Shadow Power vs Wrath of the Berserker

  • #1
    I just compared Shadow Power with the barbarian spell Wrath of the Berserker.

    Here are the stats:

    Shadow power - 20 discipline cost - lasts 8 seconds
    30% ias

    Wrath of the Berserker - 50 fury cost - lasts 15 seconds
    45% ias
    20% dodge
    20% movement speed
    10% crit

    So Shadow Power requires 66% of all discpline, lasts for half the duration of Wrath of the Berserker and is worse in every possible way.

    Berserker requires 50% of all fury and is better in every aspect.

    Sure, fury is also required for barbarian offensive spells (while demon hunter has hatred), but I still find it oddly unbalanced on paper.
  • #2
    Shadow Power has no cooldown. WotB used to have 2 minutes cooldown. New info reveals it doesn't have a cooldown anymore but don't trust the actual values because they are all place holders and even bugged sometimes.

    Hardly WotB will exist without a considerable cooldown on it.
    "In time the hissing of her sanity
    Faded out her voice and soiled her name
    And like marked pages in a diary
    Everything seemed clean that is unstained
    The incoherent talk of ordinary days
    Why would we really need to live?
    Decide what is clear and what's within a haze
    What you should take and what to give" - Opeth
  • #3
    According to the spell calculator is has no current cooldown.

    What are we to discuss if we're not discussing current material?
  • #4
    Quote from Sumsarr

    According to the spell calculator is has no current cooldown.

    What are we to discuss if we're not discussing current material?


    The intentions behind that material. Basically because all numbers are just place holders. They are far, far from final.

    This is why blizz should've not released that calculator and item database. People actually take this info seriously when they shouldn't.
    "In time the hissing of her sanity
    Faded out her voice and soiled her name
    And like marked pages in a diary
    Everything seemed clean that is unstained
    The incoherent talk of ordinary days
    Why would we really need to live?
    Decide what is clear and what's within a haze
    What you should take and what to give" - Opeth
  • #5
    while it doesnt actually have a cooldown at the moment on the skills page, if you check the barbarians passive skill Boon of Bul-Kathos, it reduces the cooldown on wrath of the berserker (as well at other skills) by 30 seconds. more than likely, WotB will indeed have a cooldown.

    with the nerf of shadow power from 60% weapon speed to 30%, i believe shadow power will remain without a cooldown, as its not a powerful enough ability to require one. to be honest, i thik they need to buff up shadow power a bit because at more than 2/3 your discipline, i dont think a flat 30% weapon speed matches up.

    but always keep in mind, no numbers are final, systems are still being changed, and abilities are still being worked on.
  • #6
    Why would you even compare two different skills from different classes, which got different resources. That's just stupid.

    Now if you say that WotB is alone imbalanced, then it may be true, but I am not sure honestly. 50% of fury, which you need to gain in the first place, is a lot actually. If you are going to sacrifice other good damage dealers just to keep WotB all the time, then it maybe be quite balanced.
    You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
  • #7
    Quote from Kblavkalash

    Why would you even compare two different skills from different classes, which got different resources. That's just stupid.

    Now if you say that WotB is alone imbalanced, then it may be true, but I am not sure honestly. 50% of fury, which you need to gain in the first place, is a lot actually. If you are going to sacrifice other good damage dealers just to keep WotB all the time, then it maybe be quite balanced.


    I agree... you can't exactly compare 2 separate classes like that. Both have different synergies and combos. For example, demon hunter has abilities to regain discipline fast.and doesn't have to be up in the thick of things....
  • #8
    Barbarian is a melee, need more power! :)

    Swedish Official Fansite www.Diablo3pvp.se

  • #9
    In the beta, WotB still has a cooldown when you look at the skill page. Guess we will see when game goes live.
  • #10
    Quote from Drachar

    In the beta, WotB still has a cooldown when you look at the skill page. Guess we will see when game goes live.


    I suppose that's just new useless tooltips, which no one can understand clearly.
    You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
  • #11
    Weirdest thing..advanced tooltip no cd..."special person" tooltips 120s cd :S
  • #12
    According to the patch 10 notes the spell no longer has any cooldown.

    New spell, quote from patch notes: "Wrath of the Berserker:
    Cost: 50 Fury / Enter a berserker rage which raises several attributes for 15 seconds. / Critical Hit: 10% / Attack Speed: 45% / Dodge Chance: 20% / Movement Speed: 20%
    "

    I've played diablo 2 pvp competitive and a ton of other strategy games such as heroes and newerth etc, and I know what I'm talking about when I'm stating something is REALLY unbalanced here. Either Shadow Power requires a buff or WotB a nerf.

    It doesn't matter if the two classes have different mechanics (one being range and agile while the other one is being melee and buff) since the two spells doesn't give hard stat boosts. They boost the heroes in percentage.

    For instance. If Demon Hunter had 100 health and had a talent which gave her an additional 20 health would be balanced to a barbarian with 500 health having a talent which boosted his health by 100. Why? Because they would have the same proportional boosts.

    As it is now the barbarian gets a HUGE boost better in every possible way. I guess it would be fair if the demon hunter was an overall stronger character than barbarian, because then the barbarian would allow himself to catch up or surpass the demon hunter in certain situations. I do, however, doubt that is the case. If the case was such, every barbarian would be forced to pick WotB in order to be able to compeat with the other classes and Blizzard stated time after time how they are promoting build diversity.

    The spells are unbalanced. If anyone care to disagree, please do. Tell me why I am wrong.

    Imagine having your two children eating candy. How fair would it be to them if you said:

    Hey, tommy, would you like to have an additional 30% candy? Oh, and amanda, do you want an additional 45% candy as well as 20% less homework, 20% less vegetables and 10% more money?

    How the fuck would that be fair? Proportional stats HAS to be proportional not only within the individual characters skill sets, but also between the different characters'.
  • #13
    You are not wrong, Sumsarr.

    But while the cost of SP is basically an utility cost, and makes nothing to hinder or penalize the use of DH hatred spenders, maintaining WoTB up will basically make the barbarian not be able to use (or barely use) any other fury spender.

    That said, they're not balanced, even much more if you think that the obsidian rune for SP is really good; but, since DH is a Dex main class, it will be surely hit by some kind of deminishing return. Instead, increased dodge% for the barbarian has much more impact.

    I think that no CD is a placeholder, and that the ability will have a 30ish second CD.
  • #14
    Quote from Sumsarr

    According to the patch 10 notes the spell no longer has any cooldown.

    New spell, quote from patch notes: "Wrath of the Berserker:
    Cost: 50 Fury / Enter a berserker rage which raises several attributes for 15 seconds. / Critical Hit: 10% / Attack Speed: 45% / Dodge Chance: 20% / Movement Speed: 20%
    "

    I've played diablo 2 pvp competitive and a ton of other strategy games such as heroes and newerth etc, and I know what I'm talking about when I'm stating something is REALLY unbalanced here. Either Shadow Power requires a buff or WotB a nerf.

    It doesn't matter if the two classes have different mechanics (one being range and agile while the other one is being melee and buff) since the two spells doesn't give hard stat boosts. They boost the heroes in percentage.

    For instance. If Demon Hunter had 100 health and had a talent which gave her an additional 20 health would be balanced to a barbarian with 500 health having a talent which boosted his health by 100. Why? Because they would have the same proportional boosts.

    As it is now the barbarian gets a HUGE boost better in every possible way. I guess it would be fair if the demon hunter was an overall stronger character than barbarian, because then the barbarian would allow himself to catch up or surpass the demon hunter in certain situations. I do, however, doubt that is the case. If the case was such, every barbarian would be forced to pick WotB in order to be able to compeat with the other classes and Blizzard stated time after time how they are promoting build diversity.

    The spells are unbalanced. If anyone care to disagree, please do. Tell me why I am wrong.

    Imagine having your two children eating candy. How fair would it be to them if you said:

    Hey, tommy, would you like to have an additional 30% candy? Oh, and amanda, do you want an additional 45% candy as well as 20% less homework, 20% less vegetables and 10% more money?

    How the fuck would that be fair? Proportional stats HAS to be proportional not only within the individual characters skill sets, but also between the different characters'.


    You cant talk about PvP balance, they already said spells will behave different in pve and pvp. Until you know how they behave in pvp shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

    ^from a jay wilson interview btw
    "...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
    for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
    shall be my brother..."
  • #15
    Quote from DenkaSaeba25

    You are not wrong, Sumsarr.

    But while the cost of SP is basically an utility cost, and makes nothing to hinder or penalize the use of DH hatred spenders, maintaining WoTB up will basically make the barbarian not be able to use (or barely use) any other fury spender.

    That said, they're not balanced, even much more if you think that the obsidian rune for SP is really good; but, since DH is a Dex main class, it will be surely hit by some kind of deminishing return. Instead, increased dodge% for the barbarian has much more impact.

    I think that no CD is a placeholder, and that the ability will have a 30ish second CD.


    I agree completely. I actually covered the hatred - disc aspect of shadow power in my OP: "Sure, fury is also required for barbarian offensive spells (while demon hunter has hatred), but I still find it oddly unbalanced on paper."

    Considering the fact that Shadow Power has way worse stats AND takes more proportional discipline than WotB required fury I think it is safe to say it's unbalanced either way. I really hope Blizzard adjusts this sooner rather than later.

    Quote from Mac_an_tSaoir
    You cant talk about PvP balance, they already said spells will behave different in pve and pvp. Until you know how they behave in pvp shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

    ^from a jay wilson interview btw


    First of all: dont act like a douche. Especially not when you're not paying attention, it makes you look like an idiot.

    When did I ever mention PVP? I'm refering to PVE and all my statements have been built upon assumptions regarding PVE.
  • #16
    WotB have a cooldown. To begin with, the patch notes with skill changes are not even official (they are datamined). Theres possible mistakes in those notes.

    In game WotB have a cooldown.
    Theres a passive skill that reduces it's cooldown.
    Theres other errors in the calculator - like 0 fury cost whirlwind. For a matter of balance, don't take the present value too seriously, please. Those numbers are constantly twinked.
    "In time the hissing of her sanity
    Faded out her voice and soiled her name
    And like marked pages in a diary
    Everything seemed clean that is unstained
    The incoherent talk of ordinary days
    Why would we really need to live?
    Decide what is clear and what's within a haze
    What you should take and what to give" - Opeth
  • #17
    "I've played diablo 2 pvp competitive and a ton of other strategy games such as heroes and newerth etc, and I know what I'm talking about when I'm stating something is REALLY unbalanced here. Either Shadow Power requires a buff or WotB a nerf."

    ^ full derp

    You state your gaming "expertise" is PvP, then talk about balance.
    "...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
    for he to-day that sheds his blood with me
    shall be my brother..."
  • #18
    Unless you're a game designer you kno nothing about balance.
    "In time the hissing of her sanity
    Faded out her voice and soiled her name
    And like marked pages in a diary
    Everything seemed clean that is unstained
    The incoherent talk of ordinary days
    Why would we really need to live?
    Decide what is clear and what's within a haze
    What you should take and what to give" - Opeth
  • #19
    Quote from Mac_an_tSaoir

    "I've played diablo 2 pvp competitive and a ton of other strategy games such as heroes and newerth etc, and I know what I'm talking about when I'm stating something is REALLY unbalanced here. Either Shadow Power requires a buff or WotB a nerf."

    ^ full derp


    You've obviously never compeated in Diablo 2 since you are not aware that the competitions are far from always are directly PVP. There were Iron man and ladder contests etc.

    Stop behaving like an idiot.

    Quote from italofoca

    Unless you're a game designer you kno nothing about balance.


    This is a matter of math.

    Even so, the game designers rarely are good at balancing their games. They make wonderful worlds, but rarely balanced ones.

    For instance, it took the game designers more than a year to release that wind fury could proc on wind fury in world of warcraft and release a chain reaction. They also did not realise a paladin could one shot onyxia at level 60. The community on the other hand, noticed these problems within the first week of release.

    If I'm wrong in my math somewhere or missing out a valid point, please raise it. As it is now you're no smarter than christians saying "if you're not god, you cannot criticise his work."
  • #20
    Quote from italofoca

    WotB have a cooldown. To begin with, the patch notes with skill changes are not even official (they are datamined). Theres possible mistakes in those notes.

    In game WotB have a cooldown.
    Theres a passive skill that reduces it's cooldown.
    Theres other errors in the calculator - like 0 fury cost whirlwind. For a matter of balance, don't take the present value too seriously, please. Those numbers are constantly twinked.


    Since the passive was not deleted i guess we still have a CD. But we can't actually know if it in the actual patch has a CD, since we can't use the ability in the beta.
    That said, those numbers are to be taken with a grain of salt... the ability now it's just too good to be true.
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