[complete guide] by Projax 1.0.5 WD

  • #41
    I am not sure how the game computes dps during the game. If it were me doing the programming, I would not want to calculate every item on your body each time you click a spell and multiply it the percentage of damage the spell is suppose to do. I would rather use the statsheet dps as a base number and multiply it with the skill damage. It would be less computer intensive. So when people say IAS is only good for paper damage and not true damage, I think it might be a mistake. I thought the same thing until witching hour dropped for me. It was the only IAS item I had, but it increased my dps by 8k on the screen. The difference between belts was about 100 less intelligence but had IAS and a small amount of Crit damage under 50%. After using it, things died so much quicker. Using it with bears obliterated packs while giving me plenty of mana left over for the next pack. If IAS didn't matter for dps, the small increase in crit damage and drop in intelligence should not allow me to steamroll over packs, but it did. If you think that IAS should not be giving you that much damage boost since technically it shouldn't improve your damage just remember that programmers can be lazy/efficient and create a simplified dps calculation not based on your normal thinking process. If you play a monk, there was a dps boost that you can do where you place a two handed big dps weapon and start sweeping wind and then switch to two weapons for the life on hit and faster attack speeds. The cyclones will be based on the higher dps two handed weapon because that is what you were holding at the time you cast the spell when it really should be based on the items that you currently use.
  • #42
    ^^I don't think you understand how skill damage works. You're mixing up sheet DPS and damage-per-cast.
  • #43
    I'm with Emberos on this and glad that someone is speaking the truth

    I can't believe this thread is on front page of diablofans.com. That's a pretty solid indicator that this game is dead
  • #44
    Quote from dizphare

    I am not sure how the game computes dps during the game. If it were me doing the programming, I would not want to calculate every item on your body each time you click a spell and multiply it the percentage of damage the spell is suppose to do. I would rather use the statsheet dps as a base number and multiply it with the skill damage. It would be less computer intensive. So when people say IAS is only good for paper damage and not true damage, I think it might be a mistake. I thought the same thing until witching hour dropped for me. It was the only IAS item I had, but it increased my dps by 8k on the screen. The difference between belts was about 100 less intelligence but had IAS and a small amount of Crit damage under 50%. After using it, things died so much quicker. Using it with bears obliterated packs while giving me plenty of mana left over for the next pack. If IAS didn't matter for dps, the small increase in crit damage and drop in intelligence should not allow me to steamroll over packs, but it did. If you think that IAS should not be giving you that much damage boost since technically it shouldn't improve your damage just remember that programmers can be lazy/efficient and create a simplified dps calculation not based on your normal thinking process. If you play a monk, there was a dps boost that you can do where you place a two handed big dps weapon and start sweeping wind and then switch to two weapons for the life on hit and faster attack speeds. The cyclones will be based on the higher dps two handed weapon because that is what you were holding at the time you cast the spell when it really should be based on the items that you currently use.

    Good thing it's not you doing the programming, because you have no idea what you are talking about
  • #45
    A 1 hander vs 2 hander topic is very old, it's been heavily discussed since beta days in forums. What you are talking and calculating so far is purely farming of low MPs. That is not the OPs topic - the topic is the 'complete' guide to WD. Surely what you are suggesting so far, Emberos, makes a difference in farming alone, however how does that reflect on the MP10 ubers?

    It is definitely possible to use a slow 2 hander there, surely it has certain benefits, but overall most higher end players will shy away from a 2 hander in MP10 ubers and vote for 1h+oh setup. This heavily depends on the skill setup you are using as well, if you are using manitou / pyrogeist then surely skorn is going to win by a mile, if you are using spamming skills in high MPs then a 1h+oh is going to win.

    The bigger topic i find people tend to overlook is versatility of their gear setup. Surely you can buy a decent mid-end skorn for farming low MPs alone, surely you can have another set of decent 1h+oh for high MPs, but you end up having 2 sets of mediocre gear. Instead you might as well invest into a single high end set of gear that would work for both. Now - at this point there is no argument - a 1h+OH with all the +% dmg modifiers for black dmg wpns along with +dmg on rings / amulets is going to out weight a skorn setup for the high end setup, this has been mathed out meticulously.

    Emberos, with your setup - i quite honestly do not understand the purpose (not insulting you in any way, just a different perspective on things) - from what i undestand - you are trying to avoid AIS to save gold. That being the case, you might as well take it one step further and make the whole build even cheaper and faster - go for pestilence build. Get a 2 handed mace (0.9 APS) with 1300-1600 dmg range, you need 0% crit chance and 0% crit dmg, stack as much INT as possible. All you have to do is cast locust swarm once in a while and keep running (1-2 casts of bears will finish any elite), anything in MP0 or even MP1 will die with a single cast of swarm even if it doesn't crit. In fact there was a thread on that somewhere recently, you could still obtain similar 70ish mil XP an hour with that, more so - that setup requires NONE of the expensive stats - you literally need 0 AIS 0 CC 0 CD for it to work.

    If you are not aiming to create a purely MP0-1 farming setup, then you will, inevitably, going to have to invest into AIS gear as that is the only means of achieving high end DPS via +dmg% and +dmg stats. Certainly there has been a number of topics about AIS in general and it's benefits to DPS, there have been arguments about it being useful at all beyond the spreadsheet DPS and it does vary from class to class and even from build to build. Acid rain build for MP0-1 where you one shot everything is going to have minimal benefit as you shown in your vid (nicely done btw), however if you are going with a spirit barrage build for MP10 ubers - then AIS is going to make a much more significant difference to you provided you can sustain the mana requirements.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
    -- Albert Einstein

  • #46
    Everything in my posts about IAS is very specifically about low MP WD Acid Rain farming. I noted that early on:

    Quote from Emberos

    I'm not saying IAS doesn't have a place . . . but in a speed run MP0-3 Acid Rain build, I don't care about it a bit.

    It should also be clear even Projaxs in his discussion back was talking strictly from a farm build perspective as well. In fact, topic title notwithstanding, Low MP Farming is the only part of this "complete" guide that is live now -- so what else would we be discussing?

    My purpose is to not waste gold by prioritizing a stat that has very little effect on my current goals. I've seen the Locust Swarm build -- I had my current gear long before Aerialus posted it so, although it's a good build and shows how creative Aerialus can be, I'm not really going backward especially when I'm getting similar results with the advantages of missing less gold and legendary drops. I'm also not going to agree with someone who says you need IAS for this build to work better for farming. It's clear you don't.

    I don't disagree with your points about high MP farming a bit . . . but all of the stuff you are saying about higher MP farming will be relevant at some point that is not now for me or now for 95% of us that don't see any real value in farming high MP anything at the moment. I have other videos that show farming MP6 and 7 ubers solo in which I don't use any significant IAS so I'd also say it's not necessary there -- though certainly more beneficial. Eventually, when I'm paragon 100, I'll worry about if I care about adding IAS to my setup -- prices will likely come down by then so I don't really see the point in buying tri-fecta gear at today's inflated pricing when I don't need to use it.

    Also, while a 1h vs 2h topic is "very old" as you say, it's most often been discussed in terms of sustained, stand-and-deliver damage versus this very specific conversation about how much cast delay is there on the first cast of a skill when using 1h vs 2h. Duration of pause in movement due to casting correlated to weapon speed is something no one even really cared about until we start trying to min/max efficiency in speed xp runs. I personally think having the conversation has been helpful and informative -- which I hope is the purpose of any of these class specific threads. Having authored / moderated multiple high-end raiding Moonkin guides in my WoW days, I know that expanding class and mechanic knowledge was the main thing people wanted out of those threads -- I'd expect much the same here.
  • #47
    Emberos is correct: the whole IAS discussion was regarding XP speed farming at very low MPs. I don't know why MP10 and ubers were brought up at all.
  • #48
    Emberos,

    Nice job with your wd. Your findings are supported, however if you guys don't already use it d3up.com is a great site to crunch numbers and see the actual results of what each stat does for your spells... At the end of the day your char sheet dps is very important. 1h, mojo vs 2h... I just can't justify the loss of cc and raw damage numbers on the mojo. For my gear at this level the difference is over 100k to switch to a 2h... Mp 0-1 para farming 80-130k is fine. The only way to increase this is to understand how your damage is calculated. In emberos's case he's pretty solid and over the threshold for that difficulty. The biggest difference in the amount of paragon xp per hour comes from minimizing the dead time between mobs. So basically the difference between 200k dps and 150 is a little but not a lot on mp0-1 if you one shot things you one shot things. Casting time makes a small difference that adds up at the end, but not much... the purpose of ias is needed in all builds. at the end of the day to calculate your damage the formula is SCAM. I'm typing this on my mobile ha so for more details check out d3up.com on the left side for a real time interactive explanation. Ias is a multiplier that is the 2nd highest contribution to wd dps after cc. In my current gear 1%cc= 3,500 approx damage, 1%ias = 1,700, 1cd = 315... So I completely agree that short term ias is not needed to make the build work but if you want to raise your wd to the next level it can't be disregarded. Top wd's are all 1h,mojo with 3-400dps unbuffed some even without ptv passive... Another great reference is diablo progress to compare gear and see how far some wd's have gone the best of the best 419 unbuffed if he switched up his build I was able to crunch it on d3up to 913k and even as high as 1.2mil... Fully buffed... you guys are all adding great objective feedback and I'm happy this thread exists... wd dps is unlike the others as we scale much higher off each stat. = )

    Good job all = )
  • #49
    You can stick to your 'low MP farming = 0 AIS' point all day long, doesn't change anything. The fact of the matter is - the guide is the 'complete' guide to the WD. That is what the title says. There are sections that are not done yet, but the key word is YET. If you want to address this thread as a 'MP0-1 farming for WD' then you should open up your mind a little.

    Now, if you want to get real mathematical about min-maxing to the true bottom line of the matter:
    - It is VERY EASY to obtain a point of gear where you are able to one-shot every white mob in the A3 even with a 1 hander
    - lets minimize the amount of times you are going to cast your acid rain in the alkaizer run, instead of using 1'000 lets use 500
    - using a 1h vs 2h as you yourself have shown in the video there is a difference in the amount of time required to cast something, an undeniable fact, may be as small are 0.1 seconds, but it still is there
    - now lets assume you have increased your AIS to reduce the cast time by 0.1 seconds per cast, so instead of your 'stutter stepping' which takes lets say 0.6 seconds to cast, it takes 0.5s seconds to cast
    - over 500 casts that is 0.6*500=300s 0.5*500=250s, delta of 50 seconds.
    - 50 seconds reduction in time over a single run that should be 8 minutes top on an MP0-1
    - a reduction from 8 minutes to 7min 10 sec = 11% difference
    - taking your base 70mil XP/h calculation you are adding 11% to that making it into 77.7mil XP/h

    Hence if you are willing to approach this whole discussion from purely min-maxing low MP farming - your argument makes no sense whatsoever mathematically. The whole point of min-maxing low MP farming is to squeeze out every second of time to maximize that X mil XP / hour farmed - you can argue all you wish that the difference is 'really really small' however multiplying it over the total amount of casts per run and then per hour would generate a significant delta in XP/hour farmed no matter the 'smallness' of the difference to begin with. Lets keep in mind that a change in the time required to cast something using stutter movement is not going to be 0.1 seconds - it'll be a higher difference between a 1 hander and a 2 hander, if you wish to go further into this matter,

    - please ensure that in your vid the move speed is the same between different tests, just change wpns, say put a wizardspike with 1.6 APS vs 0.9 APS 2 handed mace
    - use the slow motion of either windows movie maker or some other app and calculate the exact millisecond time difference between the two stutter stepping

    Then we can figure out the more 'accurate' % change in XP/hour, however, what i am telling you is that your argument is completely invalid:
    - like i mentioned it is VERY EASY to obtain a point of gear where you are one shotting every white mob in A3 on MP0-1
    - hence beyond that point there is no reason for you to gear towards CC or CD, those 2 stats might reduce each elite kill time with bears by may be 1 second, over max of 15 elites per run you will gain only 15 seconds of time saved
    - AIS will save you more time per run even with a 0.1 second reduction to the stutter step time required per cast which is 'barely noticeable' you are going to gain 50 seconds saved per run, which nets to adding an equivalent of 11% XP / hour farmed to your min-maxing of farm runs


    Conclusion:
    What this shows is that AIS will add more value to your XP/hour perspective than CC or CD would beyond a point where you one shot everything in A3 on MP0-1, and that point of gearing is far too easy to obtain.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
    -- Albert Einstein

  • #50
    Sorry who is the above aimed at??
  • #51
    Emberos' argument that AIS has no effect on farming
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
    -- Albert Einstein

  • #52
    Nobody cares on bloddy mp10 ubbers. XP is farmed on low MP. Items is best farmed at low MP. Sure there IAS got a place at higher MP and the reason for that is, you dont use acid rain. You use a completely different spec. This debate are about effective WD farming. And as most should know effective is only done on the low mp. And as Emberos says IAS provide zero benefits, its just a stat you will pay extra for, and all ias will give you is useless sheet dps.
    Currently played toon:
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  • #53
    Not going to quote your whole post Demo. Just going to respond to the points:

    1) This "Complete" guide argument is a distraction. Again, I have authored and moderated guides that were far more complete and complex than this and divided into sections and sub-sections. Even at that point, any sub-section or even any single bullet point in a sub-section was open for discussion and/or debate on its own merits. Which, by the way, if anyone authors a guide and doesn't expect points to be challenged or discussed, they probably should do something different with their time. Honestly, the whole point of guides is to promote discussion. Speaking of discussion, at this point we are discussing the only part of this guide that is anywhere near complete. Let's move on from this line as it's non-productive.

    2) As to the open mind bit, I'm just going to say in the IAS video, I did show there was a difference in even the initial cast time between 1h and 2h and even a very small difference with a change to just IAS . . . which, btw, was contrary to my original position. How close minded of me to actually go through the trouble to not only admit that but also create and post a video showing it. :)


    Honestly, this alone has made the whole discussion worth having because it does start to show the real element of choice is not around IAS but around much larger weapon speed differences. My mind is open to discussion on that matter though I do still feel that the MP0-3 discussion does not appear to be an IAS conversation but a 1h vs 2h conversation. It really took very large numbers of weapon speed change to create a difference of any significance. Assuming infinite budget, yes, go bathe yourself in IAS. Rub it behind your ears and frolic in it. But, if we consider that we can't do things assuming infinite budget and we have to prioritize -- I'd say the choice is between 1h and 2h and not about how much IAS we can stack.


    3) Your math, while interesting, also over-simplifies a bit. The problem is not that cut and dry. As much as we want to be moving forward every single micro-second we are not. Many casts are net-neutral in regards to forward progress. There are also very likely extra casts on elites with a 1-hander versus 2-hander given the damage range. You also can't treat as a core assumption there will be the exact same number of casts even on white mobs with 1h and 2h setups when people start to put on high XP gear. Watch Projaxs vids and watch him double-casting on even white packs because his overall damage range has dropped so much due to wearing XP gear that the 1h/oh damage range just isn't cutting it anymore. Meanwhile I'm still 1 cast and go with a 2hander, high Acid Rain CC and CD. Btw, I'm not saying a 1h/oh setup may not be superior -- it might be -- it's just not that simple.

    4) My video is using very controlled circumstances just to show there is a difference and relatively how much per attack or weapon speed. Also, I annotated the video already on the movement speed -- I was using the gear I had just to discover and show a difference. There are still several valid data points to compare in the vid as noted in my annotations and I'm not going to buy gear to redo it -- you can feel free to buy the gear, slow mo, and calculate to the exact millisecond though. :)

    Note point 3 though, even if we had exact millisecond difference, we still can't just multiply number of casts time millisecond difference and declare "WA-LA, your run is now 11% faster with IAS!!". That said, one of the best comparisons to highlight IAS was naked Skorn versus Skorn +9% attack speed -- which quite frankly there was barely any discernible difference -- very much milliseconds versus tenths of seconds. It really did take going to a 1hander before it got significant.


    5) My conclusion at this point is, if I had infinite budget, sure throw IAS on everything -- it definitely doesn't hurt. If I don't have infinite budget, I should spend what budget I do have getting to the point where I can effectively and reliably one-shot everything even in high-XP/max MF gear (note the impact and budget constraints of max MF are higher for people that are lower on Paragon levels). Also, while you trivialize getting to to this point as “far to easy to obtain” and a core assumption that we all have enough Intel, CC, CD, and weapon damage to one shot everything, it bears repeating that right in this thread you can watch a high-end WD put on XP gear and fail to do exactly that while using the smaller damage range of a 1h/oh setup. What I am trying to point out is the budget value of IAS relative to other stats and quite honestly, given the extremely small benefit per % of IAS and the cost of each %, it's still pretty low on my totem pole for a MP0-1 farming build.
  • #54
    Now it's just getting embarrassing.
    TheDemokin, your sidestepping skills are commendable. Kudos on not addressing the actual points, and making up a whole new discussion in your own mind.
  • #55
    This thread is about discussion and about wd in general.. and ofc about each section. I will propably get lvl 100 about next week cause im Raid leader in wow and we are progressing throu hc progress as 1st 10man group on realm anyway.

    I realy like TheDemonkin post about ias that is what Ive found out aswell. But ofc Emberos got truth aswell. It should not be 11% but still its quite personal thing if you like two hander or onehander. Or if u want to use onehander or two-hander.

    Anyway emberos I think that health globe from dogs is more or less overkill. Atleast what I saw in your videos
  • #56
    Quote from maka

    Now it's just getting embarrassing.
    TheDemokin, your sidestepping skills are commendable. Kudos on not addressing the actual points, and making up a whole new discussion in your own mind.


    You're absolutely right, in your own mind.

    So lets not respond to the outside points yea.


    Quote from Emberos

    3) Your math, while interesting, also over-simplifies a bit. The problem is not that cut and dry. As much as we want to be moving forward every single micro-second we are not. Many casts are net-neutral in regards to forward progress. There are also very likely extra casts on elites with a 1-hander versus 2-hander given the damage range. You also can't treat as a core assumption there will be the exact same number of casts even on white mobs with 1h and 2h setups when people start to put on high XP gear. Watch Projaxs vids and watch him double-casting on even white packs because his overall damage range has dropped so much due to wearing XP gear that the 1h/oh damage range just isn't cutting it anymore. Meanwhile I'm still 1 cast and go with a 2hander. Btw, I'm not saying a 1h/oh setup may not be superior -- it might be -- it's just not that simple.


    That is exactly the assumptions made:
    1) You are one shotting things, with a single cast, every time, once again that point of gearing is by far not hard to obtain with extremely cheap gear for MP0. Surely MP1 might be a stretch on certain mobs, but if you are not one shotting things - move down the MP
    2) You cannot say that there is going to be a difference in the total number of casts required simple because of point 1 above
    3) Surely you can argue that in certain runs mobs are going to be more clustered, etc and that the total number of casts required is going to vary between runs, we are not going to indulge in that because that makes any sort of comparison worthless and even the 70m XP/hour is worthless given such circumstances
    4) There are only 2 states you character could have in the game: 1 = moving, 2 = casting. Lets not consider afking blah for the sake of comparison. Therefore your time in the game is spent on only 2 things either moving or casting. The total time you spend in the game is going to be time spent moving + time spent casting. The problem is exactly that dry and simple, reducing either the time you spent moving or the time you spent casing = reducing the total time in the game.

    Quote from Emberos

    4) My video is using very controlled circumstances just to show there is a difference and relatively how much per attack or weapon speed. Also, I annotated the video already on the movement speed -- I was using the gear I had just to discover and show a difference. There are still several valid data points to compare in the vid as noted in my annotations and I'm not going to buy gear to redo it -- you can feel free to buy the gear, slow mo, and calculate to the exact millisecond though. :)

    Your video experiment is flawed as someone pointed out in the vid on youtube: you are using lacunis, which provides MS, which made the whole comparison rather obsolete.

    Quote from Emberos

    Note point 3 though, even if we had exact millisecond difference, we still can't just multiply number of casts time millisecond difference and declare "WA-LA, your run is now 11% faster with IAS!!". That said, one of the best comparisons to highlight IAS was naked Skorn versus Skorn +9% attack speed -- which quite frankly there was barely any discernible difference -- very much milliseconds versus tenths of seconds. It really did take going to a 1hander before it got significant.

    The first sentence makes no mathematical sense whatsoever. Absolute zero. It is as simple as that, a number of casts times the amount of time it requires the cast to happen for 2h vs 1h and you get the difference (the assumption 1 above). You do not have to buy a whole new set of gear, neither do you need to be naked, you are not testing damage - you are testing APS effect on the amount of time it takes for you to move off after a cast. You just need a 5k gold worth blue ring with 9 AIS on it x2, and an amulet if you wish to experiment further.

    Quote from Emberos

    5) My conclusion at this point is, if I had infinite budget, sure throw IAS on everything -- it definitely doesn't hurt. If I don't have infinite budget, I should spend what budget I do have getting to the point where I can effectively and reliably one-shot everything even in high-XP/max MF gear (note the impact and budget constraints of max MF are higher for people that are lower on Paragon levels). Also, while you trivialize getting to to this point as “far to easy to obtain” and a core assumption that we all have enough Intel, CC, CD, and weapon damage to one shot everything, it bears repeating that right in this thread you can watch a high-end WD put on XP gear and fail to do exactly that while using the smaller damage range of a 1h/oh setup. What I am trying to point out is the budget value of IAS relative to other stats and quite honestly, given the extremely small benefit per % of IAS and the cost of each %, it's still pretty low on my totem pole for a MP0-1 farming build.


    Again, going back to the first assumption:
    you are one shotting white mobs all the time.
    What this implies is that you are NOT relying on CC or CD. If you do - you are not going to be able to one shot things ALL THE TIME, but rather only the CC% based amount of times.
    Your argument was that CC and CD make a difference to farming. Follow this simple logic from the 2 points above and you will quickly realize that CD and CC make in fact NO DIFFERENCE at all as you are one shotting things with normal attacks (non-crits). Your argument also states that AIS makes no difference to farming. That is exactly the opposite of true. At the point where you are consistently one shotting things without crits - the ONLY that stat makes a difference to your farming speed is AIS (out of the CD/CC/AIS as we are not comparing the other stats here)

    This isn't just flawed on the level of simplest math, but it is also flawed on the basis of simplest logic.

    Surely if you are going to take out the assumption that you are one shotting mobs all the time with non-crit casts - then it would certainly make a difference. However, even in that case - you are only going to need to increase your CD by perhaps 20% to ensure you one shot mobs with crits. At this point you stack CC to the max possible amount you could obtain. At that point - CD plays absolutely no value in gearing any further. At this point AIS makes even bigger difference than in the previous scenario - simply because you are having to use an even larger amount of total casts.

    Now, the last point - IF you are stating that the point of one shotting white mobs with a single cast is NOT obtainable by any means with a 1 hander in MP0 - then it will be a simple case of 2 hander being more efficient. However, given such curcumstance - once again you are going to have to go back to getting CD 20% followed by capping CC and then stacking AIS to the max because at that point ONLY AIS will make the difference out of the 3 given stats.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
    -- Albert Einstein

  • #57
    The video is fine -- there are still quite a few comparison points where no Lacunis came into play and I swapped in the belt or changed weapon. Again it's noted now in the annotations. It's not perfect but it accomplishes its purpose -- so not obsolete but simply flawed on the portions of it that had Lacunis. The other data points give a good view of the impact (as mentioned above Skorn vs Skorn +9% IAS belt).

    Yes, you are right, if we take out all other variables and assume every cast will one-shot every mob, IAS and weapon speed are the only stats that matter. Guess what, there are other variables - including the fact that your core belief that we should assume we can easily gear to one-shot everything at MP0 while also maintaining max xp/mf stats is flawed. However, at this point, I've already stated them and we are just going back and forth stating and restating the same things and it becomes so much noise.

    We're just spinning in circles at this point and should probably agree to agree and yet disagree at the same time. In fact, if the game were currently up right now, the only thing I would say with absolute certainty is that I know for a fact that I am more efficient without IAS playing the game then sitting here on the forums arguing with you about not having it :)

    I guess to try and net it out and agree as much as I can before not posting on this topic again: yes, IAS becomes worthwhile as a stat even in farm runs but only AFTER you have addressed max MF/XP and the ability to reliably one-shot most white mobs at MP0. I would say this is not as straightforward easy and automatic as you make it out to be. For instance, consider my most recent upgrade as an example: should I have spent 39 mil on a 27% XP Leoric's ring or XX mill on a trifecta IAS,CC,CD Intel ring? It's a question of budget and slot opportunity cost. Understanding the relative worth of IAS when making these decisions is the point of my posts -- I'm not saying it has no worth just that it is very incremental worth only tied to very small movement speed increase per % of IAS and that should be considered when you are making gear decisions.
  • #58
    Quote from Emberos

    Yes, you are right, if we take out all other variables and assume every cast will one-shot every mob, IAS and weapon speed are the only stats that matter. Guess what, there are other variables - including the fact that your core belief that we should assume we can easily gear to one-shot everything at MP0 while also maintaining max xp/mf stats is flawed. However, at this point, I've already stated them and we are just going back and forth stating and restating the same things and it becomes so much noise.

    Quote from TheDemokin

    Again, going back to the first assumption:
    you are one shotting white mobs all the time.
    What this implies is that you are NOT relying on CC or CD. If you do - you are not going to be able to one shot things ALL THE TIME, but rather only the CC% based amount of times.
    Your argument was that CC and CD make a difference to farming. Follow this simple logic from the 2 points above and you will quickly realize that CD and CC make in fact NO DIFFERENCE at all as you are one shotting things with normal attacks (non-crits). Your argument also states that AIS makes no difference to farming. That is exactly the opposite of true. At the point where you are consistently one shotting things without crits - the ONLY that stat makes a difference to your farming speed is AIS (out of the CD/CC/AIS as we are not comparing the other stats here)

    This isn't just flawed on the level of simplest math, but it is also flawed on the basis of simplest logic.

    Surely if you are going to take out the assumption that you are one shotting mobs all the time with non-crit casts - then it would certainly make a difference. However, even in that case - you are only going to need to increase your CD by perhaps 20% to ensure you one shot mobs with crits. At this point you stack CC to the max possible amount you could obtain. At that point - CD plays absolutely no value in gearing any further. At this point AIS makes even bigger difference than in the previous scenario - simply because you are having to use an even larger amount of total casts.

    Now, the last point - IF you are stating that the point of one shotting white mobs with a single cast is NOT obtainable by any means with a 1 hander in MP0 - then it will be a simple case of 2 hander being more efficient. However, given such curcumstance - once again you are going to have to go back to getting CD 20% followed by capping CC and then stacking AIS to the max because at that point ONLY AIS will make the difference out of the 3 given stats.
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
    -- Albert Einstein

  • #59
    First off, I'd like to thank everyone here (except for a select few) that have contributed to this topic as I have found it extremely informative and helpful.
    In regards to the most recent discussion between Emberos and TheDemokin, I would like to point out a few things.
    - While he makes his points with unnecessary anger, TheDemokin's points are entirely valid.
    - Emberos, you stated that his numbers were skewed because often times casts are net-neutral in regards to forward progress. While this is certainly an interesting idea, it is incorrect. This is because you make these types of casts with both 1-hand and 2-hand setups. Therefore the only relevant variable in this regards is total distance travelled per run, which obviously plays no roll on what weapon you are using.
    - You also made a point that when it comes to elite packs using a 1-hander setup will result in more casts. This is of course true but you oversimplified this scenerio by not accounting the fact that multiple casts with both setups are needed, so weapon speed has to be factored in. Simply put 5/1.4=3.57 which is less than 4/1=4. In other words, the faster attack speed negates the extra cast(s). (Note that as the game is currently down for maintenence so I can not provide accurate numbers. I'm sure I inflated my example to support a 1-hand setup, and that it may be possible that in actual practice, a 2-hand setup wins in this scenerio. My point still stands though that you oversimplified things a bit).
    - The final thing that I wish to discuss is about whether it is possible to actually 1-shot white mobs with a 1-hand setup. In this I believe Emberos to be absolutely correct. It has been shown that Cain's set and Leoric's ring provide more exp/hour, and therefore if we are talking min/maxing, they should be worn. If this is the case then I doubt it is possible to 1-shot every white mob with a 1-hander. (At least not for 99% of WD's.) I feel TheDemokin is simply being stubborn on this issue.
    The only real way to end this argument is to perform an experiment with a large enough sample size using each setup.Use the same gear and only swap out the 1-hand and 2-hand weapons. Obviously the 2 setups have to have similar if not the same dps to be valid.
    I believe the result would be, and this is purely speculation on my part, that the 1-hand setup barely comes out ahead. It would be interesting to see if the results are actually non-negligible, but in the end I believe that they would simply show that you should use your personal preference.
  • #60
    1 cast with a two hander or 2 cast with a one hander.. Tough one.
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