High heroscore wd, are they playable?

  • #1
    I'm referring to diabloprogress ranks:

    http://www.diablopro...ss.witch_doctor

    heroscore is mainly dps and ehp, resource regeneration is less important factor:

    http://www.diablopro...roscore_Ranking

    Now when you scroll through these chars, they have obviously sick and expensive gear, but many of them use dps items like wizards, so, mempo, tal chest, offhand without mana regen (just good dps stats), inna pants.
    These chars sometimes are glass cannons, not not always, main thing is they ignore mana regeneration (no full zuni set, no spell cost reduction items). Fact that they often don't use soj to not "lose" dps is another thing.

    Now, what I have been wondering, are these chars playable? By playable I meam can they compete wd focused on mana regen, but with obviously much less dps.
    If you stack so much ias, have base regen, you pretty much burst all your mana in few seconds, and then end up using primary skill (or even worse primary skill to generate mana). Vq sucks if base mana regen is low, so you are pretty much forced to use low dps primaries a lot.
    What are your thoughts regarding going full dps gear, instead of resource management oriented spec. Maybe high dps makes up for lack of mana regen?

    Or most of top heroscore ppl just stack stats for sake of competition and just run low mp where it doesn't matter, since you get enough mana from kills/globes anyway, or you can just steamroll with ghostbomb like it was acid rain, same speed.
  • #2
    I can't speak to the other classes, but Wizards using full dps gear are most likely using an archon build and thus don't care a lick about mana. My build uses 4 "activate once" abilities and I spend the entire run in archon mode.

    It kind of depends on what you mean as playable tho too... if you are leveling, you are probably doing it at MP0-2 which doesn't require anything special for EPH. If you are key farming or uber fighting, you probably aren't using that gear exclusively. I have a different set of gear that I use for CM WW that is based way more on EPH than DPS.
  • #3
    I'm not near any of top WDs dps (205k unbuffed) but when i go "all in" without checking if the elite pack has reflect damage or not i usualy die in 1-3 sec and that's even at Mp0.
    Ofc I try avoid deaths by using spirit walk before i do my first cast but sometimes spirit walk isn't ready.

    Mp0-3 still works with high dps gear but, doing higher MP levels gives me headache and i usually switch gear around and going for LoH/LS and Mana Regen with much less dps.
  • #4
    Quote from JKlimek

    I can't speak to the other classes, but Wizards using full dps gear are most likely using an archon build and thus don't care a lick about mana. My build uses 4 "activate once" abilities and I spend the entire run in archon mode.

    It kind of depends on what you mean as playable tho too... if you are leveling, you are probably doing it at MP0-2 which doesn't require anything special for EPH. If you are key farming or uber fighting, you probably aren't using that gear exclusively. I have a different set of gear that I use for CM WW that is based way more on EPH than DPS.


    I'm talking about wd.
    Top heroscore wizards are perfectly fine as cm too.. AP per crit anyone? They have infinite resource with just few extra mods on items, and they absolutely crush mp10, mp10 ubers solo ect, something wd can only dream about.
    Same for barbs, if you look at top heroscore barbs, they use ALL IAS gear, even freakin legacy zuni boots for 6% ias, inna pants are very common too, while giving 0 armor, 0 resist and lousy 90ish vit. And they absolutely rock, having infinite unlimited fury from crits.
    Wd is actually only class with such problem where you really limit your char by not having mana regeneration on items.

    As for reflect damage, it is possible to solve. You can get enough resist and armor, cobined with 100% armor horrify buff, to not lose hp vs reflect (and your dps doesn't matter at this point.
    I'd rather worry about running OOM in 3s and spamming spiders that deal 0 damage compared to out heavy hitter skills, if you do it on let's say mp8 team run.
  • #5

    I don’t think that those chars are playable on high MP not only they have high ias items they don’t even have life steal. I have 195k DPS unbuffed. When I solo MP10 I use depth diggers instead of inna’s and play with 186-187k dps. It has always been obvious that you had to avoid getting ias items so I have built my char accordingly. Using 1.2speed weapon etc.. While I can survive any pack on MP10 (health link+reflect+electrified for example) I deal insane dmg. You can check my profile for build, I only do some minor changes on passives with different setups.


    And lastly I can easily say that I farm MP9 effectively with my current items and build but of course it is a whole different discussion.
  • #6
    How do you deal with reflect damage? I don't see horrify armor skill, or loh/loh skills?
  • #7
    He's a better one to answer but my thought would be 14% reduction of elite damage (bracers and chest) might be helping a good bit. 926 resists doesn't hurt as a baseline to work from. Life Link dogs also.

    http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/hasansabbah-2914/Hasansabbat/1582160

    is the diabloprogress link which has some of the other totals easier to see.
  • #8
    On low MP / efficient general loot farming, yes, playable.

    On high MPs, no, not unless some pieces are swapped out to accommodate the change in monster difficulty. For example, my wizard also has a high DPS + life steal Echoing Fury and also a couple of AP on crit pieces for high MP key/uber runs.

    I would assume these WDs have some sort of life steal and mana replenishing items in their inventory to go to when running high MP levels. (strange... I have high hero score monks, DHs, wizards, and barbs on my friends list, but no WDs)
    Blizzard Entertainment - Diablo III Community MVP
  • #9
    If you look at heroscore, whole top 20 in eu is dh and wizard only. I think it is because triumvirate and quivers, they boost unbuffed dps more than other classes can reach.
    Even wizard vs wd only, 20th wizard in top 20, has about same heroscore as top1 wd.. and both use ias gear.

    Quote from Emberos

    He's a better one to answer but my thought would be 14% reduction of elite damage (bracers and chest) might be helping a good bit. 926 resists doesn't hurt as a baseline to work from. Life Link dogs also.

    http://www.diablopro...nsabbat/1582160

    is the diabloprogress link which has some of the other totals easier to see.


    I did notice this, but I think it is nowhere near enough. He probably takes it slowly, counting on spirit vessel, spirit walk. Just at mp10, when fights are long, it is real pain.
  • #10
    Quote from aerialus

    If you look at heroscore, whole top 20 in eu is dh and wizard only. I think it is because triumvirate and quivers, they boost unbuffed dps more than other classes can reach.
    Even wizard vs wd only, 20th wizard in top 20, has about same heroscore as top1 wd.. and both use ias gear.

    Quote from Emberos

    He's a better one to answer but my thought would be 14% reduction of elite damage (bracers and chest) might be helping a good bit. 926 resists doesn't hurt as a baseline to work from. Life Link dogs also.

    http://www.diablopro...nsabbat/1582160

    is the diabloprogress link which has some of the other totals easier to see.


    I did notice this, but I think it is nowhere near enough. He probably takes it slowly, counting on spirit vessel, spirit walk. Just at mp10, when fights are long, it is real pain.

    It is just as Emberos said I got 14% reduce from items+10% from dogs which makes total 24% and it is an insane protection value.
    Aerialus, I have dozens of videos with reflect damage mobs in MP10, problem is I am just too busy working and a bit lazy so i don't edit them. I just spam bears and kill reflect packs, Horde/life link reflects don't matter. Of course we are talking about MP10 here, on lower MP's (7-8) I don't even feel the dmg from reflect packs.
  • #11
    That is weird, When i attack reflect mobs with 4k armor, 900 physical resistance, and 20% dr from bad medicine, I pretty much instakill myself with 3.00% life steal.
    Increasing armor to 8k allows me to barely lose health vs reflect. But with halved armor, it is matter of 2-3 hit bear crits to die.

    Also note that as far as I know, reflect doesn't scale with MP. MP10 vs mp0 reflects are exact same, except they have much less life. You don't get increased % of reflected damage by increasing monster power.
  • #12

    First of all I think that bad medicine is a waste of a passive, I would rather get JF for constant % 15. Same goes for horrify, I didn’t calculate how much extra reduction you gain with it but I don’t think that it’s anywhere near % 10 you get from doggies and they are constant reduction as well. Also I don’t like when mobs run around, makes it impossible to aoe with bears.


    Along with proper skill usage fighting vs reflect as a WD requires player skill as well. Just as you dodge arcane sentries, molten, mortar you gotta play smart vs reflect packs. You get SH up & get health globes so you benefit from extra resist & extra DPS so you can nuke hordes without the fear of loosing HP (I get around 150-200 extra resist and have around 500k DPS). If there are normal mobs around you AOE them as well to get additional life steal.


    My WD is in a state where it’s DPS/EHP is in a perfect equilibrium so I can use offensive passives and clear high MP fast. For example if I use inna pants instead of depth diggers, I may kill my self with my current talents so I have to remove GI with JF and it slows me down alot.


    Anyways, I am going to upload my vids vs MP10 reflect this weekend so they may be a better explanation.
  • #13
    These highscore WDs are useless. Honestly they are much much worse than the acidcloud wds xp/item wise and they are absolutely 100% unplayable on higher mps..
    I wonder what these people do besides buying items, they cant really farm. Maybe in a group.
  • #14
    Quote from Hasansabbat

    get health globes so you benefit from extra resist & extra DPS so you can nuke hordes without the fear of loosing HP (I get around 150-200 extra resist and have around 500k DPS).


    At high intel values, this is one of the very nice perks of GF that probably doesn't get talked about enough. Mostly because it doesn't matter much in low MP farming but it's something I've been watching as I geared up and it is indeed impressive what a 5-stack of GF will do to my resistances.
  • #15
    Quote from Hasansabbat


    First of all I think that bad medicine is a waste of a passive, I would rather get JF for constant % 15. Same goes for horrify, I didn’t calculate how much extra reduction you gain with it but I don’t think that it’s anywhere near % 10 you get from doggies and they are constant reduction as well. Also I don’t like when mobs run around, makes it impossible to aoe with bears.

    Along with proper skill usage fighting vs reflect as a WD requires player skill as well. Just as you dodge arcane sentries, molten, mortar you gotta play smart vs reflect packs. You get SH up & get health globes so you benefit from extra resist & extra DPS so you can nuke hordes without the fear of loosing HP (I get around 150-200 extra resist and have around 500k DPS). If there are normal mobs around you AOE them as well to get additional life steal.

    My WD is in a state where it’s DPS/EHP is in a perfect equilibrium so I can use offensive passives and clear high MP fast. For example if I use inna pants instead of depth diggers, I may kill my self with my current talents so I have to remove GI with JF and it slows me down alot.

    Anyways, I am going to upload my vids vs MP10 reflect this weekend so they may be a better explanation.


    100% armor bonus actually is huge buff, it is more powerful.
    If you do calcs, going up from 4000 armor to 8000 gives you more mitigation than 35% DR..
    This is why I was so surprised, because to match horrify you pretty much need 3 dr sources (bad medicine + Jungle fortitude + health link, or items with elite reduction).
    Horrify armor bonus is single most powerful mitigation buff, wd has.
  • #16
    It has been said here already, they are absolute machines in lower MPs, but to go higher they need to switch some gear around. It is also a known fact that dudes will log out with whatever gear that gives them the stats they want to be on a leaderboard. Check out the Attack Speed list. Everybody on the top of that list uses bullshit gear. Some of them use white weapons with 20% ias, blue armor adn the like.
  • #17
    @Emberos, yeah if you are able to nuke down packs fast enough in high mp GF is a superb "defensive" passive. I used to get JF for high mp before, now I take GF :)

    @Aerialus, You are right % 100 armor bonus is better for 8 seconds.
    I'm at work & can't log in game to check and please correct me if my calculations are wrong. Roughly, 3800 armor is around 56-57 DR, 7600 armor is 71-72 DR which makes around 14-16 extra reduction not %35DR. Of course 4-6 extra DR makes a huge difference but I would rather get constant %10 from dogs and when you have high defenses dogs survive heavy attacks and tank mobs.
    Again I say key to survive vs reflect dmg or any other dmg is to have reduced dmg from elites since no other bonus on single item gives that much defense. Btw not sure but reduced dmg from melee also may help you vs reflect.
  • #18
    Quote from Hasansabbat
    @Aerialus, You are right % 100 armor bonus is better for 8 seconds.
    I'm at work & can't log in game to check and please correct me if my calculations are wrong. Roughly, 3800 armor is around 56-57 DR, 7600 armor is 71-72 DR which makes around 14-16 extra reduction not %35DR. Of course 4-6 extra DR makes a huge difference but I would rather get constant %10 from dogs and when you have high defenses dogs survive heavy attacks and tank mobs.


    Difference between 56% reduction from armor vs 72% is much greater.
    At 56% dr you take 44% incoming damage.
    At 72% you take just 28%.
    That is relative difference of 57%, you take 57% more damage at 56% mitigation (44% taken) vs 72% mitigation (28% damage taken).
    Thing with this is, % value has diminishing returns, but it is countered by fact that greater % is, less damage you take.
    Like with 99% dr, if you increase that by 0,5%, it is just 0,5% more DR you would say, but 99,5% DR vs 99,0% means you take 50% less damage, (1% taken vs 0,5%).
    People often confuse this. Resist/armor in d3 have linear returns.

    To uderstand how damage mitigation is calculated. There is part with resist, part with armor, and part with damage reduction from skills.
    Each of these groups are multiplicative. So if you only have health link dogs, it will always cut incoming damage by 10%. If your armor*resist total mitigation was 90%, so you take 10% damage, and add health link dogs to your build, it wont make you take 0 damage. You will take 10% incoming damage, but extra reduced by 10% of that value thanks to health link dogs. Which means you will take 9% of total damage dealth to you instead of 10.
  • #19
    Quote from aerialus

    Quote from Hasansabbat
    @Aerialus, You are right % 100 armor bonus is better for 8 seconds.
    I'm at work & can't log in game to check and please correct me if my calculations are wrong. Roughly, 3800 armor is around 56-57 DR, 7600 armor is 71-72 DR which makes around 14-16 extra reduction not %35DR. Of course 4-6 extra DR makes a huge difference but I would rather get constant %10 from dogs and when you have high defenses dogs survive heavy attacks and tank mobs.


    Difference between 56% reduction from armor vs 72% is much greater.
    At 56% dr you take 44% incoming damage.
    At 72% you take just 28%.
    That is relative difference of 57%, you take 57% more damage at 56% mitigation (44% taken) vs 72% mitigation (28% damage taken).
    Thing with this is, % value has diminishing returns, but it is countered by fact that greater % is, less damage you take.
    Like with 99% dr, if you increase that by 0,5%, it is just 0,5% more DR you would say, but 99,5% DR vs 99,0% means you take 50% less damage, (1% taken vs 0,5%).
    People often confuse this. Resist/armor in d3 have linear returns.

    To uderstand how damage mitigation is calculated. There is part with resist, part with armor, and part with damage reduction from skills.
    Each of these groups are multiplicative. So if you only have health link dogs, it will always cut incoming damage by 10%. If your armor*resist total mitigation was 90%, so you take 10% damage, and add health link dogs to your build, it wont make you take 0 damage. You will take 10% incoming damage, but extra reduced by 10% of that value thanks to health link dogs. Which means you will take 9% of total damage dealth to you instead of 10.


    Your calculations are mostly correct theoretically, But in practice they are totally different. Well we are way off the topic :) If someone opens a new thread about reflect vs WD we continue our conversation there. Or this weekend I upload my vids with reflect and we continue under that one.
    Cheers,
  • #20
    Looking forward to the MP10 vids, Hans. On topic, with Vision Quest passive, I can pretty much spam bears, with just 1 Ghost Bomb every 5 and not go oom. Other 2 passives Blood Ritual and Gruesome Feast. This is with a slower 2-hand Skorn -- also with 6% life steal on that Skorn, reflect don't bother me much -- even if I 5 stack Siphon and GF and pop BBV (166k unbuffed dps in this setup). Anyway, I could see somewhat of a high hero score build working. I'll post a vid showing what I'm talking about as I'm breaking up the monotony of the grind through the 90s. About half-way through 96 and mind is going numb from low MP farming.
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