Any WD's still running Splinters?

  • #81
    Quote from Findulidas

    Quote from Kblavkalash

    Quote from Findulidas

    Quote from Kblavkalash

    Splinters is more of a poor man's choice. I you have gear with enough resists/armor/life and mana then bears/bats are many times better than splinter in overall killing speed.


    Thats a pretty dumb argument. With enough mana resi/armor/health then anything works, the problem always is getting better gear. While bears kill stuff faster you really die much easier using that build, which is why I prefer splinters. Its really up to how you like to play. If you are facerolling act4 inferno dps then sure bears might be the best at all times, I seriously doubt the majority of players running bears does that though.


    How is that dumb arugment? With splinter i imagine you need to kite a lot, right? You ain't gonna kill monsters in few darts, that means you kite and lose time. Now with bears, you cast spirit walk run into big pack, cast soul harvest and start spamming bears. Everything is dead after 3 seconds, so nothing can kill you, right? :) Ofc with elites it's not that fast but still much faster than using darts.

    Imo VQ builds which heavily uses bears or bats are much faster in killing speed compared to low mana cost spell builds.


    The fight clearly isnt over by a bear caster just getting in, thats completely unrealistic. You can just as well die as soon as you get in melee range and dying in 3 seconds is easy in act3-4. Somehow you seem to be missing the very important deaths in your calculation, this is ever more important if you are using a skill like bears which basically is in melee which very obviously increases the risk of dying. Every time you die you lose both time and money which means unless you are running overgeared then bears doesnt seem to be better than splinters. If you are then why arent you going on the act over? Because you die before you can kill stuff using bears since you are in melee range, you dont when using splinters. Thats how I see it.


    I use spirit walk with 3 sec uptime and i run into enemies, few bears and everything is dead. If everything is dead nothing can kill me.

    Now it's different on elites cause i need to kite more but still bears are huge AoE damage all over you which is good even for kiting. Again, it all depends on your gear and dps, if your dps not enough to kill stuff in 1-3 seconds then such build ain't effective.
    You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
  • #82
    @ruppgu

    Bats does higher single target damage than splinters, and is also AoE. It also has no additional problem affixes, while darts has severe trouble with sheilding, dampening, and invulnerable (regardless of strategy, those packs are more difficult by a large margin - as it is their nature to be difficult for darts.)

    1: grasp and wall are used at the same freequency in either build. so a player wouldn't "cast less"
    2: Hex, confusion, and horrify are all usable while running / when a player should be running, so you dont "cast less". That means that the "cast less" con you listed, doesn't actually apply. Skilled players dont use "no-use" skills just to gain VQ.
    3: Grasp and wall are always on CD for all builds that use them (and enemies that dont need them - a player wouldnt need the mana from VQ anyways). confusion can be used offensively, if it were used. This leaves SW or hex (or horrify), to rotate as "on demand" devensive cooldowns.
    4: Poison dart builds require mana regen, to do even remotely equivilant damage without a mana passive (even at a lowly 2.0 APS). If a person doesn't have the gear to actually hit higher breakpoints (2.6+) that are, the question becomes moot pretty quickly anyways. Granted, this is with PtV, but if you arent using PtV with darts... the comparison is drastically different.
    5: No build prevents a WD from using JF. Not even VQ Bears. JF is a choice that is reflective of a WD's gearing choices, and playstyle. I've used it in my bats build, both in progression, and during farming, before I got gear that was both defensive and offensive.
    6: WD don't die more with bats, only bears. They actually die less with bats, since they have the exact same survivability gear/cooldowns with darts - but more damage, and as AOE - which means less monsters to deal with. There's actually gain returns on LoH and LS with bats, at a quicker rate, due to multiple targets. I'm not sure how you could argue it's not the case - when we're using the same defensive/offensive cooldowns

    You said people should stop stating their word was fact - but what we're talking about is game data, that is quite clear. Things like playstyle, or what's fun; those are opinions. I found 3.9APS darts was fun prenerf - and was an advocate for it then. Prenerf it was incredibly strong, because with that amount of APS, other builds wernt functional with VQ exclusively. I didnt like being locked into 2 passives to make one build functional, when using the strongest DPS stat (IAS). Now, when bats / darts BOTH only require one passive to be fuctional / viable, I find darts less fun, and more boring that flaming bats. That is me using words to form opinion, not fact. The facts are independent of my opinion, though my opinion is the same: unless you are using bad medicine, there is no scenario in average gear levels that darts is supperior to bats, and many in which darts is not even equal to bats.

    None of this was meant to be an attack (in fact, i went back and changed every instance of the word "you" to "a player" just to make sure it didnt come off as aggresive), but it is meant to be eye opening. The problem is, the people promoting VQ bats, still think it's a good idea to use long CD's, usually because they came over from VQBears when the patch broke it. That means that people think it's the only way to VQBat. It isn't, and I'd be less succesful if I used the VQ bat build on the front page that uses FetArm over confusion.

    With recently upgraded gear, im getting off 12 bats before oom, and 20 (almost 21) if I honored guest at oom (used to be 10/17) Thats without VQ. No solo elite pack takes that many bats to kill unless it's extra health. I can actually use pierce the veil, with VQ, and not run oom when VQ's up durring normal combat (say.... an entire fight vs Azmodan or siegebreaker). My personal experience shows that I don't even HAVE to maintain VQ to use bats on a normal basis, and with farming, the 3-6 seconds TP/WP hopping means even less of that.

    If i found a ceramonial knive with good damage, and 10+MR, i wouldnt even use VQ anymore. It wouldn't be necesary, as i'm already (almost) regenerating my mana at the speed a wizard would generate arcane power as a paper doll.


    Boy... that was a lot longer than what i intended...
  • #83
    Darts until the day I stop playing my WD. The only changes are I do still go VQ/Bears for Ghom Inferno and for Rakanoth.

    Otherwise I have had no issues with darts and kiting various problematic packs like invurnerable and shielding. It just takes a little extra time. But currently I rock a little over 75k damage (rather low still imo) so when I put enough distance in between me and a problematic pack I can do some decent damage.
  • #84
    Yes, but honestly, doesn't using Bats without VQ the way you're talking about it require fairly specific gear in the first place?

    Furthermore, you're saying you can kill any non-shielding, non-extra-health elite pack in just 12 bats casts? What is your gear like and what are you farming? To me it sounds like you outgear it just like someone saying they can kill an elite with 4-5 darts.

    For the sake of being reasonable (unless we're specifically discussing farming builds) it would stand that we should be evaluating builds against appropriate content.
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  • #85
    Quote from Kit

    @ruppgu

    Bats does higher single target damage than splinters, and is also AoE. It also has no additional problem affixes, while darts has severe trouble with sheilding, dampening, and invulnerable (regardless of strategy, those packs are more difficult by a large margin - as it is their nature to be difficult for darts.)

    1: grasp and wall are used at the same freequency in either build. so a player wouldn't "cast less"
    2: Hex, confusion, and horrify are all usable while running / when a player should be running, so you dont "cast less". That means that the "cast less" con you listed, doesn't actually apply. Skilled players dont use "no-use" skills just to gain VQ.
    3: Grasp and wall are always on CD for all builds that use them (and enemies that dont need them - a player wouldnt need the mana from VQ anyways). confusion can be used offensively, if it were used. This leaves SW or hex (or horrify), to rotate as "on demand" devensive cooldowns.
    4: Poison dart builds require mana regen, to do even remotely equivilant damage without a mana passive (even at a lowly 2.0 APS). If a person doesn't have the gear to actually hit higher breakpoints (2.6+) that are, the question becomes moot pretty quickly anyways. Granted, this is with PtV, but if you arent using PtV with darts... the comparison is drastically different.
    5: No build prevents a WD from using JF. Not even VQ Bears. JF is a choice that is reflective of a WD's gearing choices, and playstyle. I've used it in my bats build, both in progression, and during farming, before I got gear that was both defensive and offensive.
    6: WD don't die more with bats, only bears. They actually die less with bats, since they have the exact same survivability gear/cooldowns with darts - but more damage, and as AOE - which means less monsters to deal with. There's actually gain returns on LoH and LS with bats, at a quicker rate, due to multiple targets. I'm not sure how you could argue it's not the case - when we're using the same defensive/offensive cooldowns

    You said people should stop stating their word was fact - but what we're talking about is game data, that is quite clear. Things like playstyle, or what's fun; those are opinions. I found 3.9APS darts was fun prenerf - and was an advocate for it then. Prenerf it was incredibly strong, because with that amount of APS, other builds wernt functional with VQ exclusively. I didnt like being locked into 2 passives to make one build functional, when using the strongest DPS stat (IAS). Now, when bats / darts BOTH only require one passive to be fuctional / viable, I find darts less fun, and more boring that flaming bats. That is me using words to form opinion, not fact. The facts are independent of my opinion, though my opinion is the same: unless you are using bad medicine, there is no scenario in average gear levels that darts is supperior to bats, and many in which darts is not even equal to bats.

    None of this was meant to be an attack (in fact, i went back and changed every instance of the word "you" to "a player" just to make sure it didnt come off as aggresive), but it is meant to be eye opening. The problem is, the people promoting VQ bats, still think it's a good idea to use long CD's, usually because they came over from VQBears when the patch broke it. That means that people think it's the only way to VQBat. It isn't, and I'd be less succesful if I used the VQ bat build on the front page that uses FetArm over confusion.

    With recently upgraded gear, im getting off 12 bats before oom, and 20 (almost 21) if I honored guest at oom (used to be 10/17) Thats without VQ. No solo elite pack takes that many bats to kill unless it's extra health. I can actually use pierce the veil, with VQ, and not run oom when VQ's up durring normal combat (say.... an entire fight vs Azmodan or siegebreaker). My personal experience shows that I don't even HAVE to maintain VQ to use bats on a normal basis, and with farming, the 3-6 seconds TP/WP hopping means even less of that.

    If i found a ceramonial knive with good damage, and 10+MR, i wouldnt even use VQ anymore. It wouldn't be necesary, as i'm already (almost) regenerating my mana at the speed a wizard would generate arcane power as a paper doll.


    Boy... that was a lot longer than what i intended...


    For me, the following is harder with a VQ build:

    * Vortex
    * Teleport
    * Jailer
    * Reflects Damage (doing AoE damage is just brutal)

    The following is easier with VQ:

    * Invulnerable
    * Illusionist

    Why? Because as I stated above, kiting is harder with a VQ build due to abilities being on cooldown (hex, ZW, SW). I use my abilities when I need them... you can state all you want that dart builds have ZW on cooldown all the time but you are incorrect. Only a poor player would cast ZW on cooldown. You use it when you need help to kite and it's best to only use it when you kite them to a chokepoint. The only skill I use on cooldown with darts is Grasp and even then I sometimes won't use it on cooldown if I know I'll kill the pack before they reach me or I have them in a Zombie Wall and I want to save it to help kiting when they break free.

    I can see VQ being better once you overgear the content and you don't need to kite as much. If you can explode the content quick enough, obviously bats are better. This is why I'm anxious to try out bats again with my new dps... I may have hit that point (but I'm guessing the lack of mana regen will be killer).

    #4 Darts need mana regen? Sorry buddy, but they don't. I have 0 mana regen and my darts build is fine. I was fine before when I stacked IAS and it's even better now that I lost most of my IAS gear in favor of more crit gear. I have 0 mana regen and the build works PERFECTLY. If you're having mana problems with a dart build then you have too much IAS and you probably aren't casting spirit walk enough. Before the IAS nerf, this may have been true... it's not true any longer though.

    Darts is the better defensive build... that's a fact. Bats do more damage (if you can keep up with the mana) that's a fact. Choose which style you like better.
  • #86

    For me, the following is harder with a VQ build:

    * Vortex
    * Teleport
    * Jailer
    * Reflects Damage (doing AoE damage is just brutal)

    The following is easier with VQ:

    * Invulnerable
    * Illusionist

    Why? Because as I stated above, kiting is harder with a VQ build due to abilities being on cooldown (hex, ZW, SW). I use my abilities when I need them... you can state all you want that dart builds have ZW on cooldown all the time but you are incorrect. Only a poor player would cast ZW on cooldown. You use it when you need help to kite and it's best to only use it when you kite them to a chokepoint. The only skill I use on cooldown with darts is Grasp and even then I sometimes won't use it on cooldown if I know I'll kill the pack before they reach me or I have them in a Zombie Wall and I want to save it to help kiting when they break free.

    I can see VQ being better once you overgear the content and you don't need to kite as much. If you can explode the content quick enough, obviously bats are better. This is why I'm anxious to try out bats again with my new dps... I may have hit that point (but I'm guessing the lack of mana regen will be killer).

    #4 Darts need mana regen? Sorry buddy, but they don't. I have 0 mana regen and my darts build is fine. I was fine before when I stacked IAS and it's even better now that I lost most of my IAS gear in favor of more crit gear. I have 0 mana regen and the build works PERFECTLY. If you're having mana problems with a dart build then you have too much IAS and you probably aren't casting spirit walk enough. Before the IAS nerf, this may have been true... it's not true any longer though.

    Darts is the better defensive build... that's a fact. Bats do more damage (if you can keep up with the mana) that's a fact. Choose which style you like better.


    This is basically correct.

    Here's the thing... it all depends on gear. If your gear isn't very good with a dart build, you end up using your cooldowns almost as much as VQ build. I'm talking about people with like 20-30k damage. You'll be close to going oom with a high attack speed and no mana return abilties/mana regen at that point (with PtV and JF also). Because your damage is so low you have to spam cooldowns to stay alive. By the way, just to reiterate, when it comes to AoE damage in a dart build grasp and ZW are enough really... you don't need another AoE ability.

    Anyways, while it's true that if your gear is weak you spam cooldowns with darts. If your gear is better you can use the cds more conservatively, which increases your survivability by a lot.

    Darts is definitely the more versatile build because you can save your cooldowns and can get alternate stats since you need less mana regen. It's actually a lot more difficult to kite with bats once you have good gear because darts allows you to use your cooldowns efficiently.

    But if you've already got a handle on something you're trying to farm, it's best to go with bats. You need ~50 regen to use it at 1.5 speed by the way with PtV. That's 14 on weapon, 11 on helm, 11 on off hand I believe is the max. Plus you can get the -8 cost on helm. Also... you can use a LoH alternate *amulet* for reflect. But yeah, those packs will increase your chance of dying with bats.

    Bottom line... darts is a more conservative build that's better for progressing. But bats is a higher damage build that will help you farm things better once you've got it under control.

    You can't really say for sure that one is better than the other I don't think. But most people are going to end up going with bats since it helps them kill things faster. You'll die more often, but most people probably don't care as much about that if they're killing things faster. And if you're able to gear really good gear tailored for bats, it's even less likely you'll die.

    Personally, even though I don't like VQ, I prefer bats because even though I can die more often, I kill things faster overall.
  • #87
    I can agree with the above post ^^

    I plan on moving to bats if my gear ever allows it. It is without a doubt the faster farming build if you can blow up monsters quick enough.
  • #88
    I still use splinters.

    The first reason is that I don't like VQ-based builds. Bears and bats are cool, but since all your stuff is on CD all the time, you have no "plan B" for situations when something survives the initial burst. Also, I really hate to not be able to cast. It's so fucking annoying, no words can express how much I hate to just stand and wait for mana. Regen gear makes it a bit better, it doesn't solve the problem completely.

    And another reason why I use splinters is a group. Lately I mostly play my WD with a barb tank and a DH, whose heavy artillery compensates the lack of AOE of the splinters build, which I think is its only flaw. At the same time I'm able to provide a lot of CC, because I can actually use my CDs when I need them. This, coupled with a very nice single-target DPS, works really well.
  • #89
    Quote from shaggy

    Yes, but honestly, doesn't using Bats without VQ the way you're talking about it require fairly specific gear in the first place?

    Furthermore, you're saying you can kill any non-shielding, non-extra-health elite pack in just 12 bats casts? What is your gear like and what are you farming? To me it sounds like you outgear it just like someone saying they can kill an elite with 4-5 darts.

    For the sake of being reasonable (unless we're specifically discussing farming builds) it would stand that we should be evaluating builds against appropriate content.


    My post was about VQ bats - not _bats. I stated im almost at the gear level where vq was irrelevant after stating points about vqbats being good. I was elaborating to show what is possible, the other data stands regardless of gear. You pretty much took 80% of my post and discredited it, because later on, I stated experience instead of fact, when I clearly had moved to a non-fact part of my post. You sir, deserve a job in politics.

    for under 300k, you can be killing act 1 elites in 8 bats (i kill warriors rest skelleton in 2-4 depending on crits). Everyone overgears act one, unless they dont use the AH (which is TOTALLY cool with me, play the way you want)

    Quote from Ruppgu

    For me, the following is harder with a VQ build:

    * Vortex
    * Teleport
    * Jailer
    * Reflects Damage (doing AoE damage is just brutal)

    The following is easier with VQ:

    * Invulnerable
    * Illusionist

    Why? Because as I stated above, kiting is harder with a VQ build due to abilities being on cooldown (hex, ZW, SW). I use my abilities when I need them... you can state all you want that dart builds have ZW on cooldown all the time but you are incorrect. Only a poor player would cast ZW on cooldown. You use it when you need help to kite and it's best to only use it when you kite them to a chokepoint. The only skill I use on cooldown with darts is Grasp and even then I sometimes won't use it on cooldown if I know I'll kill the pack before they reach me or I have them in a Zombie Wall and I want to save it to help kiting when they break free.

    I can see VQ being better once you overgear the content and you don't need to kite as much. If you can explode the content quick enough, obviously bats are better. This is why I'm anxious to try out bats again with my new dps... I may have hit that point (but I'm guessing the lack of mana regen will be killer).

    #4 Darts need mana regen? Sorry buddy, but they don't. I have 0 mana regen and my darts build is fine. I was fine before when I stacked IAS and it's even better now that I lost most of my IAS gear in favor of more crit gear. I have 0 mana regen and the build works PERFECTLY. If you're having mana problems with a dart build then you have too much IAS and you probably aren't casting spirit walk enough. Before the IAS nerf, this may have been true... it's not true any longer though.

    Darts is the better defensive build... that's a fact. Bats do more damage (if you can keep up with the mana) that's a fact. Choose which style you like better.


    Reflect damage shouldnt be an issue - you get higher returns on bats for LoH, and if there is even one non elite in the group (more than half the time) you're getting more return from life steal as well.

    vortex / jailer should be the same difficulty with either build (I dont die to jailer, and only die to vortex if pulled into ridiculous AOE mobs/affixes repeatadly. this is true for either build, as darts doesn't overcome them easier, period.

    Hex, confuse, SW, horrify all overcome teleporter QUITE well. these are issues for neither build as well.


    As for abilities being on CD, the CDs go into effect when you would normally use them (or close enough to then, that it's irrelevant) You use the same CDs, and constantly have one up for on demand protection. you lose no survivability, or kiting ability.

    @poor player using ZW on CD. When im fighting packs that need it, it's on CD. a poor player would be the one not using it. Unless you didnt read the part about packs not needing ZW... not needing to have it cast, even as a VQ user? When else would it matter. If I see an elite pack, ZW is one of the first things that goes down. You dont think honestly im just tossing it out in the middle of nowhere, just because it's off CD do you? (Wait, dont answer that - you already said the same about people using SH)

    @ darts/mana. again, darts is only a viable (Read: competitive) offensive option, when you get to the point that darts require mana. I said that in my post. your reply read: well anything less than that doesnt require mana. So we ACTUALLY agree (no need for a sorry buddy. I didn't attack you, no need to get defensive). You even went on to talk about how before the IAS nerf you'd need it - well, you can still reach 3.0+APS. easily. there was a post on the front page about maxing out at 5.65, i believe it was, for a WD. If you're only at 1.9, you're not really at the point where it's competitive with any of the other options, so if it needs mana, shouldnt be an issue at that point. Both you and I agree on this, on every point of this. I guess you just want to comment on semantics? I dunno.

    And again, darts gains no defensive advantage over bats, regardless of 4cd's being on for VQ. you will NEVER (ever) need to use 3 CDs at once, and since all the CDs are short, you'll always be chaining them anyways.


    As for darts being better when you overgear content - this is true. but its the same when you undergear it too. When act one/two are so efficient that people who can easily farm act three, are choosing to farm act one, it would be irrelevant on either point. Everyone overgears act one, and if they dont - they can with ~300k gold.


    If you're at the point in any form of content, where chaining CD's isn't good enough, you probably need to look at gear rather than build. flat out, you can rotate 2 second immunity, with hex, every six seconds. WITH grasp up the whole time, and your choice of horrify / confuse to offset it... and you actually need to use them at the same time? I don't buy it. You conduct yourself, and post in a way that I don't believe you need that. You even mention that you dont use those CD's half the time, because you're saving them. That tells me, you should already be playing bats - you're already playing at a way that ALWAYS having 1 defensive CD up wouldn't be a problem for you. You really would lose zero defensive benefit from VQ, if you would just look at it the same way you're looking at darts: chaining CDs.

    vs elites:
    Sw 2s
    hex, 2s
    Wall 5s
    confuse 2.5s
    SW back up, use it again (mana goes back to ~full)
    Hex back up, cast it again.

    16 seconds of cc., and thats not including grasp, and recurring hex poly's.

    All while doing more damage than darts (where you already state your 4-5 shotting elites, so... 3-4 shotting the whole pack with bats, instead of 5shotting each of them)

    Just all around, it's more defensive than darts, because it's the *exact* same amount of defensive. You dont HAVE to have VQ up, because with even minimum mana regen gear, you'll already be near full from any use of SW:HG anyways. This isnbt even getting into how much better it is vs bosses (because honestly, splinters is the same build, just less damage, and there's no reason to tote that.)

    I don't want to shove this down your throat (any more than it already seems I have), so if you still disagree, I will kindly drop it.
  • #90
    Wow lots of good info in here.

    In my experience darts is just too good to use anything else as a primary attack. I infact use it as my sole dmg ability as I have built my WD for max MF to farm act 1 since the improved 61+ item level drop rates where buffed. Act 2 is ok with a meat shield like a barb or monk. right now my base MF is 280-ish (With templar) and my build is;

    splinter darts
    spirit walk (with the 3 second improved duration)
    Grasp of the dead (80% movment speed reduc)
    Soul harvest (extended duration)
    Hex (with the heal)-a side note, with only 300 LOH I have literally been saved by hex and its heal a million times over
    Fetish army (extra fetish's) - as its been pointed out this is used to zerg

    I carry around 28K dps, (38-ish with a 5 stack of SH)
    With a 5 stack of valour im around the 350-ish MF range and I steam roll all elites save the yellow guys with fast, shield, minions (they are a bitch)

    I run act 1 in no time and get about 1 1/5-2 bank tabs worth of rares, with a Legendary or set item drop about one in every 3 runs.

    I am saving up for the inferno herding staff, no idea how hard elites are in there but if its do-able I will add that to my act1 mf pathing.

    But to sum it all up, there just isnt a comparable ability to splinter darts. when you consider attck speed, range, predictability (wich is an issue for most of the WD abilities).

    happy witch doctoring :)

    EDIT: after reading the poster above me I am going to try and run bats to see if I like it, he makes some valid arguments, although my gear might not be capable of it.

    Edit 2: dont have the proper gear or mana regen to make bats viable. back to SD

    Edit3: anyone with 200 mf PLus looking for speed runs of act 1 or 2 PM me and lets pwn some elites :)
  • #91
    I'll give you this much... most people have used Jaunt instead of HG in the past, so they don't have that added regen. You're probably right that if you use HG you can avoid needing VQ ALL the time which lets you use your cooldowns more efficiently. The problem is that the vast majority of people use SW conservatively in a 5 CD Bats build. They aren't using it for mana regen. Personally I feel like it makes more sense to get Jaunt than to just spam SW for immunity using HG with Bats. Using HG is a lot easier with a dart build imo. Hex only polys 1 elite at a time though, so that's not a great example.

    And btw as a side note... there's no such thing as a non-VQ bats build really at this point. I mean no one uses it. It costs too much mana to use without VQ. Sure you could get like Spined Dart, HG, drop PtV, etc etc but that's not a legitimate option. The only good builds that don't use VQ are going to involve primarys.

    This is pointless though when you get into a lot of theorycrafting.

    The bottom line is that in the actual game you're going to have ZWs that don't block off elites well, you're going to have your Hex shaman run back to you without polying anything, you'll miss mass confuses, etc. This type of stuff is less likely to happen with a darts build because you don't have to spam cds for VQ.

    Let's say you're using SH for example. With a darts build it's going to be way easier to get 5 stacks everytime because you can wait for 5 enemies. You can't do that with VQBats as well.

    You don't even get JF with bats also, while you do with darts, which automatically gives you more survivability. Of course bats gives you more damage still without PtV, but PtV is what makes it meaningful (compared to darts where PtV is guaranteed).


    TLDR: All I'm saying is that I think Dart builds have more survivability than Bats but that Bats (in my opinion) are better overall because the damage is better. The reason people still use Darts is probably because they want to conserve their cooldowns and use them more effectively without needing VQ for mana. Because Bats certainly does more damage.
  • #92
    Quote from Ruppgu

    Quote from maka

    Hex's CD is equal to it's lifetime, so it's 100% uptime. And I use ZW with my Dire Bats WD, so I don't know where you're going with some of your points. I just don't know how you have fun when the skill that you deal damage with 95% of the time is a skill/rune you get at level 6.


    You are incorrect sir. Hex expires before the cooldown by 2 seconds I believe. Also, as I stated in my post, it casts the CC immediately when you cast the spell which was my point.

    Ah, yes, you are correct. My apologies.

    Quote from shaggy

    Are you seriously trying to insinuate that the only skills that can be "fun" to use are ones that you obtain closer to 60?

    Grasp of the Dead is my single favorite spell in the game. I absolutely love it. No class has presented me with anything that I find nearly as "fun" to use. I couldn't care less if I got it at level 1, 10, or 60.

    No, I'm not. Grasp of the dead is great, but you don't spam that, and neither is it your main damage dealer, Poison Dart (Splinters) is. It's more a problem with the game than with the people using it. Dire Bats is level 11, but because Vision Quest is level 40, I never really used them until then (too expensive), but I'm pretty sure that if I had used them since lvl 11, I'd be pretty tired of them. Poison Dart has the added downside of being a pretty underwhelming-looking ability (how badass can you look using a blowgun?).

    This is all 'in my opinion', of course.

    EDIT: Also, regarding Hex having crap AI and always hexing trash mobs instead of elites: the thing about a Dire Bats build is that all trash dies in a couple of seconds, since the bats are so awesomely AoE, so for the vast majority of that elite fight, there'll be no trash around to 'distract' Hex.
  • #93
    Quote from Kit

    Quote from shaggy

    Yes, but honestly, doesn't using Bats without VQ the way you're talking about it require fairly specific gear in the first place?

    Furthermore, you're saying you can kill any non-shielding, non-extra-health elite pack in just 12 bats casts? What is your gear like and what are you farming? To me it sounds like you outgear it just like someone saying they can kill an elite with 4-5 darts.

    For the sake of being reasonable (unless we're specifically discussing farming builds) it would stand that we should be evaluating builds against appropriate content.


    My post was about VQ bats - not _bats. I stated im almost at the gear level where vq was irrelevant after stating points about vqbats being good. I was elaborating to show what is possible, the other data stands regardless of gear. You pretty much took 80% of my post and discredited it, because later on, I stated experience instead of fact, when I clearly had moved to a non-fact part of my post. You sir, deserve a job in politics.

    for under 300k, you can be killing act 1 elites in 8 bats (i kill warriors rest skelleton in 2-4 depending on crits). Everyone overgears act one, unless they dont use the AH (which is TOTALLY cool with me, play the way you want)


    Yes, but I don't think anyone else is talking about what build pwns Act 1 hard. At least I get the feeling that most of the other discussion here when it comes to survivability talk and whatnot IMPLIES that you're not massively outgearing content. I'm not being political, I'm saying that you're not providing context. Just like the Firebombs build the guy suggested... his gear level was important.

    I'm not trying to discredit your post. I'm trying to fill in the RELEVANT information that you either left out or danced around. If you're sitting at 50k+ damage you can probably use Toad of Hugeness to farm Act 1. That doesn't make Toad of Hugeness a good spell, though. That's why it's important to know under what auspices people are using that build.

    Statements that insinuate you can kill elite packs in 12 bats casts are *misleading* to the average Joe who comes here looking for advice because they're going to assume that's in current content and NOT in content that is massively outgeared.

    @maka
    Gotcha. I, personally, don't find darts to be boring, but if we had another alternative I wouldn't be upset about that either. I have no attachment to that spell. Grasp of the Dead, however, you couldn't pry from my cold dead hands! My main complaint about darts is that it's so gimped against shielding and invulnerable minions because of how it works. And I will most certainly concede that it absolutely is NOT formidable.
    p450 :: 92.2k EK :: 2.54m TK
    Planet Express <PlanEx>
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  • #94
    Quote from Slayerviper

    Quote from Moetsukiru

    I have great gear



    I used a similar build leveling my WD and it was fun... till hell. Like all other things unless you have gear locusts and many other spells are useless. I'm sitting at 25K and it does shit in Act 1. I obviously didn't have the radius passives because again that requires gear.


    My gear is pretty good. 860 dps dagger with 200 int and 1.55 attack speed, most of my armor is ilvl 62ish. In my DPS gear I'm at 1700 int, 1000 vit, ~400 resist all, 3k armor, 44 mana per second, 25% crit, 96% crit damage (my build doesn't need/use crit damage all that much), plus all the % dmg from zuni stuff (swarm, darts, and dmg to elites). Also I recently dropped wall of zombies for Hex rune Jinx, and I've really been liking it. I'm putting out some serious DPS on elites now.

    Quote from Kblavkalash

    Moetsukiru, do the CC on items like chance to stun or blind works on elite enemies just as good?


    The duration is definitely shorter, but the proc chance is the same, and doesn't suffer from reduced benefits. Every time the blind procs it blinds an elite mob (champions and rares) for, something like, .5-1 second (it's pretty short, but enough), however I've seen blind procs very close together (within a second or two). The fear is the better proc I would say, especially with a darts build, since it stuns the mob and moves them farther from you. It also procs on some bosses, but not all of them. I don't think Siegebreaker can be blinded/feared, the act bosses can't either, but I'm pretty sure I've blinded ZK and SK.
  • #95
    Quote from lorien1973

    Also, my zuni helm has over 3% chance to fear, and my necklace has over 3% chance to blind, which combined with the 1.99 attack speed makes for a LOT of CC procs from not just darts but also grasp and swarm.


    Does the fear chance proc on DoT hits, or only the initial jump?


    Sadly I'm pretty sure they can only proc off each jump on each mob. So not just the first jump, but every jump, but not on the ticks. I'm not 100% certain of this, but I *believe* each mob hit by locust swarm has ONE chance to be stunned/blinded/feared (the first tick) and then it's just damage. Similarly, each cast of splinters only has ONE chance to stun/blind/fear. The first dart is the one that procs stuff (once again, not 100% certain, but pretty confident) and the other two are just damage. Since I'm at 2.00 attack speed (recently upgraded a ring from 6% to 7% ias) I have 2 chances to proc per second. Each of my procs are at about 3.5% chance, so I'd assume that puts me at about 7% chance, which would be one in 14, and I'm attacking twice per second, so that's about 1 proc every 7 seconds? I'm guessing here.
  • #96
    Quote from Moetsukiru

    Quote from Kblavkalash

    Moetsukiru, do the CC on items like chance to stun or blind works on elite enemies just as good?


    The duration is definitely shorter, but the proc chance is the same, and doesn't suffer from reduced benefits. Every time the blind procs it blinds an elite mob (champions and rares) for, something like, .5-1 second (it's pretty short, but enough), however I've seen blind procs very close together (within a second or two). The fear is the better proc I would say, especially with a darts build, since it stuns the mob and moves them farther from you. It also procs on some bosses, but not all of them. I don't think Siegebreaker can be blinded/feared, the act bosses can't either, but I'm pretty sure I've blinded ZK and SK.


    That's really nice then, gonna try with my bears build. Btw, all of them work on elites, i mean: chance to slow, freeze, knockback, chill, immobilize, fear, blind ?
    You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
  • #97
    Quote from Kblavkalash

    Quote from Moetsukiru

    Quote from Kblavkalash

    Moetsukiru, do the CC on items like chance to stun or blind works on elite enemies just as good?


    The duration is definitely shorter, but the proc chance is the same, and doesn't suffer from reduced benefits. Every time the blind procs it blinds an elite mob (champions and rares) for, something like, .5-1 second (it's pretty short, but enough), however I've seen blind procs very close together (within a second or two). The fear is the better proc I would say, especially with a darts build, since it stuns the mob and moves them farther from you. It also procs on some bosses, but not all of them. I don't think Siegebreaker can be blinded/feared, the act bosses can't either, but I'm pretty sure I've blinded ZK and SK.


    That's really nice then, gonna try with my bears build. Btw, all of them work on elites, i mean: chance to slow, freeze, knockback, chill, immobilize, fear, blind ?


    Yes, to my knowledge they all work on elites. I confirmed recently that SK is blind/stun/fear-able, but the duration is much shorter, just like on elite packs.
  • #98
    Yeah they all work. You don't want knockback though usually, at least not with a pet build (burning dogs + big stinker).

    It's really overpowered actually, you can stunlock bosses and elites. It's likely to get nerfed at some point just like other broken mechanics in the game. So be careful spending a lot of money on it.

    Not sure what the best build would be for stacking CC gear at this point. Pets get murdered still, so no point in getting burning dogs + big stinker I'd say. Maybe Rain of Toads or Locust Swarm or something would be the best... or Firebomb. It won't be the best with Bears by the way.

    With huge %CC and burning dogs + big stinker + firebomb... things literally don't move. They just get stuck in their animations. But later on your pets get killed too easily to keep using them. Still, it's a cheesey mechanic that I'm sure will get nerfed in the future.
  • #99
    I'm guessing most of you don't know this, but the actual attribute ceiling for WD helms is a lot lower than normal helms. I didn't know this until I recently checked a max stat spreadsheet but I guess that explains why I could never find a suitable helm with mana regen on it that actually had decent stats.

    It's not just the main stats either, crit, MF, everything is lower. Main stats are nearly 50 points lower. Crit is a few % lower. Keep this in mind when going for a mana heavy build and loading up on mana regen items. You've giving up a lot of dps by choosing a WD helm. Offhand/Weapon is fine since you're just giving up an affix slot (which really only means it'll be a bit more expensive).

    TLDR: Beware going with a WD helm. Sadly, they are a bit gimped.
  • #100
    ^yes, they're great if you're on a budget with the way the economy is now, but the cap for crit on helms is 4.5% for ilv62, voodoo masks and wizard hats are no exception. Putting 5% crit or higher will automatically filter out anything below ilv62, leaving you with nothing if you're searching for masks.
    a shade of timelessness~
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