[complete guide] by Projax 1.0.5 WD

  • #21
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDKGnjjYEsU
  • #22
    In the video, you say that you didn't show starting xp for this run but . . . when you started the run, you briefly hovered over your xp (about the 28 to 29 second mark) and you have 68,028,229 xp. You don't really start the run til 1:05 and then you end the run at 11:10 at 79,602,131 xp. That's 11,573,902 xp over 10.08 minutes = 68.892 mil xp/hr. Somehow in the vid you caclulate the run at 82 mil xp/hr . . . pretty large error there.

    Still a nice boost from Cain's but not nearly 80 mil. Not sure how I missed this vid originally -- guess I need to subsribe :)
  • #23
    well im prety sure my calculation is right. Will remake the video to proof that
  • #24
    I m running with a skorn as well. I used to do it with Emberos Gear (Visage +SOJ with 7%+8% crit on acidcloud), now i m too lazy and just run in my regular gear. It feels much more fluent with a skorn and high dps tbh. I literally never run out of mana with my dps either. I m not stopping my XP anymore. I can easily do 50mill+, but I also collect 25+ yellows every run. I think i could easily do much more xp, but i like having gold :P
  • #25

    well im prety sure my calculation is right. Will remake the video to proof that


    Your calculation is wrong. I do the math in my post above and I pull the XP and run time directly from your vid. This isn't something to argue about -- it's right there for anyone to see.

    Btw, I'm not saying you can't do 80 million XP/hr with Cain's. What I am saying is this video doesn't come anywhere near demonstrating those types of numbers and I will be very, very impressed if/when you post a legit video showing 80 mil XP/hr wearing 3 pieces of Cain's . . . or an 80 mil XP/hr video under any circumstance. That's a really tough reach to sustain those kind of numbers . . . even when the run sets up perfectly.
  • #26
    will reshoot video. Anyway you can keep 80mil / hour but its somehow frustrating ;) cause you need to minmax everypoint in game. Anyway took long break from diablo now (4days) gona make the video next week prop wednesday
  • #27
    You talked about in one of your videos, about how awesome you are at admiting when your numbers are wrong. In your video above we can see your xp before you go, around 28 sec in, and you show the xp when your done. Emberos did the exact calculations, showing that you didnt do 82m per hour as you said, but 68.

    You then chose to argue and do talk arounds, instead of admitting you were wrong.

    /golfclap
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  • #28
    well all the previsous was correct I propably did wrong calculation or get written down different number. So sorry bout htat but still the video is comming with 80 mil xp ;) sorry for missunderstanding.
  • #29
    this is similar build im using on uber bosses - not exactly the one but some of the spells are there + explaining uber boss build at the end


    leave feedback what you think

    its based on nonstop spirit barage to get insane Mana regen and then using some acid bomb to cleave the bosses for 230% wep dmg (bears can be used aswell but i like killing stuff from long range)


    and If anyone who read this is aiming for wd reroll there is 10mil budget guide by me + in the 1st post there is actual video me making 55 mil xp /hour (hopefuly this time the calculation is ok)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGa5t3HLPfQ
  • #30
    Ive tested your build vs the build i run. The build i run seems a little faster.

    My build: http://eu.battle.net...UXdT!TYe!acZZYa

    Zombie bears for elites. I use honored guest in spiritwalk for mana. I use Spirit Vessel passive to remove additionel 2 secs cd from spirit walk and horrify. And the last skillspot you can use Gargantuan or Mass Confusion with paranoia.

    It seems to be the fastest xp build posible. Im pretty much all the time around 80m xp/hour without cain's set. But i do have hellfire + Leoric's signet on both myself and my follower. Making me sit at 190.7% xp on mp1. I run with 53 pickup radius to make sure i always have pretty much have no cooldown on my 2 mobility skills.

    Spirit Vessel + 53 yards pickup radius = Quick as fuck : p

    edit: At some point when i can find some time, ill try slap cain's set on aswell and see how that impact my xp /hour.
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  • #31
    Emberos - there is nothing to test actually. Projax is absolutely right on the fact that IAS does speed up the runs a LOT. You are really missing the basic logic behind this:

    1 - you are going low MP to ONE shot things - if you don't you go even lower MP
    2 - you have to cast, for example a total of 1'000 acid rains to clear a full alkaizer run
    3 - you are doing it with a 1.0 attack speed skorn = you will spend a total of 1'000 seconds casting acid rain while STANDING still
    4 - you are using 1 hander + OH with a total attack speed of 2.0 APS = you spend 1'000*0.5=500 seconds casting acid rain while standing still
    5 = 500 is twice as small as 1'000. Actually wait, no, 1'000 is twice as big as 500. Yep, now that makes sense yea?
    "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
    -- Albert Einstein

  • #32

    Hi all,

    Firstly I'd like to say good job projax on your efforts to communicate the true essence of the witch doctors power and effectiveness. The main difference is that the wd's power grows the more creatures are around and thus becomes a very powerful solo tool or a very strong support class. This is one reason why its harder for a wd to pull out huge dps on azmo mp 10 with out soul harvest and gruesome feast active. For farming paragon tho your build is what I have been using for the past few months now with some minor changes. One thing I would like to raise tho... "Thing of the deep" is not mandatory for this build to work but I will say the more pick up radius you have the better. The reason I say this is that you can find a much higher dps mojo and use p/u on other equipment. So if u need it it's the easiest and cheapest to obtain to start. Secondly in your video I noticed two parts to your build that could be changed to increase the power and efficiency... Firstly passive "circle of life" in my opinion is a wasted slot and should be replaced with "pierce the veil" 20% scales your dps and boosts the effectiveness of gruesome feast by a lot. Secondly great choice on sacrafice... people dnt realise its true purpose a huge amount of dps instantly on the target. i it literaly is the big bang button for when you find that champ pack or big group of trash. 236x3 is rougly 1.8mil damage with my current stats... whic leads me into my next point... put zombie dogs on your bar...why? because in most cases with this build you can sac dogs then instantly resummon them and sac again for 4mil or more damage. so if you dont get that champ down in one go its def gone by the second if u havnt already finished them off with your main attack... now the added bonus for having dogs on your bar is this... use "provoke the pack" for a dps buff of 15% for 30sec... which if your smart and efficent enough you can keep active 90% of the run 45 sec sounds like a lot but when your killing about 20-30 mobs within 20secs it makes a huge difference. For this reason i dont use acid cloud. i rely on soul harvest vengeful spirit to blow groups up for 235% and fire bomb ghost bomb tune for aoe for 1 reason... With high attack speed it is alot faster to spam that then acid cloud as it requires no mana. Easiest way for me to explain this is against my stats... Before I mention this I have used this against lower dps stats and same results. I have 240 dps unbuffed. With ptv 20% provoke the pack 15% feast 50 percent of int soul harvest 650 int... At full buffs I jump from 240 to 468k. Now yes I know this is not constant... But even without feast I am above 300 for at the very least 30 seconds. I have tried this dropping one of my rings and picking up a leoric and my max I can hit is 430. I recently got a couple new gears but before I was running on 195k and used this build to farm 60mil/hr for the last 15para levels.. I havnt tried cains set with this so I will later to test the results... My tag Morkai#1419 I'm currently in a higher mp build but. Thought u might like to mix some of my findings and together we can show how great the witch doc is = )


    I forgot to mention...life steal isn't needed for this build as globes =health and each mobs death is 2% life... Life steal is def very nice but can be expensive on weapons.. For reflect damage champs... Pop spirit walk then sac dogs... U gain immunity to damage and can remove the champs before the reflect dam becomes a problem... = )
  • #33

    Emberos - there is nothing to test actually. Projax is absolutely right on the fact that IAS does speed up the runs a LOT. You are really missing the basic logic behind this:

    1 - you are going low MP to ONE shot things - if you don't you go even lower MP
    2 - you have to cast, for example a total of 1'000 acid rains to clear a full alkaizer run
    3 - you are doing it with a 1.0 attack speed skorn = you will spend a total of 1'000 seconds casting acid rain while STANDING still
    4 - you are using 1 hander + OH with a total attack speed of 2.0 APS = you spend 1'000*0.5=500 seconds casting acid rain while standing still
    5 = 500 is twice as small as 1'000. Actually wait, no, 1'000 is twice as big as 500. Yep, now that makes sense yea?


    Thats only true if you stand still and cast. But if your studder stepping, as every WD farming with acid rain should, Emberos is correct. IAS will barely change anything. As long as you dont have to wait for the 1,0 aps swing timer, ias gives you nothing cept useless sheet dps.
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  • #34

    Emberos - there is nothing to test actually. Projax is absolutely right on the fact that IAS does speed up the runs a LOT. You are really missing the basic logic behind this:

    1 - you are going low MP to ONE shot things - if you don't you go even lower MP
    2 - you have to cast, for example a total of 1'000 acid rains to clear a full alkaizer run
    3 - you are doing it with a 1.0 attack speed skorn = you will spend a total of 1'000 seconds casting acid rain while STANDING still
    4 - you are using 1 hander + OH with a total attack speed of 2.0 APS = you spend 1'000*0.5=500 seconds casting acid rain while standing still
    5 = 500 is twice as small as 1'000. Actually wait, no, 1'000 is twice as big as 500. Yep, now that makes sense yea?


    What you keep forgetting is manamanagement. Just look at Projax runs, he can run out of mana. This will never happen if you use a skorn. You will need 1-3 shots for elitepacks on mp2 with decent dps(3for extra health) with a skorn, you will need 5+ on a lot of packs with 1h+offhand.
    There are a lot of factors not only ias imo :)
  • #35
    well its personal choice ofc. Skorn is better in killing yellows faster. but to actualy make it realy good --- i means you will spend alot of gold on that gear. (or just more)

    about lifesteal - yep its def stat but it realy realy helps on elites with reflect even tho spirit walk is there for 3sec. sometimes its not enought.

    Anyway im glad about discussion there. Alot of u guys got alot of nice ideas I might try leoric signet aswell.
  • #36

    Emberos - there is nothing to test actually. Projax is absolutely right on the fact that IAS does speed up the runs a LOT. You are really missing the basic logic behind this:

    1 - you are going low MP to ONE shot things - if you don't you go even lower MP
    2 - you have to cast, for example a total of 1'000 acid rains to clear a full alkaizer run
    3 - you are doing it with a 1.0 attack speed skorn = you will spend a total of 1'000 seconds casting acid rain while STANDING still
    4 - you are using 1 hander + OH with a total attack speed of 2.0 APS = you spend 1'000*0.5=500 seconds casting acid rain while standing still
    5 = 500 is twice as small as 1'000. Actually wait, no, 1'000 is twice as big as 500. Yep, now that makes sense yea?


    Beast and Hum have already stated it but, yeah, I'm not missing any basic logic here. You only wait the additional swing time if you are casting successively. If you are stutter casting while moving, the first cast of Acid Rain takes the exact same amount of time with a fast weapon as it does with a slow weapon. Where it would have an effect is if I was standing around waiting for the next cast and I am not standing around waiting for a swing timer, I am moving, moving, moving.

    In fact, if anything, depending on your damage, a faster weapon that doesn't hit as hard is the real liability in these runs because you may have to cast twice on each pack to make sure it dies whereas I can safely cast once. That's two full stops to movement to cast for a MH/OH setup and 1 full stop of movement for a 2 hand. These extra casts can also cause mana issues. If your damage is high enough, even a 1H/OH can reliably one-shot at which point there is negligible difference between the two different setups.

    I also don't know that we can say a 2H Skorn setup is more expensive than a 1H/OH setup - a good 1h isn't cheap - neither is getting crit damage elsewhere to makeup for the extra you get on Skorn. It may be a wash -- I guess I'd say if you already have a good 1H/OH, no reason you NEED to get a Skorn to make this spec work. On the flip side, if you have a Skorn now, no reason you NEED to get a 1H/TotD setup either. If you are gearing up fresh and don't have either, I'd say go for the Skorn personally - but it's a choice where neither is really "wrong".

    Anyway, below is a video update to my initial Paragon farming vid that shows:

    a ) why what I'm saying above is true and what I mean by stutter-casting (and thus why a 2-hand is extremely viable and you don't need TotD to run this spec - I have 39 yds PuR from gear even without TotD)

    b ) why I think swapping 1 ring out for Leoric's will probably be better than swapping 3 pieces of Cain's gear (head, gloves, chest) - though if you have limited budget, I can see a reason to go with Cain's because you can get dirty-cheap 3-pc Cains for ~250k versus 39 mill I spent for a 27% Leoric's.

    c ) a spec variation that I think adds some real advantages (Circle of Life + Zombie Dogs / Final Gift interaction for more globes = more damage more mana = faster more consistent runs) - credit to Aerialus on this find. Note that consistent 5 globes can do more than PtV for damage without the mana penalty -- in fact, quite the opposite, this setup provides more damage AND more mana bonus

    d ) a 70 mil XP/hr Alk run


    I may follow up and do a run with Cain's AND Leoric's to see how that goes as well.

    It's worth saying I think Projaxs adds alot to the WD community and I appreciate his passion for the class and the vids he puts out. Clearly the things we are doing both work . . . we just happen to disagree on some of the finer points of what's necessary or better. There are others out there as well on these forums - Aerialus comes to mind - that are also pushing forward a ton of great ideas on farming specs and I know I'm always on the look out for small tweaks that make the spec more efficient. The Acid Rain farming spec has been around and going strong since 1.0.4 and getting stronger in 1.0.5. The more we keep the conversation going, the stronger the community gets, the more ideas that get injected, the stronger the spec gets, the better off we all are.
  • #37


    thats also true but then you need to boost up your IAS


    Why? It'd make my char sheet dps go up but have next to no practical use for me in game. The only items I have with IAS are belt and bracers -- and in both cases it's not because I was seeking the IAS but because the two items don't come without it -- and the other stats they have (movement speed on bracers and crit damage on belt) are unique to those slots. Honestly, you could remove IAS from both of them, and I'd be just as happy and effective even though my char sheet dps would drop.

    I'm not saying IAS doesn't have a place . . . but in a speed run MP0-3 Acid Rain build, I don't care about it a bit.


    Didn't you noticed a faster farming time when you used your Witching Hour? I know I did. Previously I had a rare belt with 150ish intelligence. The IAS made a big difference. I dont think the crit damage made such an improvement since i tried to switch out a ring that had crit damage. I actually thinks IAS with Skorn is really the best way to go. Since you have such high dps, why not use both bears and acid cloud? I made the change and it works great. One for trash and the other for elites?
  • #38
    Emeros when you get time tryout the build i use http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#RfUXdT!TYe!acZZYa and compared it to your current build. For me its a tad more xp /hour.
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  • #39
    im gonna try mp1 with leoric - got 23% one and lets see how it goes with that. got 4day break from d3 now due WoW progress ;) anyway will try to beat 75 mil at mp1

    with skorn the IAS is strong dps stat - not sure but even the first cast is slower but yeah its like -0,5 sec slower which your eye wont see.. or wont see that difference but in full run it will make a couple of seconds. So it does not realy matter much - its just minmaxing. but still it might do some mil xp / hour.

    not sure about zombie bears combined with acid rain. I tested it and i realy did not like it anyway.
  • #40

    with skorn the IAS is strong dps stat - not sure but even the first cast is slower but yeah its like -0,5 sec slower which your eye wont see.. or wont see that difference but in full run it will make a couple of seconds. So it does not realy matter much - its just minmaxing. but still it might do some mil xp / hour.


    I did some testing on the IAS subject and there is some interesting data for sure. I will be posting a video on it shortly but long and short, turns out we are both right and we are both wrong. There is a weapon-speed difference even on the first cast of Acid Rain and not just on successive casts . . . so that is definitely a different outcome than I expected there and not the way I'm used to games operating. It's very hard to notice unless you really get methodical about it and also does not appear to be anywhere near the full difference of weapon speed . . . but there is definitely a difference.

    That said, it really takes quite a bit of weapon speed change to notice any meaningful forward movement increase -- like 1.00 attacks per second versus 1.65 attacks per second . . . and even then the net effect is not huge. That's a prohibitive amount of IAS to add (extremely high cost for extremely low benefit). At smaller increases of 9% to 18% additional attack speed, it's hard to even spot the increase in forward movement unless you really do it in controlled conditions (and even 9%-18% IAS is very expensive to add for such small benefit). Alll of that taken into consideration, I'd still challenge whether IAS is a powerful stat that we should prioritize for Acid Rain farming.

    The cost versus benefit is greatly skewed in the wrong direction on IAS gear for WD Acid Rain. Yes, there does appear to be some small benefit but it comes in the form of very small effective forward movement speed due to slightly shorter cast delay. It's not like other classes where they also get consistent damage benefits as well. For me, this puts IAS way down the totem pole from XP gear, movement speed, INT, crit, crit damage in terms of benefit per gold spent. Basically if you have gold coming out of your ears, go ahead and get more IAS -- otherwise -- there are probably some better stats you could chase.

    Honestly, if you really want the increased weapon speed benefit, a 1h/oh setup would be the most economical way to get increased weapon speed, not IAS. This will create the type of noticeable weapon speed increase that will allow you to move forward slightly faster assuming the exact same number of casts. That said, if you end up casting more times because of the smaller damage range of this setup, it may end up being a wash and could cause mana issues as well . . . but I think given what I'm seeing the conversation should really be more about the pros and cons of 1h/oh versus 2h rather than IAS.

    I'll edit this post with the video once it's done rendering. It shows the effects of weapon speed and IAS on forward movement at Skorn, Skorn +9% attack speed (belt only), Skorn + 18% attack speed (belt and wrists) and then a 1 hander, 1 hander + 9%, and finally 1 hander +18%.

    Thanks for being persistent and making me do the in-game testing to verify and clarify. :)

    EDIT: Vid below . . .

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yiz2-N95HzQ
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