damage and the other 2x/3 damage is just moved to the other mobs, or something. Then the damage reflect is still based on the X damage. At least, that's my guess.

    Also, is it just me or does damage reflect seem to act a little different on groups than individual mobs? I swear that against 1-2 mobs, my health stays even or even goes up a little, but when there's a whole group, like 5 minions+rare elite, my health goes down pretty fast. It seems to me that if I break even against 1 I should break even against any number. Has anyone else seen that or is it just me?

    Without understanding the full context, my guess is that you are probably using AOE skills that hit multiple mobs. For example, if you are using explosive blast and hit 5 monsters (vs. 2), you will be dealing more damage and thus have more damage reflected back.

    Would require further exploring if you are using single-target skills though.

    I mean for Archon beam. I guess I'm the only one seeing that happen. The only thing that I can think of to explain it is the 600 life per sec regen I have on my gear is putting me over the break even point single target, but when I hit multiple mobs that life regen stays the same, but the damage taken increases becaose of more mobs.
    My EHP and DPS Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    My wizard, mostly useful for killing demons and collecting loot.
    Wizard CM DPS Simulator, written in Matlab, release version 1.01
    Comprehensive CMWW Guide, including gear and build suggestions, plus Uber strats
    Arcane Mines Guide, detailed guide for the highest dps wizard build, including vids
  • #13
    Quote from Loroese

    I mean for Archon beam. I guess I'm the only one seeing that happen. The only thing that I can think of to explain it is the 600 life per sec regen I have on my gear is putting me over the break even point single target, but when I hit multiple mobs that life regen stays the same, but the damage taken increases becaose of more mobs.

    Since archon beam is AOE, I'm guessing what's happening is because you are doing more damage per second (i.e. from hitting 4-5 minions), more damage is reflected back to you than what your life regen covers. Against smaller mobs (1-2 minions), you're doing less overall damage per second and thus less damage is reflected back.
    OFFENSIVE STATS: 126K Unbuffed DPS • 183K Buffed DPS • 2.25 APS • +24% Movement Speed
    DEFENSIVE STATS: 1.07M Unbuffed EHP • 102K Life • 2,269 Life on Hit • 674 Life per Sec • 23.5% Dodge
  • #14
    but still ife you are not losing health or even gaining health when hitting 1 mob with reflect why should it be any different when htiting more than one? something just doesnt add up
  • #15
    Quote from dabishi


    side note horde, mortar, reflect, fast demonic tremors CAN GO TO FREAKING HELL SKREW YOU BLIZZARD AND THAT COMBO!

    Fast is a little redundant, I think, since they're sped up as rares anyway, but I'm 100% with you on that. Damage Reflect Tremors are just horrible for Archon, same with Phasebeasts. With teleport and illiusionist, I can do decent against them though. I just teleport as soon as I get hit once and blast away, though with damage reflect it requires a lot of creative teleporting around health globes or I'll kill myself.
    My EHP and DPS Spreadsheet, mostly useful for wizards.
    My wizard, mostly useful for killing demons and collecting loot.
    Wizard CM DPS Simulator, written in Matlab, release version 1.01
    Comprehensive CMWW Guide, including gear and build suggestions, plus Uber strats
    Arcane Mines Guide, detailed guide for the highest dps wizard build, including vids
  • #16
    Quote from dabishi

    but still ife you are not losing health or even gaining health when hitting 1 mob with reflect why should it be any different when htiting more than one? something just doesnt add up

    Uhm.....because you're doing more damage. I thought this was pretty clear.

    If you do 100 damage to 1 mob, you get 100 damage back;
    If you do 100 damage to 3 mobs at the same time, you get 100+100+100=300 damage back
    (numbers are fictitious)

    How is this not clear?

    Health link only 'transfers' damage from one mob to the other ones; if you're hitting many or all, you're gonna trigger RD multiple times, health link or not.
  • #17
    Quote from maka

    Quote from dabishi

    but still ife you are not losing health or even gaining health when hitting 1 mob with reflect why should it be any different when htiting more than one? something just doesnt add up

    Uhm.....because you're doing more damage. I thought this was pretty clear.

    If you do 100 damage to 1 mob, you get 100 damage back;
    If you do 100 damage to 3 mobs at the same time, you get 100+100+100=300 damage back
    (numbers are fictitious)

    How is this not clear?

    Does RD really reflect 100%? I somehow doubt that, because than it's almost impossible to compensate RD with lifesteal. Usually wizards have around 3% lifesteal, which translates to 0.6% on Inferno. My mitigation is definitely not 99.4%, I have no LoH/lifereg, but I can still dps some RD packs without losing life.

    Anyways, his point is valid: if you don't lose life when you hit one mob, it means that your lifesteal/LoH is higher than the incoming reflected damage (after mitigation). And this scales, it doesn't matter if it's one or ten mobs, because lifesteal/LoH scales as well. What changes the equasion though is the amount of damage per hit; smaller hits can be mitigated easier, but big hits will just instagib you when reflected (try Arcane Destruction on RD packs).
  • #18
    Quote from Bagstone

    Quote from maka

    Quote from dabishi

    but still ife you are not losing health or even gaining health when hitting 1 mob with reflect why should it be any different when htiting more than one? something just doesnt add up

    Uhm.....because you're doing more damage. I thought this was pretty clear.

    If you do 100 damage to 1 mob, you get 100 damage back;
    If you do 100 damage to 3 mobs at the same time, you get 100+100+100=300 damage back
    (numbers are fictitious)

    How is this not clear?

    Does RD really reflect 100%? I somehow doubt that, because than it's almost impossible to compensate RD with lifesteal. Usually wizards have around 3% lifesteal, which translates to 0.6% on Inferno. My mitigation is definitely not 99.4%, I have no LoH/lifereg, but I can still dps some RD packs without losing life.

    Anyways, his point is valid: if you don't lose life when you hit one mob, it means that your lifesteal/LoH is higher than the incoming reflected damage (after mitigation). And this scales, it doesn't matter if it's one or ten mobs, because lifesteal/LoH scales as well. What changes the equasion though is the amount of damage per hit; smaller hits can be mitigated easier, but big hits will just instagib you when reflected (try Arcane Destruction on RD packs).

    Reflect damage is only a portion of the damage inflicted but Maka's point stands.

    Also remember that each spell has different coefficients of return for life steal or life on hit. some get horrible returns (cough blizzard) and some get great returns (DH traps) and most fall in between. This is especially true for AoE spells since they are designed to hit multiple mobs and I still haven't read anywhere what the "ideal" number is for everything to line up.
  • #19
    how is it not clear? would going with your same 100 damage set up wouldn't and you had lifesteal say you gained 101 damage from lifesteal and took 100 damage from reflect wouldnt it be -100 +101 -100 +101 -100 +101 -100 +101 for each mob? instead of it changing to something like -100x4 +101? like for instance without reflect but standing in plague or getting hit by spears or what not and your are attacking many mobs at once your lifesteal ticks can go much much higher than if you hit just 1 mob so why wouldnt it be the same?
  • #20
    Quote from Küken

    Strange. I am experiencing the exact opposite. I usually run around with 2.5% ls and switch my main hand for reflect packs, but if they are health link as well, my hitpoints are drained way slower, so I don't even need to switch weapons for these.

    This is on a monk btw, not sure if it makes a difference.

    Like you, reflect damage seems less poweful against me when they have health link. And I play a monk too.


    I also noticed that reflect damage on minions deals way more damage (per hit) than it does on their boss. Maybe because they have less armor/resist, but the difference is huge for me.
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